Pull Cord Management

[oahu_canyoneer]

Hey all, I've got a question I haven't seen addressed here yet. How do you manage your pull cord for large drops? Do you feed it out of a bag while rappelling?

I'm planning a trip out here on the islands that includes both a 300ft and 500ft drop and am shuffling through ideas on the most efficient way to get the pull cord to the bottom. I'm going to be using 550 paracord for the pull line which is a pain to work with (not ideal, but all I have). My thought so far is to have the paracord on a spool, attach one end of the cord to a gear loop of the first rappeller, and unspool it from up above as they descend. It seems to me that is would be easier than having the rappeller deal with it and/or deal dealing with any kinks coming out of a rope bag. Thoughts? Anyone utilize a better method? Thanks.

[Deathcricket]

Yeah that makes sense to me. Only problem would be that you would have to unwind everything. So it might be easier to just have your 1st person rapping unspool it as they go. That way you can keep the extra in the spool.

One tip I would give though is to make sure you can actually pull the rope smooth before the last guy is down. That much pull string that far you might have some flexing issues or snags. And it's best to find that out while you still have a guy or two up top. Best bet is if you can pull 10 feet through, you're good IMO.

[oahu_canyoneer]

Yeah thanks for the tip. Testing out the pull before the last person rappels could be a lifesaver.

If the person rappelling has the spool, the question is how to rig it so that they can rappel while unspooling it easily? I guess I should try out some rigs. Also, is the EDK going to be fine for joining the pull line to our rappelling rope or is there another preferred way? Is it possible the pull line could pull through since there is such a difference in diameter between the two?

[hank moon]

a basic, tangle-resistant way to deploy pull cord, which works only when the terrain allows:

get people down the drop, move rap rope well L or R of the fall line and hold it in position, anchor and toss pull cord in direction well away from rap rope. Allow rap rope to return to fall line, while keeping pull cord away from it.

I would not ever plan to use 550 cord to pull a rope, however, esp. if I needed that rope to exit the canyon. A knotted, wet 550 cord is gonna hold probably less than 200 lbs when new, and be easily severed on sharp/abrasive rock. Way too risky for me. Also , I bet that stuff gets noodly as hell when wet - a handling nightmare in short lengths, much worse at 500'. Please consider carefully and test before you go. A decent pull cord isn't that much $$.

Using the rap rope as a guideline and "zipping" the pull cord down it in a bag (suspended well below the guideline) might also work, but I haven't tried it on such a long drop. YMMV

[Iceaxe]

I have my doubts that 550 para cord will be strong enough to retrieve a 500' rappel rope. It normally takes some really effort to get a long rappel rope to pull.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Slot Machine]

Yeah thanks for the tip. Testing out the pull before the last person rappels could be a lifesaver.

If the person rappelling has the spool, the question is how to rig it so that they can rappel while unspooling it easily? I guess I should try out some rigs. Also, is the EDK going to be fine for joining the pull line to our rappelling rope or is there another preferred way? Is it possible the pull line could pull through since there is such a difference in diameter between the two?

The EDK might come undone if the pull line and the rappelling rope are not the same diameter. That's how the EDK got it's name. Since you are probably going to use a biner block at the top, just tie your pull cord to the blocking biner. Or maybe use a rethreaded figure 8.

Also, Tom had a great suggestion on a recent thread, use a Petzl Oscillante pulley at the top of those two long drops instead of a rapid link. Yeah, you will have to leave em' behind, but I bet you will thank yourself when you are pulling down 500 feet of rope.

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/petzl/oscillante/

[dougr]

Also, Tom had a great suggestion on a recent thread, use a Petzl Oscillante pulley at the top of those two long drops instead of a rapid link.http://www.trailspace.com/gear/petzl/oscillante/

Or even simpler and safer, a Petzl Ultralegere (http://www.rei.com/product/799043/petzl-ultralegere-pulley) on a 'biner or large rapid, which I've used once on a very long pull. I personally wouldn't like to rap off the oscillante, knowing its axle is the only thing between me and cratering. Unless there's some other setup method mentioned in his suggestion.

