Imlay in November

[teedit]

I'm thinking of taking a group of 3 through Imlay the first part of November. Is a 5mm wetsuit enough for such a late date or is a drysuit recommended? We only have 1 day for this. Can a fairly competent group do it in a day? I assume with all of the rain recently the potholes will be full? I saw the candition for Sep 15 and looks like they were full.

[Brian in SLC]

Full Imlay or sneak? Depends on how fast and competent you really are. Sneak would be doable by most fit and competent parties, I'd think. Early start for sure. Start at 4am. Do the approach in the dark. Gives you the most chance for finishing at least the last rappel in the daylight.

First part of November? Could be pretty chilly. Depends on your cold water tolerance. I'd probably recommend a dry suit or a warmer wetsuit not knowing.

Conditions could change a bunch by November.

[Iceaxe]

Can a fairly competent group do it in a day?

I keep prretty detailed records of times..... and my 2 cents....

12 hours trailhead to trailhead is the absolute best time a skilled group of four can do the Imlay Sneak Route on their first time through.

Again... That 12 hours is BEST time for a skilled group having no prior experiance in the slot.... all times go up from the 12 hour starting point.... plan accordingly...


Imlay Canyon Route Description (http://climb-utah.com/Zion/imlay1.htm) - Sneak and Peak option

59457

[Kuya]

I have a buddy who did this route with a group of 3 and it took them 28 hours to do full Imlay. :eek2: It was their first time through.

They were cold most of the time. Go prepared.

[Scott P]

Even if you were fast and had warm gear, there is no way I'd try it in November without bivi gear. November days are very short. The chances that you will be caught in the dark in Imlay are very high in November, especially if you haven't done it. Even hiking out the Narrows is suprisingly difficult in the dark.

At least bring bivi gear and be prepared to spend the night, even if it works out that you don't have to. November might be reasonable for a very well prepared group, but I'd seriously consider the possibility of having to spend the night.

As far as conditions go, there is no way to say that just because September 15 was full of water that November will still be.

[Brian in SLC]

At least bring bivi gear and be prepared to spend the night...

How's that go? "If you bring bivy gear, you will use it."

I didn't bring bivy gear when I did it in the winter. Be prepared to keep moving, and, keep that mindset. Otherwise, don't try it. IMHO.

[Iceaxe]

How's that go? "If you bring bivy gear, you will use it."

I didn't bring bivy gear when I did it in the winter. Be prepared to keep moving, and, keep that mindset. Otherwise, don't try it. IMHO.

x2

[Scott P]

How's that go? "If you bring bivy gear, you will use it."

Something like that. I thought it was "If you prepare for a bivy, you will".

I still would at least assume the possibility of it though. I've only had one unplanned bivy and it was in November. I'm sure glad I had emergency gear (fire starter, emergency sack). An emergency bivy weighs a few ounces. Of course I don't know how well either items will do you in a wet canyon and with a wetsuit. Still, if you aren't prepared to spend the night, or consider it to be a possibility, personally I wouldn't try it in November (I don't even know if it's a good idea at all to try a one day descent in November if you haven't already done it).


I didn't bring bivy gear when I did it in the winter. Be prepared to keep moving, and, keep that mindset.

Had you already done the route though, or was it your first time through? Also, how long did it take?

[ratagonia]

The best bivy gear is plenty of food and good headlamps.

Just not much daylight this time of year. Yeah, it helps a lot to know the canyon reasonably well, so you can pace yourself well.

But certainly possible:

http://www.zionadventures.com/ZBlog/znp/descending-imlay-canyon-on-christmas-day/

Tom

[ratagonia]

Even if you were fast and had warm gear, there is no way I'd try it in November without bivi gear. November days are very short. The chances that you will be caught in the dark in Imlay are very high in November, especially if you haven't done it. Even hiking out the Narrows is suprisingly difficult in the dark.

At least bring bivi gear and be prepared to spend the night, even if it works out that you don't have to. November might be reasonable for a very well prepared group, but I'd seriously consider the possibility of having to spend the night.

As far as conditions go, there is no way to say that just because September 15 was full of water that November will still be.

I'm not sure why it getting dark is an issue. That's why God made headlamps.

The approach (sneak route) could be hard to sniff out in the dark. In summer, we usually plan leaving the trail right at first light.

I find walking out the Narrows by headlamp to be pretty easy - the light penetrates the water and you can actually see the rocks down there. YMMV.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Had you already done the route though, or was it your first time through? Also, how long did it take?

First time was summer of 1999 for full Imlay. Second was the winter descent in 2002 via the Sneak route. Honestly didn't remember the route that well but I had some prior notes. Don't recall referring to them, we just sorta blasted through.

6am to 6pm.

We coulda started at least an hour or more earlier. My notes say we didn't suit up until 9:30am. I'd start at 4am if were me. Gives a few hours of margin against dark.

Yeah, headlamp. Keep moving. If it were cold, and, your wetsuit was not warm enough...that'd be bad. Bivy gear or not.

You're right. Scott, emergency blanket and a lighter/matches for a fire don't weigh much, but, if you wear a wetsuit, you'll need to bail out of that into some pretty warm clothes. All that extra stuff starts addin' up and next thing you know, that heavy pack is slowing you down.

