Newbs in over their heads

[Bootboy]

Canyoneering is a more recent foray for me but I come from an extensive alpine climbing background. I feel that I have a solid handle on the basics of rope work, safety, wilderness travel, and have amassed a fair amount of canyon specific skills.

I always wear a helmet and require it for anyone who accompanies me into a canyon. I adamantly forbid any cotton in potentially wet canyons and make sure everyone has a rain jacket and headlamp as bare essentials. That said, is it any of my business to tell other groups to wear helmets and point out other safety errors they may be making? Obviously, if it's immediately life threatening, I'm going to pipe up, but otherwise, does it just make me an ass to hassle newbs?

Case in point: the other day my friends and I (all equipped as mentioned) did englestead hollow. None of us had been before but we were certainly prepared for what may be encountered. At the first rappel, we met a group of 4, all dynamic ropes, clad head to toe in denim shorts and tank tops, no helmets and, as we'd soon find out, little or no experience. We tried to play through but they managed to rig each rap seconds before I could get my ropes pulled, even after I politely asked. We tried to pass them on rap 1 by using an alternate anchor but to no avail. On rap 2, a girl in the group was having a freak-out trying to weight her device, and after some tearful panicking, and screaming at her brother, proceeded to get her hair caught mid rap. I rolled my eyes and bit my tongue, just when I was about to say something and prepare to rig a second rope and get her on her way, she cried that she got her hair free. Was it my place to give them a lecture? Maybe not since we didn't come across their bodies lower in the canyon.

Do people like this just rely on dumb luck to not get killed? Even though you use a helmet, you may not actually ever need it. Maybe you get lucky and never get rained on. Maybe no one in your group ever gets injured forcing you to hike out in the dark. So to what extent do you chastise people who are obviously I'll prepared?

Ethically, what responsibility do you have to make others aware of these sorts of mistakes?

Your thoughts...

[TommyBoy]

I guess it just depends on the group you run into. As one of those noobs I wouldn't mind someone pointing out any mistakes I make as long as they are polite about it, but some people are just asshats and cant take constructive criticism so if you do say something you run the risk of pissing them off and getting yelled at.

[Bootboy]

Heaven knows I was just a dumb kid with some gear getting in over my head at some point. I did take some criticism and those that were at least diplomatic about it certainly made a contribution to my knowledge. But I also ran afoul of some real doosh (douche) bags. Some lessons I simply learned the hard way.

The annoying thing is that one of the guys, the so called "leader" had done it before. Is he the one who needed the lecture? I think so. He rapped first every time and was inconsiderate enough of the others he was dragging along to not set a good example by wearing a helmet and not encouraging those in his party to do so.

Right now Englestead has 8' of ice and snow on the pothole ledge which runs water through rap 4. The water is high (neck deep on a short female) on rap 4 and crotch deep on rap 2 and certainly no more than 40 degrees. The first half of the canyon has large patchs of snow lingering.

Like I said, I guess they survived but it definitely had potential for danger for the ill-prepared.

[Renatomic808]

I personally would suggest safety issues... And if they get upset, I would politely mention that im not in the mood to rescue anyone or carry anydead bodies out.

[Scott P]

I adamantly forbid any cotton in potentially wet canyons and make sure everyone has a rain jacket and headlamp as bare essentials.

Off topic a little perhaps, but I almost never take a rain jacket canyoneering. You don’t want to be in a slot with a bad weather forecast anyway.

I always find it humorous that people (friends and family members) bring rain jackets on trips like the Black Box or Black Hole. I’m always thinking something like; uh,guys do you really think that we’re going to stay dry in here? :ne_nau:

[dustinsc]

I usually feel in over my head, at least a little bit, and I usually welcome advice. Maybe the approach is ask whether or not they want a few pointers before going ahead and giving them. I remember taking some people rappelling one time and some climber chided me for not backing up my anchor. I wanted to explain that the anchor easily hold more than a thousand pounds, and we'd have a lot more worries than a shifting anchor if we were putting more than about 300 pounds of force on the anchor, but instead I just smiled and said thanks. But I remember one time a certain Canyonman giving our group a whole bunch of pointers in a certain Zion canyon, which were very much appreciated (and probably life-saving).

