Canyon Safety Article

[mtn_dude]

Hey everyone,

I'm writing a news article about canyon safety, in response to several people now worrried about going out canyoneering with the death in Zion, and I'm wondering about classes and other resources that people could sign up for. I know of the ACA courses but don't know of other ones or contacts for them.

[Slot Machine]

If Spidey ever logged in, he would probably promote his courses.

I'll do it this time... :haha:

http://darkhorseleadership.com/ (http://darkhorseleadership.com/)

[Deathcricket]

Maybe it's too early to pick apart the person that died faults? But this isn't rocket science. 2 old people alone out in the wilderness is just begging for hardships. But I don't think classes should be the focus of your article. Let's also not forget these people took classes of some sort. Maybe some simple safety tips like "Have a hiking partner who can actually assist you if things go bad". And no your 60ish wife who gets lost doesn't count. One middle aged person in this scenario and things would have went wayyyyy different IMO.

Even a simple twisted ankle can turn a normal hike into a life or death situation real fast for an elderly person, right?

[Iceaxe]

I'm not sure how much age is an issue... some of the more talented canyoneers I know are 60ish. I believe general health is more of an issue in the outdoors then age. I know a couple 25 y/o's that would have a heart attack and die hiking Angels Landing from the fat clogging their heart.

Nothing wrong with schooling.... but I've always maintained "commonsense" is your biggest safety net in the outdoors....

And speaking of commonsense.... anyone else notice its not as common as you would think?

:cool2:

[Brian in SLC]

Yeah, Sonny, give it up! And, wasn't there a recent CB sighting? JA? SA? Folks in their 60's should just stay at home on the couch? Poppycock.

Hell, 60's is now "middle aged" and most I know that recreate do it with a fair bit more saavy than their younger counterparts! Hardly frickin' "elderly"...

My bet is if most Deathcricket aged folks were hanging upside down in the air by their ankle they'd be stuck too. Deathcricket included. Yeah, gauntlet is thrown! And, your public demands photo's!

Romanoooooooo!

[Deathcricket]

My bet is if most Deathcricket aged folks were hanging upside down in the air by their ankle they'd be stuck too. Deathcricket included. Yeah, gauntlet is thrown! And, your public demands photo's!

Romanoooooooo!

One ankle or two? :naughty:

I kinda wrote it wrong and am perhaps being misunderstood. I meant replace his 60 year old wife with a middle aged person or at least someone competent who could help the guy out when he got in trouble and only hanging 5 feet off the ground. Or heck 2 old people to work together. The main point I am trying to make is hike with someone who can provide assistance if you get in trouble. Not wander off, get lost and leave you at the mercy of F-ing mother nature. I think that is where the fault lies. The buddy system!

Heck, even tie the knife to a long stick and cut the harness off. I dunno..........

[Brian in SLC]

Canyonman!

[Mountaineer]

But I don't think classes should be the focus of your article. Let's also not forget these people took classes of some sort.

I strongly agree. Classes can help to get the best techniques. But training will never substitute for a) practice by leading b) practice by following c) common sense d) staying calm to think clearly in stressful situations. Practice. Practice. Knowing how to avoid/get out of a problem is not enough, as it is likely you will forget it during the stress event (even if you took the class the day before). Experience and training does not equal technical competence. And after all that, the risks will never shrink to zero.

[Stray]

If new, aspiring canyoneers cannot find an experienced person to go with (which is hard when you live out of state...much less out of the country), maybe we should let them hire someone.

[Iceaxe]

maybe we should let them hire someone.

Because of the permit system I doubt you will find a lot of support for commercial guiding. Privateer's do not want to compete with commercial guides for the limited number of permits.


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[Deathcricket]

Because of the permit system I doubt you will find a lot of support for commercial guiding. Privateer's do not want to compete with commercial guides for the limited number of permits.


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A person in our group answered a craig's list ad a couple weeks ago. It was an elderly gentleman who needed an escort up Angel's Landing. He ended up taking so long our guide had to rush ahead and catch the last Zion bus, then drive the car back up to grab him. I don't think any money was exchanged, but he did buy our guide a really nice backpack as a "thank you" (which they never asked for). There are pretty clever ways around the system. How many of us on this board would just join a subway group open invitation for the hell of it? Maybe buy me dinner at Oscars and a beer afterwards, done.

Anyways, just saying it's easier and more common than you think. You don't need a professional guide and pay them some cash service fee, keep it on the down-lo, just bring someone who maybe knows the route (done it before) and is more experienced than you, everyone is happy.

[Iceaxe]

Anyways, just saying it's easier and more common than you think. You don't need a professional guide and pay them some cash service fee, keep it on the down-lo, just bring someone who maybe knows the route (done it before) and is more experienced than you, everyone is happy.


