Neon

[jon.moab]

I will be down in Escalante, descending Neon later this month. Has anyone been through recently? What is the condition of the keepers? How much water is in the canyon? Any input is appreciated.

[nielse2]

We did it 2 weeks ago... The last keeper was full of sand and pretty easy to get out of... although farther up was a pothole quiet a bit more challenging to get out of... maybe 11 or 12 feet, just enough to make a partner assist difficult... a bit of water but not much, we took wetsuits...

[spinesnaper]

Jon

You have several groups headed in there this coming weekend and the following week so you should have your pick of solid data. I will be in there April 13-15. I will post a preliminary trip report on conditions once we have wifi. You can also private message me and I will update you with what beta I have.

Ken

[jon.moab]

Jon

You have several groups headed in there this coming weekend and the following week so you should have your pick of solid data. I will be in there April 13-15. I will post a preliminary trip report on conditions once we have wifi. You can also private message me and I will update you with what beta I have.

Ken

Thanks Ken. I will definitely hit you up. I would like to take my 11 year old down, and want to make sure I understand the conditions before making the call.

[jon.moab]

We did it 2 weeks ago... The last keeper was full of sand and pretty easy to get out of... although farther up was a pothole quiet a bit more challenging to get out of... maybe 11 or 12 feet, just enough to make a partner assist difficult... a bit of water but not much, we took wetsuits...

Thanks for the info. How much swimming is there?

[nielse2]

hmmmm, 2 short swims and perhaps a handful of short wades... but the water was very cold...

[jon.moab]

hmmmm, 2 short swims and perhaps a handful of short wades... but the water was very cold...

Thank you!

[SuperDolph]

We did it 2 weeks ago... The last keeper was full of sand and pretty easy to get out of... although farther up was a pothole quiet a bit more challenging to get out of... maybe 11 or 12 feet, just enough to make a partner assist difficult... a bit of water but not much, we took wetsuits...

nielse - thanks for the info. Was the challenging pothole 11-12 feet deep, or in diameter? Was there any water in it? What kind of partner assist did you use? Your insight is appreciated as we are heading there this Saturday with a group of 2. I've done the canyon one other time but in that case the main keeper was an easy swimmer and there weren't any other significant challenges. Thanks!

-Jason

[nielse2]

10-12 feet deep, this will give you an idea... the person taking the picture is downstream.

53428

With all our wetsuits on it was a tough climb out, not really anything to hold on too... the main keeper at the end wasnt bad at all though...

it looked like this...

53429

[nielse2]

there were 4 of us so we basically threw the smallest guy out

[spinesnaper]

Wow, that is dry.

Ken

[ilipichicuma]

That's about how it was at the beginning of August last year. An entirely different animal than what I saw the first time I did Neon. Still awesome, though!

[SuperDolph]

Thanks for the info and pictures, that helps a bunch! We only have two people, do you think we will be able to get out of the troublesome pothole if one of us stands on the shoulders of the other?

[ratagonia]

Thanks for the info and pictures, that helps a bunch! We only have two people, do you think we will be able to get out of the troublesome pothole if one of us stands on the shoulders of the other?

I'm not sure how much more anyone can do for you, SuperDolph. The pictures show the problem really well.

Two Sumo-wrestlers? probably not. Two Olympic quality gymnasts - that would work. One of each - sure why not?

You can see a rope coming down. Probably tossed a pack up there, maybe filled with rocks. Tied a rope to it. You have the tools for climbing a rope, and know how to do it, right?

Heck, if a bunch of guys who aren't even smart enough to wear helmets can do it :haha::roll::facepalm1: I think pretty much anyone can probably manage a way to get out of the hole.

Double Heck, what you want? You want me to be there to personally coach you through the problem. Be there to pull you out? --- well, just might happen as I plan to be there on Saturday. I'm the one in the Orange Prison Jumpsuit.

Tom :moses:

[spinesnaper]

Heck, if a bunch of guys who aren't even smart enough to wear helmets can do it :haha::roll::facepalm1: I think pretty much anyone can probably manage a way to get out of the hole.

