Ideal Rope Design

[Bootboy]

If you were given the chance to have a rope company produce the canyon rope of your dreams, what qualities and materials would you like to see in a rope? Of the existing materials on the market, what would you use and why?
What qualities or combination of materials do you feel are missing from the market? I personally cannot think of anyone that makes the ideal rope for anything close to less than $1.50/ft

I've contacted several braiding companies and one in particular about producing a canyon specific rope. Some friends and I working up several test concepts for potential R&D production. This will no doubt take a while to come to fruition and be ready for the market but, you've got to start somewhere. If I get an R&D batch produced, I would be willing to send out some lengths to members of this site for feedback.

Tom will no doubt chime in, and tho I think he makes a fine rope (canyon fire, very good for the price point) I feel that there is a niche to fill in his line up. I don't mean to cut into anyone's market share, but in the short years that I've been doing this, and from my background in rope work (tree, SAR, fire & rescue, and recreation) I don't feel like anyone offers all the desired qualities in one package, at least for a competitive price.

Give me your feedback and we'll see if we can't get this off the ground. Power to the people!

Boots.

[Renatomic808]

something with a technora sheath.. thin as possible.

[Bootboy]

As of right now, the basic concept Im thinking is this: An inner core of spectra or dyneema within a braided core of polypropylene with a sheath of single end or double end carrier technora at high braiding tension. Adding up to about 8.5 mm. The eventual goal being to offer it at less than $1.20/ft.

[CarpeyBiggs]

pretty much my ideal rope here for long backcountry trips in the GC, at around 1.50 a foot.
http://www.backcountry.com/blue-water-canyon-pro-dual-sheath-rope-8mm?CMP_SKU=BWR0003&MER=0406&CMP_ID=GAN_GPLA&003=8219600&010=BWR0003&mr:trackingCode=86B7122A-2705-E011-887D-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA&origin=pla&mr:adType=pla

Tom will probably chime in. He developed some ropes that had technora sheaths awhile back.

[Redpb]

It's simple but, I like the change of pattern/color in the middle of my rope.

[Bootboy]

It's simple but, I like the change of pattern/color in the middle of my rope.

That's hard to do with technora.

Indeed the blue water ropes are nice but the price point is a little on the high side. The goal here is to develop a rope with similar construction and qualities for around $1.20/ft.

It is well within reason, at least from one company I've been in contact with, to produce a 100% technora sheath rope with a polyester core and a MBS of ~6000lb for $1.00/ft. Simpler design at a killer price.

[ratagonia]

That's hard to do with technora.

Indeed the blue water ropes are nice but the price point is a little on the high side. The goal here is to develop a rope with similar construction and qualities for around $1.20/ft.

It is well within reason, at least from one company I've been in contact with, to produce a 100% technora sheath rope with a polyester core and a MBS of ~6000lb for $1.00/ft. Simpler design at a killer price.

What's your business model, BootBoy? This is a big factor in the final cost. Are you setting up a business or a charity?

My rope factory made up some 1/2 technora sheath ropes with a polyester core, but the retail price would have been higher than Bluewater's Canyon Pro, which was a better rope. Essentially, Bluewater sells those ropes at a modest discount... ie, they sell them for less than I would. It helps that they are the actual manufacturer - my system has one more hand in the way, mine.

If I could get the rope for 1$ per foot, that does not mean that I would sell it for 1$ per foot. I would sell it for somewhat more to the retailers, who would sell it for somewhat more to the retail customer.

Tom

[oldno7]

Why you capitalist....

I hope you at least have plans to share your wealth:lol8:

[Brian in SLC]

What's your business model, BootBoy? This is a big factor in the final cost. Are you setting up a business or a charity?

Hilarious. Was wondering how you were going to address this.

Next he'll be making sand molds and carabiners out of beer cans collected on the side of the road...and selling at cost...ha ha.

Gotta be a bit close to home...eh Tom?

Stay classy, San Diego...!

[ratagonia]

Why you capitalist....

