Stone Knot as a contingency

[Mountaineer]

Hi all,
I've been reading about the stone knot mentioned in some of the threads recently, and decided to test and try it out in our garage. It is very efficient for multiple people doing the same rap, that is evident. And, when it is not under any load undoing the knot is fairly simple.

However, if you need to lower someone with this knot, in an emergency, what is the best practices or method to do so? I first found if the screw lock on the carabiner is against one of the strands of rope, I struggled to even unscrew it.

Do you have to setup a prusik on the load bearing strand to take the pressure off? Or is there an easier way to set this up? I was trained to use a figure eight (with the twist) as a block, and when it is under load converting it to a lower/belay is really easy.

Thanks for any insight.

[ratagonia]

Correct -

A Stone Knot is not a contingency rig. Converting it into a lowering system is called a "Conversion", and is a bit complicated, takes some practice to execute efficiently.

Yes, grab the rope below the knot, take the tension off the knot, then remove the knot and install a lowering system. Put the weight onto the lowering system then remove your temporary grab; lower the Stuckman to the ground.

Tom

[Mountaineer]

Very good, thanks Tom.

[Slot Machine]

Yes, grab the rope below the knot, take the tension off the knot, then remove the knot and install a lowering system. Put the weight onto the lowering system then remove your temporary grab; lower the Stuckman to the ground.

Tom

Huh? I can only picture about three-quarters of what you are saying.

If a picture paints a thousand words, instead of asking you to type a thousand more words, would you mind taking a picture of what you are describing?

[Mountaineer]

Once you "undo" the stone knot you are simply left with a rope through your anchor. If it was rigged with enough rope for a double strand rap, you have enough rope to lower. If not, you need to tie in more rope...The key is getting the weight off the anchor so you can actually undo the stone.

[ratagonia]

Huh? I can only picture about three-quarters of what you are saying.

If a picture paints a thousand words, instead of asking you to type a thousand more words, would you mind taking a picture of what you are describing?

Maybe, at some point. But this is a better thing to do as a training, rather than as a written word/pictures kind of thing.

Why? Well, you have to try it and make mistakes (non-fatal) to learn the nuances.

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Once you "undo" the stone knot you are simply left with a rope through your anchor. If it was rigged with enough rope for a double strand rap, you have enough rope to lower. If not, you need to tie in more rope...The key is getting the weight off the anchor so you can actually undo the stone.

Right, that makes sense.

I should have been more clear with my statement above. The 25% I'm not seeing is how to use a rope grab to take the weight off the stone.

[Slot Machine]

Maybe, at some point. But this is a better thing to do as a training, rather than as a written word/pictures kind of thing.

Why? Well, you have to try it and make mistakes (non-fatal) to learn the nuances.

Tom

Tom, I haven't been living room canyoneering in days. I'm getting withdrawals. :slobber::cold::crazy:

I didn't die doing a 300 footer in my living room (almost died). I'm pretty sure a rope grab won't kill me.

:lol8:

However, I see your point.

[moab mark]

Right, that makes sense.

I should have been more clear with my statement above. The 25% I'm not seeing is how to use a rope grab to take the weight off the stone.

I could be wrong but I thought a while ago there was a discussion about removing a biner block so you could lower. I think it had pictures? Same concept, attached rope grab set up a pig rig or something similar and lift the loaded rope. Remove Stone set up to lower. Usually if you are using a Stone both ends do reach the ground so you should have enough to lower them all the way down without having to add rope. Please practice in your living room, make sure your kids are not below your dummy weight.:lol8: We want pictures of you doing this off your railing.

Mark

[moab mark]

Or just set up a munter hitch on each strand with a bit of slack between them.

[Slot Machine]

...lift the loaded rope. Remove Stone set up to lower. ... We want pictures of you doing this off your railing.

Mark

Mark are you questioning my dedication to the sport of living room canyoneering? :nono: Off of my railing?? :angryfire:

Well, if you insist... :haha::haha::haha::haha:

Here is our anchor and stone knot:

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Meet Peggy the Penguin. Peggy will be the victim in this scenario.

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Peggy bravely starts her descent when *oh no* her front wing gets jammed in her rappel device.

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It quickly becomes clear to her living room canyoneering team that she needs to be rescued.

