What is the safest and easiest rappelling device?

[DiscGo]

So I made a mistake. I took my wife for her first rappelling trip and did BattleCreek Falls. She wasn't in the falls itself, but it was too loud to communicate properly and that left her with a lot of unanswered questions and concerns. She did it like a champ, but told me that she only endured it and did not enjoy it.

I am taking her Canyoneering next month with Deathcricket down in Zion and part of me is concerned that this may be the only trip she ever does. I want to make her feel as safe and solid as possible, so I am looking for some input in advance.

Currently I have a Pirana that I was planning on her using, but I am wondering if she would be better off with a Totem, or a grigri type device.

What do you guys suggest is the best device to make a complete newbie (with a fear of heights) feel safe and secure as they rappel down?

What advice would you give me to get her ready for next month?

Thanks

[Redpb]

I always thought the ATC was the easiest and safest for a beginner. Easy to understand, built in friction grips.

[Deathcricket]

I think pirana. ATC would be 2nd choice. I've noticed noobs tend to bounce on the ATC though and it freaks them out. I'll bring both if you want and she can try them out. I think the more important thing is to give them a hard active belay and constant words of encouragement and instructions. If they make even the tiniest mistake I tend to stop them, not because they need to be stopped but just to reassure them I WILL stop them at the slightest problem they have. Once the nerves quite down it's easier for them to learn, but the first thing is to make them feel safe and secure.

Edit: looking forward to the trip! *thumbs up*

[hank moon]

Hi Discgo

Nothing takes the edge off fear like repetition. If you can get on rope with her at least once a week (preferably more) and experiment with various devices and techniques (in a "controlled" environment), the ideal device choice - for her - may reveal itself while increasing her confidence. My first rap was about 12 feet (between two levels of a switchbacked trail) and it was all I could do at the time.

Some general advice:

- Talk it over so that you are both sure she really wants to do it. Without genuine motivation, fear will take over.

- Educate: before rappelling, make sure she understands the role and correct use of the various pieces of gear in the system. A good understanding helps reduce fear.

- Start out very, very easy - like, horizontal, even. Just to get a feel for the gear, leaning back against the rope, etc.

- Demo + use the fireman's belay so that she is confident that there is a backup system, and that it works. Emphasize that letting go of the brake line is a 'never-do'

- If needed, experiment with rapping down side by side, perhaps joined by a tether. Sometimes an accompanied rappel is all it takes to instill enough confidence to go solo.

- Develop and use a good communication system at all times. Being on rope can be lonely/scary and good communication helps stave off fear. Whistles and hand signals are often necessary in Class C environments.

- The device alone doesn't matter so much. What does matter is learning how to manage friction and having good body position and reflexes while on rappel (especially when negotiating edges): her bodyweight, the interaction between device and rope (wet/dry, double/single, old/new, clean/dirty, etc.), extra friction settings, extending the device, etc. The whole system. I suggest using a variable friction device* (e.g. Pirana) instead of something fixed (e.g. ATC). An extended device is generally easier to manage, especially for beginners, provided the anchor point is high enough to avoid awkward starts (low-position anchors can often be 'comfortized' - or raised - by another team member).

Anyone got stuff to critique, add, subtract?

[2065toyota]

Show her an 8. An Atc. An ats. A pira

[2065toyota]

On a side note. It was nice knowing you since now that your part of the z team we may not see you again:haha:

[DOSS]

I would stay away from the gri gri etc.. keep it simple.. heck if you are that worried get a rack (http://www.karstsports.com/33401.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=20503017361&utm_content=pla&gclid=CPTmicKDsbICFUjhQgodv0IAnQ) there is nothing simpler... Then take her to a climbing gym or a some of the raps up rock canyon and practice before she feels pressure while on a big trip

[hank moon]

[QUOTE=2065toyota;510471]Show her an 8. An Atc. An ats. A pira

[hank moon]

I would stay away from the gri gri etc.. keep it simple.. heck if you are that worried get a rack (http://www.karstsports.com/33401.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=20503017361&utm_content=pla&gclid=CPTmicKDsbICFUjhQgodv0IAnQ) there is nothing simpler... Then take her to a climbing gym or a some of the raps up rock canyon and practice before she feels pressure while on a big trip

X2 to no Grigri and KISS....but a rack can be hard to manage for a beginner, and has the same failure mode as a fig. 8. (see post, above).

The ultimate variable friction device is perhaps the standard 14" brake bar rack with stainless bars, but I would not recommend it for a beginner unless the anchors are set up high, the instructor expert in its use, and the student highly motivated and given time to learn the subtleties of setup and friction management.

