Fiddlestix Anchors

[AJ]

So I've run across quite a few mentions of Fiddlestix anchors lately. I know the concept, releasable knot with a bar holding it together. Rap down, pull the bar, knot comes apart and voila, no rope pull; similar concept to omni-sling.

Early conversations were discussing what to use for the bar (wooden dowel, metal bar, etc) as well as just using something similar to an overhand stone, or using closer to a figure 8 stone knot. Was wondering if folks would shed light on what they have been using and what they have seen work and not work?

Pictures especially helpful, especially regarding the knot being tied...

Note: I've seen these two posts:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62536-How-Do-You-Stein
and
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62952-Inferno&highlight=fiddlestick

However, this is just showing the strand isolation method of the stein, which I've used a fair bit. The second post talks about what folks have been using for the block. Thought it would be good to have a comprehensive discussion on what folks are using for the releasable version, and maybe tips on what folks have found that work and don't work. (Like Tom eluding to using the upward knots, which I'll have to play with to see why.) Interested to see what else folks have learned, as it seems those anchors are getting more used recently. Always looking to learn what folks are
using; to possibly add another tool to the toolbox...


Thanks for any info,
A.J.

[oldno7]

Hi AJ, heres a pic last week in Mystery.

Quite a bit of use in canyons lately, the best way to get a consistant release is the upward stein!!! Not an upward overhand.

Have used mostly on 8mm lines but in testing last week I used Toms old 9mm steel cable line. Known for it's lack of having a nice hand. We had it also release quite easily.

While your looking at pictures and thinking they only show an isolation technique, in reality you are not able to see that one end of stein is a 2-3' tail only, not another rap line. Hope that helps some.

I still use and sometimes prefer my own variation on the omni sling method, only I use webbing.

[oldno7]

As an addendum--I really trust this system to not pre-release but as good practice, and as seen in this pic--back up is a wise choice for all but the last.

[ratagonia]

We've been dialing in the material to figure out what will work best. The wood
when it gets wet has too much friction - perhaps with the right finish, it would
be good, but... The 1/2" Easton pole segments works for me (Tom), but it is
quite slippery, and other people find it spooky. The recycled sail battens
Brendan is using seem to have the correct balance of slickness and stick, and
they do not change properties when wet, and don't hurt too bad when they nail
you from 60 feet.

So, that is the delay in the release of the "product". My tumble also makes me a
bit more cautious about putting things out there, as I also thought the Water
Trap was pretty close to ready to go. I'm thinking about releasing the
"information" version rather than the "product" version, though there is
considerable liability associated with that, too.

Tom

[AJ]

Thanks Tom and oldno7.

On one side being a short tail - Duh. I guess I should get more than a few hours of sleep per night. ;)

oldno7: Would love to hear more about the webbing version of the omnisling if you are willing to share...

Tom: I understand your hesitation, and hope you are all healed now. (Thought I saw you back to playing; so think so...)


Thanks again,
A.J.

[Summit2Sea]

recycled sail battens


Ahhh, that's the material used for the toggle... A friend of mine had one of the batten toggles that he showed when using the releasable stone knot; it worked pretty nice and did seem to have a good balance of slickness and stick... I wasn't sure what type of material it was so I questioned him on whether or not it would carry the load exerted on it during a rappel, especially if it was a very large person as some of my friends are... :0) and/or if there was a lot of bouncing on the line during the rappel... I guess sail battens have a pretty descent breaking strength and don't weigh much... Thanks for the post, Tom... :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Ahhh, that's the material used for the toggle... A friend of mine had one of the batten toggles that he showed when using the releasable stone knot; it worked pretty nice and did seem to have a good balance of slickness and stick... I wasn't sure what type of material it was so I questioned him on whether or not it would carry the load exerted on it during a rappel, especially if it was a very large person as some of my friends are... :0) and/or if there was a lot of bouncing on the line during the rappel... I guess sail battens have a pretty descent breaking strength and don't weigh much... Thanks for the post, Tom... :2thumbs:

The fiddlestick does not actually "carry the load". There is a bending force applied to the stick that is fairly low. How low? Well, I remember being able to do this sort of physics/mechanics problem, but it has been many years since then. Perhaps a recent E-school graduate could run the equations.

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

Hi AJ, heres a pic last week in Mystery.

Quite a bit of use in canyons lately, the best way to get a consistant release is the upward stein!!! Not an upward overhand.

Have used mostly on 8mm lines but in testing last week I used Toms old 9mm steel cable line. Known for it's lack of having a nice hand. We had it also release quite easily.

While your looking at pictures and thinking they only show an isolation technique, in reality you are not able to see that one end of stein is a 2-3' tail only, not another rap line. Hope that helps some.

I still use and sometimes prefer my own variation on the omni sling method, only I use webbing.

So, do you mean that a fiddlestick works better on a rope with more hand or less hand?

[oldno7]

So, do you mean that a fiddlestick works better on a rope with more hand or less hand?

If done properly--It shouldn't matter.........

But either require a backup.

[moab mark]

Here is the one I have been playing with A.J. It is a 1/2 inch aluminum rod with a hole drilled for a keeper to go on the other side. The keeper is tied into the pull side to release prior to pulling the tubing out. Has the possiblility of knocking you silly on the way down. Yea I know need to clean up my work bench.

Mark

[Summit2Sea]

Here is the one I have been playing with A.J. It is a 1/2 inch aluminum rod with a hole drilled for a keeper to go on the other side. The keeper is tied into the pull side to release prior to pulling the tubing out. Has the possiblility of knocking you silly on the way down. Yea I know need to clean up my work bench.

Mark

Very cool... "Nice" release design!!! Is the keeper you're using a cotter pin/hairpin??? :0)

[moab mark]

Yes it is a keeper like you use on the hitch of a truck just smaller diameter.

