Canyoneering death in the Subway

[mtthwlw]

Anyone out ther have information about a possible death in the Subway?

[Slot Machine]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54929798-78/park-rappelling-subway-zion.html.csp

Wow. :eek2: Foot caught?

My condolences to all involved.

[MattLeonard]

We were there today, saw the body, and passed SAR on their way in. On the final rappell a guy used logs over a waterfall rather than the bolts. SAR told us his autoblock got caught in his descender, and he was stuck. He apparently tried to cut himself out of his harness, inverting himself in the process and got his legs stuck (on leg loops?) His partner was on the ground but unable to help so they went for help but couldn't figure out how to exit the canyon in the looming darkness. The partner contacted SAR this morning, and body recovery is happening tomorrow via long-line. Lots of parties passed the body today (us included) - pretty somber.

Unclear if the guy died from being inverted in his harness overnight, harness-induced pathology, or exposure from a cascading icy waterfall. He had a helmet, and he didn't appear close enough to a wall for trauma to be a factor.

I'm sure a more official incident report will be out soon - so lets try to hold judgement and speculation.

[oldno7]

Terribly sad

[Iceaxe]

Wow...

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[blueeyes]

Incredibly sad. My condolences to his family and others involved.

[Deathcricket]

We were there today, saw the body, and passed SAR on their way in. On the final rappell a guy used logs over a waterfall rather than the bolts. SAR told us his autoblock got caught in his descender, and he was stuck. He apparently tried to cut himself out of his harness, inverting himself in the process and got his legs stuck (on leg loops?) His partner was on the ground but unable to help so they went for help but couldn't figure out how to exit the canyon in the looming darkness. The partner contacted SAR this morning, and body recovery is happening tomorrow via long-line. Lots of parties passed the body today (us included) - pretty somber.

Unclear if the guy died from being inverted in his harness overnight, harness-induced pathology, or exposure from a cascading icy waterfall. He had a helmet, and he didn't appear close enough to a wall for trauma to be a factor.

I'm sure a more official incident report will be out soon - so lets try to hold judgement and speculation.

Good info, thanks for the post. I'm still trying to recover from the last time I saw a dead body. Course it was a buddie who blew his brains out, but I'm sure it was still traumatic seeing that for you too. Keep a close eye on yourself and if you start feeling crappy, get help. It sneaks up on ya.

[Mountaineer]

Tragic. My heart goes out to the family.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Tragic. My heart goes out to the family.


X2

[mtthwlw]

So very sad. Thank you for the information. I had heard only that it had happened. Prayers and condolences for the victim his partner and the families.

[Felicia]

Incredibly sad. My condolences to his family and others involved.

X2

:-(

[Iceaxe]

Man dies after spending night upside down in Zion Subway by McKenzie Romero

ZION NATIONAL PARK

[Bootboy]

That anchor wasnt there 2 weeks ago. I rigged that rappel off the logs 2 weeks ago. We placed a new log and put brand new webbing on it. I don't necessarily feel responsible but it hits close to home.
Damn.

[Iceaxe]

I was wondering who placed the new log.

I'm really curious why the guy couldn't get free. Also wonder why the partner didn't climb back to the top and help. Currently there is a log between the waterfall and the bolted anchors that allows easy access to the upper subway from the lower subway.

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[Bootboy]

That was my log. My friend and I dragged it from about 20' away a week after the big flash. It was a fun rap right next to the falls and we joked about how we were building a sucker anchor. Makes me sick to think about it...

[Sombeech]

Dang, anybody have a pic of this spot?

[Bootboy]

I wish I did. It's at the very last waterfall that most people bypass for the bolts 30 yards down canyon on the left. Right above all the bottom-up hikers. There is a big crack that runs perpendicular above the slot below and the waterfall come in from the canyon right side of the T. When rappelling, the waterfall is just a few feet away and you can put your feet in it or swing into it one you're a couple feet down the rope. Nice rap if you ask me

[Jolly Green]

I think adding the additional log above the existing log actually made it a little easier to get on rope relative to what it was before. With that being said, I can see how anyone unfamiliar with starting rappels at your feet could struggle and have the rope slip and get the autoblock caught. Unfortunately I suppose it also invites people who probably shouldn't be on a rappel like that to try it. Sad situation.

[Bootboy]

Canyons themselves invite people who shouldn't be there...

[blueeyes]

I was wondering who placed the new log.

I'm really curious why the guy couldn't get free. Also wonder why the partner didn't climb back to the top and help. Currently there is a log between the waterfall and the bolted anchors that allows easy access to the upper subway from the lower subway.

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That log is no longer there. I will post a picture later.

[Byron]

I'll bet it was hypothermia that got him. If his friend didn't get a call in until nearly noon, he must have followed the creek all the way to the road? He missed the Right Fork exit, too...easy to do in the dark, I guess.

I wouldn't have left. I would have stayed there all night with him. But then again, I'm a really good climber and I would have figured a way to get him off of that thing. He had a knife? They panicked or just made a bad decision, perhaps figuring help would be available in a short time...Jeez, that's tough.

I always carry my little 15M hand line, wherever I go. That might have saved the day.

[jman]

"...Park officials say this is the first death in the Subway in recent years, though rescues are frequent."

I have heard that there have been other fatalities here, but can someone provide any details on the previous one(s)? Just curious. Thanks.

[Iceaxe]

That log is no longer there. I will post a picture later.

Unless the log was washed out in the past week it is still there. The original log washed out earlier this year and bootie replaced it with anther.

The Subway video I posted last week shows the new log. But in the video my family is shown walking across the log to reach the bolted anchors. The video also shows the waterfall as we swam back to the waterfall room, but that is hard to see as it is so dark.

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[Scott P]

I have heard that there have been other fatalities here, but can someone provide any details on the previous one(s)? Just curious. Thanks

The only one I can think of is when a tree that someone was rapping off pulled out of the ground. I think it was in Russell Gulch rather than the Subway though?

[Iceaxe]

I have heard that there have been other fatalities here, but can someone provide any details on the previous one(s)? Just curious. Thanks.

About 15 years ago a guy died when his rappel anchor failed. The anchor was a small bush that pulled out of the ground. I have the NPS morning report on that accident, but its on my computer and I'm out of the office today.

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[ratagonia]

About 15 years ago a guy died when his rappel anchor failed. The anchor was a small bush that pulled out of the ground. I have the NPS morning report on that accident, but its on my computer and I'm out of the office today.

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1992.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/history/mr1992.htm

Tom

[jman]

Thanks Tom and Shane.

That's too bad for David Bryant as well... :(

It's interesting in that SAR to see that Bryant "still had a pulse at the time, doctors soon pronounced him dead". I wonder if today's technology could of saved the guy. Anyways...back to topic...

[Iceaxe]

Dang, anybody have a pic of this spot?

The accident happened at the 3:00 mark of the video. We walked across the logs to reach the bolted anchors. If you look close you can see the sling on the log that they probably rappeled from.

The 3:25 mark of the video is the waterfall from below. This is where he would have ended up hanging. The video doesn't show it very well but there is a pretty good flow of water at this point.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyLo5BrmzcE

[Iceaxe]

Man dies after hanging by foot overnight in Zion slot canyon
Subway excursion tragedy

[blueeyes]

Unless the log was washed out in the past week it is still there. The original log washed out earlier this year and bootie replaced it with anther.

The Subway video I posted last week shows the new log. But in the video my family is shown walking across the log to reach the bolted anchors. The video also shows the waterfall as we swam back to the waterfall room, but that is hard to see as it is so dark.

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I see. Yeah last time we were in there was the first of Aug and the log was gone. Also I was thinking of the log that was slightly outside of the waterfall room.

[Kuya]

OH My! This is so sad. Things like this really make me ponder on how I do things and manage groups in canyons.

[reverse_dyno]

From a rock climber’s perspective if your belay device gets jammed, you would rig a prussic ascending system and unweight the rappel device. Once it is unweighted you can normally free the obstruction. If you cannot free the device, you can use the ascending system to descend the rope.

If you are doing the standard two strand rappel, the new problem is getting your rope back since the rappel device has effectively locked the two strands together.

You only ever cut the rope in an emergency situation. When you rock climb the rope is your life line.

[price1869]

Is this the spot?
http://i.imgur.com/iZblj.jpg

Granted, that picture is from 2005, and I haven't been back through subways since, but the if i remember correctly, the anchors are just down and to the side of that, and it's easily down climbable.

[mzamp]

Very Sad!
I would never pass jusgement on anyone without first hand knowledge of the incident, but if there is a lesson-learned to be had here I would certainly like to know. Learning is a continuous process...

- I do not see how the log had any play in the accident.



"The partner went for help, but was unfamiliar with the exit route and was caught by darkness."
- This is often my worry. As the most experience person in my set of canyoneering friends I am often the one most at risk. On questionable anchors I will back it up with a deadman or if there isn't an anchor I will be the downclimber (last man at risk). I have been teaching them navigation skills and encourage them to participate, but I have been doing it for so long everyone gets lazy and relies on my skills.

[dinzy]

Very sad indeed. Under the realm of learning from these accidents, another very quick and easy method for freeing a stuck rappel device (be it stuck with an autoblock or long hair), is to simply bend one leg so your knee is in your chest, then reach down and wrap the rope around the foot of your bent leg about three times and then stand up on that leg. That usually releases enough tension from the rope to clear the stuck device.

[erial]

update to story

Man, 74, dies after hanging by foot overnight in Zion NP canyon Subway excursion tragedy

[Steevo]

Wow, 74. As a physician, I would caution even my healthiest 70 year old patients about this sport. I gotta give the guy props for simply being our there at that age. I hope he is remembered well and passed doing the adventuresome things he loved.

[Brian in SLC]

Oh, what an awful situation.

So sorry this happened.

I'm sure there's plenty of potential lessons to be learned here, but...how sad.

Pretty grim stuff...my condolences to friends and family.

[Deathcricket]

74!!!!!!

I hope I'm still out rocking canyons at that age.

[m cabourne]

Some more information http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/man-dies-hanging-upside-utahs-zion-park-17280799#.UFukMBjlGHl Sad news indeed. Condolences to his family and friends.

[Felicia]

Thank you to all persons involved in the SAR; I'm sure this has been a tough couple of days.

[shagdeuce]

What a nightmare for everyone involved. So sad.

[Iceaxe]

Man Dies Hanging Upside Down at Utah's Zion Park

By PAUL FOY Associated Press
SALT LAKE CITY September 20, 2012 (AP)

A 74-year-old man was found dead after spending a night hanging upside down on his climbing ropes at Zion National Park, the park superintendent said Thursday.

Yoshio Hosobuchi was making a rappel in the Subway, a popular and demanding canyoneering route about 250 miles south of Salt Lake City.

His 61-year-old wife was unable to free the man, who was found hanging Wednesday over a waterfall, Park Superintendent Jock Whitworth said.

Hosobuchi was from Novato, Calif., and had no experience navigating the Subway. He was caught about midway in a narrow 9-mile chasm with fast-moving cold water.

His wife hiked out after some difficulty Wednesday to alert rangers, who had to wait until early Thursday to recover his body with a helicopter.