I hope you at least have plans to share your wealth:lol8:

I shared a bunch of that wealth with my dentist in Kanab today...

T

[oldno7]

I shared a bunch of that wealth with my dentist in Kanab today...

T

Ahhhh-so your going the ole trickle down route:2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Ahhhh-so your going the ole trickle down route:2thumbs:

Yes. I just opened a beer, and it trickled down all over my shirt.

Painkillers wearing off, but the lips are still 100% numb, so the pain killer booster will have to wait...

hmmm, beer through a straw? Might be worth a try.

T

[Bootboy]

I dont exactly need a business model if im not going into business. It wouldn't be my product to sell. The angle I'm trying to work is to give one of these companies the information and feedback to develop and produce a product that would fill a niche in the market. One of the more interested braiders seems to be in a reasonable position in their existing production to produce just such a rope at a very reasonable price. I'm not planning to retail any this stuff myself. I don't need to rebrand it and mark it up to feel good about it.

I thought I was a capitalist. Now I'm not sure...

Wocka wocka...

[spinesnaper]

I dont exactly need a business model if im not going into business. It wouldn't be my product to sell. The angle I'm trying to work is to give one of these companies the information and feedback to develop and produce a product that would fill a niche in the market. One of the more interested braiders seems to be in a reasonable position in their existing production to produce just such a rope at a very reasonable price. I'm not planning to retail any this stuff myself. I don't need to rebrand it and mark it up to feel good about it.

I thought I was a capitalist. Now I'm not sure...

American, it's a great place. Where else can you start your own canyoneering rope company? China? I don't think so. Iran-no chance.:nono:

Ken

[ratagonia]

I dont exactly need a business model if im not going into business. It wouldn't be my product to sell. The angle I'm trying to work is to give one of these companies the information and feedback to develop and produce a product that would fill a niche in the market. One of the more interested braiders seems to be in a reasonable position in their existing production to produce just such a rope at a very reasonable price. I'm not planning to retail any this stuff myself. I don't need to rebrand it and mark it up to feel good about it.

I thought I was a capitalist. Now I'm not sure...

So, a thought exercise? Perhaps more along the lines of market research? Or a stimulation of thought and discussion?

I thought I sent those guys an email, saying I could be interested, but I never heard back from them. Perhaps you have had more luck and could let them know I am interested in working with them.

When you start talking about 'price', and are very specific about it, then I start thinking about context. Because talking about price without talking about context is kinda pointless. Didn't mean to rain our your parade...

But most issues are a cost / benefit kinda thing. The value of money varies widely from person to person, and from context to context. In the Grand Canyon, Canyon Pro is the way to go because every ounce counts. When doing Pine Creek, weight is not all that important, and a less-fancy rope is probably a better choice. If leading Boy Scouts, you probably should not use Canyon Fire, but the Canyonero might be a good choice. etc. etc.

Tom

[Bootboy]

I talk about price in the context of a goal. I haven't talked the specifics of price with any of my contacts. If it can't be done, then we'll jump ship. You probably emailed a different company. I'll keep their names private for now. I just got an email from one of them today, wanting to know more specifically what it is I'm after. I suspect that if it's too much of a stretch they'll likely decline. I need to work on selling them on the viability of such a product. It's this convincing that will be the real effort.

[Renatomic808]

100% Technora Sheath, and a 100% Technora core.. bring it down to 7mm or less.. and let's rock it!

