Kolob creek, Aug 29 - Sept 3

[Bootboy]

My GF and I are planning a trip through Kolob creek between the 29th and the third. We are looking for an extra body, if anyone is interested, PM me.

We are also contemplating right hand fork as an over nighter.

[ratagonia]

My GF and I are planning a trip through Kolob creek between the 29th and the third. We are looking for an extra body, if anyone is interested, PM me.

We are also contemplating right hand fork as an over nighter.

Hmmmm. Not sure what your plans are, Bootboy.

A one-day Kolob Creek, out the MIA? And then maybe a two-day Right Fork of North Creek?

Tom

[Bootboy]

Im still trying to nail down specific dates.
Kolob would likely be out the Mia. Right fork would be a day or two later. Not sure the exact order or dates, just puttin feelers out.

[Brian in SLC]

I'd be tempted to hit Zion(s) for Labor Day weekend, and, haven't done Kolob since with Tom way back when...

Kolob and up the MIA, then Pine Creek the next day...then...?

Maybe. If so, I'd be lookin' for carpool from SLC to Zion. Leave Friday around 3ish from Sandy...come back at a reasonable hour on Monday. Hmmm.

[Bootboy]

My GF and I are leaving Wednesday night and will be gone 6 or 7 nights. We will be stopping at joes valley for Thursday to climb and fish. Then off to Zion for Thursday night.
I've got permits for pine creek and keyhole on Saturday. We may do echo on Friday and save kolob for Tuesday. I have a friend coming down on Monday night to spend Tuesday with us

[Bootboy]

Managed to snag a das boot AND a subway permit for next tuesday. yesss

Kolob will likely be Sunday or Monday. Anybody?

[burley]

I'd be interested in Kolob if you went through on Monday. How many spots do you have available?

[Bootboy]

Well, as I understand it, if using the MIA exit, one does not need a permit. Correct? So spots are flexible. It will be either Friday or Sunday, pending some last minute drawing results.

[ratagonia]

Well, as I understand it, if using the MIA exit, one does not need a permit. Correct? So spots are flexible. It will be either Friday or Sunday, pending some last minute drawing results.

That is not the way the Park sees it.

Tom

[nelsonccc]

Well, as I understand it, if using the MIA exit, one does not need a permit. Correct? So spots are flexible. It will be either Friday or Sunday, pending some last minute drawing results.

Only if you stay on the north side of the creek. If you cross to the south side you'll need a permit.

The only reason I would ever get a permit for kolob is if I was new and needed to know that they knew where I was if something went wrong. I pulled. Permit the first time I did but that was before the whole call the water district bs. Not pulled one since.

[Iceaxe]

I had this Kolob permit conversation with ranger Ray before..... he said he would give me a ticket if he caught me and I could argue the north-south side of the creek deal before a judge......

.....he has yet to catch me....

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[Bootboy]

Got a permit anyway. Did it yesterday. Release was 0 cfs, so in the canyon there a was a residual trickle of water. My girlfriend and I caught a group of 4 and passed them on rap 4 after their first man down had slipped on the wall and dislocated his shoulder and bloodied his lip. (no helmet). I assume they made it out ok. I asked at the permit office this morning if anybody was reported missing up there, they said no. We did it car to car in 10.5 hours with a long lunch and some route finding issues in the MIA road maze. P.S. the MIA exit sucks.

[Stick]

How deep was water in Kolob Creek from the end of the technical section to the start of the MIA?

[Bootboy]

It all depends on what you consider the end of the technical section...

[Bootboy]

After the main rappel sequence its mostly ankle deep, narrows-type stuff. But there are a few places where you have to get wet. 2 full swims if I remember correctly. The last major swim is about a 10 ft drop into a pool. There is an anchor but the water was crystal clear and about 8 feet deep so we just jumped it. Definitely leave a suit on till the MIA. The ideal setup (for decent weather) would be a 4/3 full suit with a 1.5 or 2mm top to supplement as needed. I wore my 5/4 and was never cold, but the water was just a trickle. At ~3cfs you'd want another layer. I wore medium weight wool socks and my 5.10 savants and my feet were fine. No gloves except to rap. My GF and I made it from the car to the bottom of the MIA I just over 6 hours, with a long lunch, catching trout with our bare hands, and a shoulder reduction (unsuccessful).

I am bummed that I forgot my gopro charger, having exhausted the battery over the two previous days.

Kolob is incredible but it makes you pay with the MIA. But I guess thats why few go there.

The guide books dramatize it a little (sorry Tom). While it is a serious endeavor, most savvy canyon goers will experience no trouble. Just set your ropes wisely and you're fine.

[ratagonia]

Kolob is incredible but it makes you pay with the MIA. But I guess thats why few go there.

The guide books dramatize it a little (sorry Tom). While it is a serious endeavor, most savvy canyon goers will experience no trouble. Just set your ropes wisely and you're fine.

You mean the MIA is over-dramatized? or Kolob?

It's all fun and games until you get a rope stuck!

As I remember, there are two raps/jumps in the section Kolob to Boundary. After Boundary there are two places, usually, that are over-the-waist deep.

Tom

[Bootboy]

Kolob.
I guess I have to realize the general audience you (and others) are offering the information to though. I suppose it's actually a good thing and hopefully it keeps people out who shouldn't be in there. I understand the rope bit, but I come from a long alpine climbing background where you are equally screwed if you stick a rope on rappel. I've learned that this is a reality and take every measure to insure it doesn't happen, in the mountains as well as in the canyons. I took more than enough rope down Kolob. Don't worry.

That said, Kolob is one of the more spectacular places I have ever been and I will go back in the future. Thanks for your info Tom.

Tom, any chance you are considering a second edition of your book? If so I'd like to offer a few points of clarification that I have made notes on in my copy. your book still remains my primary source for Zion though.

Boots

[ratagonia]

Tom, any chance you are considering a second edition of your book? If so I'd like to offer a few points of clarification that I have made notes on in my copy. your book still remains my primary source for Zion though.

Boots

I am just starting to dig in to the 2nd Edition, and welcome any and all input.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Kolob.
I guess I have to realize the general audience you (and others) are offering the information to though. I suppose it's actually a good thing and hopefully it keeps people out who shouldn't be in there. I understand the rope bit, but I come from a long alpine climbing background where you are equally screwed if you stick a rope on rappel. I've learned that this is a reality and take every measure to insure it doesn't happen, in the mountains as well as in the canyons. I took more than enough rope down Kolob. Don't worry.

Boots

Ummmm, I think you MAY be missing one of the key points, and why in general I think a "guidebook author" or other "beta-provider" can do a much better job after having been through a canyon four or five times.

Conditions vary. In Kolob's case, conditions vary a lot. When they set the release from the dam, it is just some guy turning the wheel on the valve until it looks right. The standard release is 3-5 cfs. I have seen this result, IN THE CANYON, in what I judged to be zero to EIGHT CFS. At 8 cfs it is a very different canyon, and considerably less forgiving.

One sunny July afternoon with the canyon running at 8 cfs, when we pulled the rope at the first long rappel, and the rope fell down into the upper pool, my thoughts turned to what happened if the rope got stuck. I had just stuck a rope in a similar circumstance in the Sierra a few weeks before, and we cut the rope (after screwing with if for 2 hours) and hiked out. Hiking out of Kolob at that point was not a possibility.

Thankfully, Kolob is set up well. If you jam a rope at that first long rappel, you are likely to get at least one rope back - which should be enough to get you out of the canyon, though perhaps not to recover the rope on the last big rappel. The short drops below that are almost always jumpable (who said that???) or can be made with 20 feet of webbing or whatever! But ... well, let's just say, doing Kolob in flow with a 50m rappelling rope and a 50m pull cord would be cutting it a little close to the bone, for my taste.

Uh, actually - I guess I could have read back to what you were referring. Is that the riff upon which we were soloing? Or perhaps the band is playing a different tune...

Tom

[Bootboy]

Generally, the approaches on century old logging roads don't change from season to season.

I should have said that your book is my primary source for only a few key points: approach, exit, and longest rap. Approaches are the area in which I would offer some points of clarification. Once in the canyon I've found that I possess the capacity for problem solving and rational thought sufficient to get me through safely.

I was trying to gracious Tom but you talk to me like Im stupid, and it gets old.

[ratagonia]

Generally, the approaches on century old logging roads don't change from season to season.

I should have said that your book is my primary source for only a few key points: approach, exit, and longest rap. Approaches are the area in which I would offer some points of clarification. Once in the canyon I've found that I possess the capacity for problem solving and rational thought sufficient to get me through safely.

I was trying to be gracious, Tom, but you talk to me like I'm stupid, and it gets old.

I'm sorry if you took it as talking down to you, Bootboy. That was not my intention.

You gave me a cryptic lead-in after I asked for clarification - I made my best guess as to what you were talking about. I guessed wrong. Sorry.



I guess I have to realize the general audience you (and others) are offering the information to though. I suppose it's actually a good thing and hopefully it keeps people out who shouldn't be in there. I understand the rope bit, but I come from a long alpine climbing background where you are equally screwed if you stick a rope on rappel. I've learned that this is a reality and take every measure to insure it doesn't happen, in the mountains as well as in the canyons.

I've done some alpine climbing too. Sometimes, not always, in an alpine environment, there may be the possibility of climbing up the rappel pitch. There may be the possibility of jugging the rope, while setting protection like a lead. There is rarely this possibility in a canyon environment.

Tom

[qedcook]

Bootboy said: "I was trying to gracious Tom but you talk to me like Im stupid, and it gets old."

Amen, bootboy. Same thing happened to me when I descended Kolob on Memorial Day. Tom talked down to me like I was an idoit, and put words in my mouth I never said, trying to make me out to be a know-nothing noob.

Tom's lecturing like he knows it all again. Get over yourself, Tom. You got issues, man.

[Bootboy]

I've done some alpine climbing too. Sometimes, not always, in an alpine environment, there may be the possibility of climbing up the rappel pitch. There may be the possibility of jugging the rope, while setting protection like a lead. There is rarely this possibility in a canyon environment.

Tom[/I][/COLOR]

This, I know. I've done many a route in remote areas that do not rap the ascent route where you do not have this option. The one time in 12 years that I stuck a rope I had the luxury of a short, easy pitch to recover it. Recognizing the risks and mitigating the hazards are part of both activities. This type of thinking is something I am very familiar with. I spend a lot of time in the backcountry in all 4 seasons and have learned a thing or two about acceptable levels of risk and making good decisions, be it avalanche hazards, lightning storms, flash floods, animal encounters, injuries, and so on. While fairly new to canyoneering, I am not new to critical thinking, good judgement, rope skill, and preparation. You must regularly deal with people who lack all of these to respond the way you often do.

[ratagonia]

This, I know. I've done many a route in remote areas that do not rap the ascent route where you do not have this option. The one time in 12 years that I stuck a rope I had the luxury of a short, easy pitch to recover it. Recognizing the risks and mitigating the hazards are part of both activities. This type of thinking is something I am very familiar with. I spend a lot of time in the backcountry in all 4 seasons and have learned a thing or two about acceptable levels of risk and making good decisions, be it avalanche hazards, lightning storms, flash floods, animal encounters, injuries, and so on. While fairly new to canyoneering, I am not new to critical thinking, good judgement, rope skill, and preparation.

You must regularly deal with people who lack all of these to respond the way you often do.

Yes. And, of course, when responding to YOU on a public forum, WE are having a conversation in public. Thus I go into extensive detail at a beginner level on many occasions, where it may not be appropriate to the original question.

I'm be very interested in where you find the descriptions wanting - sounds like the approach, which is concise, and therefore not particularly detailed.

Also, you said the Kolob description is overly-dramatic? Did you mean MY description? I just re-read it (in the book) and did not think it was over-the-top.

Tom

[Bootboy]

Anyway...
Just did Kolob again this week. A friend of mine got jealous after my trip 3 weeks ago and twisted my arm to go back, haha! My GF and I reluctantly (not) agreed to go do it again. Having worked out a more straight forward route and minus route finding difficulties, we saved about 40 minutes on the approach over our first trip. No helmetless clowns in the canyon either; dislocating their shoulders on the way... The water was just a trickle but was somewhere around 40

[ratagonia]

[QUOTE=Bootboy;512298]Anyway...
Just did Kolob again this week. A friend of mine got jealous after my trip 3 weeks ago and twisted my arm to go back, haha! My GF and I reluctantly (not) agreed to go do it again. Having worked out a more straight forward route and minus route finding difficulties, we saved about 40 minutes on the approach over our first trip. No helmetless clowns in the canyon either; dislocating their shoulders on the way... The water was just a trickle but was somewhere around 40

[Mountaineer]

Thanks for the update. I'm thinking of trying this very soon if I can get a day away. Fantastic you have the time for a "back to back" trip, and your friend is lucky to know you.

[Bootboy]

Thanks for the update. I'm thinking of trying this very soon if I can get a day away. Fantastic you have the time for a "back to back" trip, and your friend is lucky to know you.

I'm lucky to have a girlfriend who is into this stuff.

One recommendation: neoprene gloves and socks, maybe a hood. My 5/4 suit was sufficient, just keep moving

[Mountaineer]

I'm lucky to have a girlfriend who is into this stuff.

One recommendation: neoprene gloves and socks, maybe a hood. My 5/4 suit was sufficient, just keep moving

Just got back from doing Kolob. The neoprene hood made all the difference. Good advice. We started to get cold (mostly hands), and the hood changed the experience from a "hustle" to a "relax and enjoy". Fun canyon, but the return is long...

[dustinsc]

So the water was cold, but how was the water level? Any residual flow? Just called the water district and they said they have no plans to release water the week of my planned trip.

[Bootboy]

When we did it last week, there was only a trickle. Just residual flow. But still very fresh.

[Mountaineer]

When we did it last week, there was only a trickle. Just residual flow. But still very fresh.

Yesterday was about the same, I would say a steady small flow (garden hose).

[dustinsc]

Thanks! :2thumbs:

Yesterday was about the same, I would say a steady small flow (garden hose).