It was the first death of a hiker in the Subway in many years

[Iceaxe]

Man, 74, dies after hanging by foot overnight in Zion NP canyon
Tragedy

[erial]

This 74 year old gentleman from Novato may be an award winning neurosurgeon who once treated Terry Schiavo.

[Bootboy]

Is this the spot?
http://i.imgur.com/iZblj.jpg

Granted, that picture is from 2005, and I haven't been back through subways since, but the if i remember correctly, the anchors are just down and to the side of that, and it's easily down climbable.

That's it. The log in the pic isn't there now but there is a shorter one at the head of that slot with my sling on it.

[spinesnaper]

Very sad occurrence in a place we all love so much. Life is finite and our time in the wilderness is precious.

Ken

[mtn_dude]

His repelling device jammed, possibly because of a knot, and he wound up upside down, his hands about five feet above the ground.

His wife, who had earlier managed to climb down to the canyon floor, tried to help him, but couldn’t.

That's just horrifying! I feel terrible for the wife.

[Stray]

As I study this accident, I am saddened and frustrated.

I was down in the Subway on the September 4 with my wife, a canyoneering friend and several beginners. When I told this story to my wife, she cried.

I am frustrated because this was completely avoidable: The rap off the log should not have been left. The subway does NOT require rappelling (unless you include Das Boot). None of my group rapped. At the final "mandatory" rap, I was providing a handline for my beginners when suddenly a group of experienced, irresponsible canyoneers showed up and proceeded to "build" the deadly anchor by throwing a log into the pool below and setup a rap off the other log in the waterfall.

Many inexperienced people do this canyon, rapping off a log is difficult, rapping in a waterfall is difficult. If you must get your trills in a "beginner" canyon, please climb back up and clean up after yourself.

[Brian in SLC]

Maybe not the time for self righteous indignation?

[Iceaxe]

The outdoors is a big playground that caters to a wide range of skill levels. I would hate to see everything dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. I believe you should be responsible for your own safety. If you want thrills with no risk perhaps Disneyland is a better vacation destination.

[deathtointernet]

I deeply disagree with the idea that this is somehow the fault of the canyoneer who built the anchor. Is the Subway an easy canyon? Yes, it absolutely can be, depending on your skill level. But I think the idea that there is such a thing as a 'beginner canyon' is deceptive. By their very natures canyons are dangerous... these are not places people were ever meant to visit. That we do so anyway requires us to accept a certain responsibility for our safety and indeed our lives. I understand that using judgement is one of the most difficult skills to learn, but it is without a doubt the single most important skill in canyoneering. An anchor doesn't have to be used because it's there. A path doesn't have to be followed because others went that way. We all have to decide for ourselves what we can do safely. If we cannot do that, then we have no business being in these canyons. Get more experience in escapable, non-technical routes, get more formal training, or go under the leadership of someone experienced.

That said, I wasn't there, I don't know all the details of what happened. Was this a bad judgement call? Was this just some freak accident? Likely a combination of the two, I suppose, but I don't know. It is a tragedy, and my heart goes out to the family members.

[Bootboy]

As I study this accident, I am saddened and frustrated.

I was down in the Subway on the September 4 with my wife, a canyoneering friend and several beginners. When I told this story to my wife, she cried.

I am frustrated because this was completely avoidable: The rap off the log should not have been left. The subway does NOT require rappelling (unless you include Das Boot). None of my group rapped. At the final "mandatory" rap, I was providing a handline for my beginners when suddenly a group of experienced, irresponsible canyoneers showed up and proceeded to "build" the deadly anchor by throwing a log into the pool below and setup a rap off the other log in the waterfall.

Many inexperienced people do this canyon, rapping off a log is difficult, rapping in a waterfall is difficult. If you must get your trills in a "beginner" canyon, please climb back up and clean up after yourself.

Funny how you didn't have the nuts to say anything to me at the time but now that something tragic has happened, you take the opportunity to demonstrate your wisdom and you entitle yourself to be right about an issue that was, at the time, a non issue. Your attitude kinda sickens me.

I built that anchor. It was safe. You must not have been paying attention. I didn't throw any log down the slot. I moved 1 log. Period. One, uno, einz.... And I built a safe anchor off of it to experience a neat piece of that canyon that most people avoid. Yeah it was slightly riskier than the bolted rap but as a canyoneer, your responsibility is to evaluate anchors and make your own judgement call.
Yes I am somewhat experienced, I am not, however, irresponsible. Hell, I made and used a natural anchor. Hows that for ethics? There was an old sling on the log that was already there, I added another log and actually made it safer than it was by raising the anchor point above your feet.

You can go back to knowing it all, but don't bother sharing it. Hypocrite.

[Stray]

It was terrible tragey. I reread what I said and didn't mean to place any blame. I am sorry.

Earlier in the day, I meet two "hikers" whos total experience with canyoneering was 15 minutes with the people who rented them their equipment. When I told they didn't have to rappel this canyon at all they said, "we rented the equipment we want to use it!"

[dlofting]

Wow, this is a tragic accident that I feel terrible about.

It makes me feel even worse that someone is trying to put blame on the person who built the anchor...that is totally WRONG. Accidents happen in canyonnering. That is something you have to accept if you want to pursue the sport. You can do everything "right" and still end up a victim of circumstances and nature.

Please don't try to affix blame - it doesn't help anyone, least of all the relatives and friends of the man who died.

[dlofting]

Thanks for you second post, Stray.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW the new log actually makes the route safer for everyone. The new log makes reaching the standard anchors easier as it creates a better walkway over the waterfall.

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[Bo_Beck]

FWIW the new log actually makes the route safer for everyone. The new log makes reaching the standard anchors easier as it creates a better walkway over the waterfall.

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???? 16 going on 17 years volunteering my services with ZNP with an average of 6 SARS on the way, within and exiting The Left Fork. I have responded to one injury sustained from the descent at the old anchors within this time frame. 2 weeks of a new anchor yielded a fatality. Safer? Maybe I'm not seeing this right? Please correct me if I'm wrong Shane? I can see that sometime in the future new anchors will be needed as the log wedged in the wash will dissappear and access to the ledge containing the "old" anchors may be compromised? Thanks, Bo

[Bo_Beck]

???? 16 going on 17 years volunteering my services with ZNP with an average of 6 SARS on the way, within and exiting The Left Fork. I have responded to one injury sustained from the descent at the old anchors within this time frame. 2 weeks of a new anchor yielded a fatality. Safer? Maybe I'm not seeing this right? Please correct me if I'm wrong Shane? I can see that sometime in the future new anchors will be needed as the log wedged in the wash will dissappear and access to the ledge containing the "old" anchors may be compromised? Thanks, Bo

Bump: I'm sorry...I see that you refer to the log placement making access safer and not the new anchor that was constructed for descent into the waterfall....

[xxnitsuaxx]

Many inexperienced people do this canyon, rapping off a log is difficult, rapping in a waterfall is difficult. If you must get your trills in a "beginner" canyon, please climb back up and clean up after yourself.

People still make the decision to rappel off the log. People also make the decision to be self-righteous dickheads under fake names online. That's a lot of chest-thumping from someone trying to be badass about doing the Subway "properly". Seriously dude? You're bragging about doing the Subway without rapping? You want a cookie or a sticker? Post your name and take responsibility for your comments like a man. I hope to run into you in a canyon some day and have you try and critique my techniques.

Austin Baird

[Bootboy]

???? 16 going on 17 years volunteering my services with ZNP with an average of 6 SARS on the way, within and exiting The Left Fork. I have responded to one injury sustained from the descent at the old anchors within this time frame. 2 weeks of a new anchor yielded a fatality. Safer? Maybe I'm not seeing this right? Please correct me if I'm wrong Shane? I can see that sometime in the future new anchors will be needed as the log wedged in the wash will dissappear and access to the ledge containing the "old" anchors may be compromised? Thanks, Bo

No, you're not seeing it right. There are hundreds of anchors in canyons around the park that are every bit as awkward of a start, if not more so than aforementioned anchor. People rappel on them every day without incident. It's fallacy and false premise to establish the cause and effect relationship of the anchor causing the problem. Coincidence is more accurate.
Use your head. He was already on his way down the rope when things went wrong. Once on the rope, a good anchor cannot give you any problems, and the only thing a bad anchor can do is fail, that didn't happen. The actual placement of the anchor has absolutely nothing to do with it. It was simply what his rope was attached to, that is as involved as the anchor gets. Period.

I'm getting sick of people trying connect my anchor to this tragedy. I don't exactly feel stoked about it, but there was no way to know at the time. Tell me honestly if any of you would have thought at the time that this could be a potential problem, any more so than ANY OTHER ANCHOR in the whole damn park. If any of you say "yes", you're padding your ego and lying to yourself and everyone here

[shagdeuce]

An anchor down those falls has been in place off and on for years. Assigning blame to the party that rebuilt the anchor is as folly as assigning blame to any of the other circumstances surrounding the accident, for example the SAR not going out the night they were notified, the training not providing enough training to deal with this circumstance, the 2nd to last group passing them up, etc. Assigning blame to any of these things is ridiculous. Nobody involved had ill intent; in fact, they had only the best of intentions. These were all circumstances surrounding a horrible tragedy; don't mistake them for causes.

[Bo_Beck]

No, you're not seeing it right. There are hundreds of anchors in canyons around the park that are every bit as awkward of a start, if not more so than aforementioned anchor. People rappel on them every day without incident. It's fallacy and false premise to establish the cause and effect relationship of the anchor causing the problem. Coincidence is more accurate.
Use your head. He was already on his way down the rope when things went wrong. Once on the rope, a good anchor cannot give you any problems, and the only thing a bad anchor can do is fail, that didn't happen. The actual placement of the anchor has absolutely nothing to do with it. It was simply what his rope was attached to, that is as involved as the anchor gets. Period.

I'm getting sick of people trying connect my anchor to this tragedy. I don't exactly feel stoked about it, but there was no way to know at the time. Tell me honestly if any of you would have thought at the time that this could be a potential problem, any more so than ANY OTHER ANCHOR in the whole damn park. If any of you say "yes", you're padding your ego and lying to yourself and everyone here

No pissing match going on here. My response did not even hint of blame or fault. My response was strictly directed at a comment I misread (or failed to read in it's entirety) to begin with. What I misread and commented on was Shanes comment about how the newly placed tree actually made it safer. I failed to read that Shane was actually suggesting the newly placed tree made it safer to access the "old" anchors. I realized my mistake soon after and apologized.
"Bump: I'm sorry...I see that you refer to the log placement making access safer and not the new anchor that was constructed for descent into the waterfall....

[Stray]

People still make the decision to rappel off the log. People also make the decision to be self-righteous dickheads under fake names online. That's a lot of chest-thumping from someone trying to be badass about doing the Subway "properly". Seriously dude? You're bragging about doing the Subway without rapping? You want a cookie or a sticker? Post your name and take responsibility for your comments like a man. I hope to run into you in a canyon some day and have you try and critique my techniques.


Austin,

Clearly I am not expressing myself properly (it is why I don't post very often).