And Scott P. I also think the idea of bringing in rain coats is kind of weird.

[Deathcricket]

I think you should say something. I always love it when "canyon masters" critique me about not bringing a raincoat and give me pearls of their wisdom. For instance I forgot to check my shoelaces once and this happened. Now I insist everyone in my group buy brand new Five Ten Canyoneers or they can't go, and chastise anyone I see in a canyon who doesn't have them on. Regular shoes have cotton in them, so I think this fits with your morals nicely. :2thumbs:

54213

[nat]

I think you should say something. I always love it when "canyon masters" critique me about not bringing a raincoat and give me pearls of their wisdom. For instance I forgot to check my shoelaces once and this happened. Now I insist everyone in my group buy brand new Five Ten Canyoneers or they can't go, and chastise anyone I see in a canyon who doesn't have them on. Regular shoes have cotton in them, so I think this fits with your morals nicely. :2thumbs:



:haha::haha:

[oldno7]

I think you should say something. I always love it when "canyon masters" critique me about not bringing a raincoat and give me pearls of their wisdom. For instance I forgot to check my shoelaces once and this happened. Now I insist everyone in my group buy brand new Five Ten Canyoneers or they can't go, and chastise anyone I see in a canyon who doesn't have them on. Regular shoes have cotton in them, so I think this fits with your morals nicely. :2thumbs:

54213

Maybe just me--But, it sure would be fun to be the guy who gets to cut the shoelace here....:haha:

[Brian in SLC]

Tough call and one I think about all the time...last night even. Was just in the climbing gym, but, guy following a route his gal had led and tied into the end of the rope she had led on. Going up, he crossed under the draws and kept gettin' clustered trying to unclip, not to mention, had he come off the steep wall, he'd have bowled through any passersby by swinging way out. I mentiioned to he and his partner that it was better to be tied into the other end of the rope and let it go at that, keeping well clear of them. They took it ok, didn't say much. Friendly later on, so...maybe they got it.

Its hard not to interject ego and all kinds of stuff when your telling folks something about what should be their business. Takes a special aplomb that I kinda don't have. Some do. I try to just be pleasant.

I'm probably not going to tell someone they should wear a helmet. I'll wear one (and sometimes not), they can see that. Ditto the cotton thing. I might start a discussion about it with them...especially if I think they don't have the experience to know better (like I do, and, sometimes, I still don't wear one, climbing or in a canyon and never skiing...).

I'll try to say something if I think they are seriously creating a situation where they or someone else is going to be in harm's way. But, I've also left an area too, knowing I could have said something, but, didn't.

There's a lot of different way to do things. Dynamic ropes, for instance. I'd never be critical of someone using them in a canyon. I climb way more than I canyon and rappel from them all the time, so... I might mention that I'd probably only consider using a "retired" dynamic rope in a canyon (ie, one I wouldn't lead on anymore). And, I prefer to have canyon specific ropes anyhow.

I dunno. I guess lead by the example of what works for you, be efficient, show some saavy, and maybe someone will notice. Or, you'll have a dialog, hopefully pleasant.

[Iceaxe]

Some of you might have heard my little know-it-all asshat story before.... but since I haven't told it for a few years.....

First time I ever climbed Grand Teton I saw this "noob" near the upper saddle.... this ass clown was dressed in a cotton t-shirt, shorts and gym shoes..... so I walk over decked out in my finest mountaineering know-it-all asshat gore-tex clothing, complete with helmet, to offer the noob some instruction on what real mountaineers wear and what gear they use.... I start to tell the noob he probably doesn't belong on The Grand.....

At that moment this noob in t-shirt and gym shoes turns around and looks at me..... it was Alex Lowe..... and for those that don't know.... Alex was probably my generation's finest all-around mountaineer.

Boy did I fell like a dumbass.....

:asshat:

[Brian in SLC]

And, if your timing was right, Shane, he'd just soloed a new route on the north face of the Grand, just left of the classic NF. A friend watched him motor up it (from Teewinot), fingertips in the snow, no ice tools, shorts, t-shirt, literally flying up the route, which, was all unknown terrain.