Step 1: Peggy's team rigs a 2:1 hauling system (in red). The three anchor points on the railing are spread out in order to show all the working parts. This system is set up with two Petzl Basic ascenders. The lower ascender is inverted.

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Step 2: Pull on your hauling rope to create some slack between the lower and upper ascenders. Even though Peggy is morbidly obese, I am able to lift her with just my fingertips. :stud: You will have to pull about half of the victim's weight in order to unweight the stone knot.

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Step 3: Pull the extra slack up and through the upper ascender. Release the tension in the hauling system. The upper ascender is now holding the weight of the victim.

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Step 4: Undo your stone knot and replace with a munter hitch. Obviously, someone should be tending the lowering side of the rappel rope, or it should be tied off.

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Step 5: Tension the hauling system. Remove the top ascender.

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Step 6: Release the tension in the hauling system. Remove the lower ascender. Lower Peggy to the ground.

Is that how it's done? :lol8::cool2:

Bob

[ratagonia]

Very good Bob.

That's the basic idea. Some notes:

1. Usually a 2:1 with a redirect is all it takes. If you clip in and use your bodyweight as a counter balance, then you will have both hands free.
2. In the real world, there are two issues that need to be dealt with:
2a. Once you have lifted the victim, can you still reach the Stone Knot and the anchor?
2b. Once you have set up your lowering system, when you slack off the counter-balance, do you get the weight onto the lowering system and off your rope grab so you can remove the ropegrab?

All of 2 is about getting the lengths right.

A double-length sling is often quite helpful, especially one of those spectra ones. maybe a triple would work too.

With people available to help, it becomes considerably easier.

Practicing outside with a full-size human will reveal the weaknesses in your technique.

My best timed time is 2:15, so far, with some fumbling. I could get it down to 2:00 I'm pretty sure.

Practice is usually done with the anchors in a convenient place. If anchors are not in a convenient place, it could take MUCH longer.

Using an extension on your rappel device will help prevent the dreaded nipped-flipper, which I have nightmares about...

Tom

[ratagonia]

hmmmm, a little more analysis...

Faster/easier, instead of setting up a "progress capture" rope grab (your upper ascender), to keep tension on via bodyweight.

After setting up your lower, getting the weight onto the lower and off your progress capture is not as easy as you might think. If using a progress capture, you might want to set it up as a releasable progress capture (ie, Mariner's Knot, or a Munter Mule).

Tom

[Mountaineer]

Wow, thanks Bob for putting this together. Very infomative. Now to find some heavy penguins to practice with...

[oldno7]

did peggy survive?

thats how I rate a contingency, effectively saving the penguin.

[Taylor]

Seriously, I'm going to have to do some remodeling. I have these stupid pony walls and no railing in my house...

[Slot Machine]

That's the basic idea. Some notes:

1. Usually a 2:1 with a redirect is all it takes. If you use your bodyweight as a counter balance, then you will have both hands free.
2. In the real world, there are two issues that need to be dealt with:
2a. Once you have lifted the victim, can you still reach the Stone Knot and the anchor?
2b. Once you have set up your lowering system, when you slack off the counter-balance, do you get the weight onto the lowering system and off your rope grab so you can remove the ropegrab?

All of 2 is about getting the lengths right.


Smart! Skipping the ratchet probably becomes obvious when the clock is ticking. Thanks for all of the pointers Tom! :2thumbs: :gents:


Wow, thanks Bob for putting this together. Very infomative. Now to find some heavy penguins to practice with...

Thanks! However, those playing along at home should file it under "moderately informative" for now. I'm simply trying to turn Tom's words into pictures. Please don't mistake me for someone that knows what they are doing. :mrgreen:


did peggy survive?

She nearly died of boredom. Heck, she nearly had time to evolve back into a species that can fly before she reached the ground. :haha: I have a lot of work to do if I'm going to match Tom's time.

[moab mark]

:2thumbs: If seconds matter and you can set up another anchor or clip into your anchor in another location. Just tossing this out but since we have a willing penguin. Clip into the new anchor take your rescue rope and set it up with a munter hitch with a tail hanging down so you can attach it to the loaded rope with your rope grab. Now pull up and take as much slack as you can out of your rescue rope. At this point take out your trusty penquin gutting knife and cut the webbing where the rapide with your stone knot is attached. Now lower on rescue rope. Probably give you the heeby jeebies when you cut the webbing but if seconds count they will start going down. You can also lower your rescue rope down to the penquin with a biner in the end and have them clip into it. Then take the slack out of it and cut them loose. I think the Emporer calls this cut and go.

