Do you use a safety backup?

[jeremy1701]

Hello,
In Mountaineering, The Freedom of the Hills, there is a section in Chapter 11 - Rappelling entitled, Safety Backups (p. 204). It talks about self-belaying with an autoblock or prusik attached to the leg loop of your harness. I did a quick search here and see that there's a few topics on autoblocks, but I thought I'd start another as most of the results seem to be a little older.

Do you use an autoblock or prusik as a safety backup? What are the pros and cons of using a safety backup? As a noob, I seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to lifting up my hand if I slip, which is of course the exact opposite of what I should be doing. Given this, it seems maybe I should be using an autoblock? The Mountaineering book claims the autoblock is better than the prusik. If you use a safety backup, which method do you prefer?

Regards

[Bootboy]

If I do, its only on long free rappels and I use a VT Prusik autoblock. The VT is easy to tie and can be released more easily when loaded than most other knots. I have a BD bod harness and the leg loops don't lend themselves to the attachment of autoblocks, so I just rig it off my belay loop.

Pro: extra degree of safety

Con: more stuff to deal with and steps to screw up. Takes an extra hand to tend the knot while descending, hence, I only use it occasionally and only on free raps.

[Deathcricket]

No. If the person is noobish or uncomfortable a simple bottom belay is easy. I've also noted they seem to hinder where you can put your brake hand, never far from your body, and prevent people from learning proper rap techniques. So I see it as a crutch.

[dustinsc]

I agree with Deathcricket. You should seriously evaluate the added value of anything that makes the process more complicated, because the added complexity can become a danger in itself if it distracts you from the basics. I just went canyoneering with some "professional" guides in Mexico, and while I saw the value of some of the techniques they used for setting up anchors, I thought most of what they did was unnecessarily complicated and easy to mess up.

Now, having said that, I see the value of the autoblock or similar technique for certain types of rappels. But if the rap is really that sketchy, it might be worth setting up a top belay.

Take all that with a grain of salt though, because I don't have much experience setting up backups.

[Brian in SLC]

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

[Kryzzle]

I'm from Europe, where we're being taught to always use a prusik for self-belay. I have tried without, which felt too unsafe and fast for me, tried the autoblock, which does not block as reliabe as the prusik. I would never ever rappel without a prusik self-belay.
You may want to search the forum for rappel accidents, you'll soon notice that rappelling is unsafe without a self-belay.
There is actually one reason for not using a prusik, but an autoblock instead - this is when rappelling into a pool of water, when release from the rope should be quick and easy.

You may want to check my recent post on the TR for Diana's Throne Canyon for a picture of the setup with a Prusik belay.

[Iceaxe]

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

x2

[Brian in SLC]

You may want to check my recent post on the TR for Diana's Throne Canyon for a picture of the setup with a Prusik belay.

I think some folks have gotton away from using your method and instead extend their rappel device out from their harness. At least one fatality in Europe (a guide I seem to recall) where the person stopped to untangle the ropes, while on rappel, shifted sideways, and, the autoblock (or Prusik) came into contact with their rappel device and they lost control of the rappel and plummented off the end of the ropes.

One of my main climbing partners rarely rappels without an autoblock back up below his rappel device (which he extends from his harness). But, fairly rare for climbers, and, not common for canyoneers either. Especially in canyons with water flow, I've never seen a back up used (especially in Europe by seasoned European guides/canyoneers).

Using a Prusik to control your friction on rappel might have a diminishing return sooner or later...

[Scott Card]

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one. X3

[Bootboy]

Some lessons regarding the application of an autoblock I've had to learn the hard way, or from others. I am very discriminate in its application. I don't generally have a problem with lack of friction because I rap double strand 90% of the time. I can only think of a few instances where I've ever used one, only on long single free raps. Never once have I actually needed it.

[oldno7]

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.


X4

[Bo_Beck]

while I saw the value of some of the techniques they used for setting up anchors, I thought most of what they did was unnecessarily complicated and easy to mess up.

And quite often I've seen the end results of those that do mess up. Cold, hungry, exhausted ready to touch down and call it a day.....yep, not as rare as one might think!

[Candace66]

Roundabout answer...

I spent a lot of time this weekend (stuck at work with little to do) reading various threads about canyoneering rappelling accidents. Given that my personal experience with rappelling is strictly within the climbing world, a lot of what I read was news to me. In particular, the issue of insufficient friction to control descent speed.

Thinking back, all my raps have been on double strand: either a rope doubled through the anchor, or joined ropes. So I guess that's why I never had any problem controlling my descent with a basic BD ATC. But I gathered from those threads that descending a single strand with that device is risky to say the least. This of course led to extensive discussions of various back-up devices (autoblock, etc.).

The only time I ever had a back-up was when I was first being taught to rap (in the Colo. Mt. Club's rock climbing school!). They had us noobs on belay from the top. Was I reckless not using a back-up system after that? As noted, I definitely never had a problem with insufficient friction. But I was cognizant that if for any reason I lost control with my brake hand, I was gone.

BTW, what is a "belay from the bottom"? Is that when somebody is pulling down on the rap rope? Or some other sort of rig?

[oldno7]

BTW, what is a "belay from the bottom"? Is that when somebody is pulling down on the rap rope? Or some other sort of rig?

You are correct, it is a person at the bottom in a position of holding the rappel line(I extend my arm up towards the rappeler, rope in hand)Who, if "paying attention" can arrest a fall or release of brake hand by rappeler. AKA--Firemans Belay. A good belayer from the bottom, can also control the rappelers descente,lower the rappeler if necessary.

[Bo_Beck]

Beware on a "Firemans" conditional bottom belay! On a "catch" at the last rappel of Heaps (275') I had to jump backwards and drop at least 2 meters to arrest an out of control descent. #1 is that there will always be some slack in the line between the bottom belayer and the rappeller. #2 is that rope is not "static", meaning that your rope stretches. FWIW

[DOSS]

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.

X5

much better to learn how and use a device that allows you to set up the correct amount of friction (or know how to set up more friction if needed) so your hand doesn't get tired from poor technique etc. With the correct amount of friction you can often rappel handsfree (I love my rack for just that reason HEHE)

[chabidiah]

Nope, no back up. Know how, don't use one.
X6,
There is a guy that we go with on occasion and he tries to get me to use one since I am usually the first one down. I try to explain to him that is is unnecessary and that I feel more uncomfortable with an autoblock. Safety is important but unnecessarily complicating things is dangerous.

[Brian in SLC]

I wouldn't poo poo folks using a rappel backup...but... I think setting a perfect autoblock is pretty subtle and my bet is a fair portion of folks who employ a back up to a rappel by using a friction hitch below their rappel device might be kiddin' themselves. They need to be just about perfect to actually work.