[jeremy1701]

As a noob, I think I would appreciate any friendly and politely delivered advice in just about any given situation. That's not to say I'd like someone to jump in and do it for me, but I'm always open to a few well intentioned comments. DunstinSC said it very well,
Maybe the approach is ask whether or not they want a few pointers before going ahead and giving them.

[Iceaxe]

If I see noob's messing up my standard approach is to say "I could show you a cool way to do that if you are interested?"

It's a good approach as it doesn't start out by implying.... hey dumbass.... and it makes it easy for the feller to accept or decline...

[Bootboy]

I only mentioned the dynamic rope thing as it was , along with many other things, an indication of inexperience. One of these things by itself I might not have even noticed.

The rain jacket thing I guess is an old habit I acquired in the mountains. I've litterally climbed in 70 degree sunshine and been snowed on 2 hours later in August in the Tetons. I suppose the desert environment is a little different. Though some in my group were glad they had it going down orderville simply for warmth after getting wet, I had a sweater for that.

As for the Alex Lowe incident, you made your assumption based purely in his appearance, you hadn't seem him climbing. I could have left this particular group's appearance go but the picture was a little more complete when the girl got her hair stuck and was double strand with no means of anyone getting to her to assist her. Others in her group just said, " uh, can you get it out?".

Like I said, it wasn't just one of these observations but the combination of so many that concerned me. I'm no canyon master and don't pretend to be but I sometimes chuckle at the seriousness with which some of the self-proclaimed gurus preach about safety and how if you're not wearing your five-tens and using a specific brand of rope, or come from a climbing background, and so on, that you have no business in a canyon and you're guaranteed to die within the first five minutes. I don't want to be that guy. I just want others to be safe. When you are safe and well prepared you'll likely have a better time any way.

[Iceaxe]

Others in her group just said, " uh, can you get it out?".

From what I read that approach worked just great in this incident. :lol8:

[rurri]

If I see noob's messing up my standard approach is to say "I could show you a cool way to do that if you are interested?"

It's a good approach as it doesn't start out by implying.... hey dumbass.... and it makes it easy for the feller to accept or decline...

Love this approach. Learned some great things out on the rocks from some older guys when I was younger, and I can remember that this is usually how it started.

I would not be eager to "chastise" or "lecture" another person or group. I'm thinking if you go over and "chastise" a group leader in front of his peers that he is taking out, all you will end up with is two pissed off groups in the canyon. Asking if they would like to learn how rig the rappel in order to solve this problem if it were to happen again would probably be better received and help them be a better canyoneer going forward.

Personally, I like doing the canyons without other groups around, so if it is not a popular canyon, I probably would have just held back, sat down for a snack and enjoyed the view for a while to let them get a good distance ahead.

[USofCS]

When it came to safety issues I would usually say something. For instance this weekend we were in Alcatraz and a group was passing us which was fine. We were at the second rappel and they were going to head down our set up. I noticed one of the ladies did t have their harness double backed so I kindly informed her that she would want to fix that. The response I got was " Oh I undid it for comfort after the first rappel.". A very weird response as a very weird thing to do if it was true, but either way she went down the next rappel with it doubled back so I didn't care.

[Brian in SLC]

I'm no canyon master and don't pretend to be but I sometimes chuckle at the seriousness with which some of the self-proclaimed gurus preach about safety and how if you're not wearing your five-tens and using a specific brand of rope, or come from a climbing background, and so on, that you have no business in a canyon and you're guaranteed to die within the first five minutes. I don't want to be that guy.

Sorry, but, I have to chuckle...


I always wear a helmet and require it for anyone who accompanies me into a canyon. I adamantly forbid any cotton in potentially wet canyons and make sure everyone has a rain jacket and headlamp as bare essentials.

[spinesnaper]

If I see noob's messing up my standard approach is to say "I could show you a cool way to do that if you are interested?"

It's a good approach as it doesn't start out by implying.... hey dumbass.... and it makes it easy for the feller to accept or decline...