I agree with this approach.... I like many others have taken litterly hundreds of noob's down Zion slots. Out of state beer, picking up the permits, willing to carry the ropes, providing half the shuttle, buying diiner all work well when searching for a non-commercial guide.

[Iceaxe]

I want to know canyon safety how help me as well.

This post reads like you are taking with a mouth full of muffins.... LOL

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[2065toyota]

"Just think how stupid the average person is then realize half the people are stupider than that". Not trying to be rude but its a fact of life. That being said, taking new people to explore canyons and seeing their highs and lows of emotions is almost as fun as experiencing as a new canyon again. I have never turned anyone down from joining us an all are welcome. We have done 28 canyons this summer with 58 different people and have enjoye every minute of it

[hank moon]

"Just think how stupid the average person is then realize half the people are stupider than that". Not trying to be rude but its a fact of life.

Smart people don't think others are stupid (http://sivers.org/ss)

2012-05-16
[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Georgia]The woman seemed to be making some pretty good points, until she stopped with,

[2065toyota]

Common sense cannot be taught. You either have it or you don't. You can take classes and learn things and that is a huge help but still won't replace it

[2065toyota]

An this had nothin to do with the subway incident. I grieve also for the loss of any life no matter what the cause.

[Iceaxe]

[QUOTE=hank moon;511726]So if you decide someone is stupid, it means you

[hank moon]

Common sense cannot be taught. You either have it or you don't. You can take classes and learn things and that is a huge help but still won't replace it

I'm not clear on what you are saying - can you elaborate? In your view, what exactly is common sense? And, can it not be learned and developed as other abilities? Or are you saying it's like a gift or blessing (grace O' God category)?

[2065toyota]

Skills can be taught. Common sense, well if you have to ask. Nevermind

[mtn_dude]

Skills can be taught. Common sense, well if you have to ask. Nevermind

I feel that as skills are learned, common sense increases. Take this subway incident for example; had this man learned the skill of ascending, common sense would've told him to simply ascend to get his device unjammed. But since he didn't have that skill set his common sense idea was to cut his harness off when stuck. Common sense is relative to ones experience and knowledge/skill sets.
Having been canyoneering for awhile, common sense now tells me to use a lanyard to clip into an anchor while rigging it because stuff just happens, like a ledge fell out from under me at the last rap in Pine Creek. Luckily I was being led by someone who knew more and had me clipped in before this happened. But while I was still a noob I felt that clipping into an anchor to just get it rigged or to get my rap device ready was a waste of time and unimportant.
Common sense, or what most of us would do for safety, comes from experience; even though we were probably taught from the beginning those safeties.

[mtn_dude]

And I ain't saying that classes will be a focus but more they could be additional places readers could look to learn before deciding, "Hey canyoneering is really cool! Let's GO!"
How could someone who is wanting to go canyoneering in Zion find someone willing to take them down? I know that when I get a permit i always open it up to my friends on Facebook but that only reaches my Facebook friends. Thousands of people each day go to Zion looking for a canyon experience but they aren't my friend so they can't get hooked up with me. How can they experience it? How can they find the more competant canyoneer?

[Mountaineer]

Common sense:Sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts.
For some, skills in judgement come naturally and quickly. For others...well, I believe if those in this category first acknowledge they have a lack of judgement, then practice toward improvement, it is possible to gain a baseline competency. A bit of humility can help.

[Mountaineer]

How can they find the more competant canyoneer?

Bogley. Yahoo. Rendezvous....

[2065toyota]

That doesn't mean you learned common sense. You learned a skill or a habit. Common sense is when you hook up without being told because your "common sense" says your standing next to cliff. Maybe I should clip in because something might happen. Bogley is where you find partners. There are plenty of people on here willing to go with you or let you tag along. PM me your cell number and I will text you next time we have openings

[mtn_dude]

I think we're looking at common sense different, because how i see what you're saying about common sense is the same as why the mind screams out "What the Hell are you doing, that's a cliff you can't go over that!" the first time you go to rappel. Naturally man wasn't made to go over cliffs but as we learn and try it out we find that, "Oh this is safe and really fun!"
I'll gladly go with ya, but I know what I'm doing out there so this isn't about me finding people to go with. I've used bogley and the ACA's site to find people to go with or take. I'm just looking for other resources people could use.
I know of several hundreds of people in Cedar that want to go out and see the canyons that they see pics of, or hear of (127 hours and this subway incident), and some (who's common sense doesn't work well) would just go...then we hear about them later in a press release from Zion, etc.

[hank moon]

Skills can be taught. Common sense, well if you have to ask. Nevermind

I think it's an interesting question b/c many use the phrase "common sense" and claim it as a faculty, yet few are able to say what it is or how they acquired it. So, when I see vague and unsubstantial talk about so-called "common sense," it gets my radar twirlin'.