No fires in Uintas, This includes camp stoves. Seriously???

[JONBOYLEMON]

We are taking the Scouts to Grand Daddy this weekend and I called the rangers district to see if there was anything we should be aware of.

The nice lady said, YES, NO FIRES PERIOD. I asked about camp stoves to boil water, she said NO.

I asked again to clarify and sure nuff, no flame PERIOD. She said there will be a press confrence today.

Anyone have the lowdown on this? That really changes the game for us as it real hard to cook fish over a sunny rock!

What was ironic is she said there was still snow up there and that it was very muddy! So apperently its the dirt that is wet and the trees are dry.

[CarpeyBiggs]

no camp stoves? i've never heard of that restriction in my life... pretty ludicrous if true. more than likely that ranger is misinformed.

if true, there's gonna be a shitstorm over this.

[CarpeyBiggs]

wow. i just called the kamas ranger office, and they confirmed the ban is universal on all flames.

she also said "call back tomorrow, we hope to have the ban lifted on camp stoves by the weekend." which to me suggests somebody screwed up. i've never heard of a camp stove ban anywhere. certainly open flames i can understand, but this seems outrageous. a camp stove is far from an open flame.

we'll see what happens. no hot meals is going to keep a lot of people out of the mountains. or actually, turn lots of law abiding backcountry users into miscreants. can't imagine what it would take to enforce it.

[denaliguide]

apparently a camp stove is what started the fire last month up in the poudre canyon above fort collins.

[Scott P]

i've never heard of a camp stove ban anywhere.

It happens in parts of Colorado sometimes (when fire danger is extreme), especially in areas affected by pine beetle kill. During those times, not only are camp stoves banned, but so is smoking outside a vehicle.

[moffer]

Just 3 weeks ago a 8k acre fire was started here in CO when a camping stove was knocked over. Just an accident, but still happened. Though where this happened everything was extremely dry.

[JONBOYLEMON]

Dang Carpey, started reading your post and my mind lept to the conclusion I was wrong, until I finished reading your post.

But the last thing I want is to start a fire in a place I love, but it does seem very problematic to inform people of the ban as there are lots of access points to the high country and what about the people who have been up there all week and would have no way to know they were breaking the law?

[CarpeyBiggs]

it was obvious when i talked to her on the phone she'd had a few calls already, and she wasn't sure the camp stove ban was actually true. i can't find it anywhere, on any press release or official announcement.

my guess is there is some sort of miscommunication.

[stefan]

.

That really changes the game for us as it real hard to cook fish over a sunny rock!

.

how about ceviche?

[keithd]

The order can be found here:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/uwcnf

There is an exemption for a "stove or grill that is solely fueled by liquid petroleum fuels." Is that isobutane?

[Painted Horse]

Or here

Ban on all open flame on all public lands in Utah until further notice

http://www.utahfireinfo.gov/fire_restrictions/2012/InteragencyRestrictions2012.pdf

[JONBOYLEMON]

Well I wont be packing a sheep herders stove with a spark arrestor or a 5' chimney!

I am interpreting exemption #2 to allow a backpack stove.

[bigred72]

Backpacking stoves are okay to use.

[DesertDuke]

I used to camp at Lake Mead every year. Camp fires were constantly banned because it was a drought year. One year it was wet and I thought "finally the ban will be lifted". That year the ban was listed "because of the growth from the wet year".

[dmMatrix]

So it looks like its been a few days since anyone has updated this thread.... I didn't click on any of the links that people posted because I just got off work and don't feel like clicking on links.

Is this going to be a permanent ban for the rest of the year? or is this just a temporary until we get some rain? I have a couple small trips planned but don't have a big trip to the uintas until the end of July.... 5 days without a campfire is going to suck hard.

[keithd]

I would expect the ban to be in place until the snow starts falling again. That's just what happens when there's such a bad winter.

I haven't built a campfire since I became friends with the guy who prosecutes forest fires for the feds here in Utah. It's amazing how many millions of dollars he gets out of people who accidentally cause forest fires. And he tells me horror stories of how there have been times that people have put out their fires, but roots below ground have started smoldering below the campfire that they don't know about, and the root catches fire and burns up to the tree, starting a forest fire. So it's not just irresponsible carelessness that causes these fires...it can also just be bad luck.

Not only is there the fear of being sued for everything I'm worth and then some, but I don't want to be responsible for destroying a forest. So I just don't risk a campfire in the Rockies.

[JONBOYLEMON]

Funny as I also know a guy involved in Forest Fires in Utah and he said that it makes a big difference when people are being as responsible as possible in if they go after someone or not.

Anyways, we had no fires on the trip and it sucked! Would have loved to cook up a few nice big brookies and cuts we caught! Oh well. It aint worth burning up the forest for a meal, but tell you what, as it was raining and hailing on us, it seemed like a great time to go back to camp for a fire.