A Prusik below the rappel device? Pretty uncommon. Let's say you're on rappel and the Prusik cinches up. Now what? Good luck gettin' moving again.

The beauty of a autoblock or a Penberthy (aka the Vald

[ActionPacker]

X7,

Only time I have used a Prusik break attached to the harness (above the belay device) was when I knew I needed to make a mid line stop. (i.e. retrieve gear, help someone stuck on another line, etc.)

[Byron]

I just hook up and go, after double checking everything, of course. I'll also never rappel without thick, leather gloves. The type used by rock climbers, fingerless. I've noticed that some have a tendency, like you said, of letting go of the brake hand or moving it in all kinds of wacky directions when they loose footing or slip. When I'm on rope, nothing in the world is more important than my right hand. Some folks just think differently, I guess.

I always belay noobs and drill "brake hand, brake hand, brake hand" into their brains. Even with that, I have a couple friends who've done many rappels but I still get nervous with them because they have trouble chewing gum and patting their stomach at the same time. I would advise a safety device for anyone that thinks they need it, or if it makes them comfortable.

[jeremy1701]

Seems the overwhelming response is no. I think what I'll do is practice the technique a few times to make sure I know how to use it should the need arise, but limit it's use outside of training. Thanks for the replies everyone!

[ratagonia]

Seems the overwhelming response is no. I think what I'll do is practice the technique a few times to make sure I know how to use it should the need arise, but limit it's use outside of training. Thanks for the replies everyone!

If you'd like to have it as a tool in your remuda (to mix metaphors), you will need to figure it out, which takes using it quite a bit. The Bluewater VT Prusik (piece of equipment) is a good tool to start with. Getting it to work in every situation requires a fair amount of work.

Like Brian, I've seen many people throw something on the rope and claim it is a backup. Only if it works. The range of things that work is pretty small - getting things to work requires understanding the system and some craftsmanship to get it to work.

Good luck.

A (n alert) bottom belay - much more reliable and easier to use.

Tom

[Taylor]

I do not use a backup device nor do I know how to attach/use one. I am a firm believer in a bottom belay, which we call a dead man. I arrested the fall of one friend when she let go of her brake on a rap in Pine Creek. I was at the top of the practice rap in AF canyon when a scout leader arrested the free fall of one of his scouts. The kid's hand got hot and he let go. That one was scary- the leader wasn't paying close enough attention, didn't notice until the kid was 10-15 off the deck. Unless told by the rapper, "I don't want one" we always hold on to the bottom of that rope.

[Kryzzle]

I take this as a "yes, there is indeed a need for a rappel backup belay". If situation allows for a bottom backup (fireman belay), that's just fine. If I'm the first on rappel, would I go without rappel belay? Definitely a no-go.

Rappelling backups as the prusik or autoblock require some (little and affordable, and it pays back) training and exercise, like is mandatory for all the skills required in canyoneering. I must admit I don't get the point why safety is not key - is it just because "I always did it like that, and nothing ever happened?"

Btw, this is taught in the courses of the Deutscher Alpenverein.

[ratagonia]

I take this as a "yes, there is indeed a need for a rappel backup belay". If situation allows for a bottom backup (fireman belay), that's just fine. If I'm the first on rappel, would I go without rappel belay? Definitely a no-go.

Rappelling backups as the prusik or autoblock require some (little and affordable, and it pays back) training and exercise, like is mandatory for all the skills required in canyoneering. I must admit I don't get the point why safety is not key - is it just because "I always did it like that, and nothing ever happened?"

Btw, this is taught in the courses of the Deutscher Alpenverein.

There are some philosophical avenues diverging here. Yes, safety is job one. But, it is not clear that consistently using a "rappel backup", past the beginner stage, improves the overall safety of the system.

I will not elucidate at length, but... the short version is:

a. rappel backups are un-necessary (I don't use them, and I am still alive)
b. rappel backups often don't work (mostly because people set them up poorly, in general)
c. rappel backups add considerable complexity to the system - this energy could be put into doing a better job of rappelling in the first place;
d. people who use rappel backups a lot tend to develop the habit of letting go with the brake hand. If or when they do not use a rappel backup, this can be a fatal mistake.

In the groups I canyon with, we do bottom belays upon request, and generally do bottom belays on long rappels (> 150 feet) when rockfall issues do not counter-indicate; and we give bottom belays to noobs.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

I still wonder, what do you do when you're, say, starting a free air rappel, and, are lowering over the edge, and your Prusik cinches up when you're just past the edge? How do you get going again?

Surprises me that the Prusik is taught as a back up. Not common at least that I've seen climbing in Europe, or, in canyons. At neither of the canyoning rendezvous I've attended did anyone, from any country, ever use a rappel back up and certainly not a Prusik. Most of this was in flow, but, some especially high angle rappels weren't.

Excellant article on the reasons to not use a Prusik, and, other musings:

http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/RappelSafetyPost.html

Some of the statements I find germain to the conversation:

My attitude is that safety is not given by any gadget, but is a property of one's attitude and experience. In "Advanced Rockcraft (p66), Royal Robbins wrote "Safety in rock climbing lies almost entirely within this 'judgement' area. Little is left to chance. Equipment is a minor factor. With the best equipment in the world the man with poor judgement is in mortal danger". True words when applied to rappelling, I feel. I also believe that reliance on Prusik (http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/KnotPages/KnotPrusik.html) or mechanical safeties often causes a person to relax their vigilance. I can't prove that, I just believe it."

"Mr. Smutek concludes, "The protection provided by a Prusik (http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/KnotPages/KnotPrusik.html) 'safety' is highly suspect and quite possibly an illusion. Couple this with the nuisance of accidental jamming and the danger of getting hung up and it appears to me that a Prusik (http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/KnotPages/KnotPrusik.html) 'safety' does nothing except needlessly complicate an already complex maneuver.""

"The girl was extremely lucky, since a Prusik (http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/KnotPages/KnotPrusik.html) safety will NOT stop a climber once he or she begins to fall freely, unless something else slows the climber to a near standstill."

"One last quote, from John Long, on page 155 of the second edition of How To RockClimb: "A sliding knot backup (commonly referred to as a Prusik (http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/KnotPages/KnotPrusik.html) backup) is rarely if ever used as a normal procedure. If you don't know how to rappel, get a belay. If you are doubtful that you can make a certain rappel, don't make that rappel. Only if you are doubtful and must rappel, and no belay is possible, should you consider the Prusik (http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/KnotPages/KnotPrusik.html) backup as anoption…. All told, the Prusik (http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Ascender/KnotPages/KnotPrusik.html) backup is a highly contested technique. The only thing for certain is that it can be highly problematic.""