[Mojave Silence]

I have my doubts that 550 para cord will be strong enough to retrieve a 500' rappel rope. It normally takes some really effort to get a long rappel rope to pull.

Sent using Tapatalk
Especially a WET 500' rap line, which I'm assuming it will be if your doing this in Hawaii. Which island you doing this on? You should get ahold of "RenAtomic808" on this forum, he's a very capable canyoneer on Maui

[oahu_canyoneer]

Thanks for the input guys. You've given me a lot to think about. I guess the general consensus is that it's not worth the risk of trying to use paracord for drops this big. I'm gonna see if I can round up some more ropes to join together to use as the pull line. There will be four of us so we'll have to just plan on each carrying a section of rope with us. The question is who gets to carry the 600 footer I have...:haha:

[moab mark]

If the 500' rappel is the last one and if you can access it from the bottom? I would stash my 600' and bring two 250's and rappel and lower the first guy down. Then pull the big rope up and use the two 250's for the pull side. Hauling 600' of rope would be miserable.

[oahu_canyoneer]

Ugh. That sounds like an amazing idea moab mark but unfortunately there are still 3 waterfalls after the 500'. It's a series of 10 waterfalls and the 300 and 500 are smack dab in the middle of it all, sitting back to back, which is why I was originally trying to get by with paracord.

We've made a few trips to the upper portion of the falls and eventually down until we hit the top of the 300', but once you go down that sucker you're committed. We've still got a couple weeks till our scheduled descent though, so I'm just working on ironing out all the wrinkles.

[moabmatt]

It's a series of 10 waterfalls and the 300 and 500 are smack dab in the middle of it all, sitting back to back, which is why I was originally trying to get by with paracord.

In my opinion, this is exactly why you don't want to try and get by with paracord. Use something stronger and less stretchy (ie, a real rope) in such a critical location to help ensure a successful retrieval. It seems canyoneers are already having a difficult time legally enjoying the beauty of Hawaii. Stranded canyoneers would generate bad press. Yeah, it'll be heavier, but the peace of mind will be worth it. I'm assuming that everyone in a group contemplating a first descent with those kinds of drops is gonna be strong and competent, so carrying a slightly heavier load shouldn't be that big a deal.

Instead of paracord, I'd use a 300' rope and a 100' rope (8mm minimum, in my opinion). Use the 300' on the 300' rap and deploy your 600' that's stacked in a pack as the pull cord. That way if you get a core shot you won't jeopordize you're ability to get down the 500' rap. You can even place the bend of the two ropes on the rappelling side of the rapide for all but the last guy down so that you can creep the 300'er to save wear and tear (this also provides a contingency anchor if necessary). Don't use your 600' on the shorter upcanyon drops, either, so you know you'll have an intact rope for the big drop. I've never been to Hawaii, but if the canyons are like those on the other volcanic islands I've been to then I suspect the rock is not easy on ropes. Use your 600' rope on the 500' rap with the other two ropes tied together for the pull cord. I would creep the rope on this rappel, too, so no core shots develop for the last guy down. If the last guy down uses a biner block on this big rappel, remember that it's sometimes difficult getting the jammed up biner block to "unstick" itself from the rapide (which is another great reason to not use paracord).

Have Fun!

[ratagonia]

Or even simpler and safer, a Petzl Ultralegere (http://www.rei.com/product/799043/petzl-ultralegere-pulley) on a 'biner or large rapid, which I've used once on a very long pull. I personally wouldn't like to rap off the oscillante, knowing its axle is the only thing between me and cratering. Unless there's some other setup method mentioned in his suggestion.

Mmmm. Not for me.

