Kolob this weekend

[qedcook]

I called the Washington reservoir release schedule place. They mentioned that they are releasing 3 cfs of water throughout the weekend to the high plateua region. None of that will reach Kolob Canyon *if the dam does not reach overflowing. They mentioned that the dam is about 6 inches from the overflow point. It's difficult to judge if it's safe or not because their recommendation is to never go down Kolob.

Thoughts? Safe for Monday?

[ratagonia]

Kolob is never safe.

Yes, when they release water from the Dam, it reaches the crossing of the road and often reaches the technical part of the canyon. I do not know what you mean by "None of that will reach Kolob Canyon". That makes no sense.

"It's difficult to judge if it's safe or not because their recommendation is to never go down Kolob."

What their lawyer told them to say seems really rather beside the point when exercising your personal judgment. I am disturbed that you think the Washington County Water Conservancy District can make a judgment about whether you and your friends can safely transit Kolob Canyon. The canyon itself is highly un-safe, and can never be "safe". Is NEVER safe. EVER.

What was your question again?

3cfs is mild, for Kolob. Make a smart decision when you get to the canyon.

Tom :moses:

[qedcook]

Always in attack mode, eh Tom?

Tom said: "I do not know what you mean by "None of that will reach Kolob Canyon". That makes no sense."

qedcook says: That's just what they told me.

Tom said: "I am disturbed that you think the Washington County Water Conservancy District can make a judgment about whether you and your friends can safely transit Kolob Canyon."

qedcook says: That's not what I said, you jerk! Never mind. I don't want your useless help,you #$%^&.

[Scott Card]

:roll:

[Byron]

Hey Tom, yes...you're buddy from the political section! I know this is really none of my business, but finally I've decided to poke my snout into this one. You need to take a chill pill, dude. Numerous times outside the basement I've read your snarky posts at people asking what you think are "stupid" questions. Why don't you keep that crap confined to the lower end of this forum? If it's not already established, you are fast forming the reputation as a crabby, cantankerous curmudgeon. With your skill and knowledge you SHOULD be a hero around here. Cool your jets, change your tactics and there's a good chance you can redeem yourself. Pretty soon the only thing you'll be worth is beta, everything else will be ignored. How would you greet these people at a Bogleyfest? I'm not trying to badger you Tom, I'm serious. Anybody want to second the notion? Surely there are many who will agree with me.

[ratagonia]

It's difficult to judge if it's safe or not because their recommendation is to never go down Kolob.

None of that will reach Kolob Canyon *if the dam does not reach overflowing.


I'm sorry qedcook. I read your words by their standard definitions; apparently you meant something different.

It is difficult to judge whether it is reasonable, until you actually get there, and see how much water is flowing into the canyon.

If they are releasing 3cfs out the dam, that is the normal low release level, so does not indicate any unusual flow. See the book, page 198.

Water is unlikely to overflow the dam in the next week.

When they release 3cfs from the dam, about that amount of water is usually found at the first rappel. There is also often flow out of blue reservoir, but it is usually not more than 1 or 2 cfs, so has little effect. In very dry conditions, a 3cfs flow from the dam might mostly dry out before it gets to the first rappel, especially if not assisted by a bit of flow from Blue Reservoir. I don't think we are in very dry conditions yet, but maybe in a month or so.

I have heard that people are doing Kolob, including my buddy Slot Machine yesterday or today, but I have not heard a report from anyone who has gone through.

WTF did you find so very offensive in my other post?

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Hey Tom, yes...you're buddy from the political section! I know this is really none of my business, but finally I've decided to poke my snout into this one. You need to take a chill pill, dude. Numerous times outside the basement I've read your snarky posts at people asking what you think are "stupid" questions. Why don't you keep that crap confined to the lower end of this forum? If it's not already established, you are fast forming the reputation as a crabby, cantankerous curmudgeon. With your skill and knowledge you SHOULD be a hero around here. Cool your jets, change your tactics and there's a good chance you can redeem yourself. Pretty soon the only thing you'll be worth is beta, everything else will be ignored. How would you greet these people at a Bogleyfest? I'm not trying to badger you Tom, I'm serious. Anybody want to second the notion? Surely there are many who will agree with me.

Thank you for your kind advice, Byron.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

You did come across a bit dickish there, Tom.