YMMV.

[Brian in SLC]

Yeah..Europe...no rappel back up here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwcApv81ZeA

[Renatomic808]

I use an autoblock a lot. If the risk of the fall will kill you, then i use the autoblock. If the risk of drowning will kill you.. then I skip it. It would suck to be canyoneering/on rappel (especially solo).. a rock hits you from the top somewhere, and knocks you unconscious. You automatically fall to your death. It's a skill worth having and knowing how to use comfortably and smoothly. I say get comfortable with the autoblock and know how to use it.. and then when you've mastered it, then decide that you want to ditch it or not. May never know when it comes in handy. For me, with all the big first descents and unknowns I'm gettin into... not falling is a good thing. Just my .02

Fireman's Belay works.. but it would suck if the cliff you're on is super crumbly (our waterfalls drop giant boulders). The person on the bottom may end up with a smashed head tryin to prevent you from falling.

[dougr]

I'm probably pretty old school in this, but I use a shunt. Both on single and double line. I don't have trouble with it grabbing on my 9mm singles, it's easy as snot to unlock once loaded, it's fast, it does well no matter the rope condition (dry, wet, wet/sandy), it's foolproof in installation when I'm tired and fumbling, and it's my second rope grab for contingency situations.

I happen to use it a bit differently perhaps, not squeezing it as I'm rapping. I have my hand above it, and it slides down below. I do not find the drag a problem, but I don't rap fast anyway and have all technora ropes that don't fuzz much. This would obviate the problem of forgetting to let go of the device in a fall, which is a serious concern, instinct to grab the rope being what it is.

[ratagonia]

I'm probably pretty old school in this, but I use a shunt. Both on single and double line. I don't have trouble with it grabbing on my 9mm singles, it's easy as snot to unlock once loaded, it's fast, it does well no matter the rope condition (dry, wet, wet/sandy), it's foolproof in installation when I'm tired and fumbling, and it's my second rope grab for contingency situations.

I happen to use it a bit differently perhaps, not squeezing it as I'm rapping. I have my hand above it, and it slides down below. I do not find the drag a problem, but I don't rap fast anyway and have all technora ropes that don't fuzz much. This would obviate the problem of forgetting to let go of the device in a fall, which is a serious concern, instinct to grab the rope being what it is.

Do you use it above or below?

Still sounds like you would have to "let go" for it to actuate, but maybe not.

Technora-sheath ropes I have used tended to fuzz up nicely right away.

Tom

[hank moon]

Hi Brian

What's often missed in the back and forth is the inherent usefulness of the tool. There are times when even the most experienced of us might worry about our ability to hold on (injury, fatigue, self-rescue, etc). and a properly-set autoblock backup might be a good choice if forced to rappel under doubtful conditions (at least Long acknowledges this).

[Brian in SLC]

Absolutely agree, Hank. I carry the tools to facilitate, and, have practised the technique, to be sure.

Is Dr. Gary Storrick the man or what?

Cheers!

[Brian in SLC]

Also...wasn't there an issue or two with a Shunt as a backup? I seem to recall. Wasn't just two different diameter ropes, but, something else I can't recall. You posted up a pic of it once but I can't recall the issue.

I used a shunt to eject off the end of a rope over a pool once...fast...kind of a nifty tool, but, mine's collecting dust.

[dougr]

Do you use it above or below?
Still sounds like you would have to "let go" for it to actuate, but maybe not.
Technora-sheath ropes I have used tended to fuzz up nicely right away.

Above. I attach it to my leash a bit on the short side. In a fall, the arm extends up rope, the shunt goes only so far up itself and locks.

My most used technora rope has probably 400 raps+ on it (100 raps * 4 ppl, etc) and still has less fuzz than my poly sheaths with 1/2 the raps. That's just my experience, I don't know what to say.

But more specifically, on a fuzzy or fatter than 9mm rope, I can see the shunt possibly being not so nifty if it had to be squeezed. I wouldn't trust myself to let go in a sudden fall, it's that simple. I've got a niche application here where it works so well on 9mm technora ropes.

[hank moon]

Also...wasn't there an issue or two with a Shunt as a backup? I seem to recall. Wasn't just two different diameter ropes, but, something else I can't recall. You posted up a pic of it once but I can't recall the issue.


54710

[hank moon]

Above. I attach it to my leash a bit on the short side. In a fall, the arm extends up rope, the shunt goes only so far up itself and locks.

The standard (below rap device) setup works great and should alleviate your concern about usage on larger-diameter ropes. I cannot see any advantage to using it above the device and unlocking it can be considerably more difficult.

Note: the Shunt (in use as backup) is not meant to be activated by intentional user action. It is there in case the brake line is accidentally released during rappel. If your backup safety plan depends on you deliberately "letting go" in case of a problem, might want to re-think or at least do some (safe) backyard testing.

[ratagonia]

The standard (below rap device) setup works great and should alleviate your concern about usage on larger-diameter ropes. I cannot see any advantage to using it above the device and unlocking it can be considerably more difficult.

Note: the Shunt (in use as backup) is not meant to be activated by intentional user action. It is there in case the brake line is accidentally released during rappel. If your backup safety plan depends on you deliberately "letting go" in case of a problem, might want to re-think or at least do some (safe) backyard testing.

Safe backyard testing? I SNEER at your silly suggestion.

That has been done, read the Storrick article.

http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/RappelSafetyPost.html

"letting go" does not work.

This is one reason I say people mislead themselves into thinking what they do will work. It won't. I guess it is fair to say it "might", but might is the same as won't when MY life is at stake.

Tom

[hank moon]

Yeah, let me append to my last post: "and/or read the Storrick article." One reason I don't regularly refer people to this article is that a frequent takeaway is: all kinds of backups just don't work. While I don't think it was Gary's intent to reach that conclusion, many readers do. In this case, however, it seems pertinent.

[Brian in SLC]

Help me out...on the far right of the schematic, what's the issue?

[dougr]

The standard (below rap device) setup works great and should alleviate your concern about usage on larger-diameter ropes. I cannot see any advantage to using it above the device and unlocking it can be considerably more difficult.

Well I'm not a fan of below device safeties getting in the way of controlling the brake. Plus I like varying friction and tying off for photos and such.

I also have no problem releasing it once locked. I routinely let it lock and tie off. A simple mild bounce on the rope coupled with a squeeze unlocks it. I mean a really mild bounce, like shifting butt weight a bit. Very simple.

I know I'm odd in my love of the shunt used above device, but it suits my style well.

[hank moon]

Help me out...on the far right of the schematic, what's the issue?

