Canyon Rescue Course

[kugath]

Spent much of last week participating in a Canyon Rescue Course with Rich Carlson down at the American Canyoneering Academy in Cedar City Utah. I enjoyed learning more about mechanical advantage, lowering & hauling systems, various pick off techniques, high lines, etc. Rich does a nice job teaching information that falls along the spectrum of application for recreational canyoneers to professional rescuers. The course is principle based which allows canyoneers to develop a variety of skills for utilizing case by case...we spent a great deal of time problem solving and applying and experimenting with various techniques. Besides Rich's excellent teaching I also benefitted from interactions with my classmates who came from many backgrounds.

Some pictures from the Course:

sk

[Scott Card]

Nicely done. You were with two very good friends of mine I believe, Steve (Spidey) and Clark. I am excited to see what they have learned. Probably not excited to be the old heavy guy that they will practice rescuing.....


:haha:

[Bootboy]

Hmm, just because you may end up having to work with used canyoneering rope in a real life rescue scenario, doesn't mean you have to train with it. A few things about that setup I'm seeing in the pictures makes me a little nervous. Rich might do well to take a rescue course of his own from someone like Reed Thorn.

And leave that damn totem at home. If Your packing a rescue tripod you'll be certain to bring a real rigging plate.

I would recommend also taking another course on high-angle rescue to see how it's done in the world fire and rescue and SAR.

[Scott Card]

:facepalm1:

I'll let others speak to this but this course sounded like it was designed for a different purpose. As I heard it, the tripod was brought out the last day to give the participants some exposure to heavy rescue. The course was more of a rapid response, in-canyon techniques....but again, I wasn't there. Also, how many SAR guys in the Swell, North Wash, Robbers Roost, Lake Powell area know this stuff? I'll stick my neck out a bit but my understanding is that there are precious few. Do you have a problem with Rich or with the content of the training?

This could be a good place to start this discussion....

Is it better to get people out of a canyon using what you know and have with you or split the group and call SAR???

I'll start. It seems if you can safely get the victim out using what you have, including the totum, I would think it the best of all worlds to not call SAR. It seems that learning the skills taught in this class would perhaps relieve SAR from a lot of calls or at least put a couple more skilled people in the position to assist SAR if needed.

[ratagonia]

:facepalm1:

I'll let others speak to this but this course sounded like it was designed for a different purpose. As I heard it, the tripod was brought out the last day to give the participants some exposure to heavy rescue. The course was more of a rapid response, in-canyon techniques....but again, I wasn't there. Also, how many SAR guys in the Swell, North Wash, Robbers Roost, Lake Powell area know this stuff? I'll stick my neck out a bit but my understanding is that there are precious few. Do you have a problem with Rich or with the content of the training?

This could be a good place to start this discussion....

Is it better to get people out of a canyon using what you know and have with you or split the group and call SAR???

I'll start. It seems if you can safely get the victim out using what you have, including the totum, I would think it the best of all worlds to not call SAR. It seems that learning the skills taught in this class would perhaps relieve SAR from a lot of calls or at least put a couple more skilled people in the position to assist SAR if needed.

Actually the North Wash team out of Hanksville did an excellent job on their recent rescue in Hog 2. Perhaps the days of the word "canyoneer" being heard as "some dumb lost hiker" are over. At least in Hanksville, they know what they are doing.

Rich's course is about canyon self-rescue, mostly for amateur canyoneers, and is not training for SAR-Team heavy rescues. Perhaps, Bootboy, before opining quite so vehemently, you'd perhaps read about the course: http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/content.php?19-courses

Not a whole lot of information there, but...

In other words, it would be a valuable course for most of the members of this Forum (Canyoneering Sub-Cult). I certainly got good value from the course.

Hey, how about that. ME, defending Rich Carlson... :ne_nau: :facepalm1: :nod: :cool2:

Is it better to get people out of a canyon using what you know and have with you or split the group and call SAR???

Yeah, both. If you have the skills, get the show on the road.

Tom :moses:

[Scott Card]

Hey, how about that. ME, defending Rich Carlson... :ne_nau: :facepalm1: :nod: :cool2:


Tom :moses: :scared:

:haha:

[ghawk]

Hey, how about that. ME, defending Rich Carlson... :ne_nau: :facepalm1: :nod: :cool2:

Tom :moses:

:eek2:

[restrac2000]

Not to mention that Rich has spent countless hours co-training with other organizations before he designs his courses. Bootboy's critique doesn't hold much water in that issue.

[ratagonia]

Not to mention that Rich has spent countless hours co-training with other organizations before he designs his courses. Bootboy's critique doesn't hold much water in that issue.

Phillip too - what is this opposite day???? :crazy: :roll: :crazycobasa:

Just to be clear, both Phillip and I appreciate that Rich has many good qualities, and training people is one of the things he does well. We are also cognizant that he has other qualities, too.