[ratagonia]

I have added the Stone Knot to the new-new Tech Tips on the Canyoneering USA website...

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com/techtips/the-stone-knot-a-canyoneering-secret-weapon/

Tom

[canyoncaver]

Would you guys care to explain the benefits/reasons for using a fiddlestick? Are we talking tree bark conservation and rope groove prevention? That's all I've come up with. Feel free to answer with some variation of "well, if you don't know then you shouldn't be thinking about using one. Stick to canyons like Yankee Doodle and the Narrows, noob."

More helpful though would be discussion on situations where you think the fiddlestick is superior to other methods and why. Thanks.

[ghawk]

I'm thinking of one of those crappy pulls where it can get stuck while you're pulling the mess through. With the fiddlestick you just pull it out and the whole thing drops down. Saves your rope from wear and the canyon from grooves as well. Cliff and I are going to play around with it a bit this weekend but I haven't actually used it yet. So take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

[hank moon]

Having never used a fiddlestick, I am curious: what advantages does it have over block/pull cord combo? Not "in theory" but in practice. Can anyone who has used it extensively give a short list of real advantages (not imagined ones) over block/pull cord?

[canyoncaver]

Yeah, what Hank said.

[ratagonia]

Big advantages of a Fiddlestick Anchor

1. Can use anchors you would not otherwise consider. Things back from the edge quite a ways, things that are really big.
2. You don't leave webbing behind.
- 2a. Leaving crap in canyons is leaving crap in canyons. Minimizing the crap we leave in canyons is a good thing.
- 2b. Not leaving webbing in canyons means you don't need to bring as much webbing on explorations as you used to, and manage the gradual diminishment of that webbing.
3. Not pulling the rope through tends to minimize rope grooves.
4. Since you are not pulling a rope through, you can tie ropes together to rappel with. In some cases this means you can build fewer anchors.
5. Leaving a canyon with nothing in it means the next party can also have a first-descent experience.
6. It is often fast and easy.

Tom :moses:

[Scott Card]

Any one tried PVC? Light and strong and cheap. Too sticky?

[ratagonia]

In our experiments, we've noticed a few things:

1. smaller diameter better - has less stick.
2. wood - changes when wet...
3. aluminum pole tubing may be too slippery. A little spooky.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Hmmm. May have to snip off some sprinkler pipe and see what happens.

[hank moon]

Tom, thanks for the details. Looking forward to trying it out sometime.

[ilipichicuma]

Gavin and I tested a piece of half-inch PVC in my garage on Friday. It was initially too slippery but after we made it rougher with some sandpaper it was perfect! Pulled out great when not weighted but stayed put when weighted. We're just not sure if it will stay rough or if we'd have to take sandpaper to it every few uses.

[Scott Card]

We're just not sure if it will stay rough or if we'd have to take sandpaper to it every few uses.This will not be a problem. In most canyons, you have 300 foot vertical sheets of sand paper down the whole canyon. :haha:

[Bootboy]

The pics posted in this thread show a setup that still requires pulling, I want to see pics of someone's setup that releases the whole thing at the anchor. I have a setup I've been toying with which involves an aluminum rap ring and a 5"x1/2 " fiberglass rod. Before I post pics I way to see others pictures.

[moab mark]

One of the tails is short, only a foot past the stein knot. You just can't see this in the pictures.

[moab mark]

Gavin and I tested a piece of half-inch PVC in my garage on Friday. It was initially too slippery but after we made it rougher with some sandpaper it was perfect! Pulled out great when not weighted but stayed put when weighted. We're just not sure if it will stay rough or if we'd have to take sandpaper to it every few uses.
Drill a hole thru the other end and put a keeper thru the hole. See my above picture, works great and much safer.:nod:

[ghawk]

Drill a hole thru the other end and put a keeper thru the hole. See my above picture, works great and much safer.:nod:

Yeah, that's a good idea. We'll play with that next. :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Yeah, that's a good idea. We'll play with that next. :2thumbs:

Using it in the field, it is not at all clear that a "keeper" or "safety" is desirable. Brendan's Mark I have a safety, and we have gone to not using it.

Tom

[moab mark]

How long is Brendan's sail baton?

[ratagonia]

How long is Brendan's sail baton?

Six to eight inches.

T

[MrAdam]

Using it in the field, it is not at all clear that a "keeper" or "safety" is desirable. Brendan's Mark I have a safety, and we have gone to not using it.

Tom

Is a friction hitch, looks like a kleimhiest in the pics, the preferred back up for all but the last man at risk? Are there any other back up techniques being used?

[ratagonia]

Generally, we put a carabiner in the knot for all but the last person, essentially Stoning the Knot, though with one short end. Mainly because the knot tightens around the stick, making the pull difficult. Thus, it is desirable to have the knot loosened before the last person rappels, so it only has one person's tightening on it before the pull.

Of course, if the fiddle-sticked anchor is questionable, then it should be backed up (or a better choice made).

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

We just biner block and then I stone it when I go. Have only used it a couple of times in the real world but the concept is slick. IMO the best part is how much faster you can move along due to the fact that you start bagging both ropes immediately. It can create a spaghetti mess if the landing area is small due to two ropes piling up on top of each other. You also can drop two bags, one for pull one for rappel and do not have to bag any additional rope then what is needed.

Mark

[ratagonia]

The pics posted in this thread show a setup that still requires pulling, I want to see pics of someone's setup that releases the whole thing at the anchor. I have a setup I've been toying with which involves an aluminum rap ring and a 5"x1/2 " fiberglass rod. Before I post pics I way to see others pictures.

Not sure it was clear, Bootboy. When doing the stone, one end of the rope is short. Once the fiddlestick is pulled, the short section of the rope just needs to be pulled out from around the object.