When one rope is loaded and the other not, the unloaded rope is fatter and can prevent the Shunt from grabbing the (smaller diameter under tension) loaded rope. Essentially creating the mismatched diameter situation (middle panel in the diagram)

[coderedsafety]

I work in a confined space rescue teams and so I always keep safety backup along with me because any time there can be emergency immediate rescue confined space is important.

[mtn_dude]

I've used backups for big free hanging raps if i'm the first one down and/or a bottom belay isn't available. which i agree with several comments about that fireman belay needs to be alert or its kind of useless. and my thoughts on autoblocks and other self belays is that the need comes up only once in awhile. the first time i did pinecreek back as a mere beginner i used my VT on top but that's pretty much the last time i used a safety backup, i can think of 2 other times since then on bigger raps that i'd never done before but have since gone back and new what the rap was like so it was all good.
If you want to put one on then feel free to add that safety, but know what you are doing with it. I'd hate to hear of anyone that's said they never use em and they aren't necessary had fallen off a rap and injured themselves....that would be terribly ironic...

[Iceaxe]

After the recent Subway accident (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?65708) I thought it might be a good time to bump this thread. From reports out so far it appears an autoblock was when the snowball started rolling.....

From what I understand either his autoblock locked off and he didn't know how to escape from it... or... his autoblock got sucked into his rappel devise and caused a clusterf**k he didn't know how to escape from.

[Brian in SLC]

But...then...he cut off the harness to free himself? And, the leg loop trapped his leg/ankle?

Yikes.

I can't imagine a properly positioned autoblock would have been a dealio. But, the cord or knot or something got stuck in his belay device and caused him to grind to a stop? Unable to get free, he cut himself loose? Not an unreasonable solution I suppose. "It" happens that his foot got trapped? Ugh.

He apparently took a "how to" type class where he learned this autoblock thing? Who teaches that around Zion? And, how is it taught? Ie, do they put the rappel device out away from the harness on a tether, or, is it close off the belay loop with the autoblock off the leg loop?

Kinda wonder the gritty details of what happened. If his rappel device sucked up the autoblock and that's what jammed his progress?

Scary stuff. Being stuck upside down with your foot trapped in a leg loop from the harness, and, your harness on the rope due to being stuck on a knot...all five feet or so from ground level but free hanging? Yikes. Crappy scenario to try to recover from. If you were super tired, and, lacked a bit of strength, I wonder if most folks could aid themselves in that situation? Especially sans any equipment. Knife taped to a stick and cut yourself free?

I think good to split off from the accident thread to discuss...

[Iceaxe]

Being stuck upside down with your foot trapped in a leg loop from the harness, and, your harness on the rope due to being stuck on a knot...all five feet or so from ground level but free hanging?

But your rope is hanging next to you and scured above you.... so even if you lacked strength you should be able to construct some type of prusik system to right yourself.... that is if you even know about prusik systems.

One thought... I always teach people to climb and rappel with their packs on (or at least attached). And my reasoning is when things go bad you will have your gear with you. A prusik systems does no good if it was in your pack that you tossed to the bottom of the rappel.

[Brian in SLC]

But your rope is hanging next to you and scured above you.... so even if you lacked strength you should be able to construct some type of prusik system to right yourself.... that is if you even know about prusik systems.

If it were attached to your harness...then, a Prusik would be WAY out of reach.

Even so, difficult at best upside down with all your weight on your ankle. Not like you can step in a foot loop!

Ok, you get a Prusik on the rope, now what? You could even add another. Then what? Not many folks could correct this orientation solo. Yes, you're welcome to try this at home. Please report results.

[Deathcricket]

No I have to agree with you Brian, I think once you're hanging from your ankle you're pretty screwed. One important factor we are missing though is there a partner to help you out. Let's also not forget that the helper can be above or below him. Although not sure if a 60 year old can walk up that slippery log but is feasible. She walked down it without slipping sounds like.

I do think with a cleverly made loop in the rope, snug it on the stronger arm up past the elbow, and a pull from above, this could be sorted out. Or at worst case scenario a stick with the knife attached would make quick work or the bind. Again though an elderly person falling headfirst is very dangerous. Really depends on how it looked on the scene.

[Iceaxe]

By the time the guy was hanging upside the snowball had been rolling for a while and was moving pretty fast... part of the issue was not dealing correctly with the first problem and then creating a second bigger problem.

It takes some real work to go from a stuck rappel device to hanging up side down by one foot.


Sent using Tapatalk

[Brian in SLC]

I think his wife rappelled down first...

My bet is this situation played out for awhile. He was stuck. Probably fiddled a fair bit before coming to a solution. They were tired and gettin' more so. Day had been a long one for them. He decided a course of action with more than likely bad results, unseen ahead of time, there but for the grace, in the heat of battle...hard to be too critical IMHO. Yeah, screwed up. Tried to correct, didn't work. So, hanging there, probably feeling fairly worked and who knows what else, I can totally understand him telling the wife, "go for help". No risk for her in trying to get above him, etc. Sad, but, a pretty sober and reasonable choice. Maybe he didn't know how much the clock was ticking.

She'll never forgive herself for not being faster, or, getting lost. I've known folks in that situation, and, don't know how they got on with life, really.

Accident. Preventable? Sure. Tragic.

[Renard]

He apparently took a "how to" type class where he learned this autoblock thing? Who teaches that around Zion? And, how is it taught? Ie, do they put the rappel device out away from the harness on a tether, or, is it close off the belay loop with the autoblock off the leg loop?...

I can answer this: ZAC. Took a one day first timer class from them several years ago. Jonathan Z. took us out himself. Gave us autoblocks to attach to our leg loops and taught us to use them on every rap. This was in Water canyon. Next day we bought cord and made our own and used them in Keyhole and Pine Creek. Had never rapped ever until that day and thought it was required.

Maybe they don't teach this any longer. I was ok using one but my friends never liked the block. One actually got his stuck coming off a 130ft drop and had to cut it off halfway down. Pretty scary to be hanging there playing with a knife.

Since that time we have done many more canyons and usually don't use a block. But in cases like the last rap in PC, I usually go down first to belay people from the bottom, and I usually use an autoblock on that rap. I don't really like it but the lack of any backup on that rap freaks me out. One mistake and it is all over. But having said that we always rap on double 9's so it's probably not as dangerous as I am thinking? I am not sure - what can you do if your break hand cramps up on a big free hanging rap like that?

[2065toyota]

Add more friction. Technique varies based on what device you are using

[Iceaxe]

I am not sure - what can you do if your break hand cramps up on a big free hanging rap like that?

I'd suggest just switching hands....

Also... if I had someone that was uneasy on something like the last rap in Pine Creek and was not able to provide a fireman's belay I would use my pull cord and set up a top belay. YMMV

[Deathcricket]

I can answer this: ZAC. Took a one day first timer class from them several years ago.

