Ascention Kit

[zul]

I'm sure it's been covered but really looking to make this purchase soon so that I can get to practicing/learning these techniques ... best pieces to ascend rope.

My research has brought me to:

Petzl Micro Traxion Pulley = $95
Add a Tibloc = $30.

Ropeman is showing 8.5-11mm = $35 some beta says no good on small ropes?
Ropeman MK3 = $55 but no pulley.

What is the best 2 piece versatile system? I am price sensitive (cheap) but willing to spend cash for the best setup if it is suggested for rope ascending and pot escape.

My ropes are 8.3-9.1 while some of my partners use thicker rope (climbers) and others using thin line (running 200ft ropes @ 8.0mm .. single line raps .. yikes!)

THX! - zul

[2065toyota]

Last night after work we went and hung some ropes to play around with ascending and getting over the lip. 1 had handled ascenders. 2 had tiblocs. 3 used prusiks. They all worked and they all got to the top. I'm sure each has their own good and bad points. From my limited experience, I would choose the tiblocs becasue they are lightweight and seemed to work well and if you had a nastly lip, you can take it off the rope and reattach it above the lip. Prusiks are the cheapest, go buy 10' of 6mm cord and tie some loops. The handhelds worked well but are bulky and expensive. We stuck a rope a month or so ago and had to prusik up to get it and it worked well. After reading a post by Shane a while ago, he was using the tiblocs to escape pot holes by sliding it down rope with the sling attached from the above canyon lip without having to enter the water until the escape line was already set. That also helped sell me on the Tiblocs

[trackrunner]

fyi ropeman 2 will work on 8mm but you need to use a binner with a thicker circumference like a petzle attache or bd rocklock, etc.

[MrAdam]

I have been using a Petzl Basic and a Ropeman II and have been very happy with both devices. I use the Basic as a footloop and the Ropeman as the waist attachment attached directly to my belay loop with an attache biner. I had to ascend to fix a stuck 8mm rope in Imlay a few weeks back and was able to get up 40' fairly quickly with this setup. Tiblocs are kind of a pain and personally I think the ropeman is worth the extra $5 and few grams of weight.

FWIW, I got to play with the Petzl Micro Traxion in an ACA class a while back and it is a really cool device. If money wasnt an issue and I didnt already have the ropeman, I would get the Micro Traxion.

[hank moon]

A good, recent thread about this same topic on the Yahoo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/65116


Brief excerpt (out of 30 posts)



...it is much easier to learn how to ascend using a system made with 'standard' ascenders. Once ascending techniques (esp. body movement/muscle
memory) have been learned, the transition to emergency' and/or improvised ascenders will be relatively painless.

[reflection]

Canyon Ascending Kit: Hank has it right and those that have ascended more than a few times know the wisdom of learning proper set up, posture, body movement and efficiency when going up. An emergency ascending kit seems to be the prime interest for most? I guess a tibloc atop, connected to a foot loop, and a micro traxion at the waist will be light and "might" be quite efficient? A ropeman atop would also work.

Myself, for in canyon travel, with NO plans for ascending, I carry a Petzl Basic, a Metolious pocket foot ladder and maybe a micro traxion or ropeman.

If there is planned ascending (via the modified frog method) then for us, a different system exists. Basic/Speed stirrup, Croll at waist, and caving harness for low attach point. And maybe a foot pantin, if climbing against a wall (vs. free hang).

Too bad there are not places where folk can try out different gear and methods - before making a purchase. There are a lot of styles out there and some are very fond of their tiblocs. If you are in that camp fine. If you have have some hesitation and wish to try something else though, then a ropeman, basic (and a handful of other climbing/aborist grab units on the market) should work OK. For canyons, I'd not bother with a handled ascender.

Don't know where the original poster lives. If on the Wasatch Front, I'd be happy to show you gear and lead you up a line in my back yard trees/ladders. (If you are down Zion way, Hank might show you a few tips and tricks - he's quite the ascender). But the planned ascending game changes (easy, going up a line with no weight on the back) when wet wet suits and wet ropes are dragged up behind you (in your pack). Mercy, I'd rather not do that with cord and prussic - or even a sling and a klemheist. good luck!