You can see this on the last picture on this page:

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com/techtips/the-stone-knot-a-canyoneering-secret-weapon/

Tom

[ratagonia]

On a similar note, I just transferred the Omnisling writeup to the new blog:

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com/techtips/ghosting-the-omnisling/

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

We experimented the other day and had all 5 people rap on the stone with a wooden dowel, it tightened considerably(as expected) it pulled but was indeed difficult.
Last person certainly needs to re-dress the hitch.

[ilipichicuma]

I'll add another thumbs-up for these things. My friends and I just got back from Zion, where we used my PVC fiddlestick several times, both in wet and dry conditions. It worked awesome every time and we are converted. Not the best for every situation, but definitely a great ghosting technique!

[Scott Card]

PVC--You are welcome. :haha:

[canyondevil]

I too have been experimenting with the PVC version and am really sold. I started with 3/4" and now have gone to 1/2" Sch 40. Some course grit sandpaper makes it very sticky.

I did have one little oops with it a couple weeks ago... I set up the FS on the first bypass rap into Egypt 2 which is about 50'. This was the third time on the trip that we used this particular FS. The design of this stick had a cap on the end of the pipe so that the pull cord would be coming out the end of the pipe and not the side, making it easier to pull in sketchy situations. This is what it looked like before I was the last to rap in:


54559


Once the three of us rapped in, I went to pull the FS out. Apparently I forgot to glue the damn thing together. So, all that came down was the cap, and the actual stick portion stayed in the knot. So there we are with our only rope stuck. Because I could not see the condition of the FS, I was not going to jug back up it. We decided our best option to head down canyon with what gear we had. Turns out that rapping on doubled 6mm Imlay pullcord stuffed in the same side of an ATC works pretty good in an emergency. We finished teh E2/E3 loop and retrieved the rope on the way out. Below is what it looked like when we found it. Really stupid mistake on my part, but it worked out OK. Needless to say, my design now does not have two pieces glued (or not glued) together.

54578

[ratagonia]

Glue on PVC works really well.

When used.

Tom

[darkmatter]

Glue on PVC works really well.

When used.

Tom

Just be sure it's proper PVC cement and not some random glue. PVC cement is PVC dissolved in a solvent. It creates an all-PVC bond, no interfaces to some other material. Thus the term "solvent welding".

[oldno7]

:haha::haha::haha:--only canyoneers, could come up with 177 different ways to--"Make a Stick" :haha::haha::haha:

[Candace66]

I'm finding all this technical stuff so interesting, I might have to start canyoneering just so I can experience it in person!! :haha:

[PG Rob]

I have field tested several options as a fiddlestick, and have settled on a Rubbermaid refrigerator coil brush handle. I bought it at Ace Hardware for $7. It is a perfect diameter, about right friction, wont kill you on the way down, won't expand when wet, and has a pre-drilled hole. I am concerned that at some point the hole could be blown out. It is about 14 inches long, but could easily be trimmed down if desired. Has anyone found anything else besides sail batten, PVC or metal that they like?
55316
55317
55318

[RAM]

Sonny Lawrence and friends recently did some extensive testing and analysis of the Fiddlestick and knots, including pictures. Interesting stuff. It can be found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/64998

[Bootboy]

I have field tested several options as a fiddlestick, and have settled on a Rubbermaid refrigerator coil brush handle. I bought it at Ace Hardware for $7. It is a perfect diameter, about right friction, wont kill you on the way down, won't expand when wet, and has a pre-drilled hole. I am concerned that at some point the hole could be blown out. It is about 14 inches long, but could easily be trimmed down if desired. Has anyone found anything else besides sail batten, PVC or metal that they like?
55316
55317
55318

I've been using a section of a carbon fiber ski pole with a wooden dowel snugly fitted inside. No pic handy but it's strong, light, and durable.

[Brian in SLC]

If folks don't belong to the canyons group, I'll repost here:


Posted by Sonny on the canyons yahoo group:

Paul Stovall, Mark Binder, Trevor Walton and I did some preliminary testing on
releasable anchors variously referred to as Fiddlestick, J Rods, toggles and
pins which acted in concert with a variant of the Stein hitch. It should be
noted that only a few iterations of a particular system were run. Hence one
cannot make a statistical evaluation of the results. Rather, the results show a
trend. Such information would then be used to guide further testing. There are
many confounding parameters such as new vs. old rope, clean vs. dirty rope, wet
vs. dry rope, rope diameter, rope material, rope construction, pin construction,
pin shape, pin diameter, pin coating. Also note that such anchors should be
considered as advanced. They require a lot of practice in a safe environment
before being used in canyons.

For the test we used Imlay Canyon rope, size 9 mm and 8 mm. We used 6 pins:
nylon 6 tapered, HDPE, aluminum, oak, piton and nylon 6 straight. Paul made the
"nylon 6 tapered" by drilling a hole through the center and tapering it slightly
from the center to the ends. That gave it a waist. The oak has been used in
canyons over the past few years as a pin for a similar system. It originally was
coated with polyurethane which is partially rubbed off. The piton is from the
70s. Paul made a pin out of aluminum and flattened the end to attach a cord to.
The HDPE material was cut as a flat piece. All pins ranged in length from 4 to
6 inches. Please see photographs.

The "anchor" was a rapide suspended in air. The rope being tested was passed
through it to simulate going around an object such as a rock or tree. A fifty
(50) pound weight was suspended in air on a tether such that when the system
released, it would not hit the ground. That weight was chosen to simulate the
forces an anchor would see if an adult was hanging on a rope that had a lot of
friction where it touched the rock. So for example on a particular rappel the
force on an anchor from a 180 pound person might only be 50 pounds. In addition,
the weight was increased to 100 pounds and later 150 pounds. This simulated
increasingly less friction of rope over rock.