I don't know if it was ZAC but "someone" still teaches this for sure. We took a noob along on one of our trips who took a one day class, and she insisted on using it also. By the end of the trip though we had convinced her of the dangers of it and got her to abandon it. But at first she was utterly convinced she would die without it. Hard to argue when someone is scared, so we just let her use it, but once she understood the fireman's belay it made more sense. I think the reason they do this is because there is only one guide on most of these trips yeah? So the pro is at the top and you can't rely on a noob to belay correctly.

I did see two separate guided groups in Water canyon though, not ZAC the other guys down the street that also do bike tours, can't recall the name. But both guys in that group just belayed them from the top. Looked very legit and competent to me. No bad habits were taught.

[mdd]

I remember a dust-up a few years back where Rich took Darren (of ATS/WCCM fame) to task for teaching the use of autoblocks in flowing water situations. Rich said by doing so it was only a matter of time before someone dies in a waterfall due to a stuck autoblock. There is a reason they don't use them outside of the US. And Rich was right.

No guide/teaching service should be teaching autoblocks in flowing water. And those that teach autoblocks on dry rappels must drill into their student's heads that they are not to be used in flowing water. Anything less is dangerous and possibly negligent.

I hate autoblocks. They cause more trouble than they are worth. It is better, I think, to teach proper rappelling technique. If someone can't safely and competently rappel, perhaps they need more training and practice before entering a canyon. Or they should have a belay - from the top.

I say this because I don't like fireman belays much either. In theory they are nice, I know of a few folks who claim they saved them, and on occasion I do ask for one, but I do so merely for the psychological boost they provide to the rappeller. The fact is, in practice they are pretty bad, for two reasons.

First, nobody knows how to do them. I would say 95% of fireman belays I have seen in canyons - even by very experienced canyoneers - are done wrong. If you are standing at the bottom, holding the rope by your side or waist, you are doing it wrong. But that's how everyone does them. If you have a bunch of slack in the rope, or if you are looking around and not at the rappeller, you are doing it wrong.

To do it correctly you need to be very cognizant of the amount of slack out. You need to watch the rappeller for the entire length of the rappel. And you should be holding the rope above your head, because pulling the slack out is much easier when you pull vertically. Yes, your arms will get tired. Don't rest them by your side, unless your rappeller is ok with you giving a marginal fireman's belay.

The other reason is that it is simply difficult to stop someone who loses control of a rappel, it is a lot harder than you think. There is the delay when they lose control and your brain registers it. There is the time to remove the slack from the system. And in those delays the rappeller can generate a lot of speed/force. Add in canyoneer's propensity to use skinny ropes or rigging incorrectly for friction, and the problem gets worse.

I also find that someone providing a good belay somewhat impedes my ability to safely rappel. A good analogy is climbing, you are on lead, desperate to clip your gear, but your belayer is slow offering slack... usually things end ok, but not a comfortable situation, and it could lead to disaster.

Cavers did an interesting test on the fireman's. The methodology isn't perfect. Results show that they can save your butt, but they aren't a 100%. Or maybe even 50%.

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/49/bottblay.html

I would love to set up a practice rigging that is safe for the belayer, but also an element of surprise, where you don't know at what point the "rappeller" loses control. I suspect many people would not be able to catch the rappeller, but I need to test that hypothesis.

If you really need a safety backup, a top belay should be used. Or just lower the person if you don't have enough rope for a top belay.


M

[Iceaxe]

Personally I'm a big fan of the fireman's belay. Simple to teach and simple to execute. It's one of the first things I teach noobs.... but like anything else, there is a wrong way and a right way to do it.

Anyhoo..... here is a short video of my 14 year old daughter saving a canyoneer's ass using a fireman's belay.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFTunPbjjxU

I will say that was probably Sierra's first real test under fire in a canyon and I was extremely proud that she preformed at such a high level.

:cool2:

[mdd]

here is a short video of my 14 year old daughter saving a canyoneer's ass using a fireman's belay.

No offense to you or your daughter Shane, but I'm not convinced. I do concede that it is hard to tell from the video, but what I see is someone falling and not letting go of their break hand, and then stopping almost instantly, which means they most likely caught themselves, with your daughter pulling on the rope acting as a backup. The reason I say that is after the person falls over the edge, they stop falling just when Sierra is beginning to pull on the rope. When the person stops falling you can see that there is still significant slack in the system below the rappeller. In other words, the person is already stopped before the fireman's belay is fully executed. It's also hard to tell from the video what your daughter's hand position was in before the fall occurred. When we finally see her hands in the video, they are at her waist. Of course this is after she is already pulling on the rope, so they could've started above her head out of video frame.

If the person was in a truly uncontrolled fall (e.g., knocked out with no hand on the break line), I am willing to bet this video would've had a very different outcome.

But as I said, it is hard to tell what is going on from the video.

I think it would be very eye opening for canyoneers to set up a test like the one in the caver article. I think many people will be surprised at how unreliable a fireman's belay is.

A fireman's is better than nothing. I think a top belay, or even better, good/safe/competent rappelling skills offer a much better safety margin.

But as you say, YMMV.


M

[Deathcricket]

Cavers did an interesting test on the fireman's. The methodology isn't perfect. Results show that they can save your butt, but they aren't a 100%. Or maybe even 50%.

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/49/bottblay.html

I would love to set up a practice rigging that is safe for the belayer, but also an element of surprise, where you don't know at what point the "rappeller" loses control. I suspect many people would not be able to catch the rappeller, but I need to test that hypothesis.

If you really need a safety backup, a top belay should be used. Or just lower the person if you don't have enough rope for a top belay.


M

Bogus info. Not applicable in canyoneering. We never do 800 foot raps or very rarely. We almost always position ourselves in a place where we can see the rapeller and know when they are in trouble, and we also have help pulling from the rappee to assist them in stopping, not dead weight doing nothing. If the person on bottom can't stop the rapper, then the friction was set wrong and that is where the fault lies, period.

Your info about doing a firemans belay properly though is spot on, pay attention, hands up, etc. Good stuff. But I think done properly it's completely safe and standard.

Top belay is just as sketchy using the mitigating factors you just mentioned. Especially since it's always pretty hard to look over the edge and see them actually fall. You just get a surprise yank on your device. Have your hands in the wrong spot feeding out line and you are just as screwed IMO. If instead you are looking up and see it happen, you can prepare for it.