Easy enough to say "worth a look but be prepared to make your own judgement call" or the like.

I need to do Kolob again. Been too long...

[ewestesen]

a crabby, cantankerous curmudgeon

Just one more charming little facet of canyoneering. What would canyoneering be if we didn't a few crabby, cantankerous curmudgeons around?

[Sombeech]

I might be crazy but I didn't seem to think Tom was too out of line :mrgreen: There you go Tom, savor the flavor :lol8:

I guess I read it as Kolob is never safe, be prepared for anything.

[ratagonia]

I might be crazy but I didn't seem to think Tom was too out of line :mrgreen: There you go Tom, savor the flavor :lol8:

I guess I read it as Kolob is never safe, be prepared for anything.

Thank you Sombeech. :afro: Love the hair.

Flavor savored.

T

[Scott Card]

Shall I??? What the heck. It's a Friday before a holiday weekend.

Way back when, (pre-Bogley) I was less than articulate in a post on the Yahoo Group about an Englestead adventure. Tom called me out. I smiled and took the bate to see where the line would drag me. It ended up with me puffing my chest on the forum and calling him out, all in good fun mind you, and my group and I were invited to participate in FreezeFest numero tres I think. I had a blast with Tom Jones even when he yelled at me for stepping off trial. :haha: Tom and I are at two ends of the political spectrum but I consider him a wonderful canyoneering friend.

Another helpful hint: Ya'll need to understand that Tom's replies are being read by everyone who doesn't know you or Tom but who are gleaning information about canyons and canyoneering. Although it may sting a bit, this is an open forum where there are a bunch of lookie-loos who are learning. Granted, some will be too timid to participate for fear of being called out. That is OK, I guess but the best way to learn sometimes is to take a bit of criticism and humbly consider it. Look at his posts in that light and they make more sense and aren't so personal.

Finally, remember, Tom is a self-proclaimed curmudgeon. :haha:

[ratagonia]

Shall I??? What the heck. It's a Friday before a holiday weekend.

Way back when, (pre-Bogley) I was less than articulate in a post on the Yahoo Group about an Englestead adventure. Tom called me out. I smiled and took the bait to see where the line would drag me. It ended up with me puffing my chest on the forum and calling him out, all in good fun mind you, and my group and I were invited to participate in FreezeFest numero tres I think. I had a blast with Tom Jones even when he yelled at me for stepping off trail. :haha: Tom and I are at two ends of the political spectrum but I consider him a wonderful canyoneering friend.

Another helpful hint: Ya'll need to understand that Tom's replies are being read by everyone who doesn't know you or Tom but who are gleaning information about canyons and canyoneering. Although it may sting a bit, this is an open forum where there are a bunch of lookie-loos who are learning. Granted, some will be too timid to participate for fear of being called out. That is OK, I guess but the best way to learn sometimes is to take a bit of criticism and humbly consider it. Look at his posts in that light and they make more sense and aren't so personal.

Finally, remember, Tom is a self-proclaimed curmudgeon. :haha:

Thank you Scott. Sentiments appreciated.

Tom

[Taylor]

A little help here, without politics or emotions please. :roll: I would like to better understand the logistics or hydro-logistics of the Kolob Creek and reservoir system. From the statements in the original post, it seems there are two ways water is entering the creek below the dam: manually released water (currently 3cfs) and water overflowing the spillway when the reservoir is full (which there is none but may be soon as the reservoir is 6" from full). Is this correct? If so, the WCWCD will tell us how much they are releasing but only a visual inspection will confirm how much water is in the creek. We plan to attempt Kolob later in the summer when it gets a bit warmer.

[Scott Card]

Let me start by saying people have died in there due to high "hydro-logisitics" as you put it. . Kolob is tricky in that you have floating disconnects if ropes aren't set, rap and swim only to get on rap again on the same rope on a skinny edge to the next swim. What is your experience with flowing water in a canyon. My experience is, well, not much class c canyon experience hence, this canyoneer wouldn't go in to Kolob with more than say about 5 cfs. unless I was tagging along with some class c canyon gurus.