Most of the testing was done with the pull down rope being less than or equal to
15 degrees from the rappel rope. That was to simulate both ropes leaving the
anchor roughly together. This is referred to as "vertical." One test was run
with the pull down rope perpendicular to the rappel rope. This is referred to as
"horizontal."

The Stein used was always tied from an overhand, not a figure eight. It was tied
in the "up" position, i.e., the doubled rope was looped. The loop was then
flipped toward the anchor in order to pull through a bite for the pin to be
placed under. As the testing progressed, it was realized that there was a trend
for the release force related to how the pin was placed in the Stein. The Stein
is asymmetrical with respect to the bite of rope pulled through (that the pin
will be placed under). One can describe it in terms of which side the rappel
rope is aligned with. Please see photograph for an example. Consequently as the
test progressed, notation was made as to if the pin was inserted on the same or
opposite side as the rappel rope. This is called "Stein-pin relation." Also,
depending on how the Stein is tied, the rappel rope can be just above the pin
(hence touching it) or it can be above the tail's loop. A distinction was then
made as to the rappel rope being "high" or "low." This is called "Rap loop
relation." See photograph.

The force needed to release the pin was measured with a dynamometer held (and
then caught) by the person testing.
Photographs in our Yahoo pictures at: http://tinyurl.com/cl3n26b
Spreadsheet at: our Yahoo files named stein.xls
Video at: <http://vimeo.com/43748768>


Trends
1) If more weight was used to simulate the person on rappel, much more force was
needed to release the pin.
2) Release forces roughly averaged for the following Stein-pin configurations:
opposite/high 20 lbs
opposite/low 23 lbs
same/high 29 lbs
same/low 34 lbs
3) Little difference was seen between 9 mm and 8 mm rope.
4) Different pin materials behaved differently with aluminum requiring the
highest average release force and nylon the lowest.

Implications
1) If indeed there is significant difference in release force depending on the
Stein configuration chosen, this might be useful at a particular rappel. So for
example, if in the judgment of the canyon team, the pull down is going to be
difficult, the configuration of opposite/high would be chosen due to its lower
release force. Conversely if the pull cord was being influenced by moving water,
the Stein configuration of same/low would be chosen in order to minimize the
likelihood of a premature release with the last person still on rappel.
2) Never allow the last person to deploy the pull cord from a pack upon rappel.
The release forces are in a range that could easily be obtained with deadly
consequences.
3) Keep your full weight on this system while on rappel until you are on the
ground.
4) Depending on the Stein configuration, two pins of different materials, say
steel vs. nylon, may be made to release at similar forces.

[Bootboy]

Anywho... Here's my latest incarnation. I l use the tapered section of an aluminum ski pole (haven't test the strength yet, but the taper makes it slick) and a locking clove hitch which will not loosen when unweighted. It's nice because the fiddlestick remains in line with the rope unlike with the stone knot which orients the stick perpendicular, and from what I've read in this forum and others, is one problem with the stone. The locking clove unfurls just like a normal clove hitch when the stick is pulled. I've only played with this in the yard and will do some refining.
http://img.tapatalk.com/a693580f-ebe1-47da.jpg

[ratagonia]

Anywho... Here's my latest incarnation. I l use the tapered section of an aluminum ski pole (haven't test the strength yet, but the taper makes it slick) and a locking clove hitch which will not loosen when unweighted. It's nice because the fiddlestick remains in line with the rope unlike with the stone knot which orients the stick perpendicular, and from what I've read in this forum and others, is one problem with the stone. The locking clove unfurls just like a normal clove hitch when the stick is pulled. I've only played with this in the yard and will do some refining.


I think you are missing the point.

A fiddlestick leaves NOTHING behind. Looks like you are leaving a sling with a ring, which is about half of the story.

Tom

[tcmault]

So how exactly do you leave nothing behind? Are you just wrapping rope around something? Are you tieing the rope to a Rapide on webbing, putting the tail through the other rapide and then just doing the fiddlestix furhter down the line?

[ratagonia]

So how exactly do you leave nothing behind? Are you just wrapping rope around something? Are you tieing the rope to a Rapide on webbing, putting the pull side through the other rapide and then using the tail and pull side further down to tie the Fiddlestix knot?

Just wrapping the rope around something.

With that in mind, you might want to go back and read the thread from the beginning.

Tom

[Bootboy]

Looks like I'm not the only one

http://img.tapatalk.com/c6e4d995-e4cb-581d.jpg

The way that I demonstrated still maintains several advantages over having to pull the whole rope. Does it not? Most of the canyons I do have existing anchors. My method helps to minimize impact (rope grooves in rock); makes for faster, cleaner pulls, and allows me to carry less gear. Do these have no merit of themselves if webbing is left?

Boots

[ratagonia]

Looks like I'm not the only one



The way that I demonstrated still maintains several advantages over having to pull the whole rope. Does it not? Most of the canyons I do have existing anchors. My method helps to minimize impact (rope grooves in rock); makes for faster, cleaner pulls, and allows me to carry less gear. Do these have no merit of themselves if webbing is left?

Boots

It has considerable merit, mostly in minimizing rope grooves. As I said, that is about half of it.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I see this mostly as a really great way to kill yourself. But, at least you guys are puttin' some thought in it.

Take something safe like rappelling, and, make it as sketchy as you can...what do you get? Canyoneering...

[Iceaxe]

I see this mostly as a really great way to kill yourself. But, at least you guys are puttin' some though in it.

x2

[Summit2Sea]

I have a question: Outside of having to run the rope through a rapide or rap ring or carrying (2) 100' ropes in lieu of a 200' rope for a 90' rappel for example, what advantage(s) would the fiddlestix have over the CEM or Macrame? I can see maybe a smoother disconnect at the anchor which would be nice if you're rappelling into a slot or area where you can't step back to pull the rope. Just looking for other ideas & opinions on advantages to help justify carrying more gear.