I am just saying we need to consider others when we make choices. If we don't then we leave it up to the goverment (ZNP) to make them for us. And none of us wants that.

In this case we have an elderly couple struggling to finish a canyon, a canyon they are doing for the first time (completing a long time bucket list item). They are behind and most likely will not finish before dark. Suddenly, they encounter a difficult if not impossible obstacle. A quick look around reveals an anchor. They take it and the results is a tragic accident.

[Bootboy]

I am just saying we need to consider others when we make choices. If we don't then we leave it up to the goverment (ZAC) to make them for us. And none of us wants that...

Once again, you are insinuating that I failed to consider others and failed to make a good decision and don't understand what you stated above. Stop. You are right, had the anchor not been there this probably would not have happened, but who is to say someone else wouldn't have built it or that the couple wouldn't have used the existing anchor in the same spot. You cannot within reason establish that cause and effect relationship. That anchor has absolutely nothing to do with policing ourselves or canyon ethics. Your deduction is false. There are way too many variables in circumstance to establish any logical connection of cause and effect to any single one.

Ps. How is ZAC in any way correlated to the government in this scenario?

[Byron]

Hey guys, re read Jeremy's post (Deathtointernet) on page 6. What he says covers it...no one to blame here.

On a personal note, I've been all over the canyon country for more than 25 years. I can't tell you (actually, I can...lots of stories) how many newbies and over their head types I've encountered in "You've got to be kidding me" situations. For every bad thing that happens, there are scores of near misses.

Don't feel bad, Bootboy. It sure as hell isn't your fault. Isn't it strange though, that his destiny was, in a way, tied to you? THAT'S THE HARD PART. You have no control over fate.

[MattLeonard]

As is often with backcountry incidents - the armchair/internet analysis, hypothesizing, and blame-placing takes off. I guess I won't hold back either.

I had the misfortune of being on the route that morning, and coming across the body just a few minutes after the first SAR responder did. For context: I'm a brand-new canyoneer (I had done Keyhole the day before - same as the subject party), but a very experienced climber, have some rescue training (CMC), and have done industrial rigging (formal IRATA, and on-the-job through the IATSE union). That doesn't make my perspective any more valid than anyone else's - but it gives context for where I'm coming from.

The anchor? Props to whomever built it. It looks like a fun rappel, and while I only saw it briefly while stepping over it (and the hanging body) - it looked to be built well, and as safe as it should be. Was it a more-difficult-than "standard" Subway rappel? You bet - it was at your feet, on a semi-wet log, and looked to be into free space. It has an obstacle (Waterfall) that could easily make someone lose control of the rap. This doesn't make it inherently unsafe, but does mean it's more challenging than other raps on the route, and certainly more challenging for newbies who have only worked on anchors that were at their face-level, and not dropping into free space. Who knows if they saw the easier bolted rap 50 feet past the logs or not. But variations are parts of routes (and SHOULD be) -and adding fun, challenging options are part and parcel of the sport. It's upon individuals to have the experience and skills to evaluate and look for such things - and know when to say when.

The real problem here? Newbies shouldn't be leading newbies. This was my first time in Subway - and we passed dozens of people doing the route with no technical gear at all. That's personal choice - but it seemed a bit sketchy to me to have CLEARLY inexperienced hikers, in sandals, often times quite young - hand-over-handing it (or at best a hip-belay) on 7mil cord down slippery drops up to 30'. I recognize I'm new to cnayoneering culture and norms - but as someone who is fit, strong, good with footwork, and a great scrambler - I'm glad I chose to safely rappel rather than risk sprained ankles or worse - especially on a long backcountry route where a rescue might take a while, and hobbling out on a broken ankle wouldn't be fun.

The only 2 parties we saw who were also rapping on it were both totally fresh. They had both taken a 1-day crash-course in rappelling from a local shop (I don't know which), and barely knew how to thread their device, much less how to recognize problems, troubleshoot anything, evaluate anchors, ascend, or do anything else on rope. BOTH of the other parties (my partner and I included) accidentally started off-route and came upon a ~100' rap right off the bat, before dropping into the Subway canyon.

Both other parties said "well, the book says 30' downclimb". I had the experience to recognize that this WAS NOT the book route, not an easy downclimb, and that this was a much longer rappel with an intermediate anchor. Everyone made it down, but it took some coaching on my part for people to rig ropes properly (since their "Subway Rental Ropes" weren't sufficient), and everyone struggled a bit on the 2nd pitch rap as the anchor forces you into a slightly tricky stance. If I wasn't there there? I can totally see folks rapping with the rope they had, realizing their ropes weren't long enough halfway down, and not having the slightest clue what to do once they were at the bottom of their rope with another 40' to go. Hopefully I'm wrong, but that seemed to be the direction things were headed when I was there.

THIS is the problem. Newbies shouldn't lead newbies. While Subway (or any other route) might IDEALLY be very simple and straightforward, tons of people (apparently including Guides) are sending people out there with the bare-bones skills needed to do the route under optimal conditions. When things go perfect - no problem. But when something goes differently, too many folks don't have the most basic of skills to even recognize that something is off, or to even know what their options are.

Not everyone needs to carry a bolt kit. Not everyone needs to have strong self-rescue skills. Not everyone has to be able to rig a 6-point equalized anchor and do an aussie-style rappel. But someone in EVERY party (if not everyone in the party) should at least know how to ascend a rope, and have the experience to evaluate common situations and recognize a potential pitfall before it happens.

From what we know of this accident - simply knowing how to tie a prussik (and of course, carrying cord for one) would likely have prevented this tragedy. I've seen autoblocks, clothing, hair, jewelry and more get caught in rappel devices. It's not a rare situation. And it's not a big deal - it should be a very simple issue to address. I can't imagine the thought process that left someone thinking that cutting your harness was the best/only option. Maybe more details will emerge, but this seems like a very, very avoidable accident.

Maybe this is me coming from a more conservative climbing ethic, but I was a bit shocked at how casual, and lax the culture around rappelling seemed to be in Zion. I appreciate the climbing mentors I had they rightfully make me super cautious when learning how to place protection, analyze and build anchors every which possible way, and learn self-rescue skills before I headed off in the backcountry. I felt that the canyoneering culture I encountered on this trip didn't share this ethic. As but one example - I was surprised that renting gear is the norm - you are hard pressed to find a climbing shop that would rent a harness and rope. (I'm not opposed to this - but I think it does reflect a much more casual safety ethic)

Either way, it's a sad tragedy, let's not forget that. Accidents happen all the time, and let's use these opportunities to LEARN from them to prevent them in the future. Pointing blame is not the goal - finding constructive solutions is.

-Matt

[dougr]

No blame to you boot in my eyes.

Regardless, I don't care if an anchor was set wrong, tied wrong, used old webbing, whatever. Always the responsibility of the user, period. Including trade routes.

Sent from my ICS'd SGS2

[nelsonccc]

That anchor has been there for years. I rapped off that log and I haven't done the subway in 5 years or so. I loved that rap since it is a waterfall and a cool little 'cave' back behind it.

I stay out of the subway for many of the reasons listed here. I simply cannot stand all the people and the dumb things they do. I've seen so many stupid things done in that canyon over the years that's it's amazing there aren't even more rescues then there are currently.

[dougr]

Which in time will lead to loss of and restriction on our canyons. Hence my counter intuitive insistence on not kowtowing to the safety nazis.

If we continually give in to the notion that we aren't fundamentally responsible for our own safety at all times out there, then restrictions will follow. I have no tolerance for people even implying that anything was wrong about that anchor or any anchor.

Sent from my ICS'd SGS2

[Scott Card]

Sad, sad way to go. Dang... 5 feet from the deck. So sorry for the family and friends of this man.

[canyoncaver]

I apologize if I missed this somewhere, but what on earth was his foot stuck in? Was it rock, log, anchor sling, his own gear, or rope leg wrap? Those are my guesses so far.

[Stray]

...what on earth was his foot stuck in? Was it rock, log, anchor sling, his own gear, or rope leg wrap?

When his autobloc became stuck, he cut off his harness and his foot stuck in the harness as he fell.

[canyoncaver]

When his autobloc became stuck, he cut off his harness and his foot stuck in the harness as he fell.

Thank you for the clarification. I couldn't figure it out from the written reports.

[Eric Holden]

Thank you for the clarification. I couldn't figure it out from the written reports.

FYI

http://www.statesman.com/news/nation/man-dies-hanging-upside-down-at-utahs-zion-2462983.html

[rick t]

Interesting that with all of the misguided finger pointing about the webbing on the log, which anchors have come and gone for years, that nobody focuses on the actual cause of the accident (aside from the victim being a newbie) being the autoblock (on a 15 ft rappel??), taught to him by the local business who pushes that more often problematic than not, practice.

rick

[marlowequart]

What a tragedy, condolences to the parties involved.



...

The only 2 parties we saw who were also rapping on it were both totally fresh. They had both taken a 1-day crash-course in rappelling from a local shop (I don't know which), and barely knew how to thread their device, much less how to recognize problems, troubleshoot anything, evaluate anchors, ascend, or do anything else on rope. BOTH of the other parties (my partner and I included) accidentally started off-route and came upon a ~100' rap right off the bat, before dropping into the Subway canyon.

Both other parties said "well, the book says 30' downclimb". I had the experience to recognize that this WAS NOT the book route, not an easy downclimb, and that this was a much longer rappel with an intermediate anchor. Everyone made it down, but it took some coaching on my part for people to rig ropes properly (since their "Subway Rental Ropes" weren't sufficient), and everyone struggled a bit on the 2nd pitch rap as the anchor forces you into a slightly tricky stance. If I wasn't there there? I can totally see folks rapping with the rope they had, realizing their ropes weren't long enough halfway down, and not having the slightest clue what to do once they were at the bottom of their rope with another 40' to go. Hopefully I'm wrong, but that seemed to be the direction things were headed when I was there.

THIS is the problem. Newbies shouldn't lead newbies. While Subway (or any other route) might IDEALLY be very simple and straightforward, tons of people (apparently including Guides) are sending people out there with the bare-bones skills needed to do the route under optimal conditions. When things go perfect - no problem. But when something goes differently, too many folks don't have the most basic of skills to even recognize that something is off, or to even know what their options are.

...

Either way, it's a sad tragedy, let's not forget that. Accidents happen all the time, and let's use these opportunities to LEARN from them to prevent them in the future. Pointing blame is not the goal - finding constructive solutions is.

-Matt

I once saw a lady almost lose her life in that same spot, she sliped off that little ledge and was hanging upside down with the rope just wraped around her legs.

Assuming responsability for this tragedy because you built the anchor is wrong and not healthy. It is not your fault.

As far as learning from this, i like the idea of lifting yoursefl up with the brake line to get unstuck. Also, when i was first starting, i was told to use an autoblock, but it seems unnecessary unless your the first one down. Then you can do a firemans belay. What do others think about that?
Marlowe

[rick t]

the whole idea of the auto block/safety is covered quite well in another thread- Do you use a safety backup? (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?63494-Do-you-use-a-safety-backup)

rick

[Slipknot]

I camped next to a photographer this week who was the first person onsite hiking from the bottom up early in the morning. He snapped a few pictures from a distance while not realizing what was in the water. He showed me the picture while we were gearing up for Imlay. Not one of the best things to look at before heading down a canyon. From what I could see in the picture, the prusik had to be at least 12" - 16" long. It was quite apparent that it was tangled in his rappel device. Using a prusik on a 15' rappel seems like a little overkill to me but it seems that the length of the prusik caused this accident as opposed to his choice of using one.