Both methods are safe IMO though, but I reject your idea that top belay is more safe. At least I think that is what you are saying. Good post! :2thumbs:





TEST #

# BARS
MASS
(lbs.)
HEIGHT
(Ft.)
BELAY


1
5
175
115
CATCH


2
4
175
115
FAILURE


3
4
175
230
FAILURE


4
4
175
300
FAILURE


5
4
175
225
FAILURE


6
4
150
200
FAILURE


7
4
150
400
FAILURE


8
5
175
395
FAILURE


9
5
225
240
FAILURE


10
5
200
240
CATCH




Most our raps arent even over 300 feet. So the person would have already fallen the entire distance of the rap before this reaction time even occurred.

[mdd]

Bogus info. Not applicable in canyoneering. We never do 800 foot raps or very rarely.

Look at the link again. The rope was tied to an 800 bridge, but control was lost at between 115 and 400 feet, with most of the tests having control lost at 240 feet or less, all within the realm of canyoneering.

Granted the extra rope above the fall point does factor in, but I'd bet it isn't much.


We almost always position ourselves in a place where we can see the rapeller and know when they are in trouble, and we also have help pulling from the rappee to assist them in stopping, not dead weight doing nothing. If the person on bottom can't stop the rapper, then the friction was set wrong and that is where the fault lies, period.

I saw a video of a canyoner who slipped and fell, letting go of their break hand in the process, before free falling. How would this canyoner assist in stopping with your fireman's belay? Do you assume that anyone in need of a catch while falling on rappel is cognizant and oriented enough to aid in their stopping?



Top belay is just as sketchy using the mitigating factors you just mentioned. Especially since it's always pretty hard to look over the edge and see them actually fall. You just get a surprise yank on your device. Have your hands in the wrong spot feeding out line and you are just as screwed IMO. If instead you are looking up and see it happen, you can prepare for it.

You've obviously never belayed a second up from an anchor in a multi-pitch trad climb and caught a fall, or belayed a leader who falls when out of site (over a lip or something). I've gotten the "surprise yank on my device" many, many, many times, and with climbers the fall forces are generally greater than a rappeller being belayed from above, meaning the "yank" is stronger. I've also had many times where I've belayed a second from above, and they fell, out of my sight, and I barely registered that something happened. It's no big deal at all, if it was you'd hear about seconds falling to their deaths all of the time... but you don't, why not? What you are describing is belaying a rappeller from above using incorrect technique. Of course it won't work then, any more than a fireman's won't work with incorrect technique. My point is that it is a lot more difficult to catch a true out of control fall with a fireman's than with a top belay, and that people underestimate how hard it is to catch a fall with a fireman's to the point where it provides a very false sense of security.

The only way for sure is to set up the caver's scenario and try it yourself. I would love to be proven wrong since fireman's are so "easy", and I hope a canyoneer takes the test to prove me wrong (in a controlled environment, of course).


M

[Kuya]

I've used both prusik and autoblocks numerous times in various situations and like them. The secret is to have the know-how and common sense when and how to use them.

[mtn_dude]

I'll back the fireman's belay! I took "whale" over average weight noob down Rock Canyon early this year. He slipped near the top of the big rap and with very little ease i stopped him dead in his tracks, he got his feet back under him and he continued down the rappel. I try to always use a fireman's when possible, competent canyoneer or not.

[Deathcricket]

I saw a video of a canyoner who slipped and fell, letting go of their break hand in the process, before free falling. How would this canyoner assist in stopping with your fireman's belay? Do you assume that anyone in need of a catch while falling on rappel is cognizant and oriented enough to aid in their stopping?
M

Got a link? I searched and searched for a failed firemans belay on video but I've yet to see one or even heard of one existing. If it failed and someone splatted it would be on video, trust me. The only one I could find was a dude let completely go of the rope with no belay at all. And again, I'm saying they are both safe methods. I think your assumption that a correct top belay is more safe than a correct bottom belay doesn't hold water with me. Plus a bottom belay is way faster and infinitely more efficient for groups, plus you dont need an extra rope. I've caught hundreds of noobs falling and you don't have to end up pulling any harder on the line than they were. Using 2 hands and my body weight, I can stop anyone pretty damn quick.


You've obviously never belayed a second up from an anchor in a multi-pitch trad climb and caught a fall, or belayed a leader who falls when out of site (over a lip or something). I've gotten the "surprise yank on my device" many, many, many times, and with climbers the fall forces are generally greater than a rappeller being belayed from above, meaning the "yank" is stronger. I've also had many times where I've belayed a second from above, and they fell, out of my sight, and I barely registered that something happened. It's no big deal at all, if it was you'd hear about seconds falling to their deaths all of the time... but you don't, why not? What you are describing is belaying a rappeller from above using incorrect technique. Of course it won't work then, any more than a fireman's won't work with incorrect technique. My point is that it is a lot more difficult to catch a true out of control fall with a fireman's than with a top belay, and that people underestimate how hard it is to catch a fall with a fireman's to the point where it provides a very false sense of security.

You're introducing variables like you cant see the person, the person gains speed, completely let's go of the rope, falls 100 feet before starting a brake, etc, To try and prove a bottom belay is dangerous, yet use a correctly performed top belay experience to support your premise and discount any variables? What planet you from dude? :lol8:

[Eric Holden]

I have caught people with a fireman's belay. I am 300lbs, he was about 190. He was on a ~45ft waterfall rappel using an ATC. He slipped and used his break hand to prevent smashing into the wall. When performing a fireman's I always keep my hands up high on the rope. I pulled back using all my weight/arm strength. He ended up falling about 3-4 ft and hit his head against the wall (That is why we always wear Helmets). The Fireman's belay completely worked the way it should. The rappeler was fine except for a bruised ego that he let go of his life line.

[ratagonia]

I can't imagine a properly positioned autoblock would have been a dealio. But, the cord or knot or something got stuck in his belay device and caused him to grind to a stop? ...

I can.

I've done a rappel off a log at this location in the past, and it features the exciting "Rodeo Start". Nudge off the ledge and fall onto the rappel, swinging wildly underneath the log.

A beginner doing this? I can see turning upside down, grabbing at things... very definitely the kind of upside-downess that puts the leg-loop-attached autobloc into the rappel device. He may even have been unable to get back up into an upright position.

Yeah, falling 15 feet to the deck was not a good option, but it may have been the best available. Unfortunately it did not work.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I'm with Mike on the top belay v the fireman's. I much prefer to belay from the top (or sling shot, from the bottom). Top belay requires me to do something the entire time forcing me to pay attention. Fireman's is reactive.

Another reason is I don't like to be right below someone who might dislodge something. You can't really be on top of a fireman's and out of the way at the same time.

Different styles I suppose. And, I do appreciate the fireman's for less experienced friends on rappel, too. If I don't trust that they can rappel, I just prefer to be above and have them on belay.