[Sombeech]

What's the fine?

[dentedvw]

Are they going to ban cigarette smoking too? Sounds more reasonable than camp stoves, but I am not an expert, just a guy who watches careless people thrown burning cigarettes from cars all the time.

[JONBOYLEMON]

Heres a funny part of this story. While at Grand Daddy there was a guy from the DWR, yes an actual Fish Biologist dude, fishing the outlet of a stream the entire 2 days we were there. Cut after cut after cut. You couldnt help but catch them as they were spawning 4' away in the stream.

The boys were more perturbed than I was. I fully understand wanting to stay where the fishing is hot, and Saturday morning they mentioned they were going to get some breakfast so we waited a few minutes and then fished the honey hole for 10 minutes before we had to leave, but here's the funny part. They were camped right on the lake! They may have been 201' from the lake. There were lots of others this close as well. The signs every where were very clear 1200' from a lake! We were 3/4 of a mile from the lake and therefore spent a good deal of time walking to and from camp.

I really try and teach the boys proper etiquette and responsibility and dont claim to be perfect, but the more I am out with the Scouts, I think the more the scouts are some of the better stewards of the land. Yeah sure, there always the really bad example, but I am beginning to think Scouts have an undue bad rap.

The part I found most irritating was that a "enforcement type" would so blatantly break the rules.

[keithd]

Funny as I also know a guy involved in Forest Fires in Utah and he said that it makes a big difference when people are being as responsible as possible in if they go after someone or not.

Did I say responsibility didn't play a role in the decision to prosecute? I don't think so. I said that people get prosecuted even when they accidentally start a forest fire. Most prosecutions come from accidental forest fires that are started from a campfire during a fire restriction. In that case, no matter how responsible the fire is, it's still illegal.

He sued the boy scouts a few years ago for exactly that: a group built a camp fire during a fire ban that sparked a forest fire.

I don't know if there are fines or if they get sued for fire fighting and recovery expenses.

[Scott P]

Are they going to ban cigarette smoking too?

Yes, unless you are in a vehicle, building, cleared area or developed area. See #2 in the below link (also above):

http://www.utahfireinfo.gov/fire_restrictions/2012/InteragencyRestrictions2012.pdf

[stefan]

What's the fine?

they should probably make it 50-100K or maybe higher.

[JONBOYLEMON]

Did I say responsibility didn't play a role in the decision to prosecute? I don't think so. I said that people get prosecuted even when they accidentally start a forest fire. Most prosecutions come from accidental forest fires that are started from a campfire during a fire restriction. In that case, no matter how responsible the fire is, it's still illegal.

He sued the boy scouts a few years ago for exactly that: a group built a camp fire during a fire ban that sparked a forest fire.

I don't know if there are fines or if they get sued for fire fighting and recovery expenses.

Sorry if you took my line as an argument. I was just saying it was funny that both of us know a fire prosecutor dude. He is a pretty nice guy and the kind of guy who should be in that position as hes is very reasonable and level headed.

[reverse_dyno]

Whats the difference if a thunderstorm sparks a fire or a person accidentally sparks one? The difference is that the government doesn't have the power to sue God, it would if it could. It is a joke to go after people that accidentally start a forest fire. It is the public's land! And the public will accidentally burn it. Why not go after home owners for the cost of putting their house fire out. They have a larger lobby than us outdoor people have, that's why.

There is absolutely no reason to have a state wide ban on camp fires. Have any of you ever heard of a salt fire breaking out in the middle of the Bonneville salt flats? In many places in the San Rafael Swell there isn't enough flammable material to burn. Its all sand.

I have lived in fire prone states before, and they never institute state wide bands on camp fires. It is always area specific. This state wide ban just shows how little the state government cares about outdoorsmen and women.

[keithd]

Sorry if you took my line as an argument. I was just saying it was funny that both of us know a fire prosecutor dude. He is a pretty nice guy and the kind of guy who should be in that position as hes is very reasonable and level headed.

Yeah, that is funny! I don't always agree with the laws, but it certainly scares me enough not to want to build a fire.

[dmMatrix]

So I have a quick question for you guys, and seriously, I just need clarification to make sure:

Section 1 in the ban says: Setting, building, maintaining, attending or using open fires of any kind, except campfires built within the facilities provided for them in improved campgrounds, picnic areas or permanently improved places of habitation.

So, I can still have a fire at... lets say Butterfly Lake campground because its improved right? so realistically everyone is making this out to be more than it is? I could be mis-interpreting this though. I also heard that mini backpacking burners could still be used. Could someone elaborate?