[Iceaxe]

Using a prusik on a 15' rappel seems like a little overkill

:haha:

I'm probably going to hell for it.... but that made me snicker....

And welcome to Bogley. :2thumbs:

[Slipknot]

Thanks for pointing out my accidental pun....that was not my intention and now I feel awkward. I guess you will have company!

[ddavis]

[QUOTE]Hanging in a harness for too long, especially upside down, can cut off a climber's blood circulation, said Mike Banach, a guide who is familiar with the Subway and says many hikers are left at their own peril because commercial guiding is prohibited inside the park

[xxnitsuaxx]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

[Bootboy]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

Amen.

I.e.: The guiding in the Tetons makes me sick every time I go up there. The National Park System was set up to avoid the pitfalls of exploitation and aberrant "capitalism". Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea.

[ghawk]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

x2

[dougr]

x3. We in the community have, are, and will face restrictions in the name of safety. Maybe guiding will be required ultimately. Who knows with the nanny state mentality course the country is on.

[Iceaxe]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

X4

Sent using Tapatalk

[erial]

some comments from Legacy.com:

September 24, 2012 Doctor Hosobuchi was my doctor in 1985 and 1987. He was a wonderful doctor. His skills fixed my back. I was barely walking and now thanks to him, I walking fine now. My heart goes out to his family and friends. I will always be grateful and thankful. He was in my life for a short while. ~
Janet Clark,
Antioch, California




September 22, 2012 Thank you for saving my life in 1986, Dr. Hosobuchi, even though you kept thinking I would die....I am alive because of what you did.
Thank you ~
Mousie Zavala,
Parma, Idaho





September 22, 2012 I AND MY FAMILY SEND OUR HEART-FELT SYMPATHY AND PRAYERS OF ON-GOING BLESSINGS OF COMFORT TO THE FAMILY OF YOSHIO HOSOBUCHI. I WILL FOREVER BE THANKFUL AND HAVE GRADITUDE FOR DR. HOSOBUCHI SAVING MY LIFE WHEN I HAD A CEREBRAL ANEURYSM IN 1977. HIS EXCELLENT SKILLS AS A NEUROSURGEON WERE TRULY A BLESSING TO ME AND TO OTHERS AT UC MOFFIT HOSPITAL IN SAN FRANCISCO. AS GOD BLESSED ME THRU HIM, I PRAY THAT GOD WILL BLESS ALL OF YOU AND LOVINGLY SUPPORT AND HELP YOU ALL WITH YOU LOSS.
SINCERELY, LORENE JOHNSON AND FAMILY OF OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA SEPTEMBER 22, 2012.

[deagol]

I can't imagine a worse idea than allowing guiding in Zion.

X5. Please don't allow guiding in Zion

[mdd]

The interview with the guide in the articles brings up an important point that I think many people have missed.

The couple in this tragic accident had a descent of the Subway on their "bucket list". Because of regulations they couldn't hire a guide to take them there safely, so they do what is allowed - they take a class, just before their canyon, to learn the skills to get them through, then descend it sans guide.

I am willing to bet that, had a guide service been allowed to take them through, they would have done so in lieu of taking the classes, perhaps preventing this tragedy.

But guides aren't allowed, because we don't want them competing with recreational canyoneers for permits. Looking at it another way, guiding is not allowed in Zion in response to a stupidly thought out and applied permit system. You can then apply a flow of logic that can, at least in a small way, implicate the permit system as a factor in this tragedy.

I'm all for guiding in Zion, but they need to reform the permit system (relaxing or removing quotas) to make it equitable, and I hope they do so.

I hope people remember to mention this to Jock when he starts asking for public comments on the permit system again down the road sometime.

M

[hank moon]

I'm all for guiding in Zion, but they need to reform the permit system (relaxing or removing quotas) to make it equitable, and I hope they do so.

Timing, specific resource management, and number of guided trips is also key. For example, in trade routes, guide services could be required to run trips off-hours, or off-season. Off season, there is no competition for permits already, except in super high-demand canyons such as Mystery and Subway. Practically no-one is doing Telephone (hardly ever, really).

[Iceaxe]

But guides aren't allowed, because we don't want them competing with recreational canyoneers for permits. Looking at it another way, guiding is not allowed in Zion in response to a stupidly thought out and applied permit system.

Not exactly.... guiding was prohibited in Zion long before a permit system was established. So to say guiding is baned because of permits is not entirely accurrate.




Timing, specific resource management, and number of guided trips is also key. For example, in trade routes, guide services could be required to run trips off-hours, or off-season.

I'd prefer to not let the guiding genie out of the bottle under any circumstance.

I remember the day when Zion backcountry permits didn't exist, and I remember the day when they were free, voluntary and used as an extra measure of safety.... And now we have the current permit mess.... all because we let the permit genie out of the bottle......

YMMV :cool2:

[mdd]

Not exactly.... guiding was prohibited in Zion long before a permit system was established. So to say guiding is baned because of permits is not entirely accurrate.

Au contraire, though I will concede that the permit system is not the only reason that guiding is banned in the park, it is a very major reason from the park's point of view, and based on visitor surveys it is THE major reason according to visitors (aka us, "our community"). The creation of the new backcountry management plan a few years ago essentially created a blank slate to re-evaluate guiding in the park regardless of the status quo before then. From the Zion BMP, appendix E (bolding is mine):

Should commercial guiding be allowed in the Primitive Zone?
172 comments received on this topic


37 percent (from form letter) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
45 percent (not form letters) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
15 percent stated that commercial guiding should be allowed
3 percent had no clear stand on commercial guiding
The most frequent reason given by those opposed to guiding was concern that commercial operations would take all available permits. Many of those who indicated a support for commercial guiding indicated that a system should be put in place that eliminates competition between private and commercial groups for permits.
The second most common reason given by those opposed to guiding was a belief that commercial operations do not have a place in Zion’s backcountry, and that there are other areas outside of Zion available for the activity.
Those in favor of guiding commented on the ability of guides to promote safe canyoneering and resource conservation.


--

Further in Appendix E, ZNP gives its rationale for banning guides:

A permit system is currently in place to keep use levels at, or near, proposed social or resource standards for canyoneering trips as well as overnight trips in the Primitive Zone.... An additional group of users would put additional pressure on all areas within the Primitive Zone.

Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate.

--

This is Zion National Park basically saying that guides are banned because adding an additional "user group" (i.e., guided parties) would put too much pressure on quotas set by the permit system.


M

[mtn_dude]

This is Zion National Park basically saying that guides are banned because adding an additional "user group" (i.e., guided parties) would put too much pressure on quotas set by the permit system.

Is the permit system there to only have a quota of people in canyons or is it there as a safety thing too? I ask because from reports on this past weeks accident a group that had passed Mr. Hosobuchi told a Park ranger up top that there was an elderly couple still way behind. If the permit system were a way for ZNP to keep people safe then SAR could've been out that night. But from what this part that MDD has from ZNP sounds more like the permit system is strictly to limit numbers.
As for guiding in the canyons, a number of previous post by users on here say that they take people through canyons for "gifts" and other forms of payment

[Iceaxe]

Au contraire, though I will concede that the permit system is not the only reason that guiding is banned in the park, it is a very major reason from the park's point of view, and based on visitor surveys it is THE major reason according to visitors (aka us, "our community"). The creation of the new backcountry management plan a few years ago essentially created a blank slate to re-evaluate guiding in the park regardless of the status quo before then.

I agree completely that a limited number of permits has established and additional barrier to commercial guiding inside Zion.

I was just pointing out that Zion has never allowed guiding for various reasons.

I honestly don't think guiding would be allowed in a lot of NP's, like Grand Teton, if they had not of been grandfathered in when the NP was created.

[Iceaxe]

Is the permit system there to only have a quota of people in canyons or is it there as a safety thing too?

Originally the permit system was a safety measure implemented after the Boy Scouts in Kolob disaster (http://www.climb-utah.com/Zion/kolob1.htm). It has now morphed into many different things and the original intent has all but been forgotten, as is standard operating procedure when a large bureaucracy gets it's hands on something. When the permit system was first implemented permits were free, there was no quote, obtaining a permit was encouraged but not required, obtaining a permit was volunteery.



If the permit system were a way for ZNP to keep people safe then SAR could've been out that night.

SAR doesn't typically launch for over due hikers. Lots of folks are forced into a bivy for various reasons and the large majority of them walk out on their own the next morning. It is not uncommon for the first groups emerging from the Subway the next day to have lost or slow hikers from the day before in tow. In this particular case I assume the rangers were keeping an eye on the situation and would have launched if the first groups through the next day had of reported a problem or reported not seeing the missing hikers.



As for guiding in the canyons, a number of previous post by users on here say that they take people through canyons for "gifts" and other forms of payment

You need to differentiate between "commercial guiding" and friendship guiding. A lot of guiding goes on inside Zion, its just not commercial. Scout leaders guiding scout troops, "Canyon leaders" guiding groups through at rendezvous, A friend buying the beer and pizza in appreciation, yada, yada...

[Brian in SLC]

Hanging in a harness for too long, especially upside down, can cut off a climber's blood circulation, said Mike Banach, a guide who is familiar with the Subway and says many hikers are left at their own peril because commercial guiding is prohibited inside the park — they would compete for a limited number of hiking permits.
"People are going in without knowledge or experience and don't even have the ability to hire a guide," said Banach of Zion Mountain School in Springdale, Utah, the park's main entrance. He guides hikers outside Zion National Park.

I'll have to admit those statements above made me kinda ill when I read them. Talk about self serving. Using a tragedy to promote your cause is kinda low ball especially while there's still blood in the air. They took a course from a local guide service before they went, and, learned a technique that may have been an issue. You want self serving? There ya go. Maybe they went to a rival company. Smell a lawsuit? I do.

[Iceaxe]

Talk about self serving. Using a tragedy to promote your cause is kinda low ball especially while there's still blood in the air.

That was my first thought when I read the comments.......

[ratagonia]

THIS is the problem. Newbies shouldn't lead newbies. While Subway (or any other route) might IDEALLY be very simple and straightforward, tons of people (apparently including Guides) are sending people out there with the bare-bones skills needed to do the route under optimal conditions. When things go perfect - no problem. But when something goes differently, too many folks don't have the most basic of skills to even recognize that something is off, or to even know what their options are.

Not everyone needs to carry a bolt kit. Not everyone needs to have strong self-rescue skills. Not everyone has to be able to rig a 6-point equalized anchor and do an aussie-style rappel. But someone in EVERY party (if not everyone in the party) should at least know how to ascend a rope, and have the experience to evaluate common situations and recognize a potential pitfall before it happens.

...