The Oscillante is ONLY good for 15 kN (about 3500 lbs) - yougoddaproblemwiddat? (Me - I don't. I think 15Kn is plenty strong (works for my harness) and I have a great deal of trust in Petzl's QA systems.)

I tried the Ultralegere for awhile, and found it seriously wanting. For it to work, the rope would need to stay on it - which seems highly unlikely. My experience was that even in the simplest cases, the rope would not stay on the pulley.

Tom

[oahu_canyoneer]

Instead of paracord, I'd use a 300' rope and a 100' rope (8mm minimum, in my opinion). Use the 300' on the 300' rap and deploy your 600' that's stacked in a pack as the pull cord. That way if you get a core shot you won't jeopordize you're ability to get down the 500' rap. You can even place the bend of the two ropes on the rappelling side of the rapide for all but the last guy down so that you can creep the 300'er to save wear and tear (this also provides a contingency anchor if necessary).

I'm new to the saying "creep the rope." I'm assuming it means to adjust the anchor point on the rope so that the same portion isn't always on the lip of the drop? Luckily the 300' has a sloping lip so it shouldn't be much of a problem there. The 500' has more of a straight drop off so checking the abrasion will definitely have to be more of a concern.

I can't say I'm an expert on contingency anchors. I've played around with using a munter as a contingency before but in general don't use them. Setting up a contingency for a 500' drop kinda gives me the heebie geebies but I guess it's because I like the feeling of being "tied off" (or on a biner block if I'm last). I guess you get used to it the more you use it though...

The plan now is to use a 300' and 200' (one static one dynamic) as the pull line for the 500' drop and my 600' rope as the pull line for the 300' drop. I'm thinking about getting a smaller rope to use in place of the 200' for the pull line so that we still have the 200' as a backup in case all the ropes get caught up on the 500' while trying to pull it down.

[maarten.1975]

The plan now is to use a 300' and 200' (one static one dynamic) as the pull line for the 500' drop

Being still an unexperienced canyoneer compared to many on this forum, I do have my doubts about using a dynamic rope as (one of the 2 ropes to use as) a pull-line/ pull cord..... the rope you are trying to pull is simply your life-line during that day..... I wouldn't wanna risk any avoidable trouble with that.....

[ratagonia]

Being still an unexperienced canyoneer compared to many on this forum, I do have my doubts about using a dynamic rope as (one of the 2 ropes to use as) a pull-line/ pull cord..... the rope you are trying to pull is simply your life-line during that day..... I wouldn't wanna risk any avoidable trouble with that.....

Completely Agree.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I'm seeing a lot of very experianced canyoneers suggesting your planned use of paracord is a very bad idea. You would do well to heed their advice.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Kishkumen]

I have read the above threads and a lot of good advice has been given. However, the terrain and type of repel need to be taken into consideration. Is it free, over rocks, wet, around brush/trees, grooves in the rock where you pull, etc. Doing repels of that length are very dangerous. It would be good if all your party members have done long repels prior to this. You should also be very concerned with the repel technique you use. Many people underestimate the difficulty of long repels. Overheating and losing control of the repel is often a problem. It sounds like an awesome trip...be safe!:crazy:

[oahu_canyoneer]

Being still an unexperienced canyoneer compared to many on this forum, I do have my doubts about using a dynamic rope as (one of the 2 ropes to use as) a pull-line/ pull cord..... the rope you are trying to pull is simply your life-line during that day..... I wouldn't wanna risk any avoidable trouble with that.....

Sorry I should have been more specific. The dynamic rope I was talking about is a 10.2mm climbing rope. I can't imagine there would be any problems using this as I've used it for rappelling before, let alone just for a pull line. So just to be clear, we'll be bringing along these ropes:

1) 9mm 600ft static rope used as rappel line for 500' and as pull cord for 300'

2) 10.8mm static rope used as pull line for 500' and as rappel line for 300' as well as smaller drops

3) 10.2mm dynamic climbing rope used as pull line for the 500'

Should be fine right?