[Scott P]

double post

[Scott P]

Whats the difference if a thunderstorm sparks a fire or a person accidentally sparks one? The difference is that the government doesn't have the power to sue God, it would if it could. It is a joke to go after people that accidentally start a forest fire. It is the public's land! And the public will accidentally burn it. Why not go after home owners for the cost of putting their house fire out. They have a larger lobby than us outdoor people have, that's why.

There is absolutely no reason to have a state wide ban on camp fires. Have any of you ever heard of a salt fire breaking out in the middle of the Bonneville salt flats? In many places in the San Rafael Swell there isn't enough flammable material to burn. Its all sand.

I have lived in fire prone states before, and they never institute state wide bands on camp fires. It is always area specific. This state wide ban just shows how little the state government cares about outdoorsmen and women.

What’s the difference if a (rock fall causes a traffic accident) or a person accidentally causes one? The difference is that the government doesn't have thepower to sue God, it would if it could. It is a joke to go after people that accidentally (cause a car accident). It is the public's road! And the public will (cause accidents). Why not go after home owners for the cost of putting their house fire out. They have a larger lobby than us outdoor people have, that's why.

There is absolutely no reason to have state (traffic laws). Have any of you ever heard of a (traffic accident) out in the middle of the Bonneville saltflats? In many places in the San Rafael Swell (aren’t any roads to have accidents on). Its all sand.

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PS, please explain your reasoning to the family of the family of the person whom was just killed in the Colorado wildfire. Plus all the firemen/women whom have died recently fighting them (personally I had a friends killed doing this). It's true that it is part of their job, but it doesn't mean that people shouldn't be held responsible for causing a fire.

[Deadeye008]

So I have a quick question for you guys, and seriously, I just need clarification to make sure:

Section 1 in the ban says: Setting, building, maintaining, attending or using open fires of any kind, except campfires built within the facilities provided for them in improved campgrounds, picnic areas or permanently improved places of habitation.

So, I can still have a fire at... lets say Butterfly Lake campground because its improved right? so realistically everyone is making this out to be more than it is? I could be mis-interpreting this though. I also heard that mini backpacking burners could still be used. Could someone elaborate?

Yes, you can have a campfire in an improved campground with a fire ring/pit. You can also use a backpacking stove or any other type of stove/flame that uses petroleum based fuel. People on here are making a big deal about it because most of us do not like to camp in improved campgrounds and we like to have a fire in the backcountry.

[dmMatrix]

Yes, you can have a campfire in an improved campground with a fire ring/pit. You can also use a backpacking stove or any other type of stove/flame that uses petroleum based fuel. People on here are making a big deal about it because most of us do not like to camp in improved campgrounds and we like to have a fire in the backcountry.

Thanks for the clarification on that. I too like to hike in with virtually no food and cook everything I catch for a few days... which is going to suck for now.

It just seemed that a couple individuals were making it sound like the mention of fire at all was going to send you to jail ha ha.

If we get some good rain around the end of the month do you think they will lift the restriction?

[JONBOYLEMON]

I suspect they will just leave it in place all year. If they were concerned about implimenting it like a smart guy would, they would have excluded certain areas for now, but it was easy to just ban the entire state.

But yeah, as you sit through a hail storm in the Uintahs you kinda get the feeling that lightning would be a bigger threat than your little campfire ever would be......

The bummer is I have canceled plans now for Pine Island Lake until they lift the ban as I want to cook a big fat Brookie on some coals after a great day of fishing!

[Scott P]

The bummer is I have canceled plans now for Pine Island Lake until they lift the ban as I want to cook a big fat Brookie on some coals after a great day of fishing!

FYI, campfires are never legal at Pine Island Lake and haven't been for over 7+ years now. It's probably not what you want to hear, but don't shoot the messenger. :wink:

Map where fires are always banned (all areas marking in pink which are closer than 0.25 miles to a lake-in which most areas in pink it's hard to even get that far from any lake):

5548555486

[middlefork]

Here is a good link if you are interested in why these restrictions are in place or are intrested in wild land fire at all.

http://www.nifc.gov/nicc/index.htm

And so far in Utah ther have been 84 human caused fires for 10280 acres and 12 lightning caused fires for 3731 acres. Plain to see where the problems come from.

And I can't find the link but I'm pretty sure Scott P is correct on the Grandaddy Basin.:cry1:

[JONBOYLEMON]

1/4 mile from a lake you can have a camp fire @ Pine Island?

I am a bit confused. I am pretty sure I could find a spot 1/4 from the lake to camp. Or am I reading this wrong?


Also, on the stats listed above, I wonder what % of each fire, "Human vs lightning" includes brush fires on Lake Mountain. I suspect cheat grass would be responsible for alot of acres burned up.

[Scott P]

1/4 mile from a lake you can have a camp fire @ Pine Island?

I am a bit confused. I am pretty sure I could find a spot 1/4 from the lake to camp. Or am I reading this wrong?