Intervention is an ethical imperative but diplomacy and face saving makes the pill easier to swallow. As Tom says-don't frack up. But haven't we all done bonehead things in our outdoor careers?:nod:

Ken

[ratagonia]

When it came to safety issues I would usually say something. For instance this weekend we were in Alcatraz and a group was passing us which was fine. We were at the second rappel and they were going to head down our set up. I noticed one of the ladies did t have their harness double backed so I kindly informed her that she would want to fix that. The response I got was " Oh I undid it for comfort after the first rappel.". A very weird response as a very weird thing to do if it was true, but either way she went down the next rappel with it doubled back so I didn't care.

Hey!

I did that, first rappel, Monday's canyon. Lynn Hill setup: started putting harness on, got distracted. Went last, mostly downclimbed it, the anchor was "light", so I was mostly vertical. Taking the rope out, I noticed my harness was not fully buckled. YIKES!!!

Alpine Bod has certain advantages...

Tom

[Bootboy]

Sorry, but, I have to chuckle...

You're taking what I said out of context. I don't preach these things to people on the Internet. And I don't go around telling everyone their business. I only require it of the people in my groups because I know they have the gear and, as conceited as it may sound, they are my liability. If they get hurt it becomes my problem. If anyone in another group gets hurt, it really only affects me as much as I let it.

[Don]

After my own noobs in-over-their-heads incident (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35864-Bogleyfest-Friday-Englestead-The-Incident) in Englestead if I came across something that seemed unsafe I would at least ask some follow up questions...

[Brian in SLC]

You're taking what I said out of context. I don't preach these things to people on the Internet. And I don't go around telling everyone their business. I only require it of the people in my groups because I know they have the gear and, as conceited as it may sound, they are my liability. If they get hurt it becomes my problem. If anyone in another group gets hurt, it really only affects me as much as I let it.

I don't think its really out of context at all. You kinda are preaching. Your the OP on this issue. Comments about dynamic ropes, cotton clothes, I require this and that... Its a form of preaching and...here, on the 'net.

Not sayin' its a bad thing. Just at odds with some of your persepective maybe.

I absolutely feel responsibilty towards folks I recreate with. Sure. But, liable? If someone forgot their helmet (uhhh, me). I'd offer up mine and go without rather than say, hey, you can't go. That additional risk is acceptable to me. I might be more aware and manage it better, hopefully.

And, in hot weather, give me cotton. A wet cotton t-shirt dries out slower and keeps me cooler longer. Hot at night? Give me a thin cotton sheet to sleep in.

And, if I ran into folks in a canyon who needed assistance, I'd pitch in. Whether they were in my group, newbs, or not.

I guess we're all trying to figure out whether or not to tell some folks their business...me included. I probably need charm school...

Cheers.

[ratagonia]

I don't think its really out of context at all. You kinda are preaching. Your the OP on this issue. Comments about dynamic ropes, cotton clothes, I require this and that... Its a form of preaching and...here, on the 'net.

Not sayin' its a bad thing. Just at odds with some of your persepective maybe.

I absolutely feel responsibilty towards folks I recreate with. Sure. But, liable? If someone forgot their helmet (uhhh, me). I'd offer up mine and go without rather than say, hey, you can't go. That additional risk is acceptable to me. I might be more aware and manage it better, hopefully.

And, in hot weather, give me cotton. A wet cotton t-shirt dries out slower and keeps me cooler longer. Hot at night? Give me a thin cotton sheet to sleep in.

And, if I ran into folks in a canyon who needed assistance, I'd pitch in. Whether they were in my group, newbs, or not.

I guess we're all trying to figure out whether or not to tell some folks their business...me included. I probably need charm school...

Cheers.

Yeah, what he said.

There are times in intervene. There are times to gently offer some coaching. There are times to grimace and keep your mouth shut. There are times to run away. yada yada... the key is having the wisdom to be able to tell the difference.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Yeah, what he said.

There are times in intervene. There are times to gently offer some coaching. There are times to grimace and keep your mouth shut. There are times to run away. yada yada... the key is having the wisdom to be able to tell the difference.

X2