Maybe this is me coming from a more conservative climbing ethic, but I was a bit shocked at how casual, and lax the culture around rappelling seemed to be in Zion. I appreciate the climbing mentors I had they rightfully make me super cautious when learning how to place protection, analyze and build anchors every which possible way, and learn self-rescue skills before I headed off in the backcountry. I felt that the canyoneering culture I encountered on this trip didn't share this ethic. As but one example - I was surprised that renting gear is the norm - you are hard pressed to find a climbing shop that would rent a harness and rope. (I'm not opposed to this - but I think it does reflect a much more casual safety ethic)



Is this a great country, or what?

Seriously. People with little sense and less skill have the perfect right to go out and put themselves and others in danger.

I think this is a good thing. And I don't think there is anything good that can be done to "prevent it", though many of us work pretty hard to convince people that yes, they really maybe otta have some skills before venturing out into the wilderness.

As an experienced outdoors-person, Matt, I gotta ask - how the FRAK did you end up in the wrong canyon? Or did you intend to go there?

Thanks for taking care of the noobs who were also off-route.

By the by, 'renting gear' is not the norm. People who take a course with ZAC are priviliged to rent some gear and borrow ropes. I do not know the policy of the other shops. Also, people can rent some gear at ZAC on occasion, at the choice of the staff-person. When people forget harnesses or helmets, for instance, we consider it a good thing to help these people out, especially if they are prior customers. We reserve the right to refuse this service for any reason.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The National Park System was set up to avoid the pitfalls of exploitation and aberrant "capitalism".

Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea.

Really? You must be reading different history books than I am. Your first statement is not supported by the facts.

The NPS in many parks (Rainier, Tetons) originally provided the guides as part of their 'service'. After that period there is a long history of the guide service (usually exactly one) and the Park working closely together. The mission of the National Parks is to preserve and protect the park, and to foster recreation and enjoyment of the Parks. Early in its history, the NPS placed considerable emphasis on the latter, and moved aggressively to bring people to the parks and provide services for visitors when they got there, in many cases including guided hiking and climbing opportunities.

You will no doubt be disappointed that Zion National Park no longer provides ranger-guided horse-rides into the Narrows or up to Cabin Springs for lunch, on the West Rim, as they did into the late 50's or early 60's.

As part of the political process, guide services have been instrumental in assuring that rich people (the guided class) provide political support for the National Parks, and specifically for the guide service concessionaires in National Parks.

If anything, Zion National Park is an anomaly in not allowing concessionaire guiding in the backcountry.

"Allowing guiding is, in my opinion, contrary to the whole idea."

I am happy to have you express your opinion, especially if you would clarify:

What is "the whole idea"?

And how does guiding conflict with this?

(I personally do not think guiding in Zion National Park is a good idea. I think it could be a good idea if administered well, but I think the chances of it being administered well are low.)

Tom

[ratagonia]

Au contraire, though I will concede that the permit system is not the only reason that guiding is banned in the park, it is a very major reason from the park's point of view, and based on visitor surveys it is THE major reason according to visitors (aka us, "our community"). The creation of the new backcountry management plan a few years ago essentially created a blank slate to re-evaluate guiding in the park regardless of the status quo before then. From the Zion BMP, appendix E (bolding is mine):

Should commercial guiding be allowed in the Primitive Zone?
172 comments received on this topic


37 percent (from form letter) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
45 percent (not form letters) stated that commercial guiding should not be allowed
15 percent stated that commercial guiding should be allowed
3 percent had no clear stand on commercial guiding
The most frequent reason given by those opposed to guiding was concern that commercial operations would take all available permits. Many of those who indicated a support for commercial guiding indicated that a system should be put in place that eliminates competition between private and commercial groups for permits.
The second most common reason given by those opposed to guiding was a belief that commercial operations do not have a place in Zion’s backcountry, and that there are other areas outside of Zion available for the activity.
Those in favor of guiding commented on the ability of guides to promote safe canyoneering and resource conservation.


--

Further in Appendix E, ZNP gives its rationale for banning guides:

A permit system is currently in place to keep use levels at, or near, proposed social or resource standards for canyoneering trips as well as overnight trips in the Primitive Zone.... An additional group of users would put additional pressure on all areas within the Primitive Zone.

Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate.

MDD: This is Zion National Park basically saying that guides are banned because adding an additional "user group" (i.e., guided parties) would put too much pressure on quotas set by the permit system.

M

I think ZNP did a good job of manipulating the Backcountry Management Plan to cut off any meaningful discussion of guiding in the backcountry.

"Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate."

1. The Park assessed demand for guided trips by surveying non-guided backcountry users, and found no demand. Not a surprise. (As a similar example, I have surveyed my Sierra Club friends, and find little support for Mr. Romney; therefore there is little support for Mr. Romney?);
2. The Park DECLARED that existing use levels in the backcountry were "high". They presented no evidence to support this claim. It is a declaration. I don't find use level in the backcountry to be high - in all but a few highly-sought after routes, use in the backcountry of Zion is extremely low.

In the Backcountry Plan, when the 'survey' supports the Park position, the Park makes it clear that 'the users voted' that way, as if it was a matter of tallying the votes. When the Park position is contrary to how the users 'voted', then the Park ignores the votes. So, the Park is very willing to use survey results as an EXCUSE for taking a particular action, but it is naive to claim that the Park takes ANY action because it represents the opinion of the populace. The Park does what it darn well pleases, and finds and excuse, however flimsy, whereever it can.

Tom

[ratagonia]

(from the article linked above)

Seems like this article is making it around the country. It caught my attention the first time I saw it. Looks like an attempt to use this incident to allow guiding in Zion.

You give Mike too much credence. He inopportunely took a jab at the park management. He mouthed off. Simple as that.

Tom

[Scott P]

The NPS in many parks (Rainier, Tetons) originally provided the guides as part of their 'service'.

Many still do (even on semi-technical stuff).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, personally, I don't think the Subway should be guided. I even find the quotas of 80 per day as really reasonable. As much as most of us don't like to get a permit, on a canyon such as the Subway, there almost has to be a limit on how many people are in there at once. Some routes might not matter, but in my opinion, the Subway doesn't fit that criteria.

[SRG]

"What is "the whole idea"?

I always thought that "the whole idea" was that the National Parks would be set aside for the enjoyment and recreation of the people.

I object to guiding on NTL Park land on the same principle which I object to drilling for oil on NTL Park land... because the resources of our parks shouldn't be open for private/for-profit consumption.

My comparison between drilling for oil and commercial guiding is on principle only. I understand that when it comes to impact on the parks, there is no comparison.

[mtn_dude]

SAR doesn't typically launch for over due hikers...You need to differentiate between "commercial guiding" and friendship guiding.

As for SAR not getting out the day of, I was thinking that if permits were more focused on safety of people in the backcountry and not quotas. they might have done something right away.
The commercial guides/friend guides I was being facetious.
But I do feel that commercial guiding in Zion isn't a bad thing, except it would open the Zion Superintendent to ridicule (and a pissing fest between locals) for not allowing certain companies and allegedly favoring others. Will commercial guiding be available soon in Zion Backcountry, doubtful.

[Aj84737]

I don't think commercial guiding should be allowed in Zion either! There are plenty of canyons outside the park that are fine for guiding. Sadly enough I do kinda like having quotas though. Not saying the permit system is perfect cause we all know it's far from it. But these canyons are far more enjoyable when you don't have to wait for three groups of people to rappel ahead of you at every rappel in pine creek for example. Think of how bad the subway or pine creek would be without a quota. However on the other end canyons like mystery need the stars and planets to align to get a permit in peak season so they could use a few more permits.

[ratagonia]

Many still do (even on semi-technical stuff).



Name one.

I don't know of any park that provides anything beyond ranger-led interpretative tours. Are there some that do?

Tom

[ratagonia]

As for SAR not getting out the day of, I was thinking that if permits were more focused on safety of people in the backcountry and not quotas. they might have done something right away.


Seriously?

Cameras at every rappel in every popular canyon?

Maybe button-operated airbags at the bottom of each rappel - the ranger watching the canyons can pop it out as soon as the rappeller looks like they are having problems. Of course, then, only specific rappels would be allowed... (etc.)

Emergency Call Phones in every canyon? Rangers in helicopters ready to respond?

"they might have done something right away."

Sorry to seem a little crass, but how long do you think he lasted? One hour? Two hours? Even with a helicopter and an immediate call-out, it would have been hard for a rescuer to get there in time.

It's a tragedy. It is sad. It is unfortunate.

But if people want to visit the Parks and do things in the backcountry, and have bad luck; the combination will result in people dying. This is not a bad thing, as it is not a good thing. It is a part of life.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I always thought that "the whole idea" was that the National Parks would be set aside for the enjoyment and recreation of the people.

I object to guiding on NTL Park land on the same principle which I object to drilling for oil on NTL Park land... because the resources of our parks shouldn't be open for private/for-profit consumption.

My comparison between drilling for oil and commercial guiding is on principle only. I understand that when it comes to impact on the parks, there is no comparison.

Interesting comparison...

Let me introduce you to: Grand Canyon National Park

"because the resources of our parks shouldn't be open for private/for-profit consumption."

Consumption? How is guiding people in a Park consumption?

Tom

[Scott P]

Name one.

I don't know of any park that provides anything beyond ranger-led interpretative tours. Are there some that do?



Yes. The parks and monuments that have caves as a primary attraction certainly come to mind. This is true even of the semi-technical sections of some caves. For example, the tour of Spider Cave in Carlsbad NP is more than just a "ranger-led interpretative tour". I would say that it is more or less at least equal with the Subway in difficulty.

Although independent travel is still permitted in some of the parks/monuments that have caves as a primary attraction, guiding by the NPS is common and although most tours are easy (Timp or Leman Caves for example), at least some of the tours in some parks/monuments have more in common to say a semi technical canyon than they do with the simple ranger led interpretive tours in say Zion or Bryce.

[ddavis]

You give Mike too much credence. He inopportunely took a jab at the park management. He mouthed off. Simple as that.

Tom

I don't know him, so between that and whatever the reporter did to what he actually said, I could have misinterpreted his message. I also have my own opinions about guiding in Zion that gives me a bit of a bias. However, I didn't like what he said the first time I read it, and I really didn't like it the second time. It looked self-serving as hell. If, however, he was just mouthing off and taking jabs at park managment, then what he took was a cheap shot.

[ratagonia]

I don't know him, so between that and whatever the reporter did to what he actually said, I could have misinterpreted his message. I also have my own opinions about guiding in Zion that gives me a bit of a bias. However, I didn't like what he said the first time I read it, and I really didn't like it the second time. It looked self-serving as hell. If, however, he was just mouthing off and taking jabs at park managment, then what he took was a cheap shot.

All those things. :facepalm1:

[ratagonia]

Yes. The parks and monuments that have caves as a primary attraction certainly come to mind. This is true even of the semi-technical sections of some caves. For example, the tour of Spider Cave in Carlsbad NP is more than just a "ranger-led interpretative tour". I would say that it is more or less at least equal with the Subway in difficulty.

Although independent travel is still permitted in some of the parks/monuments that have caves as a primary attraction, guiding by the NPS is common and some of the tours have more in common to say a semi technical canyon than they do with the simple ranger led interpretive tours in say Zion or Bryce.