Tom :moses:

Tom

You are so kind and diplomatic. I mean you could have called them something mean like dorks, dim wits, or some other mean spirited thing. Very impressive.:nod: However I was so interested to see their photos and to read there descriptions about the conditions in there as I am headed out there in about 10 days, I have to confess that I did not even notice their head gear faux pas.:facepalm1:

Ken

[SuperDolph]

Tom - wow, thanks, I just thought I'd ask about their method, this being a canyoneering forum and all.

Nielse - thanks for your posts they have been helpful.

[nielse2]

If you look closely I do have a helmet... Although I confess I have not been able to convert my freinds yet...

[rick t]

if all else fails you could just go over the top of that first deep keeper and slide in/downclimb to the rim on the far side of it.

[ratagonia]

if all else fails you could just go over the top of that first deep keeper and slide in/downclimb to the rim on the far side of it.

So, Rick. After you rappel into the hole, pull your rope and try a whole bunch of things, then they are supposed to upclimb the previous rappel so they can chimney over the top???? :ne_nau::facepalm1:

Okay, perhaps I abuse Rick for sport. But he touches on a important point.

One is advised to leave the rap rope for possible escape, until escape is assured. :cool2:

Tom

[ratagonia]

Tom - wow, thanks, I just thought I'd ask about their method, this being a canyoneering forum and all.

Nielse - thanks for your posts they have been helpful.

Now that we have both made it through, please allow me to answer your question in a less-snippy manner.

Your question is not really how to get out of THIS keeper pothole, but how do people get out of keeper potholes in general.

Let me first divide potholes into two situations: wet potholes, with enough water to increase difficulty; and dry potholes, where one can stand comfortably at the bottom and do things, and the clock is not ticking more than usual.

Dry/Dryish potholes first. A hierarchy of techniques, to be used progressively:

1. Partner assist is the first technique to use. With good footing, two people can often lift (crane) one lighter person up the wall to the full extension of their hands (on feet).
2. Rearranging the Landscape: if there is sufficient sand and/or rocks around, sometimes they can be piled up at the bottom of the exit - though this often is a lot of work for not very much gain. If the partner lift ends up 2-3 inches short, it might be worth pursuing.
3. Next is probably going for a throw. If the throw is not far, often using your partner's pack will work just fine. Remove expensive breakables from the pack. Tie a rope securely to it, and toss it up there, over the edge. You might not want to let it fall too far on the other side. Pull on the rope, and see what you get, as far as resistance. Sometimes it will catch on an edge; sometimes it is just counter-balanced. For the latter, the shape of the neck makes a big difference. Now with a rope up over the edge, plus a boost, and pulling on the rope with your hands might get you up over the lip. It might not take pulling on the rope very hard, just enough to get up to the good holds.
4. Next up is probably a bigger, heavier throw, and using rope-ascending tools to climb the rope to the good holds.
4A. Throwing from the bottom of the potholes is often not very effective. It helps to do the throws from the rappel into the pothole. On this particular pothole (2nd keeper in Neon), it is easy enough to stem out over the keeper pothole and gently plop a sand-filled Potshot on the down-canyon side of the lip.
4B. Partner's packs don't toss that well; so there are bags made for that called a Pot Shot.
4C. Sometimes the throw is long and the stance awkward, in which case, figure out the heaviest Pot Shot you can do the throw with. Sometimes you might need to throw more than one Pot Shot.

Those are the main tools. They can be used in many different ways. :cool2:

Wet Potholes create additional problems as, when the escaper is swimming, the clock is ticking on hypothermia; and partner assists are difficult to use. So, in addition to the general line of thought above, we can add:

5. using flotation:
5a. first stage is to use your pack as a flotation device (might involve blowing up your drybag for more float; and pre-planning to bring a larger drybag or some other things to help out). First Try: straddle the pack with your legs to get your body up 1-2 feet higher, so you can reach the good holds.
5b. second stage is to use your pack and a swimming assist. Have your partner swim vigorously to hold the pack against the wall, while you climb up on it. Close but no cigar? Clip a couple of packs tightly together to form a better "raft".
6. or just do the throw and climb the rope.