Tom :moses:

[Scott Card]

Phillip too - what is this opposite day???? :crazy: :roll: :crazycobasa:



:roflol:

[Bootboy]

:facepalm1:

I'll let others speak to this but this course sounded like it was designed for a different purpose. As I heard it, the tripod was brought out the last day to give the participants some exposure to heavy rescue. The course was more of a rapid response, in-canyon techniques....but again, I wasn't there. Also, how many SAR guys in the Swell, North Wash, Robbers Roost, Lake Powell area know this stuff? I'll stick my neck out a bit but my understanding is that there are precious few. Do you have a problem with Rich or with the content of the training?

This could be a good place to start this discussion....

Is it better to get people out of a canyon using what you know and have with you or split the group and call SAR???

I'll start. It seems if you can safely get the victim out using what you have, including the totum, I would think it the best of all worlds to not call SAR. It seems that learning the skills taught in this class would perhaps relieve SAR from a lot of calls or at least put a couple more skilled people in the position to assist SAR if needed.

I agree, but if thats the context of the course then leave it that way. One way or the other Not this half n' half stuff Im seeing. I have no issue with Rich but given my limited observations of the course, I think it needs some reality based refinement.

Im not saying that SAR should be the only one who should do this stuff. It's obvious to even fools that to be able to affect self rescue is your best shot at a positive outcome.:crazycobasa:

[Bootboy]

Not to mention that Rich has spent countless hours co-training with other organizations before he designs his courses. Bootboy's critique doesn't hold much water in that issue.

Yeah, don't listen to a word I say. I've only worked as a firefighter for a department that has the only heavy rescue in the county, been an active member of my county SAR for 5 years, participated in several high angle rescues every summer, and been a full time ski patroller for 5 seasons in which we not only have several real life incidents every season, but also log 50+ hours of rescue training every season taught by guys from GTNP and the Seattle fire department who were under the tutelage of guys like Reed Thorn and so on..., participated in hoist and long line rescues from a helicopter, and happen to be personal friends with climbing rangers from GTNP.

clearly, I'm speaking out of my ass.

[Bootboy]

Is it better to get people out of a canyon using what you know and have with you or split the group and call SAR???

Yeah, both. If you have the skills, get the show on the road.

Tom :moses:

I completely agree. But there is no sense in taking unnecessary risk in training.

[restrac2000]

Yeah, don't listen to a word I say. I've only worked as a firefighter for a department that has the only heavy rescue in the county, been an active member of my county SAR for 5 years, participated in several high angle rescues every summer, and been a full time ski patroller for 5 seasons in which we log 50+ hours of rescue training every season taught by guys from GTNP and the Seattle fire department who were under the tutelage of guys like Reed Thorn and so on..., participated in hoist and long line rescues from a helicopter, and happen to be personal friends with climbing rangers from GTNP.

clearly, I'm speaking out of my ass.

I am not sure where I critiqued your experience or knowledge Mr BootBoy? I did listen to your words and found several unfounded

Rich might do well to take a rescue course of his own from someone like Reed Thorn.


I did analyze your statement about Rich's training and knowledge base as flawed. He is one the most well-trained canyoneers in the US I know and takes continuing education seriously. I think if you check Rich's credentials you will find him very well-rounded and likely very familiar with the names you throw around so easily (or the one "Reed Thorne" like he is the only worthy one who teaches at Ropes that Rescue).

PS....I could care less about your credentials.....or your ranger buddies

[Taylor]

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Bootboy]

Oooo. Did I hurt your feelings?

I spat my credentials on your comment about my words holding little water.

Stirrin' this pot...

[restrac2000]

Nope, you must not know me well if you think I offend easily from internet retorts.

Best of luck with further pursuits, it is beyond obvious that you do not care to engage the ideas I presented. Feel free to flame but when you get the chance a simple google search will reveal Carlson's trainings. I have no other stake in this thread nor much desire to swallow the irony of voluntarily defending Rich to an internet troll (see: "stirrin' this pot" page 1)

Phillip

[Bootboy]

I don't need to look at his credentials. They are worthless if someone teaches that tying main line and belay line in the same knot is ok, or that a grigri is an acceptable rescue load tool, and so on... Nough said

[restrac2000]

That seems to be a specific complaint and very different than your original statement (i.e. about third party training which often comes with credentials)

[Iceaxe]

I have no issue with Rich but given my limited observations of the course, I think it needs some reality based refinement.

Using the words Rich and reality in the same sentence.... LOL...

Now that is funny....

[Bootboy]

Pff...

[BW123]

__

[ghawk]

Could you also post your canyoneering resume?

BW

:haha: :popcorn:

[Summit2Sea]

:facepalm1:

I'll let others speak to this but this course sounded like it was designed for a different purpose. As I heard it, the tripod was brought out the last day to give the participants some exposure to heavy rescue. The course was more of a rapid response, in-canyon techniques....but again, I wasn't there. Also, how many SAR guys in the Swell, North Wash, Robbers Roost, Lake Powell area know this stuff? I'll stick my neck out a bit but my understanding is that there are precious few. Do you have a problem with Rich or with the content of the training?

This could be a good place to start this discussion....

Is it better to get people out of a canyon using what you know and have with you or split the group and call SAR???