Also, do you go blindly into a canyon based on a weather report? No. You have your eye to the sky - good or bad report. I have done some canyons with terrible reports but blue skys - it felt OK to go in. I have not done other canyons when the report was a 10-20% chance of rain because of that I saw, past experience, felt, etc. You evaluate as you go. You listen to your gut if you are uncomfortable. The canyon will be there tomorrow. Same with the Water District. What Tom is saying is that they tell you only one piece of information that should be added to all of your other information you will gather as you decide whether to do this canyon. What they tell you is not a guarantee of safety, not a green light, not anything other than they are releasing X amount of water from the dam. That is it. Period. What you do with that tidbit is up to you.

Please note that they will probably be releasing MORE water in the summer due to some fish or farmer or something that they are trying to protect or provide for.

[ratagonia]

A little help here, without politics or emotions please. :roll: I would like to better understand the logistics or hydro-logistics of the Kolob Creek and reservoir system. From the statements in the original post, it seems there are two ways water is entering the creek below the dam: manually released water (currently 3cfs) and water overflowing the spillway when the reservoir is full (which there is none but may be soon as the reservoir is 6" from full). Is this correct? If so, the WCWCD will tell us how much they are releasing but only a visual inspection will confirm how much water is in the creek. We plan to attempt Kolob later in the summer when it gets a bit warmer.

There have been a few changes in the WCWCD in the last few years, and then we had a bunch of wet years, so it is hard to know how things will shake out this year.

A couple of years ago, the WCWCD completed a pipeline from another water source into Kolob Reservoir, thus increasing their supply of water in KR, thus allowing them to release more water through the summer and fall. Good for their downstream irrigation clients, not so good for canyoneers wanting to do Kolob. Also, in the spring, excess snowmelt has in some years overflowed the KR such that water went "over the dam" for a week or a month in the spring. To me, this seems unlikely to happen this year, as the melt is pretty much over. But that extra pipeline could mess up my calculations, so...

The "standard maintenance" flow out the dam is 3-5 cfs, set manually by a person by opening the gate at the dam a bit. The rate is subject to "eyeball" adjustment, so it is rough, so the 3cfs can be anywhere from hardly a trickle to a bit of an interesting flow. There is really no way to know until you get to the first rappel. You should check the flow where the highway crosses the stream, but it is somewhat hard to judge the real flow at that point. You may also be able to see if there is much flowing over the edge from Blue Reservoir, which you can kinda see from the same location.

When things are dry, and have been dry for awhile, that 3cfs flow gets mostly absorbed into the ground before the first rappel. I don't think it has been dry long enough up there for it to count yet, so I would GUESS that the flow at the first rappel is about 3cfs, if that is what they say they are releasing.

WCWCD releases water for their downstream irrigators when they think they should. Most years they do establish a schedule a week or two at a time, and you can find that schedule by calling them. When they release water, it is in the 10-30cfs range, which is a ton of water for that little canyon. There may be people capable of transiting the canyon with that much flow, but I am not one of them.

When will they release water this year?

Good question. They probably have a general idea but have not set a schedule yet, but I would guess they will be releasing in July and August and into September. The general rule of thumb for Kolob is you need to get on it when it is available, because the availability is quite unpredictable.

May I suggest that a trip through Boundary is a wise investment of your time, if planning a Kolob trip. Boundary is cold and wet, though without actual swims, and is a significantly shorter route than Kolob. Thus, you will get to 'enjoy' the MIA Exit (for the first time) at a more leisurely pace than you will if coming from Kolob. Once you have MIA'd once, it becomes considerably easier (though some of us it took three times to actually find the easiest path). Boundary is also quite a fine canyon on its own merits. It has been wet year-round (or close) the last few years, but it is likely to go dry this August or September, assuming the dry trend continues. Boundary can be very cold - don't misunderestimate it!

Some pictures of what it looks like with too much water can be found here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1007kolob/index.htm

Does that answer your questions?

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Lots of water enters through seapage. Even if zero water is being realesed from the dam you will have flow in Kolob. At about 10cfs a slip in Kolob could be deadly.

[spinesnaper]

qedcook says: That's not what I said, you jerk! Never mind. I don't want your useless help,you #$%^&.