[ratagonia]

Big advantages of a Fiddlestick Anchor

1. Can use anchors you would not otherwise consider. Things back from the edge quite a ways, things that are really big.
2. You don't leave webbing behind.
- 2a. Leaving crap in canyons is leaving crap in canyons. Minimizing the crap we leave in canyons is a good thing.
- 2b. Not leaving webbing in canyons means you don't need to bring as much webbing on explorations as you used to, and manage the gradual diminishment of that webbing.
3. Not pulling the rope through tends to minimize rope grooves.
4. Since you are not pulling a rope through, you can tie ropes together to rappel with. In some cases this means you can build fewer anchors.
5. Leaving a canyon with nothing in it means the next party can also have a first-descent experience.
6. It is often fast and easy.

Tom :moses:

Bump.

:moses:

[oldno7]

I have a question: Outside of having to run the rope through a rapide or rap ring or carrying (2) 100' ropes in lieu of a 200' rope for a 90' rappel for example, what advantage(s) would the fiddlestix have over the CEM or Macrame? I can see maybe a smoother disconnect at the anchor which would be nice if you're rappelling into a slot or area where you can't step back to pull the rope. Just looking for other ideas & opinions on advantages to help justify carrying more gear.

The fiddlestick method is a releasable system, there are many.
choosing the right one for any particular application is the canyoneers job.(mostly what you feel comfortable with)
Some involve more hardware some less.......
I never use a cem but have considerable rope time on a macrame as well as a couple others, including a fiddlestick.

[ratagonia]

I have a question: Outside of having to run the rope through a rapide or rap ring or carrying (2) 100' ropes in lieu of a 200' rope for a 90' rappel for example, what advantage(s) would the fiddlestix have over the CEM or Macrame? I can see maybe a smoother disconnect at the anchor which would be nice if you're rappelling into a slot or area where you can't step back to pull the rope. Just looking for other ideas & opinions on advantages to help justify carrying more gear.

I found the macrame to be unreliable. It would get stuck. The release depends on the friction properties of the rope, which vary from rope to rope and from time to time.

The FiddleStick was developed to create a robust, reliable, non-pull-through, no-trash system. I like that it is turning into a craft project, rather than a product that I would be obliged to produce. Some people will have no use for it - I consider it an esoteric piece of equipment / technique that should probably not become used generally.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

...what advantage(s) would the fiddlestix have over the CEM or Macrame?

CEM?

[oldno7]

I found the macrame to be unreliable. It would get stuck. The release depends on the friction properties of the rope, which vary from rope to rope and from time to time.




Never had a problem with a macrame holding or releasing. What I have found, however, is macrame's tied incorrectly by several people.
I truly believe they work well when tied proper. I can't help but think that Sonny tied his wrong when he tried to kill himself several years ago.

I will qualify my statement by adding, I mostly use the macrame on shorter drops, 40'-.
I feel much more warm and fuzzy, using a fiddlestick/Kurt releasable type system on longer drops.

[Iceaxe]

I will qualify my statement by adding, I mostly use the macrame on shorter drops, 40'-.

I always find it interesting when folks will use an anchor or method for a 40' drop and not a 200' drop.... to me the anchor is either good or it's not.... I try not to let height play a big part in my decision making.

[oldno7]

I always find it interesting when folks will use an anchor or method for a 40' drop and not a 200' drop.... to me the anchor is either good or it's not.... I try not to let height play a big part in my decision making.

So--let me ask you this...........
I've seen several instances where you have chosen to rap of a hook. Right?
So why don't you only use a hook for all your anchors?
Should be the same from 10'-1000', right?

[sonnylawrence]

.

55532 (with photos)


CEM stand for "Canyones En Mexico" (forgive my spelling). It is a complex hitch using sheep shank style. Some people have simplified it by not tying the backup and instead using three sheep shanks. Below is a copy of the description.