[tcott]

100% Technora Sheath, and a 100% Technora core.. bring it down to 7mm or less.. and let's rock it!
Done :cool2:
http://sterlingrope.com/product/519731/F060PXT/_/6mm_XTec

[Bo_Beck]

It seems that a lot of thought has gone into the ideal immediate use cord for canyoneering. Wonder what fiber will arrive to deem the present fibers obsolete? Technora as well as Kevlar have some issues that may be exposed in the future that make them less than ideal? We know the low melting point of Dyneema (aka Spectra) may be an issue in some applications? How about flex cycles of the fibers? Kevlar not so good. Technora right on it's heels.
Kevlar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar), an aramid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramid) fiber, has become the predominant fiber for racing sails, since it was introduced by DuPont in 1971. It is stronger, has a higher strength to weight ratio than steel, and has a modulus thatis five times greater than PET, and about twice as high as PEN. There are two popular types of Kevlar: Type 29 and Type 49, the latter having a 50% higher initial modulus than Type 29 but a lower flex loss. DuPont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuPont) has developed higher modulus Types129, 149 and 159, but these have seen little use in sails, since generally as the modulus increases the flex strength decreases. DuPont has recently introduced Kevlar Edge, a fiber developed specifically for sails with 25%higher flex strength and a higher modulus than Kevlar 49. Kevlar, along with other aramid fibers, have poor UV resistance (Kevlar loses strength roughly twice as quickly in sunlight as PET) and rapid loss of strength with flexing, folding and flogging. Minimal flogging and careful handling can greatly extendthe life of a Kevlar sail.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sailcloth&action=edit&section=7)]Technora

[FONT=&amp][COLOR=#0B0080]Technora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technora) is an aramid, which is produced in Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) by Teijin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teijin),has a slightly lower modulus strength than Kevlar 29 but a slightly higher resistance to flex fatigue. The fiber

[dougr]

It is well within reason, at least from one company I've been in contact with, to produce a 100% technora sheath rope with a polyester core and a MBS of ~6000lb for $1.00/ft. Simpler design at a killer price.

Now that's one I'd seriously like. I have technora/nylon and technora/polypro now as my mains, my polyester/polyester as my other. But technora/polyester would be tough as snot, hydrophobic, and reasonably priced.

[ratagonia]

100% Technora Sheath, and a 100% Technora core.. bring it down to 7mm or less.. and let's rock it!

Technora core is fine, if you are only going to rappel on it once.

T

[ratagonia]

It seems that a lot of thought has gone into the ideal immediate use cord for canyoneering. Wonder what fiber will arrive to deem the present fibers obsolete? Technora as well as Kevlar have some issues that may be exposed in the future that make them less than ideal? We know the low melting point of Dyneema (aka Spectra) may be an issue in some applications? How about flex cycles of the fibers? Kevlar not so good. Technora right on it's heels.
Kevlar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar), an aramid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramid) fiber, has become the predominant fiber for racing sails, since it was introduced by DuPont in 1971. It is stronger, has a higher strength to weight ratio than steel, and has a modulus thatis five times greater than PET, and about twice as high as PEN. There are two popular types of Kevlar: Type 29 and Type 49, the latter having a 50% higher initial modulus than Type 29 but a lower flex loss. DuPont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuPont) has developed higher modulus Types129, 149 and 159, but these have seen little use in sails, since generally as the modulus increases the flex strength decreases. DuPont has recently introduced Kevlar Edge, a fiber developed specifically for sails with 25%higher flex strength and a higher modulus than Kevlar 49. Kevlar, along with other aramid fibers, have poor UV resistance (Kevlar loses strength roughly twice as quickly in sunlight as PET) and rapid loss of strength with flexing, folding and flogging. Minimal flogging and careful handling can greatly extendthe life of a Kevlar sail.
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sailcloth&action=edit&section=7)]Technora

Technora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technora) is an aramid, which is produced in Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) by Teijin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teijin),has a slightly lower modulus strength than Kevlar 29 but a slightly higher resistance to flex fatigue. The fiber’s lower UV resistance is enhanced by dying the naturally gold fiber black. Technora is most often used as bias support (X-ply) in laminate

FWIW

for those following along at home, PET is Polyester and PEN is Nylon.

Several companies make 100% Technora ropes for fire-fighter escape ropes, but they can only be used once. The flexing of passing through a rappel device breaks up the Technora fibers and the rope quickly loses strength (with flexing). So while it is strong to begin with, it loses strength quickly and unpredictably. So, no, you would not want a Technora/Technora rope.