In all my years of Canyoneering have never had to lower anyone. Knock on wood. Had one stuck hair problem but she freed it on her own. I am a biner block or Stone Knot kind of guy.

Mark

[ratagonia]

:2thumbs: If seconds matter and you can set up another anchor or clip into your anchor in another location. Just tossing this out but since we have a willing penguin. Clip into the new anchor take your rescue rope and set it up with a munter hitch with a tail hanging down so you can attach it to the loaded rope with your rope grab. Now pull up and take as much slack as you can out of your rescue rope. At this point take out your trusty penquin gutting knife and cut the webbing where the rapide with your stone knot is attached. Now lower on rescue rope. Probably give you the heeby jeebies when you cut the webbing but if seconds count they will start going down. You can also lower your rescue rope down to the penquin with a biner in the end and have them clip into it. Then take the slack out of it and cut them loose. I think the Emporer calls this cut and go.

In all my years of Canyoneering have never had to lower anyone. Knock on wood. Had one stuck hair problem but she freed it on her own. I am a biner block or Stone Knot kind of guy.

Mark

Very unpredictable what happens when the tiblock or other ropegrab crosses the edge of the rock. Probably not good

We save the cut and lower for rescuing double-rope-rappelling troglodytes. Tie the rescue rope to the double-strand rappel ropes using ... ok, it is a complicated, very specific knot... maybe next week...

Knives around loaded ropes - very dangerous.

Certainly if you can send a rescue rope down and the victim can help, that might be the best way to go.

Saving time? Time is saved by being proficient at your rescue skills. Including choosing easier/faster methods, when appropriate.

Tom

[moab mark]

Very unpredictable what happens when the tiblock or other ropegrab crosses the edge of the rock. Probably not good

Tom
When I saw this done the rope was biner blocked. Before they started lowering they tied a fisherman knot with the original rappel strand right above the tibloc in case it slipped?


Mark

[ratagonia]

When I saw this done the rope was biner blocked. Before they started lowering they tied a fisherman knot with the original rappel strand right above the tibloc in case it slipped?


Mark

It is still hard on the rope where it goes over the edge. Might not slip and fail, might mess up the rope.

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Steph and I were playing around with this conversion today, we got it done in 1:56.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo21QYS1jjU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Special thanks to my wife for being the victim in this video. :mrgreen:

[ratagonia]

ooops. Emi did not like you pirating their music. Sorry dude.

Please post again.

Just a quick comment: when you add the rope going over a rock edge, it increases the force required for the lift substantially.

Just saying - your time does not count unless it is over a rock edge...

Just like the badminton players - was that in the rules??? :roll:

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Fixed.


Just saying - your time does not count unless it is over a rock edge..

Meh. :roll::roll::roll:

Bob

[ratagonia]

Now it says "removed by the user"... ???

T

[Slot Machine]

Bah! Works fine... until I walk away. :wallbash:

There, nowwww it should work.

[Brian in SLC]

Should probably add some penalty points for not backing up the rappel line prior to un-doing the stone knot...

Fun stuff...thanks!

[ratagonia]

Bah! Works fine... until I walk away. :wallbash:

There, nowwww it should work.

Looks good - very nice. (Video working now).

Good clean process. And, I think you can see that another 0:15 could probably be gotten out of it. I like the ropegrab on the harness.

No penalty points in my book for "not backing up...". To me, a ropegrab under continuous tension does not need to be backed up.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

No penalty points in my book for "not backing up...". To me, a ropegrab under continuous tension does not need to be backed up.

You have a person's live weight and life on a "rope grab" with no back up? Toss a quick clove hitch on a biner, clip to anchor, takes two seconds, and, if for some reason, like when you twist sideways whilst leaning back and the "rope grab" slips or worse, then your live person won't get creamed.

Me? I'm recommending a backup as a standard protocol before weight transfer to a "rope grab" and undoing the Stone knot.

Wearing a helmet is a personal choice, however...ha ha.

[Slot Machine]

Should probably add some penalty points for not backing up the rappel line prior to un-doing the stone knot...

Fun stuff...thanks!

Brian, that is good suggestion. Dropping the rope "over the edge" would have been really bad. I'm assuming you don't think the ropegrab was going to fail.


Looks good - very nice. (Video working now).

Good clean process. And, I think you can see that another 0:15 could probably be gotten out of it. I like the ropegrab on the harness.

Tom

Thanks! If Steph was infinitely patient and our son would just nap all day, we could have shaved off an exra 0:15. It could have been our Olympic qualifying time. :haha:

Bob

[Slot Machine]

You have a person's live weight and life on a "rope grab" with no back up? Toss a quick clove hitch on a biner, clip to anchor, takes two seconds, and, if for some reason, like when you twist sideways whilst leaning back and the "rope grab" slips or worse, then your live person won't get creamed.

Me? I'm recommending a backup as a standard protocol before weight transfer to a "rope grab" and undoing the Stone knot.

Wearing a helmet is a personal choice, however...ha ha.

I was using a Basic as a ropegrab. It would have taken an act of God to make it slip IMO. Maybe if using a prussic as a ropegrab... yeah I could see that slipping.

Either way, due to slippage concerns, or just to keep the rope from falling over the edge should you drop it, it should be backed up. :nod:

[Brian in SLC]

I was using a Basic as a ropegrab. It would have taken an act of God to make it slip IMO.

Yeah...an act of dog...


Improper loading can prevent the ascender from grabbing the ropeThe ASCENSION and BASIC ascenders are designed to be loaded in a direction parallel to the rope; if loaded at an angle to the rope, the cam may not correctly engage the rope and slippage can occur (See the technical notice (http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/rope-clamps-progression/ascension), diagram 2).Having one person, the person who is ascending, or, hauling, minding an ascender is one thing...but...having a live weight on the other end...for me, would require a back up. Heck, if I was on a wall and hauling, and, had to unweight the rope from a haul bag, I'd secure the thing before I transferred the weight onto an ascender. But, a person? Oh yeah.

[Slot Machine]

Forget what I said about the rope falling over the edge. It is tied in during the entire process.

Anyway, I'm with Brian on this one, live person, backup, good idea. :2thumbs:

For the sake of learning a bit more, I'll play the devil's advocate for a moment:

Brian, I can't imagine the Basic slipping if weighted, even if twisted, as long as the direction of the force is in-line. On my rigging, all of the force is in-line. (is it not?)

Have you had an experience where an ascender or rope grab has slipped?

[Brian in SLC]

Have you had an experience where an ascender or rope grab has slipped?

Yeah, a number of times. I schredded the sheath on a rope doing a practise raise with a tibloc. I think I've posed photo's of it before. Real similar to how you'd unload a stone knot.

I've done a fair amount of jugging on fixed lines for aid climbing, etc. I've had side loads or whatever cause handled ascenders to slip.

Kinda the way I see it, if you need to convert to a lower in the field, for real, the anchor location, the environment, the situation, etc, might not be pretty. A back up prior to "going live" is fast and easy. Should something go wrong for whatever reason, not much harm done. The consequences of losing a live load could, and most likely would, be very severe.

I can't imagine transferring someone's weight, and mine, at the same time, all hanging in the balance off a single "rope grab", with no back up. Especially when a quick and simple back up is easily available.

[hank moon]

Kinda the way I see it, if you need to convert to a lower in the field, for real, the anchor location, the environment, the situation, etc, might not be pretty. A back up prior to "going live" is fast and easy. Should something go wrong for whatever reason, not much harm done. The consequences of losing a live load could, and most likely would, be very severe.

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A lot of what we do is influenced by habit. If I train without using a backup, I'll probably be less likely to install one when it's a good idea to do so. I might become habituated to my favorite technique "always working" and become blind to its potential failure modes. I imagine that even Tom might install a backup under certain circumstances. That said, when a proper ascender is properly loaded (on a proper rope), it should not slip...any more than a carabiner will spontaneously break.

[Brian in SLC]

Totally agree with that, Hank.

I've got in the habit, even on 40 foot long sport routes, of putting a bite into the blunt end of the rope. Its just a habit, but, like you said, those types of habits can be the difference when things don't go as planned.