Good point.

But, seems like these (cave parks) are the exceptions in the National Park system.

When each Park looks at how to manage its resources, it looks to its mission. I suspect that the 'cave parks' lead tours there because they cannot preserve the caves and allow visitation at the same time, without closely supervising visitors. At most parks, since the Reagan administration, all things that can be out-sourced to private vendors are. Perhaps the community of Carlsbad had no one interested in running the cave tours as a concession.

Tom

[mtn_dude]

Cameras at every rappel in every popular canyon?...Maybe button-operated airbags at the bottom of each rappel - the ranger watching the canyons can pop it out as soon as the rappeller looks like they are having problems. Of course, then, only specific rappels would be allowed... (etc.)...Emergency Call Phones in every canyon? Rangers in helicopters ready to respond?

Those are a little in right field but thats an alright argument to make.

Would it hurt the park(or canyoneering pride) to allow the Ranger, who was told at the Left Fork trailhead at 9 p.m. that there was an elderly couple still down there, to be able to do something? Besides say, "I'll see them in the morning?"

[Scott P]

I suspect that the 'cave parks' lead tours there because they cannot preserve the caves and allow visitation at the same time, without closely supervising visitors.

Yes. Similar to the parks (i.e. Mesa Verde, Navajo National Monument, etc.) that emphasize ruins. I guess most of those guided tours could fit in the catagory of ranger led interpretive tours though.


Perhaps the community of Carlsbad had no one interested in running the cave tours as a concession.



Or my guess is that the NPS doesn't trust concessioners to make sure the fragile caves are protected enough. Carlsbad was one example, but the other "wild cave" tours in other parks are run by the NPS as well (for example some of the Wind Cave and Jewel Cave tours).

It seems the NPS like to do things themselves in the ruin parks and cave parks.

I guess that's a sidetrack of the main subject though.

[ratagonia]

Those are a little in right field but thats an alright argument to make.

Would it hurt the park(or canyoneering pride) to allow the Ranger, who was told at the Left Fork trailhead at 9 p.m. that there was an elderly couple still down there, to be able to do something? Besides say, "I'll see them in the morning?"

How much do you want permits to cost?

People come out of the Subway late, a LOT. Are you suggesting anytime a car is parked at the trailhead at dusk, the park rally a team with technical rescue capability to traverse the Subway?

I realize this accident tugs at the heartstrings... I am not heartless myself. But "personal responsibility" has real meaning in the Wilderness. This is not Disneyland. If you screw up out there you could get hurt or die. Generally when people break their leg or knee in the Subway, it takes 24 hours to get them out.

Several weeks ago, an elderly gentleman picked up a Subway permit, and started the hike in from the bottom. By 5 pm he had gotten halfway to the Subway and turned around. Hikers coming out told the ranger there was a guy in trouble down there. A ranger responded with overnight gear and food, found the guy and camped with him. The next day, the ranger helped the guy toward the trailhead. Working all day, they almost got to the foot of the hill. Camped again. Next day, NPS SAR team with help from Kane County and Washington County SAR executed a technical rescue to get him up the hill.

Appropriate response? I think so.

The key here is that a rescue was requested (by hikers coming out of the Subway).

Initiating a rescue everytime a car is parked overnight... wow. That would be expensive!!!

Tom

[jman]

Those are a little in right field but thats an alright argument to make.

Would it hurt the park(or canyoneering pride) to allow the Ranger, who was told at the Left Fork trailhead at 9 p.m. that there was an elderly couple still down there, to be able to do something? Besides say, "I'll see them in the morning?"

To do something? Launch a full 15pereon SAR in the night because there were some older folks that seem new to the sport or slow? Remember all the permit waiver you sign with all those checkboxes? Plural, not singular checkboxes, and not just 2 checkboxes but about 6 checkboxes. This is specifically keep the pressure on the user to make sure they are prepared. I think the tragedy is terribly sad and think its just series of unfortunate luck and timing.

You say it's a little in the right field when Tom mentioned airbags, and helicopters on standby...This is the backcountry, not the concrete jungle.

Speaking of the backcountry - I got bit by a mosquito tonight while jogging - who should I sue first, Kaysville city or the state for not warning about Mosquitos in the area. Tsk tsk.

[mtn_dude]

Hikers coming out told the ranger there was a guy in trouble down there. A ranger responded with overnight gear and food, found they guy and camped with him.

That's what I suggested about this past week.

I agree full fledged rescue missions shouldn't be sent everytime a car is left at a trailhead. But when a suggestion comes that someone might need help they could respond in like manner to the story you shared and didn't happen in last weeks situation.
This would make it clear that the permit system isn't just about limiting numbers and is there to provide a safety net for when things go wrong or people don't realize what they're in for with particular hikes.
We(a risk management class) joking suggested sending a ranger as a sweep later in the day, i'd take that job!

[Brian in SLC]

The thing about noticing slow folks is, that, overnight unplanned bivy's in Zion happen all the time with no consequences. Eh Tom? Eh Kip? Ha ha.

I still feel bad you camped in the woman's toilet at the TOS...

Back on track...yeah, folks can be slow. They get benighted. They're usually fine. This accident wasn't a "they were slow" thing. They had an accident. Way different. Hard to fault the park at all.

I don't want more ranger patrols in the backcountry. They take away from my "wilderness experience".

Slow is one thing. Having an accident another. Unplanned bivys...badge of honor. We all have them. I sure don't want SAR called out everytime my car is at a parking lot after dark. Damn, I'd have SAR looking for me all the time!

[ratagonia]

That's what I suggested about this past week.



The situation was different.

In the earlier case, the reporting party reported that the elderly gentleman needed rescue.

Was there any report about the elderly couple?

Tom

[SRG]

How is guiding people in a Park consumption?

Maybe "occupation" of a resource is a more appropriate word. The idea is still the same... National Park land is set aside for public enjoyment, not for private companies to make money off of.

[ratagonia]

That's what I suggested about this past week.

I agree full fledged rescue missions shouldn't be sent everytime a car is left at a trailhead. But when a suggestion comes that someone might need help they could respond in like manner to the story you shared and didn't happen in last weeks situation.
This would make it clear that the permit system isn't just about limiting numbers and is there to provide a safety net for when things go wrong or people don't realize what they're in for with particular hikes.

We (a risk management class) joking suggested sending a ranger as a sweep later in the day, i'd take that job!

Excuse me.

The permit system is there to limit social interactions, so people visiting the park will have the Wilderness experience the park has decided is appropriate for us.

The rest is window dressing and post-decision justification.

Are you volunteering? You have WFR or WEMT cert? How many days a week are you available?

Tom

[ratagonia]

The thing about noticing slow folks is, that, overnight unplanned bivy's in Zion happen all the time with no consequences. Eh Tom? Eh Kip? Ha ha.

I still feel bad you camped in the woman's toilet at the TOS...



I think you're crossing stories there... I spent the night at Big Bend on the tarmac, enjoying the stars and my 101 deg fever...

Tom

[ratagonia]

Maybe "occupation" of a resource is a more appropriate word. The idea is still the same... National Park land is set aside for public enjoyment, not for private companies to make money off of.

Intelligent people can disagree.

"Consumption" and "Occupation" are words of exclusive use. One problem with extractive industries is they tend to make the resource undesirable for all other users. National Forests - the Land of Many Uses - are an example. Once clear cut, the 'forest' is no longer of much use to anyone else for quite some time. Is this how you feel about guided groups?

People who prefer to use guides are members of the public too. The couple involved in this incident probably would have preferred being guided through the Subway, rather than taking a class, then self-guiding. Are you choosing to exclude these citizens from visiting The Subway because they lack the technical skills needed, that they could hire for a reasonable fee, were it allowed, because it offends your sense of propriety?

There is a family of deaf persons that we sometimes guide. Though they are competent canyoneers, they choose to do technical canyons with a hearing guide because it seems wise, and they can afford it. The Park has (on one occasion) given them a special use permit to be guided inside the Park. Does this offend your sense of propriety?

Visiting Yosemite, are you disgusted knowing that up there on El Cap, there is likely a pair of climbers, one of which is a professional climbing guide leading a client?

I find it a strange sense of propriety that professionals assisting citizens in visiting their national parks, catalyzing a deeper, more meaningful experience is somehow tawdry.

Perhaps you could include people who prefer to use guides INSIDE your tent of worthy persons.

Zion National Park and the Zion Field Institute lead interpretive hikes every day. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

The National Park has staff, to assist visitors. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

The highway through the Park is my shortest route to Springdale. Sometimes I drive through the Park to get to Springdale to pick up or drop off ropes or packs for customers. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

Inside Zion National Park is a hotel, with people working there, cooking burgers, cleaning rooms. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

:facepalm1:

Tom

[SRG]

Perhaps you could include people who prefer to use guides INSIDE your tent of worthy persons.

Hah, my "tent of worthy persons"? I made it clear that my argument was principle based and at no point did I judge the merits of hiring a guide.


There is a family of deaf persons that we sometimes guide.

C'monnnnn. Don't try and make it sound like I want to deny your deaf clients their right to see the canyons just because you and I have different views on the proper use of National Park lands. I think your deaf clients should be granted a special use permit without question every time they want to canyoneer.


I find it a strange sense of propriety that ... experience is somehow tawdry.

Again, I'm not judging the guide/guidee experience.


The National Park has staff, to assist visitors. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

The highway through the Park is my shortest route to Springdale. Sometimes I drive through the Park to get to Springdale to pick up or drop off ropes or packs for customers. Does this upset your sense of propriety?

I think these super polarized examples are inane. I understand that some commerce is going to happen in National Parks and I'm okay with it, I'm not an extremist. I do however feel that there is a line, and commercial guiding is over that line.

-Sam

[oldno7]

I'm sooo glad to see Tom encouraging guiding in the National park and utilizing it's resources!

Now about the guiding permit for deer, elk, mountain lion, bear harvest.

Or does Tom only selectively want guiding that benefits him and his millionaire boss?

Nah--couldn't be to help out the millionaire boss, both Tom and Hank despise rich folks.

So, back on subject, would guiding have saved this poor mans life?? We'll never know.

Was a guide companies teaching technique at least partly at fault? I say theres a case.

[ratagonia]

Hah, my "tent of worthy persons"? I made it clear that my argument was principle based and at no point did I judge the merits of hiring a guide.

-Sam

Yes you do.

I'm asking for an argument as to why this is something the people of America should not enjoy in their National Parks. (In most Parks, they do).

My apologies for the "extension to absurdity". But I am trying to tease out where you draw the line. OK as long as they are Park employees? Hotels OK but guides not?

The distinction makes no sense to me, so I look for you to look inside your head and explain why guiding is tawdry but other people making money off the tourists is not? Or which ones are and which ones are not.

----

I also am trying to point out that there is a LOT of commercial activities inside National Parks, so I wonder how this effects your experience and why you single out guides ando/or Zion for your argument of principle?

Tom

[Scott P]

We(a risk management class) joking suggested sending a ranger as a sweep later in the day, i'd take that job!