You are reading it right, but getting more than 1/4 of a mile from a lake around Pine Island is harder than it sounds, though possible (it's not just the named lakes, but any lake over 1 acre). The area to the west of Pine Island is a steep ridge and then a drop into the canyon. The best bet would probably try to find somewhere in the middle of the area between Pine Island, Governer Dern, Pinto and Margo Lakes, though it could be pretty rocky

[JONBOYLEMON]

A rocky place big enough for a small fire is all I need! Certainly there are established fire pits up there 1/4 mile from a lake. There used to be.

[middlefork]

Also, on the stats listed above, I wonder what % of each fire, "Human vs lightning" includes brush fires on Lake Mountain. I suspect cheat grass would be responsible for alot of acres burned up.

Here is a list by agency. My guess is Lake Mountain is either BLM or ST.
http://www.utahfireinfo.gov/fire_information/ytd_fires.html

USFS is interesting too.

[dmMatrix]

I wonder if the random fire places next to random picnic tables count as "established".... Maybe Ill pack up an entire picnic table and a bag of cement and see if someone gets pissed :roflol::lol8:

[Caddis]

A couple of years ago, we went up into the Granddaddy basin and were stopped by a ranger. He said that one of the main reasons for keeping people from camping within a 1/4 of a mile from any lake is that the people have stripped the trees of all their lower limbs up to 10 to 12 feet above the ground.

[Scott P]

Colorado just entered Stage 2 fire restrictions.

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20120619/NEWS/120619813/1001&parentprofile=1062 (http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20120619/NEWS/120619813/1001&parentprofile=1062)

Stage 3 is closing all public land to public use. Keep this in mind if you are thinking of breaking the fire restictions. Too many people breaking the law could cause Stage 3 to be implemented.

[IntrepidXJ]

Colorado just entered Stage 2 fire restrictions.

http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20120619/NEWS/120619813/1001&parentprofile=1062 (http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20120619/NEWS/120619813/1001&parentprofile=1062)

Stage 3 is closing all public land to public use. Keep this in mind if you are thinking ofbreaking the fire restictions. Too many people breaking the law could cause Stage 3 to be implemented.


Stage 3 would seriously suck!

[sumsh]

Yes, you can have a campfire in an improved campground with a fire ring/pit. You can also use a backpacking stove or any other type of stove/flame that uses petroleum based fuel. People on here are making a big deal about it because most of us do not like to camp in improved campgrounds and we like to have a fire in the backcountry.
So, for further clarification, my Jetboil stove that uses isobutane (I think) would not be allowed?

[Deadeye008]

So, for further clarification, my Jetboil stove that uses isobutane (I think) would not be allowed?

That would be considered a backpacking stove and is allowed.

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2

[sumsh]

That would be considered a backpacking stove and is allowed.

Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk 2
Thanks.

[Sun Dance]

Are Dutch Ovens and Coleman Stoves allowed on the Swell?

[Scott P]

Dutch ovens, no; Coleman stoves, yes, though why anyone wants to camp in the Swell right now is beyond me.

[Deadeye008]

Are Dutch Ovens and Coleman Stoves allowed on the Swell?

If you're using the Dutch Oven on the Coleman stove, then yes. Using the Dutch Oven on an open fire, no.

[dmMatrix]

My little sister took this photo earlier today in Woodland Park, Colorado..... I know it isn't the Uintas but I thought this picture seemed somewhat relevent.

Kinda crazy, she got evacuated from work and her house is on pre-evac status.

55764

[JONBOYLEMON]

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=21545539&nid=148&title=camp-fires-allowed-on-national-forest-land&s_cid=queue-1


Looks like we are back to having camp fires in alot of places!

[mudjumper]

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=21545539&nid=148&title=camp-fires-allowed-on-national-forest-land&s_cid=queue-1


Looks like we are back to having camp fires in alot of places!


I just got back from a weekend up at Ostler and Amethyst lake. On the way in I stopped at the ranger station there just before the turn-off to Christmas Meadows (coming from the Evanston side), and they said fires are allowed in existing fire rings. We camped at BR-24 and boy were we glad for the fires. It was PLENTY wet, and we for 3-4 hours of rain each day. It's plenty wet up there.

[Scott P]

I just got back from a weekend up at Ostler and Amethyst lake. On the way in I stopped at the ranger station there just before the turn-off to Christmas Meadows (coming from the Evanston side), and they said fires are allowed in existing fire rings. We camped at BR-24 and boy were we glad for the fires

They really told you this? :facepalm1: BR-24 is actually right in the middle of the permanent fire ban in Amethyst Basin. It hasn't been legal to build a fire there for many years.

I still can believe that the rangers didn't know their own rules though. It seems to be getting more and more common these days.