I've practised fireman's a bunch. Actually did it last weekend climbing whilst stopping quickly on rappel to grab some tat from around a tree to the side of the rappel anchor. Had my partner at the anchor be my brake hand for a second. Works slick when it works!

[Brian in SLC]

A beginner doing this? I can see turning upside down, grabbing at things... very definitely the kind of upside-downess that puts the leg-loop-attached autobloc into the rappel device. He may even have been unable to get back up into an upright position.

I said, "properly positioned". Seems like most folks using an autoblock effectively have it so it doesn't come any where near the rappel device...

I've seen "properly positioned" autoblocks grab onto the rope and stop someone. No biggie. Easy fix.

Folks that are taught the leg loop method with an autoblock too near a rappel device not pitched out from their belay loop on the harness? Not good. If you can rotate your hip and get that autoblock anywhere near the rap device, you've really defeated the purpose of using one in the first place. It'll either fail to grab the rope, or, jam. Neither situation a good option in the heat of battle.

Proper rappel technique and experience trumps all this back up stuff.

[ratagonia]

I don't know if it was ZAC but "someone" still teaches this for sure. We took a noob along on one of our trips who took a one day class, and she insisted on using it also. By the end of the trip though we had convinced her of the dangers of it and got her to abandon it. But at first she was utterly convinced she would die without it. Hard to argue when someone is scared, so we just let her use it, but once she understood the fireman's belay it made more sense. I think the reason they do this is because there is only one guide on most of these trips yeah? So the pro is at the top and you can't rely on a noob to belay correctly.

I did see two separate guided groups in Water canyon though, not ZAC the other guys down the street that also do bike tours, can't recall the name. But both guys in that group just belayed them from the top. Looked very legit and competent to me. No bad habits were taught.

EVERYONE in Springdale teaches a one-day beginner course. There are now at least four options, Zion Adventure Co, Zion Rock, Zion Mountain School and Red Desert Adventures.

When I (and most of the we, including Zion Adventure, and most probably the rest of the above) teach a one-day or half-day class, we make careful evaluations about the student's natural abilities and their rate of learning. We (in this case ZAC) stress teaching a simple system and practicing it a lot. The system I teach depends on the students, but generally I would pick one way of rigging a rope and one way of setting oneself up on rappel, and sticking with that. If this couple were my students, I probably would have set them up on a double-rope rappel with a Pirana and an autobloc.

It is a matter of judgment about when to move past the autobloc. In most of my classes for people that I think will continue canyoneering, I make a point that the autobloc is a crutch that they need to understand and grow past quickly. However, most of the classes I teach are three-day classes, where I make a point of getting people past the "autobloc phase" during the class. In a one-day class, it is much harder to get past that point, or even to get to the point where the idea of no-auto-bloc can be introduced.

We also emphasize the Fireman's belay as being a better overall backup system than the autobloc.

For many people, a canyoneering class is extremely stressful, and they only remember some of the material presented. Thus, we like to have many repetitions of the simple system, and not confuse things by introducing conflicting or complementary ideas.

I have had several couples (as it turns out) fail the one-day basic class. At the end of the class, the question is what canyons can they do on their own. On two occasions, I have told couples that they would not be up for doing the Subway (but yes for Keyhole); although mostly that is because 240-lb non-hikers would not be able to do The Subway in July. On both occasions, they knew it, and were grateful for the confirmation (rather than pissed off), and were happy with the experience of the day, and reveled in the knowledge that canyoneering would not be their sport.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I'm with Mike on the top belay v the fireman's. I much prefer to belay from the top (or sling shot, from the bottom).

No argument from me that a top belay is much better then a fireman's all things being equal.

My reason for liking a fireman belays is they are simple, fast, anyone can do them with a few minutes practice and my family uses them as a back-up. Realistically we are not going to top belay the entire group of experienced canyoneers because of time constraints. But there is really no reason not to set a fireman's belay in most cases as it requires almost zero effort or additional time.

[ghawk]

No argument from me that a top belay is much better then a fireman's all things being equal.

My reason for liking a fireman belay is they are simple, fast, anyone can do them with a few minutes practice and my family uses them as a back-up. Realistically we are not going to top belay the entire group of experienced canyoneers because of time constraints. But there is really no reason not to set a fireman's belay in most cases as it requires almost zero effort or additional time.

x2 We always fireman belay if possible. I've stopped 2-3 people completely out of control and another handful who were losing it. Way more practical and quick than a top belay. Top belay is more full proof, true, but generally people who need the fireman belay are trying in some way to stop themselves and the added force of the fireman belay is enough. I've never encountered a situation where it wasn't enough. I once had a girl completely let go of the rope on her way down the 300 footer in engelstead. She was about 150-200 feet up and I pulled hard to stop her and then lower her slowly. When she got to the bottom I asked her what happened and she said "I got tired and knew you would take care of me" :facepalm1::facepalm1::facepalm1: That totally gave me the chills :cold: I never took her again.. but the fireman belay worked.

[mtn_dude]

My reason for liking a fireman belays is they are simple, fast, anyone can do them with a few minutes practice and my family uses them as a back-up. Realistically we are not going to top belay the entire group of experienced canyoneers because of time constraints. But there is really no reason not to set a fireman's belay in most cases as it requires almost zero effort or additional time.

x3! on the fireman's belay.

[ratagonia]

I'm with Mike on the top belay v the fireman's. I much prefer to belay from the top (or sling shot, from the bottom). Top belay requires me to do something the entire time forcing me to pay attention. Fireman's is reactive.

Another reason is I don't like to be right below someone who might dislodge something. You can't really be on top of a fireman's and out of the way at the same time.

Different styles I suppose. And, I do appreciate the fireman's for less experienced friends on rappel, too. If I don't trust that they can rappel, I just prefer to be above and have them on belay.

I've practised fireman's a bunch. Actually did it last weekend climbing whilst stopping quickly on rappel to grab some tat from around a tree to the side of the rappel anchor. Had my partner at the anchor be my brake hand for a second. Works slick when it works!

All you strong advocates of the top belay: I'll believe it when I see someone do it. I don't. EVER. Except certain guides.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

All you strong advocates of the top belay: I'll believe it when I see someone do it. I don't. EVER. Except certain guides.

Maybe you just need to get out more, Tom...

59281

59282

I do it all the time...

[ratagonia]

Maybe you just need to get out more, Tom...

I do it all the time...

North Wash season coming soon ...

T

[Brian in SLC]

North Wash? Heck, I'd gladly accept a top belay from you for some of them down climbs....!

Skinny, narrow slots are frightening to me.... A man has to know his limitations.

[Bo_Beck]

All you strong advocates of the top belay: I'll believe it when I see someone do it. I don't. EVER. Except certain guides.