WT#$%^&. Wow. Tom, I just don't see your comments as out of line. I think your are right to point out that water flow low enough to get a permit from the park service is not equivalent to being safe in the canyon. I am not even sure if the Temple of Sinawava river walk is safe. I am sure qedcook knows that. But remember, the kids are also reading these threads-got to protect the kids.:bash:

Ken

[Taylor]

Thanks Tom, that answers my questions. Nice pics of the waterfall. Reminds me of hiking up to Rocky Mouth last June to rap the waterfall. One look and: nope, we'll try it in August!

[Bo_Beck]

Some pictures of what it looks like with too much water can be found here: http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1007kolob/index.htm

Tom :moses:

I believe it was 1997? that we (the park staff) went through Kolob with water levels equivalent or greater to assess water flow hazard. It was testy to say the least! The hydraulics were dang powerful, and the water (thru waterfalls) hitting on bodies hurt! I will admit, not knowing any better at the time, that it was pretty fun and exciting, but in retrospect realize the imminent dangers that existed, and how lucky we were that no one was injured or killed. I find that today I still can have just as much fun or more with water flow at 5cfs or less.

[nielse2]

Well, I did kolob yesterday... its flowing nicely. Although I would be hard pressed to make an accurate judgement of the actuall flow rate, it seemed like a bit more than 3 cfs to me... but perhaps thats just my inexperience, I'll post some pics later and you guys can be the judges... Oh and there is a FREE waterproof shockproof camera to the luck one who finds it... it bounced out of my pack somewhere about 5 minutes before the creek goes underground to about 20 minutes after the end of the creek on the hike out... But i would like the pictures, so please let me know if you find it...

[nielse2]

And although tom can be a bit grumbly sometimes, I do appreciate all his helpful advice that I have gleaned from my countless hours trolling on bogley...

So thanks Tom

[nielse2]

54472

Am I way offbase or is that only 3 cfs??

[ratagonia]

54472

Am I way offbase or is that only 3 cfs??

Yeah, looks like 2-3 cfs.

Tom

[Bootboy]

I'm eyeing kolob in the next few weeks myself. I need thoughts on my wetsuit, will my 5/4mm full be more or less adequate? I know this is somewhat subjective but I wonder what others typically wear. I have a 2mm top I can double up if needed. I consider my cold water tolerance to be on the high side of average. Whats the defacto kolob uniform?

[Scott Card]

I wear a 4/3 full and carry a hooded vest that Tom sells in case I need more warmth.

[Brian in SLC]

I seem to recall Tom not enjoying a shorty...ha ha...

I think a full 4/5 would be great. But, I'm fairly cold tolerant too. And, I stay hydrated for that extra burst of warmth...

[Bootboy]

Sounds good. Looks like I'm set on that end. I'll wear my 5/4 and carry my 2mm top just in case.

[Bootboy]

Another question, if you plan to do kolob out the narrows, I assume you'll need a permit for the narrows, correct?

[Brian in SLC]

Another question, if you plan to do kolob out the narrows, I assume you'll need a permit for the narrows, correct?

Nope. I don't think so. You've already got a permit, and, your end destination should be indicated as TOS. Same with anything dropping into the NF of the Virgin.

Is that right?

[BW123]

__

[nielse2]

Yep, I exited out the narrows and they dont require a seperate permit for the narrows, or to camp either (as long as you camp before you enter the NF). It was actually pretty easy...

[Brian in SLC]

As one who has done Kolob Creek out the Narrows in a full day, I would say that it is extremely unlikely the average canyoneer can do the same.

Is that right?

I would think you are correct. You aren't the average canyoneer.

Ha ha!

Yeah, camp in the Kolob drainage. Easy. A narrows camping permit is sweet, though, as those camps are pretty neat.

Still would like to see the "lads" do the trifecta and finish out the narrows. The math works...

[ratagonia]

I seem to recall Tom not enjoying a shorty...ha ha...

I think a full 4/5 would be great. But, I'm fairly cold tolerant too. And, I stay hydrated for that extra burst of warmth...

Two shorties, as I remember, and definitely not-enjoyable!!!

A 4/3 for me, now, but I'd have some booster stuff available too.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Yep, I exited out the narrows and they dont require a seperate permit for the narrows, or to camp either (as long as you camp before you enter the NF). It was actually pretty easy...

In Zion, when you do "more than one canyon", you need quota in each canyon, but if you do not travel in a vehicle between canyons, they can all go on one permit.