CEM Knot The Mexican recoverable anchor, by ChanockThis document I made with the intent to disclose more technical and detailed features and proper preparation of the knot CEM, as for many who have had the opportunity to see the field application of the knot seems to be too many steps and very complex but is relatively simple and easy to learn to do without errors ... Within this document you will find the application of the lump in one of the most common scenarios in the world of adventure and sports verticals: Pin to a tree for a rappel rope and then recover easily without leaving your computer or use a extra material than our rope.The behavior of this node varies by the characteristics of the string to be used either by diameter, be dynamic or static even in the same condition as found (wet abarrada, dirty or dry) and we should consider these factors when when applying the knot. This type of harnesses recoverable are referred to as "techniques of fortune", and that is why I invite you to be installed and used by the responsible member of the group, you know and have full experience in the installation of the knot and being used only for the last to do the rappel.I invite you to meet, learn and use ...CONTENT1. Background of the knot CEM 2. Development of EMC knot 3. Observations on rappel 4. Recovery of the rope5. Observations on the back 6. Overview of the knot 7. CEM knot strength CreditsWARNING: It would be unwise to descend a canyon only interpreting the data contained in this document and inexperienced previa.cañonismo.com not responsible for any incidents arising from the interpretation of the data.BACKGROUND OF THE KNOT CEMSince I was in the Scouts in the group 16 Grecos clan in the province Jalisco (1989), I always present the mystery of power "overthrow" the rope without touching it climbing over the surface of the rock to the top of the rock or wall and the risk of rubbing off so that no matter what harm he suffered rope definitely not succeed to recover.In 2005 my friends and fellow of the Association, CEM / AC Cannons in Mexico, Jose "Pepe" Navarro and Agustin Lizarraga, having taken their first years of canyoneering with ACA / American Canyoneering Association, talked about some techniques I learned to retrieve the rope after a rappel done, a situation that inspired me to learn and start using these harnesses of fortune, this being sparking in me the idea of developing "A recoverable harness that offers solutions for both alternatives com canyon caving, climbing and vertical work. " With the experience already gained with other anchors recovered, I had to do some tests with the knot in their infancy and with my fraternity brothers every experience with my knots resulted: more information and disadvantages, so making adjustments was very important because during the testing process was raised in an accident with a "Fetus knot", a situation which led to a detailed analysis of the failure and subsequent resolution of them resulting in CEM knot, it was later adopted above other good knots for my fellow gunners, having its official launch at the International Meeting of ACA canyoneering 2006 in Sierra de Quila, Jalisco, Mexico, where he was welcomed by the gunboat community, especially by my friend William "Sonny" Lawrence. CEM ELABORACIÓND THE KNOT To start with the first phase of the node will need to follow these first four steps, which are performed sequentially and respecting each of the lines of work (Line line rappel and recovery).After completion of first phase of the knot pa we will do what is commonly known as "lock" system that makes the knot CEM is solid and does not collapse.Once the knot is of utmost importance to make sure it is well made and has no error in the preparation, this should be visually and only with practice and repetition of the knot, we recommend using this knot spaces checked prior to putting it into practice in a real scenario that could endanger your physical safety. OBSERVATIONS ON RAPPELOnce properly installed the knot we must take into account the following observations:- As extra insurance you can install a hook on the last loop. (In order not to collapse the node fails over to pull the line of recovery) - Perform the decline rectilinearly and uniformly. (To avoid friction on the rope as we descend in single rope) - Keep the tension on the rappel line to steady the knot. (Although it does not undo the knot, the knot is important to continue to work well) - Do not pull the retrieval line as we descend. (It is difficult to collapse the knot when you have tension on the rappel line, but not impossible) RECOVERY OF THE ROPE The recovery of the rope with the knot CEM is quite simple because we just have to pull the retrieval line. In case that when we do not have to retrieve it the knot will be easy to identify the safe release of the five that has the knot through the contact with the rope (It's very notorious secure the release of each).The steps are sequential release and directly dependent on the recovery line.In tests at EMF knot in a controlled environment have been shown to load on the rappel line, you can try to collapse the node and even having released the first safe, the system remains completely collapse ... (This scenario was conducted in 2007 by EMC / Guns in Mexico Association BC). NOTES TO RECOVER Once the rappel we take into account the following observations to take back the string:- Release the tension on the rappel line. (To avoid counterbalance and tighten the knot on the memento to recover) - Pull the line evenly recovery. (The time to be pulling the rope will feel the release of insurance) - Take into account that the string section that will be rolled rope. (We leave the two parallel lines and without obstacles between them to make the rebate) - Keep away from likely spot where you can drop the rope (Regardless of the length of our rope, we avoid the shock of it) OVERVIEW OF THE KNOT It is important before using any retrieval system, we have the dedication to learn how to make it, install it and retrieve it in a controlled environment in order to carry it out abroad. The knot EMC has some general aspects that must be taken into account to identify when well done or which follow:- "Cotes twins" (Part fundamental essence of CEM knot, are made with the rappel line "A") - "The Lock" (Section of insurance that prevents the collapse of the "B") - Identification of the lines (We identify the rappel line "C" recovery line "D") - Additional Security (Carabiner prevents the collapse of the knot, the last to fall to remove "E") KNOT STRENGTH CEM Extract from email I sent William "Sonny" Lawrence with the results of the dynamometer endurance test that was performed to knot the EMC in May 2007. "Manuel is impressive, I have the intention of using it, Jason Martinez, Paul Stovall and me, we test the Knot CEM. Using a rope EasyBend 9mm PMI. The rope was suspended in the air from the branch of a tree, and was loaded with a weight of 0.778kN (175.0 pounds = 79.3 kg) The knot was tied to a large pear-shaped maillon, the system was strained as if a person was in line rappel line while the recovery was slowly strained in the order of steps for the release of EMC Knot, the first insurance freed 0,815 kN (183.2 pounds = 83.0 kg), the second was released less safe of that value and was not registered on the machine, the safe third was released to 0.75 kN (168.6 pounds = 76.4 kg), the safe room was released at 1.25 kN (281.0 pounds = 127.4 kg), the fifth insurance is released to 1.28 kN (287.7 pounds = 130.4 kg) subsequently left the anchor rope dropping the weight. " William "Sonny" Lawrence ACA member in California, USA canyonear@gmail.comCREDITSThis document is based on: THE KNOT CEM. The Mexican recoverable anchor. . PDF.

[Iceaxe]

So--let me ask you this...........
I've seen several instances where you have chosen to rap of a hook. Right?
So why don't you only use a hook for all your anchors?
Should be the same from 10'-1000', right?

Apples and oranges....

If I use a hook the height of the rap makes liitle difference to me. I have done several 200' raps from a hook.... but normally a hook is not the simpliest method, and I nearly always choose the simpliest method when presented with different options.

But if you want to carry this out to its conclusion..... I would not do a 40' rap from a hook that I would not do at 200'. Ditto macreme, sandtrap, fiddlestick, ect.... but some folks will, and I fail to understand their reasoning.

:cool2:

[oldno7]

Apples and oranges....

If I use a hook the height of the rap makes liitle difference to me. I have done several 200' raps from a hook.... but normally a hook is not the simpliest method, and I nearly always choose the simpliest method when presented with different options.

But if you want to carry this out to its conclusion..... I would not do a 40' rap from a hook that I would not do at 200'. Ditto macreme, sandtrap, fiddlestick, ect.... but some folks will, and I fail to understand their reasoning.

:cool2:

It comes down to duration, especially when using ghosting techniques. The shorter amount of time spent on rappel, equals less chance of anchor failure.
In the case of a macrame, over loading the first toggle makes release more difficult. Once the first is released--all else comes, relatively easily.