Tom

[Bootboy]

for those following along at home, PET is Polyester and PEN is Nylon.

The make 100% Technora ropes for fire-fighter escape ropes, but they can only be used once. The flexing of passing through a rappel device breaks up the Technora fibers and the rope quickly loses strength (with flexing). So while it is strong to begin with, it loses strength quickly and unpredictably. So, no, you would not want a Technora/Technora rope.

Tom

Agreed.
There really is no point to a 100% technora rope. There are fibers that are lighter and stronger (UHMWPE, ie: spectra and dyneema) without the weaknesses of aramid fibers.

Aramid fibers owe their abrasion resistant qualities to their molecular structure, which for those unfamiliar with chemistry, can almost be described as crystalline for lack of a better word.

The ideal rope core would be UHMWPE. near zero stretch, light weight, excellent fatigue life, and ultra high strength. The big deterrent being price though.

Tom, do you have any data on the effects of water on aramid fibers? I seam to recall seeing something once upon a time about water actually increasing the fatigue life of aramid fibers by acting as a lubricant. Not sure though, so don't quote me in that.

[ratagonia]

Agreed.
There really is no point to a 100% technora rope. There are fibers that are lighter and stronger (UHMWPE, ie: spectra and dyneema) without the weaknesses of aramid fibers.

Aramid fibers owe their abrasion resistant qualities to their molecular structure, which for those unfamiliar with chemistry, can almost be described as crystalline for lack of a better word.

The ideal rope core would be UHMWPE. near zero stretch, light weight, excellent fatigue life, and ultra high strength. The big deterrent being price though.

Tom, do you have any data on the effects of water on aramid fibers? I seam to recall seeing something once upon a time about water actually increasing the fatigue life of aramid fibers by acting as a lubricant. Not sure though, so don't quote me in that.

Hadn't heard that, but I could see how it might be true.

My ideal rope, cost not an issue?

BW Canyon Pro. Regular Sheath. Polyester sheath, dyneema core.

The ONLY issue I have with it is that it is not my design. It holds up incredibly well, and is lighter than the dual sheath version.

It is not clear that Technora is "abrasion resistant". It is "cut resistant", for those of you rappelling out of broken-glass windows this is a big benefit. I always thought the "cut resistance" was kind of a false god, as we don't have much problem with cutting on sharp steel edges - we have with abrading across hard chunks of rock, which is a different mechanism that Technora is not particularly resistant to.

Just saying, a lot of what people "think" about materials in ropes is due to marketing, and is not necessarily true in the field. Also why I think Polyester/Polyester ropes are really the main rope to use for canyoneering. Inexpensive, works well. Not fancy. You CAN pay for fancy fibers that cost twice as much, and perform 10% better, if you want. It's good for the economy.

Tom

[Bootboy]

I have a 120' test piece in the mail. It's basically a version of an existing rope that is braided with more tension in the sheath. 8mm technora sheath and parallel polyester core. One unique design aspect of this rope is that the single carrier strands have a slight twist to them so that on the outside of the rope, the fibers actually run parallel to the rope. Similar to Samson's parallay concept. Now I just need to go south for a few days a flog it.

I agree Tom, that it is hard to beat the utility and economy of polyester. Plus the fact that it has so few drawbacks.

[ghawk]

Whatever guys, I want some glow rope! :crazy:
http://www.pelicanrope.com/glowropes.html (http://www.pelicanrope.com/glowropes.html)
:popcorn:
You can also get glow webbing... think how much better you could see anchors at night. :haha:

[Bootboy]

I'm in contact with a second manufacturer about having another custom application produced. Im optimistic about this as well. If I get a spool of this, I'll have to farm some out for testing. Anyone who is interested in receiving a length for R&D, perhaps for a nominal charge, send me a PM.

Boots.

[Bootboy]

My 120' test piece got here today. Looks and feels good. I'm gonna head out to the crag this week and rap on it a few time to break it in a little. Trying to get back to Zion by the end of the month for a more thorough test.