Then why don't you? Many of the rangers are volunteers anyway, are they not?

Also, having something like that may also produce more people that expect to be helped. "Hey lets start the Subway at noon. If we don't make it by dark, the ranger will come and help us".

Having assured (or percieved assurance) rescue causes people to take more risk. This has already been proven many times in many locations throughout the world, from the Himalaya to the Alps to our National Parks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, as far as guiding goes, my opinion is that the Subway is just too crowded/popular of a route to guide. It could be argued that the guide also has the same right as an independent person in doing the Subway, and that every person in the canyon is equal in making the canyon crowded, but the independent person (at least in theory) is there primarily to see the canyon/experience the beauty/challenge (which guides might also enjoy) rather than for employment. For every small group of clients, a guide would another person to an already popular route that has already seen the canyon many times and may not be there primarily to experience the canyon, while the clients and independent people would likely only go a few times a year at most. If the Subway wasn't so popular and didn't need quotas, it might be different. This is just my opinion and others may disagree.

[erial]

Am switching focus to a paragraph that has appeared in the news accounts: A canyoneer from a group that had passed the couple earlier in the day had called park dispatchers at 9 p.m. to tell them that at their current pace, Hosobuchi and his wife would probably have to spend the night in the canyon. Based on that, rangers began looking for the overdue couple on Wednesday morning and ran into Hosobuchi’s wife on the trail about 11:45 a.m. as she was hiking out.


I imagine that caller had just gotten into cel phone range when the call was made. Did the caller merely want to give the park a no cause for alarm heads up or was the caller anticipating that immediate assistance would be rendered. Might be enlightening to hear from that caller. Perhaps that group did offer to accompany the doctor and his wife and the couple indicated that they were prepared for a bivy if necessary and waved that group on.

In a case of a medical emergency such as a broken bone, I would think that an overtaking group would provide any assistance needed. Actually, I know they would because I've read of such accounts on this forum. But what do you do if you were to encounter someone headed for unplanned after dark travel. Do you offer up matches, flashlight, space blanket?

What if the person's not in immediate distress, but likely soon to suffer consequences of heat exhaustion or dehydration. Do you continue on your way hoping for the best or do you hang around offering support?

The doctor's spouse might ultimately tell the story of their last adventure together, but a lot of grief must be borne first.

[SRG]

why guiding is tawdry
I didn't imply that guiding was tawdry, I implied that it is a business transaction where one person pays someone else for a service. It's a private company charging for access to land... and because it is National Park land I think it's wrong.
In my mind a solution would be to have the guides work for the NPS. That way all the profits reaped from guiding would go to The Park Service(in theory "the people").

[2065toyota]

Please save me almighty government from anything bad that might every happen to me. And if it does, please send me a check in the mail for putting myself at risk and getting hurt. Without hunting there would be way fewer animals. Without guides there would be way fewer hikers. Without as many hikers there wouldn't be large "profitable" companies making all this cool and safe gear we use to explore new canyons and enjoy the existing ones. I am going to go as much as I can before the government and environmentalists shut all of it down on the slowly but methodial course they are on. When it comes down to it, we all need to join together to fight against these forces or hopefully you took a lot pictures that you can sit back and enjoy

[Iceaxe]

NPS Morning Report
Wednesday, September 26, 2012

Zion National Park (UT)
Man Dies In Canyoneering Accident

On Wednesday, September 19th, 2012 park rangers determined that Yoshio Hosobuchi, age 74, had died while descending the Left Fork of the North Creek, a popular canyoneering route known as The Subway. Rangers began to look for Hosobuchi and his wife, based on a report from another hiker who was concerned the couple might be caught by darkness. Rangers made contact with Hosobuchi’s wife on the trail who reported Hosobuchi had flipped upside down while rappelling the previous evening and she had been unable to free him. The couple was at the last obstacle of the technical portion of the canyon, a 15-foot rappel, and chose to use an anchor different from the one listed in the route description. The anchor they chose increased the difficulty of the rappel as the location is overhung, free-hanging and in an active waterfall. Hosobuchi’s wife completed the rappel first. Hosobuchi was using a Blue Water VT below his rappel device and attached to his leg loop as a backup. Hosobuchi began his rappel when he flipped upside down, possibly due to the weight of his pack. It appears that when Hosobuchi inverted, the VT slid into the rappel device and jammed it. Due to the overhung and free-hanging nature of the location, Hosobuchi had no leverage to assist in righting himself even after he dropped his pack and his wife pulled on the rope to attempt to move him sideways, towards a wall. Hosobuchi then attempted to free himself by cutting the waist belt of his harness. When he cut through the waist belt, the leg loops of his harness slid down and caught around his ankles and canyoneering boots. Hosobuchi was now hanging upside down from his ankles in an active waterfall approximately 6 feet off the ground. Hosobuchi’s wife repeatedly attempted to pull him free from his harness by pulling on his hands, but was unable to free him from the harness before leaving him to seek help. Rangers reached Hosobuchi in the late afternoon of September 19 and confirmed that he had not survived. A helicopter from the Grand Canyon recovered his body the following morning. Rangers worked closely with Washington County Sheriff’s office and the local medical examiner on the investigation.
[Submitted by Therese Picard, Canyon District Ranger]

[Deathcricket]

[QUOTE=erial;512115]Am switching focus to a paragraph that has appeared in the news accounts: A canyoneer from a group that had passed the couple earlier in the day had called park dispatchers at 9 p.m. to tell them that at their current pace, Hosobuchi and his wife would probably have to spend the night in the canyon. Based on that, rangers began looking for the overdue couple on Wednesday morning and ran into Hosobuchi

[2065toyota]

So it is the Z crew's fault again :lol8:

[ratagonia]

I didn't imply that guiding was tawdry, I implied that it is a business transaction where one person pays someone else for a service. It's a private company charging for access to land... and because it is National Park land I think it's wrong.

In my mind a solution would be to have the guides work for the NPS. That way all the profits reaped from guiding would go to The Park Service (in theory "the people").

Thank you for clarifying your position.

It is not paying "to access the land", it is paying for a certain specific expertise, that the buyer is willing to pay for.

I see how some could think that making money off of activities in a National Park is something we should not encourage. This is essentially ZNP's position, that commercial activities in the BACKCOUNTRY are inappropriate. It is somewhat anomolous in the NPS system, though, and it seems a bit strange to ME that in the ZNP plans, they don't even consider discussion of it, they state as fact (or perhaps, as policy) that commercial activity in the ZNP backcountry is inappropriate.

In many parks, there is commercial activity in the backcountry. In Grand Canyon National Park there is guided hiking and guided river rafting, as in, a LOT of guided river rafting. There is nothing in the Wilderness Act that prohibits commercial activity. There is nothing in the Organic Act and other Acts of Congress that prohibit or limit commercial activity in Wilderness areas or National Parks, but then it becomes part of the management plan for each unit as to how they approach commercial activity.

Thus, across the whole system, there is a lot of commercial activity in NPS Wilderness. I'm not sure what the point of pointing that out, other than that I hope you are not too disappointed that your viewpoint is not in effect in very many NPS units.

"In my mind a solution would be to have the guides work for the NPS. That way all the profits reaped from guiding would go to The Park Service (in theory "the people")."

So you are OK with people making a living by showing the Park to people, but have an objection to the capitalistic idea of people making a profit by creating the opportunity for people to make a living by showing the Park to people? Seems an odd distinction to make.

Anyone else interested in weighing in?

Tom

[2065toyota]

I don't see a big difference between "national park" "National forest". "BLM land". It is all land owned by the "government" that is protected for the people's use. Why one can be guided and others not is obviously not controlled by any law but only by the persons presiding over their specific tract of land. I love Zion and all national parks but I don't hold them in any higher regard than any other piece of land. I will guarantee that I've had more enjoyable times spent outside of parks than in. As long as it is fair to all involved then I am happy. Fair is definitely subjective but is usually located in the middle. Wilderness study areas right now are my biggest pet peave These areas are being closed to motor vehicle access which is only allowing a select few people who are willing to hike in to enjoy the areas. Canaan mountain being the closest to heart right now. There is an existing road that has been there for 100 years that is now shut down. I have been there a few times but now it's an 8 hour hike in. Totally illegal closure but it still happened. Snow Canyon state park is closed to off trail hiking. Does it end anywhere?Cedar Breaks is closed to making snowmobile tracks (yeah those last forever)

[erial]

Deathcricket,

The details you provided from the Z-crew as well as details contained within Iceaxe's post of the NPS report clarified my understanding of this accident. Thank you for your response. jeff

[Deathcricket]

Np here is a classic pic they took at the pools. Kinda weird to think a couple hours later a person is going to die not 50 feet behind them. Creepy IMO. :cold:

[mtthwlw]

Not Z crew's fault:lol8:... but probably my parents have something to do with it. It's a double edged sword. Without my parents, my wife and I would never get to go canyoneering (Trusting babysitters all day or overnight? Forget about it.)

Every time we are a little bit late getting out of a canyon (Heaps, one day late... Orderville 6 hours late with a friend's blown knee.... probably other canyons as well) my parents start calling the backcountry desk to send them out after us. My wife and I have never given them instructions to call-- quite the opposite. We usually give two times, best case and worst case. But my parents can't help but call a few hours after the best case. They worry because they are my parents; they worry because they don't want to raise my kids. I get it.

Blame me. There is no way SAR can mobilize every time everyone reports a missing, slow, or limping along party in a canyon. I'm sure my parents aren't the only ones out there who call in at the drop of the hat. (When we spent a night in Heaps a few years ago my dad got onto the internet and found this: http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/201003/slickrock.aspx this:http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/technical/preface/ and this:http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?26059-What-happened-in-Heaps-Canyon/page2
This is a man who regularly calls for help when he needs to search the internet. Why was he suddenly so able to search the internet on that night?) Reading about Ralston doesn't help either.

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I can't be the only one who has this problem. Can I? This last time through Imlay we told them that we would be 3 full days-- best case. They bought it.

[ststephen]

Don't forget all the commercial guiding in rafts in the Grand Canyon and other NP rivers. I've enjoyed both commercial and private rafting trips and I would not want to see the commercial ones banned. But, I would not argue that by inference all types of guiding should be allowed in all NPs. Teaching rock climbing at Yosemite; ice & snow climbing on Mt. Rainier; birding guides at South Padre Island. I think there's lots of places where it works well and makes sense. But I would not personally want to see it in Zion

[Brian in SLC]

NPS Morning ReportWednesday, September 26, 2012Zion National Park (UT)
Man Dies In Canyoneering Accident

Hosobuchi was using a Blue Water VT below his rappel device and attached to his leg loop as a backup. Hosobuchi began his rappel when he flipped upside down, possibly due to the weight of his pack. It appears that when Hosobuchi inverted, the VT slid into the rappel device and jammed it.

Hell of a tragic accident.