So, while in a perfect world, you being the silkiest/smoothest rappeler, then your comparison holds water.

In a canyon environment, with wet, sandy, new, old,big, little,etc. ropes, the smoothness required is sometimes hard to find. Certain releasables, work better than others when duty cycled. Hence the preference based off footage.

[Iceaxe]

So you are saying an anchor is safe at 40' and not at 200' because you spend less time on the anchor?

Honestly.... if the extra 10 seconds is the difference between a good anchor and a bad anchor you are cutting it a little too close for my comfort... YMMV....

[oldno7]

Time
Duty Cycles
Smoothness(jerky moves/sudden stops)
Rope Friction/bends on rock
Lots to evaluate, when choosing to not leave a trace of passage.

[penmartens]

The Fiddlestick has mainly been used by those on the cutting edge of the sport and/or those doing exploratory canyons, and those wishing to 'ghost' canyons. It has been in use for only a couple of years by very few people. It has not been around long enough or used widely enough, by mainstream canyoneers, to develop a tradition or a body of statistics.
Sonny Lawrence did some testing. The results can be found in this thread. The start of statistical evidence is gathered along with warnings.
We have the nod from expert canyoneer Oldno; and, Tom is a fan, although the fiddlestick may have played a part in his accident.
Tom also listed, in this thread, a variety of reasons one might use a fiddlestick instead of some other type of anchor.
All have said this is one of many tools for the toolbox. It isn't for everyday use. If you do not use a fiddlestick you are no less a canyoneer than those who do. Most of us can quickly, easily, safely descend canyons for decades without ever using a fiddlestick.

To quote Tom from the Inferno thread:
All-ghosting is kind of silly once a canyon is opened to the public... Well-placed webbing anchors are probably better for published canyons than ghosting in keeping the canyons tidy.
I hope... webbing anchors... are neat and tidy, and placed for minimum rope grooves. People CAN also use a fiddlestick to eliminate the need of pulling the ropes through, thus minimizing grooves.

There are probably some instances where a fiddlestick used to minimize rope grooves is practical, but I believe it is a rare instance. Proper anchor setup used by most canyoneers can minimize rope grooves without hauling extra gear or adding risk to a rappel.
I see a potential problem with say half the community using a fiddlestick in a popular canyon, setting the webbing and ring short because they are using a fiddlestick then the other half of canyoneers using the same anchor in a traditional manner and causing rope grooves because the anchor is not set for a proper pull.

I think fiddlesticks are awesome. Seeing all the different ways to saddle that horse has been educational and intriguing. Let's not lose sight of the fact that fiddlesticks are sometimes anchors used in very specific circumstances.
Just my 2 cents.
Penny

[ratagonia]

and, Tom is a fan, although the fiddlestick may have played a part in his accident.


Excellent summary, Ms. Centavo...

Nope... no tangible part in the accident, other than be present as a release mechanism for the WaterTrap. It did not pre-release.

Historically, the first use of the Fiddlestick as March 2011, Marinus Arch trip, using part of Ram's ski pole as the stick.

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/marinus-arch-adventure-north-wash-march-2011/

Over the next two months, the idea was explored and moved forward. Suggesting the use of the Stone Knot was a big breakthrough, then using the UPWARD rather than Downward Stone required ANOTHER trip. Drue came up with the name; nuances developed. Brendan produced some fiberglass ones in the fall... the rest is history.

Tom

[sonnylawrence]

For me there is another reason to learn ghosting techniques. I periodically suffer from the "what ifs." What if I am in the middle of a canyon, the storm is upon me, bears above and snakes all around AND I somehow loose part of my rope preventing me from doing the typical canyoneering pulldown? What do I do? One option, someday, may be to set up a macrame or CEM or fiddlestick, etc. But that will only work if I am proficient at building those anchors. So, I practice when I don't need them; in my tree in the backyard or often while on belay from a second rope attached to a standard anchor.

There is a mental freedom that comes when I develop the ability to solve physical problems such as referred to above.

[Bo_Beck]

I see this mostly as a really great way to kill yourself. But, at least you guys are puttin' some thought in it.

Take something safe like rappelling, and, make it as sketchy as you can...what do you get? Canyoneering...
:haha::lol8::haha::lol8:

[canyoncaver]

[QUOTE=sonnylawrence;501908]55532CEM stand for "Canyones En Mexico" (forgive my spelling). [SIZE=1]It is a complex hitch using sheep shank style. Some people have simplified it by not tying the backup and instead using three sheep shanks. Below is a copy of the description.


CEM Knot The Mexican recoverable anchor, by ChanockThis document I made with the intent to disclose more technical and detailed features and proper preparation of the knot CEM, as for many who have had the opportunity to see the field application of the knot seems to be too many steps and very complex but is relatively simple and easy to learn to do without errors ... Within this document you will find the application of the lump in one of the most common scenarios in the world of adventure and sports verticals: Pin to a tree for a rappel rope and then recover easily without leaving your computer or use a extra material than our rope.The behavior of this node varies by the characteristics of the string to be used either by diameter, be dynamic or static even in the same condition as found (wet abarrada, dirty or dry) and we should consider these factors when when applying the knot. This type of harnesses recoverable are referred to as "techniques of fortune", and that is why I invite you to be installed and used by the responsible member of the group, you know and have full experience in the installation of the knot and being used only for the last to do the rappel.I invite you to meet, learn and use ...CONTENT1. Background of the knot CEM 2. Development of EMC knot 3. Observations on rappel 4. Recovery of the rope5. Observations on the back 6. Overview of the knot 7. CEM knot strength CreditsWARNING: It would be unwise to descend a canyon only interpreting the data contained in this document and inexperienced previa.ca

[Bo_Beck]

Wonder if I can get an app. that'll process all factors into anchor building analysis and spit out which choice is on the edge of "sketchiest" that may be used? Important that all factors are considered.....even unforseen factors? Even unknown factors. It'll have to be a pretty "smartphone" and wiseapp to boot!