[2065toyota]

It seems that from our little experience of practice and one real time experience that ascending ropes is easy with any hardware. Getting over the lip or wherever the rope contacts the rock has a lot less to do with equipment but more with technique and practice. After our one night or practice with multiple types of equipment and multiple personalities I feel 1000 times more prepared if an emergency every presented itself. Some of our group had ascenders for years, but actually, including me, had never actually used them. The real life usage is much different than the concept and it should be practiced inn a controlled environment before it is actually needed. Im in St. George and if someone wants to use my tiblocs they are more than welcome to try them before buying

[ilipichicuma]

In my opinion, tiblocs aren't too bad, but they can tend to tear up the rope if you don't make absolutely sure that they are totally set before putting your weight on them. I've also ascended on prussics, and I don't know what you all are talking about, I think they suck really bad. Maybe that's just because I'm fat, but I had to loosen them up before I could make them slide up the rope and ended up hanging on the rope a lot and getting really tired arms and leg. That's just my two cents, though. I haven't ascended a lot.

[SRG]

For me, full size ascenders that are built for big-wall trad climbs are overkill for an emergency canyoneering ascender kit... too much weight, money and space in my pack.

My kit is a tibloc on top and a prussik on bottom. I've stuck rope pulls and had to ascend multiple times(including free-rappels) and this setup works for me. The tibloc is super easy to use and smooth.

I dislike using two prussiks because when I stand up in my footloop its super awkward to hold onto the rope with one hand(for balance) and try and break the top prussik with the other hand.

I always use a biner block on rappel, so I ascend a fixed rope. I'm under the impression that prussiks can ascend double strands, while other types of ascenders cannot.... so prussiks may be preferable if using a toss-n-go style... I dunno though I've go no experience with this...maybe someone who does can comment?

[DesertDuke]

I am watching this thread with interest. I feel much safer having nice, solid. hold the handle and clip to it Jumar with me and then use a prusik for the second one. I have played with them for practice and while climbing, but never HAD to use it. I have 1/100th the experience that most posters on here have so my setup is not something to mirror, just saying that I have always felt better with a good, solid, clip my harness to it Jumar in my pack. I hope that it is wasted money and energy and that I never stick a 'biner block but I suck at this enough that it is sure to happen some day! I have ascended with two prusiks just messing around before and think I could in a pinch too but feel much better with that big chunk of aluminum with me. I think I find it analogous to why I usually pack heat when I go backpacking, even when not in griz country. I won't be needing that lead, but it sure makes a good cure for things that go bump in the night!

Best one?? Hmmmmm....I doubt my setup is the "best".

[zul]

Currently leaning toward the Ropeman MK3 and Tibloc. The Ropeman MK3 is suggested for 9-11mm ropes. Can it handle 8-8.3mm ropes? Experience, thoughts, ideas??

Listed at $54 on Backcountry.com for the Ropeman MK3.

zul

[zul]

And another question: Where and how does everyone carry/hold their prussik loops? I have fumbled with mine ... suggest?

[ilipichicuma]

Currently leaning toward the Ropeman MK3 and Tibloc. The Ropeman MK3 is suggested for 9-11mm ropes. Can it handle 8-8.3mm ropes? Experience, thoughts, ideas??

Listed at $54 on Backcountry.com for the Ropeman MK3.

zul

My friend has a ropeman 2 and I saw him using it on 8 mm ropes just fine. I don't know about the MK3, though.


And another question: Where and how does everyone carry/hold their prussik loops? I have fumbled with mine ... suggest?

I tie mine into like a figure 14 (figure 8 on steroids) and hang them from a carabiner. It's pretty effective, they're out of the way for the most part and easy to untie if I need them.

[ratagonia]

And another question: Where and how does everyone carry/hold their prussik loops? I have fumbled with mine ... suggest?

For prusiks, I use an over-the-shoulder nylon sling and use a Bachman knot. I have slings at all times when in the canyons; and a Bachman knot has a handle on it that makes it a lot easier to use.

Tom

[Summit2Sea]

I use (2) ropeman 2's... Their multi-use, light weight and have always worked great for me... I'll typically use different rigging methods depending on the type of edge, slope and/or overhang I'm ascending...

[zul]

I use (2) ropeman 2's... Their multi-use, light weight and have always worked great for me... I'll typically use different rigging methods depending on the type of edge, slope and/or overhang I'm ascending...

The online purchase is in:

1 Tiblock @ $30 and 1 Ropeman 3 @ $54 should be a good start. The Wild Country (Ropeman) web site hails it to work on 'skinny ropes' and 'thin alpine ropes'. Betting that the lawyer team set the working min at 9mm ... :roll: Practice will begin next week. That'll give me some time to setup some different types of prusik loops/straps.

Thx to all for the great suggestions and ideas!! Practice will be more productive as result.

Would be great if I could video/post up some of my noob ascending practice, but alas I've dropped my camera into a water filled pot hole :facepalm1:

Such lessons these canyons teach.

[canyoncaver]

I agree with others that to properly learn ascending technique you may want to practice on full-sized gear and then downsize from there. This is a good resource for anyone looking to set up a system: http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Vertical/Frog/

Another consideration is that in most canyons you will only be using your ascending rig in the case of an emergency. (Even a stuck rope is a low-level emergency) When emergencies arise is not the time to be learning your gear. I would suggest having a system that you have trained on extensively, so you can efficiently put it into action when needed. I would also suggest either wearing the up gear at all times or having gear that can be quickly attached and used. Think thunderstorm approaching or your buddy is in trouble = no time to be fumbling with unfamiliar gear.

[MrAdam]

If there is planned ascending (via the modified frog method) then for us, a different system exists. Basic/Speed stirrup, Croll at waist, and caving harness for low attach point. And maybe a foot pantin, if climbing against a wall (vs. free hang).

Can a Basic be used in a frog system in place of the croll?

[zul]

I agree with others that to properly learn ascending technique you may want to practice on full-sized gear and then downsize from there. This is a good resource for anyone looking to set up a system: http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Vertical/Frog/

Another consideration is that in most canyons you will only be using your ascending rig in the case of an emergency. (Even a stuck rope is a low-level emergency) When emergencies arise is not the time to be learning your gear. I would suggest having a system that you have trained on extensively, so you can efficiently put it into action when needed. I would also suggest either wearing the up gear at all times or having gear that can be quickly attached and used. Think thunderstorm approaching or your buddy is in trouble = no time to be fumbling with unfamiliar gear.

I will not be practicing in a canyon. Starting in the garage ascending 3-5ft over crash pads and spotters ... then moving outside for more practice, practice, practice. There are lots of 'practice points' all around the area in which I live. Some day, when we get a rope stuck or find a pot in challenging condition, we might be better prepared. That's the plan.

I don't have hundreds of dollars for full scale systems or courses at this time. It's an opinion but I certainly hope that people on this forum don't find this to be a careless approach? This forum has been friendly, helpful and bite free ... thus far ... a great resource!

Back to jugging!

[reflection]

Mr. Adam. You ask, can the Petzl Basic be used in place of the Petzl Croll?

In context, for planned ascending, the Basic is "above" and slides up with either or both hands.
The Croll, if used, is attached at the waist (and fits snug with a sling over the head or a light chest torse);
If the croll is used properly, and the rope line is straight and unobstructed, the rope slides effortlessly through the device
and there is NO need to grab the line and pull it through after each stroke.
If on the other hand, one used for example a Ropeman, or Tibloc or even a micro traxion (at the waist), there is a need (on each stroke) to grab the line and pull it through (under) the bottom device; less of a need with the traxion if it is set firmly.
Could a Basic be set at the waist. YES, but it wouldn't be efficient and would be a waste of energy having to grab the bottom line and pull it through. The device is made to "handle" and not sit as a waist slide device. The strength of the Basic is that it is easy to grab with either hand and the effort transforms to the full arm and shoulder rather than the hand, which can cramp up on long ascents.

I appreciate and understand there are a diversity of styles. And that some/many have learned enough that they can go up a line safely and semi efficiently - with whatever devices they are using. My epiphany came though after meeting with some cavers, seeing their devices and styles and then conforming/adapting it to planned canyon ascending where we would often ascend 300-400 ft after going down a canyon. Saftey is most important, but once on a long haul up, efficiency (assuming one is set up right and knows what they are doing) is the prime driver. And having gear that is adjustable, to be used when going over a bump or lip is important. And if going down a canyon (and one plans to come back up) often slings or lines are attached to be used as hand/arm grabs to assist on tough upclimbs where one has to squeeze through a spot or ascend a tight section.

It's a big depends out there - if folk carry gear and never practically use it, then I guess the lightest and simplist rules. If the odds exist that someone may need to ascend a line, then it's a roll of dice, do you carry a bit more weight or stick with the light stuff? If ascending is planned, most would go to a different system that balances weight with adjustablility and efficiency.

I'll say it again, I've used a tibloc, a variety of ropeman and other "grab" devices for my top piece and a variety for my bottom.
On a short climb the hand is not going cramp if it's grabbing a small device. On a longer climb there can be some ache.
I've tried a variety of devices in canyons, I try to pay attention to what cavers are using, and to date still enjoy the Basic as the upper handled unit. (some would say, what a waste, and too heavy). Well roll the dice folk and the day you have to go up, 100, 150 or 200 to undo a stuck rope, then maybe your opinions will slide or change as you are going up the line - or maybe not. Some folk are not adaptable, or flexible. Their manner or style is the right way! Heck, folk that are adults, should do as they please. Or they should be told/ordered what to do. Efficiency, find your gear, manner, style and stroke and go with it, I guess.

[hank moon]

Hey, there's some new kids on the block...just saw the new Petzl Croll and Basic at the OR show in SLC. Wow, so James Bond in their miniature glory. Check 'em out:

57407


57408

Old Croll and Basic : 130g and 135 g
New ones: 90 g each :hail2thechief:

[ratagonia]

Hey, there's some new kids on the block...just saw the new Petzl Croll and Basic at the OR show in SLC. Wow, so James Bond in their miniature glory. Check 'em out:

Old Croll and Basic : 130g and 135 g
New ones: 90 g each :hail2thechief:

Saw them too - awesome! really streamlined them. Available next spring.

Tom

[Bootboy]

I have to wait that long?!?!?

Its nice that petzl took a word from the cavers about the croll wearing through the top plate from muddy ropes. Looks like they added a steel insert for longer life. I was just contemplating that problem the other day. the answer is on its way... Reduced weight and bulk as well AWESOME!

[Bootboy]

P.s.

To contribute to the OP...

I do a fair amount for tree work and have learned many alternative methods for ascending ropes. There are a million ways to skin this cat.

If you are going to use cord for ascending, use an eye to eye cord instead of a prusik loop and learn either a VT or a distel hitch. They are faster and easier to tie, release more easily, and they don't work their way tight like a 3 wrap prusik will. If you can set up with a micro pulley to tend some slack, you'll learn that ascending on cord isn't that unpleasant. If you have to ascend with extra weight you can set up a traveling 2:1 on the rope very easily with minimal gear that will allow you to receive assistance from the ground. Im headed out of town for a bit of fishing and climbing in the Windrivers (be jealous), but if I get some time next week I'll do some photos for demonstration purposses.

Tip from a tree guy.

[ratagonia]

P.s.

To contribute to the OP...

I do a fair amount for tree work and have learned many alternative methods for ascending ropes. There are a million ways to skin this cat.

If you are going to use cord for ascending, use an eye to eye cord instead of a prusik loop and learn either a VT or a distel hitch. They are faster and easier to tie, release more easily, and they don't work their way tight like a 3 wrap prusik will. If you can set up with a micro pulley to tend some slack, you'll learn that ascending on cord isn't that unpleasant. If you have to ascend with extra weight you can set up a traveling 2:1 on the rope very easily with minimal gear that will allow you to receive assistance from the ground. Im headed out of town for a bit of fishing and climbing in the Windrivers (be jealous), but if I get some time next week I'll do some photos for demonstration purposses.

Tip from a tree guy.

Have I whined about this before???

Every person on rappel should have a way to ascending at hand, on them, whenever they rappel. Learning complex, efficient systems that require lots of specialized gear might be useful from an intellectual curiosity standpoint; however, I really think what canyoneers NEED is a SIMPLE system that uses minimal gear. SIMPLE because when using it say once a year, it has to be remembered from the murky past. Maybe a laminated setup card would be a useful complement to the actual gear required.

Anyway, yes, lots of useful tools out there. Good to see Petzl bringing their tools up to date. I'm probably sticking with my system: One Microtraxion, one tibloc, three over-the-shoulder slings, two newish Attache carabiners.

Tom

[Bootboy]

Tom, this is what I am saying. If people do a little home work they can find a system that is simpler, more efficient, lighter, and more suited to their individual needs. Im offering a little info to help folks uncomplicate their rigs.

The 2:1 I mentioned is a system that you can use fine on your own but, if needed, it allows people on the ground to assist you. I'll post a picture when I get back. It's really simple.

I always carry tiblocks, an eye to eye cord, 2 micro pulleys, and some 60cm slings. Sometimes a gri gri.

I use a light version of this for the effective 2:1. For ground aid, all you have to do is advance the ascender and the folks on the ground pull the rope to lift you. Repeat.

http://www.newtribe.com/documents/tip4.htm

[ratagonia]

Tom, this is what I am saying. If people do a little home work they can find a system that is simpler, more efficient, lighter, and more suited to their individual needs. Im offering a little info to help folks uncomplicate their rigs.

The 2:1 I mentioned is a system that you can use fine on your own but, if needed, it allows people on the ground to assist you. I'll post a picture when I get back. It's really simple.

I always carry tiblocks, an eye to eye cord, 2 micro pulleys, and some 60cm slings. Sometimes a gri gri.

I use a light version of this for the effective 2:1. For ground aid, all you have to do is advance the ascender and the folks on the ground pull the rope to lift you. Repeat.

http://www.newtribe.com/documents/tip4.htm

Yes, but...

Your definition of "simple" and my definition of "simple" are worlds apart.

I don't think people should spend 48 hours training in all aspects of ascending using a wide variety of tools. I think people should spend an hour training with a simple system, then practice it a few hours as available, then call it good. And never use it.

Tom