The BlueWater VT prusik was designed in conjunction with Rich Carlson of the American Canyoneering Academy specifically for canyoneering applications. A super tough and heat resistant Technora aramid sheath covers durable nylon core strands. Bartacked with our custom Technora thread for superior strength. Available exclusively from Canyons and Crags. Diameter: 8mm

Not that I'd care to get a knife anywhere near something like this, but, I've found that some of these materials, versus nylon, are really hard to cut. And, this VT rig is 8mm too. Thick. Probably not easy to cut free if need be. Hmmm. Not sure how viable that would have been if the autoblock had been 6mm or 7mm nylon...

I carry the Sterling hollow block thing for prusiking. Handy (have used to ascend a fixed rope). I think it'd be a bummer to try to cut off the rope. Maybe not possible without chopping the lead line.

What a horrible accident. I can't imagine...heavy sigh...(X 100).

[ratagonia]

I carry the Sterling hollow block thing for prusiking.

NOT suitable for that application.

With no core, once somewhat used, the Hollow Bloc has a very unknowable strength. We had one break in practice when one of our guides was using it as a prusik (fell to the floor, like 2 feet, no harm no foul).

So I would NEVER use them for prusiks. Very dangerous.

Used as an autobloc, they are below the rappel device and only experience "brake-hand" level of forces, not bodyweight.

Lack of general usefulness is a big reason ZAC converted to VT Prusiks... in the never-ending quest for the perfect autobloc cord. :naughty:

Tom

[spinesnaper]

I think ZNP did a good job of manipulating the Backcountry Management Plan to cut off any meaningful discussion of guiding in the backcountry.

"Due to the lack of demand for guided trips as well as the existing high levels of use, commercial use of the Primitive Zone is not appropriate."

1. The Park assessed demand for guided trips by surveying non-guided backcountry users, and found no demand. Not a surprise. (As a similar example, I have surveyed my Sierra Club friends, and find little support for Mr. Romney; therefore there is little support for Mr. Romney?);
2. The Park DECLARED that existing use levels in the backcountry were "high". They presented no evidence to support this claim. It is a declaration. I don't find use level in the backcountry to be high - in all but a few highly-sought after routes, use in the backcountry of Zion is extremely low.

In the Backcountry Plan, when the 'survey' supports the Park position, the Park makes it clear that 'the users voted' that way, as if it was a matter of tallying the votes. When the Park position is contrary to how the users 'voted', then the Park ignores the votes. So, the Park is very willing to use survey results as an EXCUSE for taking a particular action, but it is naive to claim that the Park takes ANY action because it represents the opinion of the populace. The Park does what it darn well pleases, and finds and excuse, however flimsy, whereever it can.

Tom

Tom

I am with you.

If you can hire a guide to take you up the Nose on El Capitan in Yosemite National Park, The Grand Teton in the Grand Teton National Park, or to the summit of Mt Rainer National Park, why shouldn't there be commercial guiding in Zion National Park?

This is really a policy that does not favor members of the public and their ability to enjoy the back country, especially visitors who live far from canyon country. Finding the subway without someone who has perviously been in the canyon is intimidating for example.

If the concern is that a guide service will use up all the permits, one can use the rule that is applied to the Wave: the client has to get their own permit and a license guide can accompany the client. (Obviously there are many other potential solutions).

Some of the benefits of having professional guides is modeling low impact canyoneering, anchor maintenance, increased surveillance in the canyon by requiring guides to carry appropriate radios.

Unfortunately, in my life time, I don't think I will ever see this in Zion National Park and I think that is a shame.

Ken

[Scott P]

Don't forget all the commercial guiding in rafts in the Grand Canyon and other NP rivers. I've enjoyed both commercial and private rafting trips and I would not want to see the commercial ones banned.

Not banned, but commercial trips do have an unfair advantage. Paying clients should have the same chance/waiting list (which has been mostly done away with) as private parties. To make it fair, commercial clients should have to get their own permits on trips that have big waiting list/lotteries.

My dad was on the waiting list for many, many years until they started charging to keep your name on there (which policies have again been modified). However, if you have thousands of dollars you can just sign up with a commerical tour immediately and and they are given preference (since they were hogging most of the permits). Not fair at all. Guided clients and private boaters should have equal chances for permits. It would be fair then.

[2065toyota]

I have been using my scrap pieces of the imlay 6mm pull cord for prusiks. It is slick at first but once it's broken in a little bit it seems to work well

[ratagonia]

I have been using my scrap pieces of the imlay 6mm pull cord for prusiks. It is slick at first but once it's broken in a little bit it seems to work well

The Imlay 6mm cord is designed to be hard and stiff. Other 6mm cord will work better as a prusik.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

NOT suitable for that application.

With no core, once somewhat used, the Hollow Bloc has a very unknowable strength. We had one break in practice when one of our guides was using it as a prusik (fell to the floor, like 2 feet, no harm no foul).

So I would NEVER use them for prusiks. Very dangerous.

Used as an autobloc, they are below the rappel device and only experience "brake-hand" level of forces, not bodyweight.

Whoa...really? Really? Mine seems burly, and, I've had two of them.

Sterling says:


The Hollow Block is a unique sewn prusik or climb heist made from our RIT 900™ cord. This hollow braid cord is made of 100% aramid fiber, giving it added strength, durability and gripping power on rope 7mm and larger. It is sewn with Sterling’s proprietary sewing pattern.

Strength is listed as 14kN.

Were you guys using older models, or, prototypes? They totally sell this thing for Prusiking with no restrictions.

Broke, as in, the sewing failed or the thing broke in the body?

Really?? Have you talked to Sterling? "Very dangerous"? Yikes.

And, I've jugged with it (in combo with a Gri Gri). Worked great.

[ratagonia]

Whoa...really? Really? Mine seems burly, and, I've had two of them.

Sterling says:



Strength is listed as 14kN.

Were you guys using older models, or, prototypes? They totally sell this thing for Prusiking with no restrictions.

Broke, as in, the sewing failed or the thing broke in the body?

Really?? Have you talked to Sterling? "Very dangerous"? Yikes.

And, I've jugged with it (in combo with a Gri Gri). Worked great.

Broke as in broke in the body.

Admittedly, a well-used one. I can see them being 14kN when new, but...

Technora abrades against itself. So, after a lot of use, a fair amount of those technora fibers are cut.

I would perhaps trust them when new, but it is hard to say when "when new" changes to the untrustworthy "no longer new".

I am surprised they say that.

Tom

[rcwild]

The Hollow Block is made with Sterling RIT, which is intended as a personal escape rope, single use only. Fireman use it to bail out of burning buildings. Aramid fibers have high melting points. In fact, Technora doesn't really melt; it starts to char around 950 degrees. Flex endurance issues don't matter if you're only going to use it once. Not sure why Sterling agreed to use this cord for an item that is expected to be used many times.

VT has a nylon core, so even if the aramid sheath fails you will still have the strength of the core to get you to the ground.

[ratagonia]

It should be noted that we use the Hollowblocs until they are fully used up.

Pic of some used ones - "close to retirement".

I doubt Mr. Cabe would consider using one of these as a prusik.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Wow, those are pretty chewed up. My thought is that a well set Prusik doesn't really slip much, while an autoblock slips by design, location and use.

Yeah, mine looks pretty new.

Good head's up, though. Thanks!

[hank moon]

Yeah, mine looks pretty new.

Once it goes beyond "very light fuzzing" and shows any sign of concentrated wear, however slight, I'd ditch it. Actually, i'd just ditch it now (unless used only for autobloc).

[summitseeker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPv8ElGqSW0&feature=youtu.be

Here is a video of the spot taken 12 days prior to the fatality.

[ratagonia]

Here is a video of the spot taken 12 days prior to the fatality.

Nice. That clarifies quite a bit.

Note, this is not "Keyhole Falls". Keyhole Falls is the rappel prior to this, where you rappel across the waterway from a small arch (the Keyhole). Some people downclimb through the Keyhole. When upclimbing, the easiest route is through the Keyhole.

Tom

[2065toyota]

The Imlay 6mm cord is designed to be hard and stiff. Other 6mm cord will work better as a prusik.

Tom


Structurally are there any problems with it? Just curious because we soon some practicing of climbing ropes and every person preferred the pull cord. I don't know exactly what we were comparing it to but they were pre seen cords for prusiks or autoblocks. I always had to use 4 wraps but I'm 200 lbs and it didn't slip and released well. I thought it would be better to use them since that rope isn't designed to absorb water. Thanks for the input

[Iceaxe]

Here is a video of the spot taken 12 days prior to the fatality.

Thanks for posting the video. :2thumbs:

FWIW: The video calls this waterfall "Keyhole Falls", which is incorrect. Keyhole falls is the rappel before this with the small arch (the keyhole).

[Iceaxe]

Note, this is not "Keyhole Falls". Keyhole Falls is the rappel prior to this, where you rappel across the waterway from a small arch (the Keyhole). Some people downclimb through the Keyhole. When upclimbing, the easiest route is through the Keyhole.

Leroyed.... :angryfire:

[ratagonia]

Structurally are there any problems with it? Just curious because we soon some practicing of climbing ropes and every person preferred the pull cord. I don't know exactly what we were comparing it to but they were pre seen cords for prusiks or autoblocks. I always had to use 4 wraps but I'm 200 lbs and it didn't slip and released well. I thought it would be better to use them since that rope isn't designed to absorb water. Thanks for the input

Hmmm, interesting...

No, no structural issue.

I don't use prusiks much, so I am not really "in" on the details, but I thought generally people like a softish prusik cord so it grabs well. My 6mm pull cord is quite hard; and maybe it works well because it does not grab all that well. You can always add wraps for more bite, while often the problem with prusiks is getting a consistent release.

Hmmm.

Tom

[Bootboy]

I don't know why so many people persist with prusiks as a friction knots...
There are myriad other knots that grab more readily, release much more predictably, don't bind, and are faster to tie. All equaling greater safety. The prusik has its place in rescue belays but I don't believe in it for personal safety applications...

[Kuya]

What are these other knots?

[Bootboy]

VT, distel hitch, swabish, MT, among others. The VT is probably the best.

[ratagonia]

There are several "rope grab" knots that work. At times, they are all called "Prusiks".

I like the Bachman knot myself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachmann_knot

There is also the Blake Hitch, and the Kleimheist, and...

a few are here:

http://www.animatedknots.com/blakes/index.php?Categ=climbing&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Tom

[ratagonia]

VT, distel hitch, swabish, MT, among others. The VT is probably the best.

VT?

[Brian in SLC]

VT?

Valdotain? Ie, French Prusik? I like it, but, for ascending a rope, its too spread out and slips too much for my liking. I still use a Prusik. Well dressed, works like a champ for me.

YMMV.

[Bootboy]

The Bachman is great.

I'm not listing these knots exclusively for ascending, more for autoblocks in the context of this discussion. They all have pros and cons, the idea is to have several in your repitoir and know which is best for specific applications.

[Mountaineer]

Valdotain? Ie, French Prusik? I like it, but, for ascending a rope, its too spread out and slips too much for my liking. I still use a Prusik. Well dressed, works like a champ for me.

YMMV.

Valdotain Tresse. Generally easier to release than a standard prusik. Will release under load. For ascending, best to use a 3/2 or 4/2 (wrap) Prusik.

59553

[Brian in SLC]

I need to get me one or two of them Bluewater valdy's... Nice picture.