So, when you get a Kolob permit, you pay one permit fee. That permit CAN include camping in Kolob and exiting out the Narrows (if Narrows quota is available.) I think you can get to the campsite at the intersection with the Narrows, but it might be simpler to just camp in Kolob. You might end up hiking to the Narrows to get water, then back up Kolob a bit to camp in the correct zone.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Clinton - "Don't ask, Don't Tell".

Wasn't he talking about the Zion Park Permit System when he said that?

[Byron]

Anybody know what the fine is if you get nailed poaching? Not only a dayhike "canyon with ropes" but also for sleeping sans permit. I wouldn't even think about it in the narrows, you may be crashing someone's spot, literally. Surely it's over $100?

[Scott Card]

Anybody know what the fine is if you get nailed poaching? Not only a dayhike "canyon with ropes" but also for sleeping sans permit. I wouldn't even think about it in the narrows, you may be crashing someone's spot, literally. Surely it's over $100?

:facepalm1: Did you just ask that out loud? They have spies..... :haha:

[Byron]

Oh heck, whether you ask the question directly or allude to it slight of hand, it's all the same...so, any backcounrty rangers or others have an answer? Would you tell if you did? I'm just curious. If your going to endorse or imply "Don't ask, don't tell" may as well know what the penalty is if busted. Not saying you're endorsing that, Scott.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I've heard 250 in the past.

[ratagonia]

We've been over this before.

The citing ranger has a fair amount of discretion, but CAN give you and EACH member of the party up to $500.00 fine.

If you contest the citation, the magistrate can inflict greater harm. I had heard up to $ 1000.00 fine and 90 days in jail.

One way to get the maximum fine is to LIE to the ranger. They really don't like that. :facepalm1:

Just get the permit, it's not that hard. :roll:

There are also societal ramifications of failing to comply. Our standing to negotiate terms with the Park, limited as it is, is contingent on the canyoneering community complying with the permit system, no matter how inconvenient.

So, please don't. :nono:

Tom

[Byron]

Yeah, Tom...I can dig it. 5 benjies would certainly be a deterrent. Personally, the only place I've "not paid" is way out in the backcountry of the North Rim, when timing or distance to get "official" is a super pain in the ass. You can waste a whole day and a tank of gas just to give them $30. That's certainly not the case in Zion, but doing the permit "shuffle" does eat up into some precious time...

I can't tell you how many "illegal" backpackers I've run into. You can always tell, they are nervous and sleep in the bushes. I would imagine everyday in Zion people are "going for it" despite the quota. They drove all the way out there and won't be stopped, ya know? I just wonder if they ever park a ranger at the last rappel at Pine Creek or the parking lot at the end of Left fork to check "papers", handing out tickets for non compliance. I've been there dozens of times and never been asked. Oh well, probably shouldn't talk about it at all...like Scott implied. "Let a sleeping dog lie".

[ratagonia]

Yeah, Tom...I can dig it. 5 benjies would certainly be a deterrent. Personally, the only place I've "not paid" is way out in the backcountry of the North Rim, when timing or distance to get "official" is a super pain in the ass. You can waste a whole day and a tank of gas just to give them $30. That's certainly not the case in Zion, but doing the permit "shuffle" does eat up into some precious time...

I can't tell you how many "illegal" backpackers I've run into. You can always tell, they are nervous and sleep in the bushes. I would imagine everyday in Zion people are "going for it" despite the quota. They drove all the way out there and won't be stopped, ya know? I just wonder if they ever park a ranger at the last rappel at Pine Creek or the parking lot at the end of Left fork to check "papers", handing out tickets for non compliance. I've been there dozens of times and never been asked. Oh well, probably shouldn't talk about it at all...like Scott implied. "Let a sleeping dog lie".

They certainly post rangers at the end of the Subway on a regular basis. Scott is friends with them. Last year they had a considerable effort to catch some pirate guides.

Tom

[Byron]

"Guides?" Now that takes balls! Or lack of brains...there's a $500 slap upside the head for ya...that's just reckless.

[ratagonia]

"Guides?" Now that takes balls! Or lack of brains...there's a $500 slap upside the head for ya...that's just reckless.

Not really. They caught one guy (at least), and slapped his wrist. Kinda pitiful, really, considering how much it costs us (ZAC) to guide legitimately on BLM land (ie, a LOT).

Tom