If none of these things work, you CAN go nuclear! In this case, that means drilling holes with a hand-rock-drill, and putting hooks in them. Essentially aid-climbing (bat hooks in this case) to get out of the pothole. Many people consider this a 'taint': drilling holes in the canyon is not cool.

Sufficient?

Tom :moses:

(perhaps Shane will part this out as a pothole escape thread)

[ratagonia]

If you look closely I do have a helmet... Although I confess I have not been able to convert my friends yet...

Subtle it is, that helmet, on the rappeller turned away.

Tom

[Taylor]

Pothole escaping and the variety of techniques used is one of my favorite aspects of canyoneering. One thing not mentioned above is the use of extendable poles, (without drilling or picking). The photos below show a deep keeper in Quandary Direct in low water condition. Mike used a pole (an extendable golf ball retriever with the end removed) and some duct tape to place a hook with webbing and an etrier hanging from it. Obviously, after the first person escapes, there are easier ways to get everyone else past the obstacle but we each practiced the technique as if we were soloing or were first man in. I cannot remember if this one was a swimmer or if we could stand on the bottom.

[ratagonia]

Back to Neon Conditions:

Was down Neon way this past weekend - 5/6/2012. Lots of folks in the Hood. Before, there
were many conflicting conditions reports - prompting me to clarify.

Malia, Dean and crew went up in at the Tri-borough Bridges, and found water up
there worthy of wet suits. Perhaps they would add to this report.

We rapped in at the "Tree entrance", which is above the More Fun and Fork Chop
entrances. We found very little water in Neon. There was one brief swim before
Fork Chop, then one brief swim after Keeper Pothole #2. The rap at the Cathedral
landed in waist-deep water.

Unlike most canyons, because of the multiple entrances, the Keepers in Neon are
usually discussed from the bottom up. So "The Neon Keeper" is the one right
before the Cathedral. It was knee deep at entrance, and has a lot of gravel
washed in, so most people can exit with a little help or on their own mantling
abilities.

Keeper #2 is between the More Fun and the Sport entrance, and is dry. Yields
easily to a partner boost with a pack toss rope to help with getting over the
lip. There is also the option of climbing out and rapping off the bolt up there
back into the canyon; or stemming over and sliding down; or stemming over and
dropping a weighted pack or potshot; or climbing out and over to the bolt,
hopping to the other side and walking the bench downcanyon to the moki steps,
which avoids the swim.

There were Cedar gnats at the trailhead, and just a few lower down. No
significant biting bugs further in, but some kind of leaf-muncher was working
the cottonwoods at the mouth of neon, and dropping down upon our camp there, and
crawling all over the tents. Fully-sealed tents highly recommended.

The Escalante River was higher than expected, and we had to hunt for (and we
found) stream crossings that did not knock us over, but were perhaps up to waist
deep. The water seemed higher in the afternoon and evening, but back down by
morning. Water quality was particularly murky in the evening - not sure why. A
little higher water and I would want to drybag my pack before attempting a
crossing.

Webbing at the Cathedral was as usual excessive, but most looked very new. Mike
replaced the worn piece at the end. Looks like someone had pulled their rope
through it - it was cut through about 1/3 of the way! No ring in place. People
had used this an hour before we got there - sc-a-a-a-a-a-a-ary! Don't do that!
Mike extended it to get a good pull / minimize rope grooves and put a big fat
rapid link on it.

If'n you head down there, don't expect to have it to yourself, and do be
prepared to play well with others. Thanks.

Tom

[spinesnaper]

Tom

Thanks for the report. Headed in there next weekend.

Ken

[jon.moab]

Tom, were wetsuits necessary for the route you did?

[ratagonia]

No wetsuits needed, from where we went in down.

Tom

[jon.moab]

No wetsuits needed, from where we went in down.

Tom

Thanks for the info. I must admit, I was hoping for a full canyon..... I am sure it will still be a great experience.

[ratagonia]

Thanks for the info. I must admit, I was hoping for a full canyon..... I am sure it will still be a great experience.

Malia and Dean who went up higher said they found considerable water and were glad to have wetsuits.

Tom

[jon.moab]

Malia and Dean who went up higher said they found considerable water and were glad to have wetsuits.

Tom

As I am not familiar with Neon (this will be my first time through), could you please provide a bit more info on the upper section Malia and Dean went through? I have read the beta on your website about the middle section, which requires one hike an extra mile above the normal drop in. Is this what you are referring to? Do you have a GPS waypoint to the upper drop in? Are there any substantial obstacles (potholes, down-climbs, rappels)? Anchors?

Thanks!!!

[ratagonia]

I like to leave quite a bit of adventure available for those who seek it out, so you may find my answer unsatisfactory.

Above the More Fun entrance, and above the Fork Chop entrance, there are quite a few more ways to get in. My Map #152 incorrectly shows the More Fun entrance as being up at the Fork Chop entrance. Both are walk-ins. I am working on a new version of that map that will "give a little more away".

Caution must be exercised because, if rapping into the canyon, the floor of the canyon is likely more than 100 feet down (the length of ropes you are likely to have). Malia and Dean went up to the Tri-borough Bridges, which Ram has taken me to, but I have only a vague idea of how to get there, mostly based on these photos:

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com/ravearchive/mar02/

Ram's walk-in route in is intricate; even if I knew it, I might not be able to describe it.

Yes there are substantial obstacles, though most are pretty mild, and no rappels longer than 100 feet.

Some people have suggested that hiking the bench on the southeast side of the canyon offers easier access to the upper canyon.

That's all I got for you...

Tom :moses:

[jon.moab]

Thanks Tom. The pictures are helpful. I am always up for an adventure and we will have more than enough rope to safely drop into the canyon (100', 200', 300'). We will have to see what time permits and will be prepared for the upper section.

[slotseeker]

Tom,

Where can I find your maps (map #152)? I've searched for it in Bogley and I've looked around your website as well, to no avail.

Thanks, Chris

[jon.moab]

I imagine this is the map Tom is referring to, http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/arch/152cneon.jpg, which can be purchased here, http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/arch/index.htm.

[ratagonia]

I imagine this is the map Tom is referring to, http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/arch/152cneon.jpg, which can be purchased here, http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/arch/index.htm.

Wow, that's still there? Yikes!!!

We are in the process of building out a much better website, where people can actually find things.

Maps for sale: http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=111

Or Download: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/intro/mapcenter.php

I have a new version of that map releasing today.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Wow, that's still there? Yikes!!!

We are in the process of building out a much better website, where people can actually find things.

Maps for sale: http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/home.php?cat=111

Or Download: http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/intro/mapcenter.php

I have a new version of that map releasing today.

Tom

New version updated, now available at the Map Download Center.

Tom

[spinesnaper]

Tom

The new maps are sweet.:hail2thechief::hail2thechief:

Thanks. Very timely. Trip report to follow.

Ken

[Hill Keeper]

Tom,

Thanks for the new map. Killer. Wondering how long it took you to run the canyon from the tree entrance. Looking to do a day slog from Egypt trailhead. Hoping to have enough time to mosey down the river to check out some art when we get out. Much obliged.

[ratagonia]

Tom,

Thanks for the new map. Killer. Wondering how long it took you to run the canyon from the tree entrance. Looking to do a day slog from Egypt trailhead. Hoping to have enough time to mosey down the river to check out some art when we get out. Much obliged.

From the trailhead, would be hard to go higher than the More Fun Entrance.

The best art panel is just up-river from the mouth of Neon.

Tom

[neonandmore]

Thanks jon for sharing great info.. i really love this types of Neon posts you have adding great lovely images. it is really awesome

[Brian in SLC]

Say...what? ^^^ Spam?

[SRG]

Neon Sculptures
Thanks jon for sharing great info.. i really love this types of Neon posts you have adding great lovely images. it is really awesome



We need more posts like this... hahaha