I'll start. It seems if you can safely get the victim out using what you have, including the totum, I would think it the best of all worlds to not call SAR. It seems that learning the skills taught in this class would perhaps relieve SAR from a lot of calls or at least put a couple more skilled people in the position to assist SAR if needed.

X2 :2thumbs:

[Deathcricket]

Could you also post your canyoneering resume?

BW

54985

[kugath]

My apologies...I should have included additional information with the photos. My goal in posting photos was to show some of the cool things fellow canyoneers are out doing. When I teach avalanche safety courses we often share the fact that many backcountry skiers/boarders/snow machiners aren't willing to spend the time learning rescue skills as they'd rather be out pursuing their activity...so they possess a high degree of skills to pursue their activity though this sometimes plays against them placing them in even deeper doo doo...with no skills to self-rescue. Hats off to all the canyoneers seeking to develop rescue training skills so that they might one day be in a better position to help themselves or someone else out.

Please be careful in critiquing what you see in the photos...different scenarios were presented which required response. The use of the rescue tripod was largely to provide a simple intro to the tool...most canyoneers won't be packing the device. I appreciated the practice with this tool...certainly demonstrated the large amount of friction rope incurs traveling over an edge if you don't have it. Bringing a patient up and over an edge is also much simpler with the tripod. Rich was very clear in describing the continuum of rescue efforts in a canyon...the activities we engaged in were not necessarily designed to make us expert in NFPA technique...though my interest is now piqued in this type of training...a good outcome I believe.

As for Rich's experience others have nicely described his qualifications. I seem to remember Rich sharing that he has trained with Reed and the "Ropes that Rescue" crew.

My bottom line: No one appreciates the skills and training of individuals more than those on the receiving end...kudos to the men and women, you as well Bootboy, willing to sacrifice their time and monies to help out people in need. Some do the training as part of a job...others volunteer...either way I'm grateful for your efforts. I hope all canyoneers will seek additional training...with these skills we may be able to provide rapid lifesaving response or simply avoid having to call up Search and Rescue and putting their lives at risk. Rich does a great job...having taken his course I feel I can recommend it... but there are certainly other fine organizations out there providing quality training.

Best wishes!

sk

[Scott Card]

My apologies...I should have included additional information with the photos. My goal in posting photos was to show some of the cool things fellow canyoneers are out doing. When I teach avalanche safety courses we often share the fact that many backcountry skiers/boarders/snow machiners aren't willing to spend the time learning rescue skills as they'd rather be out pursuing their activity...so they possess a high degree of skills to pursue their activity though this sometimes plays against them placing them in even deeper doo doo...with no skills to self-rescue. Hats off to all the canyoneers seeking to develop rescue training skills so that they might one day be in a better position to help themselves or someone else out.

Please be careful in critiquing what you see in the photos...different scenarios were presented which required response. The use of the rescue tripod was largely to provide a simple intro to the tool...most canyoneers won't be packing the device. I appreciated the practice with this tool...certainly demonstrated the large amount of friction rope incurs traveling over an edge if you don't have it. Bringing a patient up and over an edge is also much simpler with the tripod. Rich was very clear in describing the continuum of rescue efforts in a canyon...the activities we engaged in were not necessarily designed to make us expert in NFPA technique...though my interest is now piqued in this type of training...a good outcome I believe.

As for Rich's experience others have nicely described his qualifications. I seem to remember Rich sharing that he has trained with Reed and the "Ropes that Rescue" crew.

My bottom line: No one appreciates the skills and training of individuals more than those on the receiving end...kudos to the men and women, you as well Bootboy, willing to sacrifice their time and monies to help out people in need. Some do the training as part of a job...others volunteer...either way I'm grateful for your efforts. I hope all canyoneers will seek additional training...with these skills we may be able to provide rapid lifesaving response or simply avoid having to call up Search and Rescue and putting their lives at risk. Rich does a great job...having taken his course I feel I can recommend it... but there are certainly other fine organizations out there providing quality training.

Best wishes!

sk

Well stated. :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

I know BootBoy has a lot to offer the canyoneering community. Unfortunately his style so far has been kinda feisty... reminds me of a certain Emporial dude... which hasn't helped people listen to what he has to say.

Free advice - worth every penny -

BootBoy - lighten up. People will be more able to listen to what you have to offer, once they get to know you. Do some canyons, post some trip reports, develop some cred.

Everyone Else - let's cut him some slack. yeah, he elbows his way into the key like Karl Malone, but it looks like he has considerable background in arbor science and SAR, so he probably has some good idea.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Everyone Else - let's cut him some slack. yeah, he elbows his way into the key like Karl Malone, but it looks like he has considerable background in arbor science and SAR, so he probably has some good idea.

Yeah, can't wait for the new rope and pack lines to come out...

Ha ha!

Edit to add: I've climbed and skied with GTNP rangers too. Just wanted folks to know.

Oh, and I watched a huge rescue off the Grand a couple years ago.

[ratagonia]

Edit to add: I've climbed and skied with GTNP rangers too. Just wanted folks to know.

Oh, and I watched a huge rescue off the Grand a couple years ago.

U


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man!