[Iceaxe]

I put my entire family on ATC-XP's (I actually use an ATC-XP Guide, but same thing really) because that is what I use, it is what I know best, and it's what I'm most comfortable with.... and it's always nice when the entire group is using the same rappel devise. It makes rigging and setting friction super easy because I know the devise inside and out. It's also nice with beginners when the first person down can verify the friction was set correctly for those who will follow.

With beginners if the group is using vastly different rappel devises you can create issues, because what works well with an ATC doesn't work well with a Pirana, which doesn't work well with a stitch plate.

YMMV :cool2:

[hank moon]

With beginners if the group is using vastly different rappel devises you can create issues, because what works well with an ATC doesn't work well with a Pirana, which doesn't work well with a stitch plate.

Great point! Easier to reinforce good technique when every group member can potentially model for the others.

[DiscGo]

On a side note. It was nice knowing you since now that your part of the z team we may not see you again:haha:

What is the z team?

[DiscGo]

I know that ATCs are great for belaying, but I had heard they are kind of scary to rappel with. Is that not so?

[Iceaxe]

I know that ATCs are great for belaying, but I had heard they are kind of scary to rappel with. Is that not so?

An ATC is just as good as everything else for rappeling. Every devise has it's up side and it's down side, it's more about which devise do you know best.

[Iceaxe]

What is the z team?

I think he just called you a n00b.... :lol8:

In a fun sorta way.... and it's a reference to certian canyoneers referring to their cadre as the "A-team".... which either means they are superior to everyone else.... or they are a bunch of chest thumping Asshats... depending on who you ask....

:popcorn:

[2065toyota]

What is the z team?

Thats is Jake's self imposed team name. It's all in good fun. I've been with him before and he is coming with us on Saturday. I am similar to Shane in that my entire family including me uses an ATC and everyone knows how to use it. It is very easy to add and subtract friction to and is simple to operate. The only time an ATC is choppy is when using the high friction side which was designed for belaying not rappelling. Add caribeners or leg loops to change it up. I carry an ATS as my backup device. If you want to try an ATC I can send one with Jake on Saturday to try out before you buy one

[2065toyota]

I agree that "they all work" but some devices are easier to use than others. I would avoid the 8 as it is more difficult to manage properly. Easier to drop and it has a nasty failure mode:

http://goo.gl/Y3Mxp

More interesting stuff:

http://goo.gl/IuRjk

Note: the Totem, brake bar rack, Robot, and other large-eye devices are also susceptible to this failure mode (inward loading on the carabiner gate).

Everything has a "nasty failure mode" if not used correctly. I don't like 8's either because they twist the rope alot, but if someone feels comfortable using it then go for it. In the history of climbing and rapelling I would assume the 8 has done more descents than all the rest combined. It definitely is old school technology though. The setup for a newcomer is a lot the group leaders responsibility until the person is comfortable with themselves.

[DiscGo]

If you want to try an ATC I can send one with Jake on Saturday to try out before you buy one

Thanks. I have an ATC from rock climbing. I have just not really used it for rappelling. I will go rappelling with it, and check it out. Thank you again for the offer. That is way cool of you!

[hank moon]

Everything has a "nasty failure mode" if not used correctly.

Very true. Especially the very common letting-go-of-the-brake-line nasty failure mode. However, the point I wanted to make was that the 8 has an obscure failure mode not shared with many other common devices (Pirana, ATC) and so is less beginner-friendly. Earlier post edited to clarify that.

[hank moon]

Thanks. I have an ATC from rock climbing. I have just not really used it for rappelling. I will go rappelling with it, and check it out. Thank you again for the offer. That is way cool of you!

There are so many ATC models floating around these days, it's hard to keep track:


- original ATC
- ATC-XP (2 versions)
- ATC-Guide (2 versions)


Each model has different friction (and other) characteristics. The original ATC is the simplest, and gives the least friction. ATC-XP gives the most friction, with the Guide somewhere in between (but substantially more than the ATC-O).

[flatiron]

Thanks. I have an ATC from rock climbing. I have just not really used it for rappelling. I will go rappelling with it, and check it out. Thank you again for the offer. That is way cool of you!

HMMMMMM. What rock climbing did you do and NOT rappel? All basic rock climbing classes teach how to rappel.

Don't worry about devise, worry about human (error). Like Hank said, get out and practice, practice, practice. Start nooby on belay or fireman belay. Then practice.

[DiscGo]

HMMMMMM. What rock climbing did you do and NOT rappel? All basic rock climbing classes teach how to rappel.
.