Wonder if the PVC, Carbon Fiber, Wood Dowells, Freezer Coil Cleaner Stick Thingys, Etc, are CE, UIAA, batch tested, grade 5 or otherwise proved to have latitudinal integrity? It's one thing bustin your knuckles cleanin' the freezer or a hiking pole that splinters or a wood dowell that snaps whilst hanging a jacket,; but 40-smorty hurts a bunch more!

[Felicia]

Bo, you would still need service - good luck with that!

[penmartens]

For me there is another reason to learn ghosting techniques. I periodically suffer from the "what ifs." What if I am in the middle of a canyon, the storm is upon me, bears above and snakes all around AND I somehow loose part of my rope preventing me from doing the typical canyoneering pulldown? What do I do? One option, someday, may be to set up a macrame or CEM or fiddlestick, etc. But that will only work if I am proficient at building those anchors. So, I practice when I don't need them; in my tree in the backyard or often while on belay from a second rope attached to a standard anchor.

There is a mental freedom that comes when I develop the ability to solve physical problems such as referred to above.

I agree. The more skills I practice and am proficient at the more likely I am to resolve the many unforeseen situations that come up. I am more confident knowing how to set up and use several different anchors.
Some "what ifs" on my list-- spiders, water in winter, dead cows in potholes,...

[stefan]

So it appears, that in case, a picture would have in fact been worth a thousand words...

there is a pdf (with photos) at the top of the message. i've edited the post to separate it from the text so it's clearer. is that what you're sarcastically looking for?

[Brian in SLC]

there is a pdf (with photos) at the top of the message. i've edited the post to separate it from the text so it's clearer. is that what you're sarcastically looking for?

A paragraph or two methinks...

Ha ha.

With regard to knowing and/or practicing a bunch of different techniques.... I'm probably better off with a fairly small toolbox. I just don't remember too many different things all that well. And, in the heat of battle, I want what I am using to be bomber.

There has to be a punch line to the joke, "four canyoneers get to an anchor in a canyon....".

I think I have above average problem solving skills. And, I do appreciate seeing and reading about different techniques. The ones that are particularly frightening are the ones that are "releasable" type rappel scenarios. Some of these seem lilke a good idear on paper, or, in a back yard, but, have shown to be fatal in real world applications.

You accidently deploy that pull cord, however you do, and, dislodge that fiddlestick...well, that'd be bad. Maybe not fatal in short drops...but...

At some point, for regular canyons, exploratory, etc, you have to decide what goes in your pack that will be useful on a trip. A fiddlestick to me makes a lot less sense than an emergency drill kit, a spare rope, or, fifty feet of thin cord/webbing for anchor material.

Anyhoo, YMMV, IMHO, DILLIGAF...ha ha...

[Iceaxe]

At some point, for regular canyons, exploratory, etc, you have to decide what goes in your pack that will be useful on a trip. A fiddlestick to me makes a lot less sense than an emergency drill kit, a spare rope, or, fifty feet of thin cord/webbing for anchor material.

You are hardly playing fair.... now you are just resorting to plain ol' commonsense.... a stance such as that has little value in a discussion on a Mickey Mouse contraption.

:facepalm1:

[dustinsc]

My roommate (who has only been canyoneering once, but has a wealth of knowledge and experience with ropes and knots) and I were playing around with this today, talking about how this could be problematic in a tight area where there is some risk of the stick getting bumped. So my roommate looked at it and said, "why don't you just tie a slipknot on the other end?" So we tried it, and it worked great. We used a double slipknot to make sure the rope was big enough. I tried tugging on the stick, and it does not come through the other end. Then we tried pulling the rope, and it didn't seem to complicate the pull much, if at all. Stick came out super easy. This accomplishes a similar thing as moab mark's pin. I don't know that it would be useful in all situations, and I need to experiment some more, but it seems like something useful to consider.

5785857859
[And no, the stick is not ideal, but it's what we had laying around and was good for what we were testing.]

[hank moon]

i think that red is not the best choice for fiddlestick color. what if it gets stuck and left hanging for all to see? In Utah, seems likely that it would become an attractive target for the ubiquitous gun-toting tourist. Go with black or gray (preferably battleship).

[dustinsc]

i think that red is not the best choice for fiddlestick color. what if it gets stuck and left hanging for all to see? In Utah, seems likely that it would become an attractive target for the ubiquitous gun-toting tourist. Go with black or gray (preferably battleship).

That stick was made in a pinch for one canyon, and I've just been using it to test variations on the concept. There's a lot more wrong with it than the color: it's too slippery, the rope is attached with a clove hitch and not through a hole, etc. It won't see another canyon.

[PG Rob]

I need to experiment some more
http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=57858&d=1345164497
I like the ingenuity and idea.
I suspect that once the rope is hanging more than 4 feet off the ground, the weight of the rope will pull right out of the slipknot. Try experimenting with some weight on the pull side that would be comparable to the hanging rope... maybe 1-2 pounds to represent 25 feet of hanging rope, 2-3 pounds for 50 feet and 4-6 pounds for 100 feet.

[Deathcricket]

I like the ingenuity and idea.
I suspect that once the rope is hanging more than 4 feet off the ground, the weight of the rope will pull right out of the slipknot. Try experimenting with some weight on the pull side that would be comparable to the hanging rope... maybe 1-2 pounds to represent 25 feet of hanging rope, 2-3 pounds for 50 feet and 4-6 pounds for 100 feet.

Naw naw this can be made perfectly safe. All you need is another fiddlesticks for the slipknot, then another pull string for that fiddlestix. You can even add a 3rd fiddlestix until you feel safe. :)
57864

[Candace66]

:haha: