Imlay

[oldno7]

We did this canyon Friday, started at the West rim trailhead at 5:00am, hit the shuttle at 6:30pm.
Group of 5, 3 were enjoying their first experience with potholes. Again--apology for picture quality,
I have a long way to go in figuring out pictures with P&S in darkish areas.
Dammit if they didn't load in reverse again--view from the bottom up.:facepalm1:

[nat]

Nice photos! Kinda cool, seeing the canyon in reverse.

[Emily]

Great pictures! Seems like you guys made good time. We're doing this canyon for the first time this Friday. What's the water level? Keepers? We're trying to be prepared for whatever conditions we may find. We wore drysuits down Heaps last year and are trying to decide between wet or dry for Imlay... You hiked up from the bottom? Sorry - lots of questions. Just excited!

Emily

[oldno7]

Great pictures! Seems like you guys made good time. We're doing this canyon for the first time this Friday. What's the water level? Keepers? We're trying to be prepared for whatever conditions we may find. We wore drysuits down Heaps last year and are trying to decide between wet or dry for Imlay... You hiked up from the bottom? Sorry - lots of questions. Just excited!

Emily

Hi Emily
Welcome to bogley.....
Glad your here. First and foremost--EVERYTHING Tom says/said about me isn't true:lol8:

O.K.--We came from the top, camped at Lava point, up at 4:00 Biscuits & Gravy, coffee, pedicure and we were off hiking by 5:00(o.k.-I ate a bar, Andy cooked instant coffee and then we hiked)

I'm a wetsuit guy, I like everything about them other than packin' em out wet. Drysuits are wonderful if they don't leak and wearers of such have taken to covering their drysuits with an overall type thingamajig...I'll stick with my holy wetsuit(it was blessed by Ram--no actually it has slowly accumulated holes from several canyons but it still works, something a holy drysuit can't say!!!) I prefer a 3/2 and remain comfortable, other go heavier based on tolerance(skinny folks usually lack tolerance)judgement call based on previous experience for sure..
Wetsuits have tha ability to "grip" rock, something drysuits lack.(not many beached whales from the drysuit crowd). They also offer great knee and elbow protection, for downclimbing and such.(wetsuits)
Most everything was in the early stages of "keeper" mode, I can only think of 1 or 2 places we could beach whale out of. All keepers could be defeated with potshots and/or partner assists. This obviously becomes more difficult as water levels go down, requiring a bit more effort.
We did have to import sand from up canyon a couple times, be cognizant of this, do not pull down your ropes until whoever is out front, "confirms" that the next obstacle can be defeated.
The anchors are getting real bad, many need to be replaced as does some of the webbing. We replaced some webbing and used some that is soon in need, replace 1 or 2 and it will help the community.(would be a 16 hour work project to bring all the anchors up to snuff)
This was my first time coming in from the top and I can assure you--I will never see the shadows of the "sneak" route again!!!
Hope you have a great trip, looking forward to your report.:2thumbs:


One more thing( you might not need to hear this but others may) Keep your people and ropes moving forward!!!!
Every member should be competent at setting up rappels after evaluating anchors. Stacking people up at rappels or potholes causes folks to shake.

[oldno7]

Heres one example of an anchor needing a little bit of love..

We practiced our best "marginal" anchor techniques on a few of these.

If I go through again this Summer, I'll pack a bolt kit.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Loved the photos and TR--thanks #7. :nod:

BTW--have those hangers in the above photo been cut through?

[spinesnaper]

Loved the photos and TR--thanks #7. :nod:

BTW--have those hangers in the above photo been cut through?

As I recall from past threads, this was thought to be due to debris flow damage during 2011. The long memory of this group will correct the recollection. It is interesting how close these bolt have been placed. I would think a crescent wrench and a new hanger plate would get the job done here, but I am no bolt expert.

Ken

[ratagonia]

As I recall from past threads, this was thought to be due to debris flow damage during 2011. The long memory of this group will correct the recollection. It is interesting how close these bolt have been placed. I would think a crescent wrench and a new hanger plate would get the job done here, but I am no bolt expert.

Ken

Aluminum hangers - seems like the steel rapid link was dragged through the aluminum hanger by a log in the flood.

Nothing wrong with the closeness of the bolts - what's your point?

Jonathan tried to reuse the bolts by replacing the hangers, but was unable to get it to work, so he placed one, new, 1/2" bolt, the one with the chain.

Yeah, it is kinda a mess, of which I am partly responsible, but it is much, MUCH better than the p.o.s. that it replaced.

Tom

[spinesnaper]

Aluminum hangers - seems like the steel rapid link was dragged through the aluminum hanger by a log in the flood.

Nothing wrong with the closeness of the bolts - what's your point?

Jonathan tried to reuse the bolts by replacing the hangers, but was unable to get it to work, so he placed one, new, 1/2" bolt, the one with the chain.

Yeah, it is kinda a mess, of which I am partly responsible, but it is much, MUCH better than the p.o.s. that it replaced.

Tom

Tom

Did not mean to disparage your craftsmanship. Keep up the good works. I know it is a pain dragging the bolting hardware into these remote spots.

Ken

[ratagonia]

Tom

Did not mean to disparage your craftsmanship. Keep up the good works. I know it is a pain dragging the bolting hardware into these remote spots.

Ken

But you bring up a good point -

In theory, bolts should be twice as far apart as they are long. At least, bolts that are being used. However, bolts that are not being used don't count for much in this theory.

And as always: In theory, there is not much difference between theory and practice. In practice, there often is.

The pain is actually taking the extra half hour to drill and bolt at this point, when most people in the party are cold, wet, tired and grumpy, and the Narrows can be heard just ahead. A nice, warm, June Imlay might be a good time for fixing some anchors in there - next week?

Tom

[luzyfuerza]

Tom, I've got a group together doing an Imlay descent on June 15. We've got a spot open. Are you interested?

[ratagonia]

Tom, I've got a group together doing an Imlay descent on June 15. We've got a spot open. Are you interested?

Thanks. I'll be in Idaho, bouncing off rocks on the Selway. Hopefully with the smooth side down.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Aluminum hangers - seems like the steel rapid link was dragged through the aluminum hanger by a log in the flood.

Nothing wrong with the closeness of the bolts - what's your point?

Jonathan tried to reuse the bolts by replacing the hangers, but was unable to get it to work, so he placed one, new, 1/2" bolt, the one with the chain.

Wow...that's crazy how those aluminum hangers sheared out.

Good lookin' chain anchor.... I can't tell from the photo...is there another hanger that the ring is attached to at the bottom? Any chance for another photo of this?

Little bit of JB weld patch on those other holes...good to go.

So, Tom, the 1/2" stainless Powerbolts are the ticket?

Glue-ins are sweet...but...takes time and effort. Hmmm....

[ratagonia]

Wow...that's crazy how those aluminum hangers sheared out.

Good lookin' chain anchor.... I can't tell from the photo...is there another hanger that the ring is attached to at the bottom? Any chance for another photo of this?

Little bit of JB weld patch on those other holes...good to go.

So, Tom, the 1/2" stainless Powerbolts are the ticket?

Glue-ins are sweet...but...takes time and effort. Hmmm....

JZ drilled a hole for the other bolt, then dropped it... oops!

I'm goin' in on Monday, will fill it with fine American steel. Try to get the other bolts out (hex wrench and cheater bar). Try to clean up some holes (epoxy putty).

Yes, the 1/2" Powerbolts using a two-step drilling seem to work very well. I have had one 'fail', in Pine Creek, but that seems to be the only one I have seen go bad.

I am wary of the chain. In flow, it will rock back and forth and chew up the rock. I plan on taking that out, replacing the hanger with a regular hanger.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Yes, the 1/2" Powerbolts using a two-step drilling seem to work very well. I have had one 'fail', in Pine Creek, but that seems to be the only one I have seen go bad.

I am wary of the chain. In flow, it will rock back and forth and chew up the rock. I plan on taking that out, replacing the hanger with a regular hanger.

Stainless or plated bolt?

If you tied down that chain by linking it to the other bolt, that'd prevent movement. A sling tied into a powerpoint with a ring will still swing a bit. That chain rig is sweet. Be a shame to not utilize it as part of the anchor. Bomber. And, won't need to be chopped out and replaced (until a flood with debris hits it perhaps...).

Thanks for the strong work!

How are the hook holes holding up? Makes me wonder if a bit of adhesive on the hook side will help them keep from wearing out season to season. I also wonder if a low profile bolt (even a glue in stud that could be hooked with a rivet hanger or webbing loop) might be a better long term fix than the drilled hole thing?

[ratagonia]

Stainless or plated bolt?

If you tied down that chain by linking it to the other bolt, that'd prevent movement. A sling tied into a powerpoint with a ring will still swing a bit. That chain rig is sweet. Be a shame to not utilize it as part of the anchor. Bomber. And, won't need to be chopped out and replaced (until a flood with debris hits it perhaps...).

Thanks for the strong work!

How are the hook holes holding up? Makes me wonder if a bit of adhesive on the hook side will help them keep from wearing out season to season. I also wonder if a low profile bolt (even a glue in stud that could be hooked with a rivet hanger or webbing loop) might be a better long term fix than the drilled hole thing?

Admittedly, the chains that I installed in Behunin (that made such a mess) were much larger and heavier, and not held tight. Still, making the chain tighter would just increase the frequency of the vibration in flow. So, no, I don't think chains work in canyons, in sandstone, unless very well isolated from the flow. This location is not isolated from the flow.

I have not moved to stainless. Even in 'wet' canyons, the galvanized seem to hold up well. A peculiarity of porous sandstone, I think. In these canyons, when lower-quality-steel bolts rust, they tend to rust and bond into the rock, becoming stronger. Certainly there are places where they rust-and-corrode out - the bolts this penultimate rappel in Imlay used to be anchored off of, on the floor (small studs, 80's vintage, smc hangers) were corroded down pretty far, as are the same bolts at the last rap, now used as safety line anchorage (might be good to put a good one in there, too).

Hook holes are a lot less of an issue than in the past. Imlay has a lot of sand blown in after the fire up above 5(?) years ago, so it has become a LOT easier, and hooks are rarely needed. When they are, it is usually with not much force (ie, not full body weight. I am surprised that they are generally holding up well, but then again, the sandstone at the exits to those potholes is well-infiltrated with bonding minerals, so it is not so soft. Kelsey's G-pick hacks have rounded out some but are still painfully obvious.

Tom :moses:

[hank moon]

I am wary of the chain. In flow, it will rock back and forth and chew up the rock. I plan on taking that out, replacing the hanger with a regular hanger.

maybe it's the right length for the last anchor in Pine Creek?

[Brian in SLC]

So, no, I don't think chains work in canyons, in sandstone, unless very well isolated from the flow. This location is not isolated from the flow.

Tough nut to crack, perhaps. I'd think that webbing would be an issue too, but, maybe not so bad and if it does rub a bit, then, probably will wear out before the rock does.

A limited movement anchor, bomber, long term, that's field maintainable. Hmmm... Euro arrangements come to mind. Glue in with a single ring/rapide and backed up with another that doesn't see load. Folks hate them single rings, though, and you'd have a webbing mess as folks tie stuff together and equalize.

In flow is tough. At least somewhat outside the flow has a chance of some longer term survival.