We would only have the person below using the ATC as they belayed. The actual climber did not have an ATC as they climbed. But I get your point.

[Slot Machine]

Can we have a laugh at the poll now? :lol8:

I wish you would have included "man hands" or "nipple ring" in the survey just to see if they beat the GriGri. Piranha is spelled... oh nevermind. :haha:

To be helpful, the ATC-XP is my current favorite, followed closely by the Piranha. On a really fat rope (10.8mm) the ATC-XP hops and is quite scary. When using the Canyon Fire (8.3mm) it works great.

When rapping double stranded with a Piranha, occasionally one of the ropes will slip off one of the horns and is a little disconcerting. I've never had the rope creep at the top or anything, but when I'm hanging there my eyes are looking up at the ropes as I move.

Single stranded the Piranha is great but twists the rope a bit.

My wife really likes the good old fashioned ATC. She is very light, so the minimal friction works great for her.

[ghawk]

x2 on practicing in low stress areas. Having somebody start in water can be a little nerve racking. I always take my friends up rock canyon here in the Provo area because there are easy to get to rappel anchors and more controllable situations. As far as device? lots of stuff works :2thumbs:

[Taylor]

Petzl Pirana is my device of choice. My wife prefers her ATC.

Here is a sub-poll: When using an 8, do you loop around the neck or clip the loop into the carabiner?

[Iceaxe]

Here is a sub-poll: When using an 8, do you loop around the neck or clip the loop into the carabiner?

Clipping the biner with an 8 is an accident waiting to happen as the system can buckle... which is why the pirana requires a special biner (it prevents the system from buckling).


Sent using Tapatalk

[nefariousdeeds]

IMO an 8 is better than an ATC for a pure noob, some people don't like the 8s because after a lot of use they tend to mess up the sheathing on your rope. But if you want a basic , slow rap. An 8 will be even slower than an ATC.

I have the Mammut Alpine Belay device an ATC and an 8. I find myself just rapping off my 8 most of the time.

[hank moon]

Clipping the biner with an 8 is an accident waiting to happen as the system can buckle... which is why the pirana requires a special biner (it prevents the system from buckling).

Clipping the 'biner is considered essential in class C to avoid accidental girth hitch formation, which has resulted in death (drowning, hypothermia). The Pirana was developed to alleviate this problem, as well as the aforementioned carabiner failure mode.


IMO an 8 is better than an ATC for a pure noob, some people don't like the 8s because after a lot of use they tend to mess up the sheathing on your rope. But if you want a basic , slow rap. An 8 will be even slower than an ATC.

An 8 is not the best choice for a beginner b/c it has the above failure modes which other devices (Pirana, ATC) don't have.

If you need more friction on an ATC, you can use two carabiners to attach the device to the harness, or extend, or z-rig, etc. This provides more than enough (note: can be too much) friction for most users.

[reflection]

Thanks to Hank for his wise voice, insight and message. He should be a counselor, NO, a politician.

I've been involved with many youth (and adults) over the past decade, in rap training. Going to take a newbie out on a venture? Do some "down home" practice first! Some that are very athletic, have a mindset that a firemans is going to absolve any concern and that pick up the practice fast - can adapt in a canyon setting. But for most, I'd practice away from the canyons and in a quiet controlled setting. AND I'd show the person how to wrap the rope around their back and leg to come to a STOP position, and show them what happens when a leg biner is used; and what happens (with an ATC) when two identical biners are used. Let them learn about friction and what happens when the rope is heavy (top of a rap vs. bottom of a rap). Another matter - rope, slope, weight. What ropes are you going to use. If beefy double strand 9, some folk have difficulty in putting the rope through and in going down a line on an ATC. (I use ATC's a lot). Anyway, plan ahead, practice on different ropes, 8, 9, double, single strand...and do it first simply walking back from a tree for example, on flat ground. Accidents happen and some folk turn their backs on events after too much trama. (same thing happens in some relationships.) Good luck in the canyons, and of course with your partner.....I'd make certain the big or tiny terror ramps way down before the trip, OR, I'd not have her or you go at all. Not worth the short or long term consequence.

If using an 8, double strand, I'd probably go with an ATC XP; If going with a 9 single strand, the same. If using a 9, double strand, I might try an Omega Pacific SBG (bigger port for the line). OR with double strand 9, maybe a pirana? BUT, I'd have her practice all of these out first (at home) before making a final decision, and there, SHE can be involved in the decision making process.

[Iceaxe]

Thanks to Hank for his wise voice, insight and message.

Hank is like having your very own MacGyver when it comes to gear..... :2thumbs:

58660

[Scott Card]

I am a Pirana guy. No fussing with clipping on and off the device. Seems like I have to re-teach the ATC more often than the Pirana. Noobs like to add A LOT of friction too. :haha:

[Eric Holden]

I have used most types of rappel devices, including the 4 carabiner thing, and even a munter hitch, but I <3 my Pirana.

[hank moon]

Hank is like having your very own MacGyver when it comes to gear..... :2thumbs:

If only i had his hair...

[Iceaxe]

If only i had his hair...

I'm just trying to picture you with a mullet. :lol8:

And if you had the mullet you would have to buy a Camero to cruise around in......

[ratagonia]

Piranha is spelled... oh nevermind. :haha:


A Piranha is a fish.

A Pirana is a rappelling device made for canyoning by Petzl. :haha:

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

What Hank said...

To me, the most important aspect is to train using exactly one device, the device YOU know backwards forwards upside down etc.

First training should be done far away from any cliff. The cliff creates fear - fear is the mind killer. By training away from any source of stress, the noob will then have training to reach for and apply when they are becoming overwhelmed by fear.

Personally, I think the Pirana is the easiest to train people on. ATC-XP is good, but the progressive modes of friction are complicated.

You will also want to standardize on a specific style (ie, speed) of rope. No reason to complicate things by having to learn the correct setting for two different rope styles.

1950's style Figure of Eight has the carabiner-breaking mode that kills the rappeller - hard to say how many deaths a year result from this. It also tends to be a low-friction device (compared to a Pirana or ATC-XP) so is unlikely to be suitable for use with modern USA canyoneering ropes - at least, any rope that I make.

The ATC has a 'common'-death-error. Last I looked, it kilt about 3 people a year in the USA. It is the miss-clipping-both-ropes with the carabiner thing, and in many cases, the dying climber also takes the ropes with him (or her)! Bad juju. (clarification: miss-clipping one of the two ropes)

The Pirana has a 'common'-surprise-error too. On awkward rappel starts, with the rope unweighted and the device bouncing around some, the rope can come out from around one or both horns, so when the rappeller puts their weight onto the rope, they get WAY less friction than they expect. WATCHOUT for this. In these circumstances, it is a good idea to check the setting of the Pirana just before plopping one's weight onto the device. A bottom belay is a good preventive action when the rappel start is awkward.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I always thought the ATC was the easiest and safest for a beginner. Easy to understand, built in friction grips.

The poll would be a lot more useful if it included the ATC.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Interesting inputs...

Because I spend more time climbing, I prefer an ATC (in any form) for rappelling as its the device that a climber will have for belaying too. And, teaching someone to rappel on an ATC translates well with them learning to belay too (same device, hand position, cautions about brake hand, etc).

Figure eight, for canyons, has kinda gone the way of the dodo a bit. Useful to know as some of us carry them for contigency rigging so they'll be available for backing up a ATS or Pirana. Figure eight in standard sizes has way less friction, IMHO, than any ATC.

Kinda depends on rope diameter and whether there's water flow or not (ie, water flow into a pool). For most stuff around Zion, I think either an ATC or Pirana/ATS can work, with matching to a rope diameter maybe as important. Sending a beginner rappeller down on a single strand of 8mm Canyon pro with a Pirana might be bad.

Concur on the mileage comments. Until someone looks competant, I'd belay them.

Another deal...I think learning how to rappel is as or more important than whatever device is used. I think it can be hard to teach, and, hard to learn. Given all the options for rap devices, rigging for additional friction options, steepness, rope diameter...it can be both hard to impart knowledge and hard to figure it out.

Be safe out there!

[reflection]

OK, not only Hank, but Shane, Tom and Brian have stars on their head for their acumen in this area. I guess the message is that there are different views and that safety trumps most everything.

There are different angles though to the process. Who participates in the climbing, caving or canyon game and once they commit, who and what should teach them, just what basic elementary processes? And is the commercial guiding instruction the same as private?

Some people that are way scared, or pyschologically challenged when on rope, need to be treated differently in my view. A simple device - pirana - that is run single strand, with the knowledge that a firemans will be "below". This works for a lot of them.

Other's though/ and I think that includes most, want/need to understand the concept of friction; and in a practice setting visually see what happens when a rope slides single strand or double strand through a variety of devices. Here you have folk of potentially various sizes (weight) and they then learn/decide what might best work for them - or least they see alternatives.

The flip side of all this is for a group of 12 to show up in Moab and the first rap is over Morning Glory Arch; Adults are given a figure 8 and the rope is run single strand through the device. Part way down the adult riders scream - need more friction.
I've heard all about it from adults I live near or work with. I ask them, did your leaders ever show you other devices and talk with you about friction? They always say NO.

In a commercial setting, or in water canyons, I guess the pirana is an easy device to teach.

In a back yard setting or crag wall though, with picnic tables (where you can show gear) and bolts/trees where you can hook ropes, folk can in they wish, try out different devices and run them both single and double strand. And they are shown how to stop if need be.

In a commercial setting, I believe I understand that folk need to be "treated" differently. Outside of that though, if there is time and interest, many folk really want to learn a whole host of tricks and options, and this pyschologically in my view, heightens their attention and causes them to pay attention - privately - to safe efficient friction when setting up and sliding down ropes.

Also, matching devices to ropes. (rope, slope, weight) If using skinny 8m lines single strand lines and five folk are lined up with all different weights. What device should they use. The single one they were trained on? The pirana? If there is a firemans below, then it's all academic? (Doesn't always work that way though in my view). If folk are on a long (100 ft or more) free hang, they can be comfortable and efficient or they can be distressed and can't get down the rope or they are sliding too fast (in their mind) even with a firemans. I've seen this happen too many times.

Training methods differ. Time allocated, circumstances, commerical, private. The original post related to training a family member. I viewed that as private training. I'd try to educate the person, show easy options in an effort to calm the psychological bar and then proceed as far as the victim (no trainee) senses they want to go. I understand, some will start and then stay with a pirana....but if you have a person that wants to learn....then my, the bounds of creativity remain to be unexplored.

[ilipichicuma]

For noobs I prefer the ATC-XP, just because it's so simple and really easy to check. I still find myself using it the majority of the time, especially on double strand raps.

[Brian in SLC]

ATC XP can have plenty of friction...demonstrated here by Tracey on the last rap to the deck on Devil's Castle last weekend. Set of double ropes. 9-ish-mm.

Kids, don't try this at home (no back up)...

58933

(Good to see you up there MB!)

[KanyonKasey]

When I rappelled for the first time I used an 8, same as when I was in basic. When I got into it again I used an ATC original. I have been using the ATC ever since I found it easy to use and easy to show others. The dangers are what the others have said, forgetting to strand the rope through the biner. Another issue is if you rappel into water, you can lose the device when trying to unhook. I have used it to belay as well so it is good to have for climbing as well. I dont know much about the other devices so I can say anything about them.

Here is a review video on the totem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFidtjRrqLg&list=PLXCBEmSjzTrnpPAaevXuY_jwOl0evUFK9&index=2&feature=plpp_video

[Iceaxe]

Another issue is if you rappel into water, you can lose the device when trying to unhook.

Actually..... if you know what you are doing the ATC should never come off your biner so you should never drop it.

When you unclip open your biner and flip the rope out, but leave the wire thingy attached to the biner at all times. It's easy with a little practice.


Sent using Tapatalk

[2065toyota]

I carry a short quick draw on my left gear loop and when doing a water disconnect clip it to the Atc before disconnecting just in case. It is also nice because when hiking you can also clip it in and your biner and Atc are held tight to you instead of bouncing around

[ilipichicuma]

Actually..... if you know what you are doing the ATC should never come off your biner so you should never drop it.

When you unclip open your biner and flip the rope out, but leave the wire thingy attached to the biner at all times. It's easy with a little practice.

Wire thingy. Definitely a technical term. :lol8:

[optikal]

I use a Sterling ATS and love it! It's really quick for getting on/off the rope, and water disconnects are not a concern. I like having the friction horns, makes locking off a breeze and it allows for a variety of ways to adjust friction on-the-fly. I usually rap with it in low friction mode, but it is always comforting to know if I know I'll need more friction, I flip it 'up' and it's in high friction. I also like having the tube-style attachment if I ever want to go that route. I see it more as a swiss army knife of devices, with a plethora of rescue/self rescue options; it goes with me on every climbing trip for that very reason. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend it to a beginner. As mentioned before, KISS. For beginners, I hand them an ATC.

[shan1203]

I am still beginner-ish and I love the simplicity of the ATC. Why complicate things?

I love my GriGri for belaying, but I find it to be awkward as a rappel device.

[Eric Holden]

I love my GriGri for belaying, but I find it to be awkward as a rappel device.

I have rappelled on my GriGri before.... horrible experience. A grigri has its uses, mainly for top rope and for top belaying but for belaying a climber on lead, doable, but also not very fun.