[ratagonia]

Sorry I should have been more specific. The dynamic rope I was talking about is a 10.2mm climbing rope. I can't imagine there would be any problems using this as I've used it for rappelling before, let alone just for a pull line. So just to be clear, we'll be bringing along these ropes:

1) 9mm 600ft static rope used as rappel line for 500' and as pull cord for 300'

2) 10.8mm static rope used as pull line for 500' and as rappel line for 300' as well as smaller drops

3) 10.2mm dynamic climbing rope used as pull line for the 500'

Should be fine right?

OK, but not optimal.

The dynamic rope will introduce quite a bit of stretch in the system, and stretch makes doing the pull more difficult.

Hawaiian rock is noted to be quite rough, giving many opportunities for the rope to cut over an edge. By "cut" I mean get nicked in a way to produce a "core shot" (a cutting of the sheath fibers so that a window is opened up where you can see the core) rather than fully cut through = death which is also a possibility hopefully more remote. When you rappel on a dynamic rope, it tends to bounce, which means where it crosses the edge the rope moves up and down at the crossing point, which CAN produce a core-shot or worse. Bouncing can also be produced by not rigging your rappel for a smooth descent (which is often done on big & scary rappels).

ASIDE: one problem with the small-diameter pull-cord is that you WILL be pulling it over a sharp edge, and the smaller it is the more likely the pull cord is to cut through across that edge. Also, the stretchier it is, the more likely it is to cut. So if you used 600 feet of 3mm nylon accessory cord or 550 paracord to try to pull your rappel, I would estimate the chance of cutting the cord on the rock would be around 90%. /ASIDE.

Not all static ropes are all that static. Static ropes with nylon cores will be somewhat bouncy. Static ropes with polyester or dyneema cores will be "very static", and IMHO tend to work quite a bit better.

Also, your nylon dynamic rope will absorb more water than a polyester static rope would... but you guys are all young and strong so maybe that is not much of a problem...

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/gearguide/rope-water-absorption-tests-polyester-vs-nylon/

Tom

[oahu_canyoneer]

OK, but not optimal.

The dynamic rope will introduce quite a bit of stretch in the system, and stretch makes doing the pull more difficult.

Hawaiian rock is noted to be quite rough, giving many opportunities for the rope to cut over an edge. By "cut" I mean get nicked in a way to produce a "core shot" (a cutting of the sheath fibers so that a window is opened up where you can see the core) rather than fully cut through = death which is also a possibility hopefully more remote. When you rappel on a dynamic rope, it tends to bounce, which means where it crosses the edge the rope moves up and down at the crossing point, which CAN produce a core-shot or worse. Bouncing can also be produced by not rigging your rappel for a smooth descent (which is often done on big & scary rappels).

ASIDE: one problem with the small-diameter pull-cord is that you WILL be pulling it over a sharp edge, and the smaller it is the more likely the pull cord is to cut through across that edge. Also, the stretchier it is, the more likely it is to cut. So if you used 600 feet of 3mm nylon accessory cord or 550 paracord to try to pull your rappel, I would estimate the chance of cutting the cord on the rock would be around 90%. /ASIDE.

Not all static ropes are all that static. Static ropes with nylon cores will be somewhat bouncy. Static ropes with polyester or dyneema cores will be "very static", and IMHO tend to work quite a bit better.

Also, your nylon dynamic rope will absorb more water than a polyester static rope would... but you guys are all young and strong so maybe that is not much of a problem...

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/gearguide/rope-water-absorption-tests-polyester-vs-nylon/

Tom

Thanks for the link. Yeah we're all still young so we should be able to handle the extra weight, as uncomfortable as it will be. Both drops force you to rappel directly through the waterfall and as such the sharp edges on the rocks have been muted somewhat, although abrasion will still be a concern. For all you that are sick of the red rocks you got over there, here's a pic of the falls (Sacred Falls) taken from a helicopter (the only other way to see them). The water flow isn't quite as heavy as it looks in the pic as long as you catch it on a day with good weather.

58341

[ratagonia]

Totally awesome. Call me for the second descent!!!

:moses:

[Slot Machine]

Totally awesome. Call me for the second descent!!!

x2

Wow, getting down THAT is a SERIOUS proposition. I didn't see anywhere on the thread that this is a first descent. :ne_nau: Has that route been done? Is is bolted? If not, do you plan on bolting it? I ask because both of the big rappel anchors should be close to, or over the edge to allow for a less difficult rope pull.

OC, man, a lot of things can go soo wrong on big raps like that. I'm concerned about the 500 footer in particular. At the top of the rappel you will be force feeding 500 feet of wet 9mm rope through your rappel device. Your arms will probably wear out in a hurry since you will have just completed a 300 footer. Then you will have to adjust friction, with a worn out arm, with a waterfall pummeling you, 100-200 feet off the deck.

You might say, Bob, you're just being a wuss. Well, compared to my canyoneering partner, I am. He is 22 years old, climbs 5.12 and benches 300. We rapped of Egypt 2 recently (about 270 feet) and he didn't worry about adjusting friction saying, "man, my arm won't wear out". Well, about 80 feet off the deck his arm did wear out. He nearly lost control. It's a good thing I was belaying him from the top with a second rope. It could have gone very badly.

So, the point of my story is this- just having "good enough" technique/equipment might get you hurt or stranded out there. Consider shooting for "ideal".

Not being mean spirited at all OC, but it sounds like you need a little more experience before you try a monster like Sacred Falls. I'm only basing this suggestion on the paracord and dynamic rope questions. Those aren't questions a seasoned canyoneer would ask. (Not that I'm a seasoned canyoneer, I just play one on the internet.)

Anyway, it looks like an awesome adventure. I wish I could go with you guys. Be safe out there.

Bob

-

Tom must have had a good weekend. He is taking it really easy on you. :haha:

[ratagonia]

Anyway, it looks like an awesome adventure. I wish I could go with you guys. Be safe out there.

Bob

-

Tom must have had a good weekend. He is taking it really easy on you. :haha:

:2thumbs:

I considered this a good opportunity for my minions to show what they have learned...

Good job, Bob!

:moses:

[oahu_canyoneer]

Not being mean spirited at all OC, but it sounds like you need a little more experience before you try a monster like Sacred Falls. I'm only basing this suggestion on the paracord and dynamic rope questions. Those aren't questions a seasoned canyoneer would ask. (Not that I'm a seasoned canyoneer, I just play one on the internet.)


Thanks for the concern Slot, no offense taken. I fully expected a reply like this was coming sooner or later. Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

We've been prepping, scouting, and training for this specific descent for about 2 months now. There has been a group that has done it, but there isn't much in terms of beta. We've done most of the route finding and scouting of the descent ourselves and are aware of the dangers. There are no bolts so it's all natural anchoring.

Everyone in the group knows how and has practiced adding/removing friction mid-rappel, as well as crisis management techniques (stuck rappel device, pulley systems, passing knots etc...).

Could we be more prepared? More experienced? Sure. But you could always be more experienced and learning new things. I'm confident in our ability to descend successfully and safely, and at the end of the day that's all you can ask for right?

[Mojave Silence]

I assume you have diligently scouted the 500' and 300' raps, any indication that you could turn the 500' into a multi-pitch? I personally wouldn't go into that canyon without a full bolt kit, (cordless rotary hammer drill w/ a bunch of extra batteries, not a manual hand drill), especially if its a first descent. A waterproof walkie-talkie for every member of the team is also a must-have. A drop that big can very quickly turn into a lot of trouble. Is everyone in your group experienced in ascending, self and group rescue, bomber anchor building etc. What's the plan if the first person gets 400' down the 500'er and is unresponsive? I've done some big raps out on Maui, in the 500-600' range, and it is definately not something to take lightly. A very experienced crew with a tight plan and the right gear will make a huge difference in the days success.

[Mojave Silence]

Oahu---I must have been typing my message when ya "snuck" yours in.:haha:
I'll leave it up none the less.

[Slot Machine]

Thanks for the concern Slot, no offense taken. I fully expected a reply like this was coming sooner or later. Everyone has a different risk tolerance.

... I'm confident in our ability to descend successfully and safely, and at the end of the day that's all you can ask for right?

Your approach seems solid, you are doing all of your research the right way. Confidence is no substitute for experience however; at least not in this case. Risk tolerance? Well, yeah we all have different levels of it. Risk assessment is what I'm talking about. How likely am I to be injured/die, not how well can a I cope emotionally with the dangers ahead. (again, not mean spirited)

Let's say I'm capable of lead-climbing a 5.10 route. I could scout a 5.12 route for weeks, get all the right equipment and ask all the right questions. If I tried to lead a 5.12 I would never succeed, and might get hurt trying. Sacred falls looks like a 5.12, that is, an X rated 4C. Out of concern, I'd strongly suggest working up to it.

The pull cord / dynamic rope questions are 5.7 level questions. As you move up you'll have even more questions, better questions. Like Mojave Silence's question. That is a 5.12 level question for sure.

Not that I know the answer to his question, I really don't have a clue. :ne_nau:

[Mountaineer]

I'd strongly suggest working up to it.



I assume you have done > ~200' free (or semi-free) hang rappel before? The longer ones are a different experience, more technique, tough to pull rope through...

I'm glad my first couple weren't in cold flowing water.

[deagol]

Wow, a 500' rap sounds terrifying to me. I have done the one Slot Machine spoke of in Egypt II and was under the impression that it was about 245' ? I can't imagine doing double that. Also, it seems impossible to ascend up that rap like that (if you had to) with a waterfall hammering down on you?

This sounds epic by any description...

[Slot Machine]

Wow, a 500' rap sounds terrifying to me. I have done the one Slot Machine spoke of in Egypt II and was under the impression that it was about 245' ? I can't imagine doing double that. Also, it seems impossible to ascend up that rap like that (if you had to) with a waterfall hammering down on you?

This sounds epic by any description...

Well, we used a 320 foot rope and tied it to our truck, maybe 25 feet back from the drop. This was the amount of rope we had at the bottom-

58360

This is maybe 25 ish feet? Dunno, didn't measure. I'm still confident that drop is at least 270 ft.

Also, Summitseeker posted this on candition.com "Some beta says the first rappel is 230 feet. Be warned this is a 278foot drop and a 300 foot rope or two shorter ropes with a knot pass are required to do the rappel."

Anyway, steering the conversation back toward Hawaii, the big Egypt drop is simple in comparison to a 500 foot waterfall with jagged rocks. Top belay was easy, the rock was smooth and dry, fireman belay was easy, communication was easy and we didn't have to pull the rope down.

Also, deployment of the rope was easy, we just chucked the first 50 feet off the cliff and let the rest uncoil from the top. There was no chance of the rope snagging on anything. One's rope deployment skills would have to be perfect for a waterfall that tall.

[oahu_canyoneer]

Also, deployment of the rope was easy, we just chucked the first 50 feet off the cliff and let the rest uncoil from the top. There was no chance of the rope snagging on anything. One's rope deployment skills would have to be perfect for a waterfall that tall.

I'm open to suggestions. My plan is to toss the first 100' or so off, and deploy the rest from the top. Both the 300' and 500' are near vertical so there isn't much in terms of ledges for them to sit on. The risk of getting snagged on jagged rocks is muted also because the fall line of the rappels goes directly through consistently-running waterfalls (algae-filled slippery rocks the whole way down.)

Once the first person is down we'll move the rap line aside and get the pull line down the same way.

As far as communication goes, we're bringing waterproof two-way radios with us.

[Slot Machine]

I'm open to suggestions. My plan is to toss the first 100' or so off, and deploy the rest from the top. Both the 300' and 500' are near vertical so there isn't much in terms of ledges for them to sit on. The risk of getting snagged on jagged rocks is muted also because the fall line of the rappels goes directly through consistently-running waterfalls (algae-filled slippery rocks the whole way down.)

Hmmm... sounds good on paper, but... it might not work in practice. A rope in a nearly vertical Hawaiian waterfall does not behave like a rope on dry vertical Utah sandstone. Because the rope is wet, it is more likely to stick to things. If there are any stone features protruding along the fall line, moss covered or otherwise, then there is a chance for a big tangle. When you throw the first 100 feet off then the rest will continue to feed smoothly from the top, simply because of the weight of the rope. It creates the illusion that the rope has arrived at the bottom. You might have a tangle 100 feet down, or a tangle 400 feet down. You won't know until the first man down is committed to the rappel. That tangle could prove deadly if not dealt with quickly.

Now, how to deploy a 600 ft rope in a waterfall is beyond the scope of my expertise. :ne_nau: Tom, do you sell a 600 ft rope bag? Any pointers?

[Aj84737]

Hmmm... Tom, do you sell a 600 ft rope bag? Any pointers?

Tom does sell a 600 foot rope bag. It's called the kolob pack. Haha

[ratagonia]

Hmmm... sounds good on paper, but... it might not work in practice. A rope in a nearly vertical Hawaiian waterfall does not behave like a rope on dry vertical Utah sandstone. Because the rope is wet, it is more likely to stick to things. If there are any stone features protruding along the fall line, moss covered or otherwise, then there is a chance for a big tangle. When you throw the first 100 feet off then the rest will continue to feed smoothly from the top, simply because of the weight of the rope. It creates the illusion that the rope has arrived at the bottom. You might have a tangle 100 feet down, or a tangle 400 feet down. You won't know until the first man down is committed to the rappel. That tangle could prove deadly if not dealt with quickly.

Now, how to deploy a 600 ft rope in a waterfall is beyond the scope of my expertise. :ne_nau: Tom, do you sell a 600 ft rope bag? Any pointers?

For a 600 foot rope, I use a Heaps Pack, an old one, with no frame in it. Yes, I like how a rope bag deploys, but I also think Oahu-Canyoneer is on the right track.

One problem if you use a rope bag is, if you chuck it off it will deploy the rope nicely. But the bag may be swept by the current and over the next falls, and filled with water - therefore applying 50 lbs force at the bottom, an au natural bottom belay - very dangerous, you go first!

So I like a careful throw and feeding out of the rope.

On long raps, I do the caver thing, and have a handled ascender on a leash to my harness available, so if I need to stop and do something, I can do so quickly and conveniently. I assume each member of the descent team will have something similar.

A big advantage in Hawaii is that the water is not all that cold. Makes a big difference.

Tom :moses:

[deagol]

Not taking this thread back to the Egypt II direction, but coincidentaly, I did run into some tangles on that rap. As 1st one down (no bottom belay) it was my job to remove the tangles. I locked-off on my rap device above the tangle and un-did the tangle, and then continued down the rope to the bottom. It seems like this could work on a larger rap, but I'm curious as to why Tom used an ascender to do the same thing as a lock-off (I use a Totem where the lock-off is super easy to do). I'm sure there is a good reason and am curious to learn more...

Also, if the Rap in Egypt was 270', than I can see that being true. We had a 300' rope and anchored off that arch near the lip. There wasn't a huge amount of extra rope not used. Was just curious as to the real length with no pre-conceved idea of what length was the correct one. But still, rapping 500 ' would scare the ^&*$ out of me, I think.