I don't think I'm particularly fast. Reasonable skills (debatable). First time I did a number of canyons in Zion I soloed them, so...

If you play well together, are fit, know you need to move and have some reasonable turn around times if you're moving slow, and are fairly saavy, its pretty doable with an early start. My bet is most folks aren't the combo of those things to make it work though. Hard to judge without knowing.

Not much daylight, fairly cold at night and maybe in the day too...I dunno.

Fairly no brainer approach in the dark on the trail. And, really, seems fairly reasonable to head to the pass above the start of the canyon drainage. In early morning light, a descent into the canyon would be ok, I'd think.

Beauty of a dry suit that doesn't leak (ha!), is your clothes should be fairly dry, so, if you do need to stop and spend the night, you'd have that working for ya.

Much more risk. Less margin. Has to be acceptable. If you haven't done this type of stuff for awhile, then...I dunno. Maybe do some shorter stuff and see how your times go. It'll be there.

[Scott P]

If you play well together, are fit, know you need to move and have some reasonable turn around times if you're moving slow, and are fairly saavy, its pretty doable with an early start. My bet is most folks aren't the combo of those things to make it work though. Hard to judge without knowing.

Yes, doable by a strong group and it's hard to judge without knowing. Still, if you haven't done the route before, trying it for your first time ever, in November does raise the risk factor. Since we don't know anything about the poster (and no offense is meant by this) beyond the claim of "fairly competent group", it would be hard to recommend it for November. In June, or if the poster would have completed the route before, or if we knew more about him/her, the answer would be different.

To me (and I really do mean no offense by this), the comment of "I assume with all of the rain recently the potholes will be full? I saw the candition for Sep 15 and looks like they were full." is an immediate red flag and indicates (to me) that the poster may have not been doing canyons for that long. Maybe it's a bad assumption and mean of me to say it (even though it's not meant to be mean), but it is a red flag.

We've all got in over our heads at times (some of us several times), but I would hate to have someone get hurt.

[teedit]

Thanks for all the great info. I haven't done Imlay before but have done other stuff in Zions including Kolob, Right fork (including the pothole section) among others. A correction to the full pothole comment - with all the rain the potholes are full now. Of course there has to be similar rainfall from now to November for them to remain full. Here's another question. What percentage of draining of potholes occurs due to seepage through the sandstone versus evaporation? I'm assuming that in some of these dark canyons there isn't much sunlight or heat to evaporate the water so I'm leaning to more water seeping through the stone. However, even a wet rag in the bottom of a canyon would dry out within a day so there must be some evaporation going on.

[Brian in SLC]

31.6%

[ratagonia]

14.3%








Brian and I tend to disagree on all important issues.

T

[teedit]

Hmmm, I'll guess I'll take the standard deviation of these two and apply the Student t-stat test to find out if there is statistical difference. If not I'll take the mean, if so I'm back to where I started...

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

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[Bluff-Canyoneer]

Hmmm, I'll guess I'll take the standard deviation of these two and apply the Student t-stat test to find out if there is statistical difference. If not I'll take the mean, if so I'm back to where I started...

Not enough degrees of freedom!


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[ratagonia]

But seriously...

It is unpredictable. Not much seeps through the stone, but the level can drop significantly even now when the temperatures are moderate to low. Brian and I did it in February once (separate trips, a week apart) and were very surprised to find it quite low on water. I think maybe there is a downcanyon breeze at various time, which takes water away.

So - NEVER count on Imlay being full. Always have tools, energy and time available for engineering pothole escapes. Period. Anything else is irresponsible.

Tom

[rick t]

First time Imlayers in November?
Bad idea. period.
It will still be there next year.

rick t

[oldno7]

First time Imlayers in November?
Bad idea. period.
It will still be there next year.

rick t

I shudder to do this---but I agree with Rick.

Canyon experience vs. keeper pothole experience is huge.

The last group I went through with were quite competent but when we got into the meat of the canyon, they were glad to have help and conceded that they might not have been able to conquer some of these obstacles with their experience level.

Don't underestimate the canyon!!!

Or more importantly, over estimate your ability!!!

[ratagonia]

I shudder to do this---but I agree with Rick.

Canyon experience vs. keeper pothole experience is huge.

The last group I went through with were quite competent but when we got into the meat of the canyon, they were glad to have help and conceded that they might not have been able to conquer some of these obstacles with their experience level.

Don't underestimate the canyon!!!

Or more importantly, over estimate your ability!!!

Similarly, there must be someway I can disagree with Kurt on this...

I keep looking, but, ... can't.... find.... it....

Yeah what he said.

Tom

[Spidey]

I keep prretty detailed records of times..... and my 2 cents....

12 hours trailhead to trailhead is the absolute best time a skilled group of four can do the Imlay Sneak Route on their first time through.

Again... That 12 hours is BEST time for a skilled group having no prior experiance in the slot.... all times go up from the 12 hour starting point.... plan accordingly...


Imlay Canyon Route Description (http://climb-utah.com/Zion/imlay1.htm) - Sneak and Peak option

59457
Our first time through Imlay my group of 6 did the sneak route in 10 hours. So there is some variance in that 12 hour time frame.

[ratagonia]

Our first time through Imlay my group of 6 did the sneak route in 10 hours. So there is some variance in that 12 hour time frame.

Spidey Power!!!

T