Tom

I use a belay from top all the time (practice and for real). On long lowers the belayer better understand "rope weight" vs "belayed mass" particularly when visual contact becomes an issue. Large bellys can easily be introduced into the belay line as the belayer thinks the rope weight is actually the weight of the person being belayed. Back tension is critical to prevent "a belly" or slack into the belay line. We did a pick-off on Angels Landing last summer. Using 2 -1300' ropes and a 300' rope tied to the ends of each, an operation of shared load for both main and belay was done. Without radio comm. a large belly could have easily been introduced into either main or belay. Finally it took 2 of us to use hand-over tension on the belay to prevent a belly. Same thing could happen whilst belaying from the top of lets say Heaps? Unless the belayer shares the mass of the rappeler. a large belly could easily develope in the belay line and if the rappeler lost control lets say 50' above the ground, by the time the top belay could accept the total mass, with stretch I bet the rappeler will have decked?

[Brian in SLC]

Yeah, Bo, keep an eye on them large bellys...

For me, and "my people" (the folks I feel responsible for), the most critical time is just gettin' going on rappel. Once they start down and they're fairly smooth, then, I try to give them enough slack that they don't feel the belay. Near the bottom, when the rope weight changes, I let the "belly" disappear and want to feel them a bit more, or, if I can see them, then see that there's a bit of tension in the line. Usually try to get a verbal from them that they're doing ok too.

But, you're right, near the bottom, when the friction is lower due to less rope weight, it'd be easy to blow it. At 100 feet, even with only 3% elongation, you wouldn't need much "belly" to have someone hit the ground fairly hard if they lost control of the rappel near the ground.

Good thoughts!

[rcwild]

For me, and "my people" (the folks I feel responsible for), the most critical time is just gettin' going on rappel. Once they start down and they're fairly smooth, then, I try to give them enough slack that they don't feel the belay...

When the primary (or only) concern is helping people make that transition over the edge, try giving them a short 2:1 belay. Requires a length of rope that is twice the distance from the anchor to the spot over the edge where you want the belay to end. I typically figure out that distance, then connect the rope with a clove hitch to a carabiner on the anchor. Pass a loop of rope through a carabiner on the rappeller's harness, then back through a second carabiner on the anchor. If the rappeller is heavy or you are simply concerned about your ability to arrest, use a munter hitch on the second carabiner.

Once the rappeller reaches the belay-end spot, the tail of the rope will come out of your second carabiner. The belayer should control where the tail drops -- don't let it hit the rappeller, drag loose rock over the edge, etc. The advantage of this system is that the rappeller does not have to stop to disconnect the belay rope. Also no need to pull up a long belay rope and it is quick to rig on the next rappeller.

Needless to say, it is not a system that will work in all situations. Depends on the anchor location, etc. When it is deemed prudent to provide belay all the way to the ground, choose another belay method.

59447

[taatmk]

Another reason is I don't like to be right below someone who might dislodge something. You can't really be on top of a fireman's and out of the way at the same time.
!


I have successfully stopped someone with a Fireman's and yet not been directly below. When there is a risk of rocks being dislodged from above, I have moved off vertical, out to the side, and still been able to effectively employ the Fireman. The rappeller often gets pulled off vertical, but the effect is still the same.


Kerry

[sasteve49]

Personal preference, I just much prefer a single rope rap to the double rope unless its just such a short rap as to make setting up a beaner block(or releasable figure 8) just time consuming. The times I have done Heaps, I like to single with an autoblock on that looong freehang.....unless the rope is wet and sandy. Game changer!

[bioject]

I consider using an auto block or prusik system for belay to be extremely unnecessary and potentially dangerous. I often use the phrase, it is so safe, it creates more problems than it solves. A competent belayer should be able to tie off their descender in an emergency and should never let go of the break hand.

The reason I feel this way is because of stories I've been told regarding accidents related to auto blocks and a first hand experience. I've heard of people getting their auto blocks jammed in their belay devices and getting stuck mid rappel. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that old man in subway die because he couldn't untension his autoblock in the waterfall?

I also think autoblocks are like training wheels that teach bad form and develop a dangerous reliance to the device. Once when I met a Canyoneer who was using one, I suggested he don't use it because it tends to create more problems. He unfortunately listened to me and on his next rappel, slipped, let go of his break hand and fell 30 feet. Fortunately he was not hurt. Because he relied on the autoblock, he never built the muscle memory to grip his break hand no matter what.

People use it as a crutch and become comfortable letting go of their break hand with an autoblock when this practice should never be done.

So this is why I do not recommend using an autoblock unless there is a special circumstance that deems it appropriate.

I also agree with other posters that a fireman belay is a great alternative.

[tcott]

Does anyone have experience rigging an autoblock to the same carabiner as the rappel device? Came across something like this on a video the other day and it made me curious.

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[ratagonia]

Hmmmmm. Interesting.

I'm not fond of autobloc above the device, because should it be needed, it has 100% of weight on it. Could be hard to get released after setting. Also, in a loss of control incident, it is very difficult to let go of a friction knot in that position.

Also, IF you were doing it, you would want to use a real prusik cord - the Hollowbloc, once used, is not full body-weight strong - as in, I know people who have seen one break in training (no consequences).

Lots of "rappel backup" illusions out there. Not a lot of information from using them on an everyday basis.

Tom

[tcott]

Hmmmmm. Interesting.

I'm not fond of autobloc above the device, because should it be needed, it has 100% of weight on it. Could be hard to get released after setting. Also, in a loss of control incident, it is very difficult to let go of a friction knot in that position.

Also, IF you were doing it, you would want to use a real prusik cord - the Hollowbloc, once used, is not full body-weight strong - as in, I know people who have seen one break in training (no consequences).

Lots of "rappel backup" illusions out there. Not a lot of information from using them on an everyday basis.

Tom

I thought it was interesting as well. As for the hollowblock, I just grabbed what was available off the rack. If I set something up like this it would be with a VT prusik that is generally above the device anyways because of the length of it, and can be easily released under load. I just hadn't ever thought to rig it on the same biner as the rappel device.

[kiwi_outdoors]

seems to me that if you don't like descending on an ATC - i.e., you don't trust your instincts or Lady Luck, then use a caver's rack and be done with it. Yes, its heavy - but its a great tool. Otherwise all but the first person down gets a Fireman's belay if they want it.

[TheBird]

I use an autoblock attached to a leg loop when the rappel is a little tricky, like when rappelling over a large overhang or if i need to uncross ropes on the way down. It is a really effective technique to use if leading beginners into technical canyons, as i think it gives them a little extra confidence. Its also nice to use if you're taking some pictures on rappel.