[ratagonia]

Not taking this thread back to the Egypt II direction, but coincidentaly, I did run into some tangles on that rap. As 1st one down (no bottom belay) it was my job to remove the tangles. I locked-off on my rap device above the tangle and un-did the tangle, and then continued down the rope to the bottom. It seems like this could work on a larger rap, but I'm curious as to why Tom used an ascender to do the same thing as a lock-off (I use a Totem where the lock-off is super easy to do). I'm sure there is a good reason and am curious to learn more...


I too use a rappel device that is easy to lock off on, a Pirana.

But, on really long rappels, where the weight of the rope is significant, having the ability to stop and secure without having to lift the rope can be a good idea. The dangling handled ascender is something cavers do (I am told). In a caving situation (and on some canyoneering rappels) it may not be possible, or it may be dangerous, or it may be inconvenient to have to lift rope from below in order to secure-off.

It is of course better to set up the rope without tangles if possible.Throwing a bunch of rope out may or may not achieve this objective. Using a ropebag of some kind usually makes achieving this objective fairly easy, though not fool-proof. Carefully laying out the rope above then lowering is very reliable, if the geometry allows it to work.

Tom :moses:

[deagol]

I too use a rappel device that is easy to lock off on, a Pirana.

But, on really long rappels, where the weight of the rope is significant, having the ability to stop and secure without having to lift the rope can be a good idea. The dangling handled ascender is something cavers do (I am told). In a caving situation (and on some canyoneering rappels) it may not be possible, or it may be dangerous, or it may be inconvenient to have to lift rope from below in order to secure-off.

It is of course better to set up the rope without tangles if possible.Throwing a bunch of rope out may or may not achieve this objective. Using a ropebag of some kind usually makes achieving this objective fairly easy, though not fool-proof. Carefully laying out the rope above then lowering is very reliable, if the geometry allows it to work.

Tom :moses:

Thanks Tom, makes sense. Would be great to see a pic of exactly how the ascender is placed. On the brake strand, perhaps?

[ratagonia]

Thanks Tom, makes sense. Would be great to see a pic of exactly how the ascender is placed. On the brake strand, perhaps?

Nah, it is on a 24" tether, and you just clip it to the rope above the rappel device. With a handled ascender, this can easily be done with one hand.

Being clipped above the rappel device, one could then make adjustments to the rappel device, for instance.

Tom

[deagol]

Nah, it is on a 24" tether, and you just clip it to the rope above the rappel device. With a handled ascender, this can easily be done with one hand.

Being clipped above the rappel device, one could then make adjustments to the rappel device, for instance.

Tom

Is it an adjustable tether? Is that how you would release it when it's weighted? All ascenders I have used require you to be able to push them up the rope a tad in order to release them.

[ratagonia]

Is it an adjustable tether? Is that how you would release it when it's weighted? All ascenders I have used require you to be able to push them up the rope a tad in order to release them.

I think you are over-thinking it. Sure an adjustable tether might be a good idea. Nice thing about most handled ascenders is that it takes very little upward motion to get it to release.

Tom

[Taylor]

I think you would re-weight the rap device then remove the ascender.

[ratagonia]

I think you would re-weight the rap device then remove the ascender.

Yeah but, in order to do that, you need to move upward an inch or two. A foot loop on the ascender would do that.

Tom

[oahu_canyoneer]

I just wanted to say thanks for all the input guys. We successfully descended the falls the Sat/Sun (although we had out fair share of hiccups along the way). We started out at 4am and still couldn't finish the same day so had to camp out in the canyon and finish in the morning. I'll post a TR once I finish editing the video from our trip. Until then here's a pic from the bottom of the 500'.58902

[ratagonia]

Can't wait... Good ON ya! :2thumbs:

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Sweeet!! Looking forward to the TR!

[Mountaineer]

We successfully descended the falls

Sweet! I'll bet it was a RUSH. Can't wait to hear more about it.

[Eric Holden]

Very cool, can't wait to see the trip report.