Beta for Trail Canyon

[Dan-wild]

Does anyone happen to have, or know where I could find beta to for Trail Canyon. It seems to be a hard one to search for online. A lot of the problem is the name 'Trail'. It is a very broad and general word. I would appreciate it! :mrgreen:

[Slot Machine]

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/trail1.htm

[ratagonia]

Good write-up, Shane. :naughty:

:moses:

[Iceaxe]

Funny but a couple weeks ago I was asked why no one did Trail anymore... my response was its a great canyon and certianly worth doing, but the canyon had kinda fallen off the radar as most the usual suspects producing TR's, photo's and video had moved on to new endevors. At one time Trail was a must do canyon for intermedate or better canyoneers visiting North Wash. It packs a big bang for such an easy approach and exit. I still consider trail one of the best North Wash area slots.

[ratagonia]

Funny but a couple weeks ago I was asked why no one did Trail anymore... my response was its a great canyon and certianly worth doing, but the canyon had kinda fallen off the radar as most the usual suspects producing TR's, photo's and video had moved on to new endevors. At one time Trail was a must do canyon for intermedate or better canyoneers visiting North Wash. It packs a big bang for such an easy approach and exit. I still consider trail one of the best North Wash area slots.

Totally concur! :moses:

[Dan-wild]

That's awesome! Yeah I was wondering why the information wasn't as accessible with such an seemingly easy approach. I'm excited to do this one. It looks like a really fun one from what I've seen. Thanks, I guess it's time to finally become a climb-utah member!!! :2thumbs::haha:

[Sandstone Addiction]

Surprising how different Shane's Beta is from Kelsey's as far as difficulty. Can anyone elaborate?

[flatiron]

aww dang it Shane. Now everybody and their brother and the boy scouts will be out there!!! :lol8:
Guess we will have to sneak thru midweek. Really looking forward to doing it, just not saying when! :cool2:

[Dan-wild]

aww dang it Shane. Now everybody and their brother and the boy scouts will be out there!!! :lol8:
Guess we will have to sneak thru midweek. Really looking forward to doing it, just not saying when! :cool2:

Yeah, we would all like solitude, but would you be doing this without other people's advise and experience?

[USofCS]

Trail is an amazing fun canyon, I just don't suggest doing it during spider mating season. We were in it last late May and encountered 10's of 1000s spiders of course in the long very very narrow hallway toward the end of the canyon. Very unnerving!

[moab mark]

Surprising how different Shane's Beta is from Kelsey's as far as difficulty. Can anyone elaborate?

What are the differences?

[ratagonia]

Trail is an amazing fun canyon, I just don't suggest doing it during spider mating season. We were in it last late May and encountered 10's of 1000s spiders of course in the long very very narrow hallway toward the end of the canyon. Very unnerving!

More likely Harvestmen (Daddy Long Legs), which are much more common in canyons, especially en masse. Some amazing displays. No hazard to humans, as their mouth parts are too small to pierce our skin.

Fun!!!

Tom

[ratagonia]

Surprising how different Shane's Beta is from Kelsey's as far as difficulty. Can anyone elaborate?

You are asking people to explain Kelsey's opinion of a canyon?

This is very difficult. Kelsey's opinions of canyons are a bit more erratic than other beta-providers. There are several reasons for this, including that Kelsey usually does not do a canyon more than once, so if he has a good day, it is easy, and if he has a tough go of it, then the canyon is hard. He also usually goes alone or with a very small group, so he does less "crowd-sourcing" than us other beta-providers.

Tom

[Sandstone Addiction]

What are the differences?


Kelsey describes the canyon as pretty straight forward: downclimbing, non-keeper potholes and 2 raps, and goes on to say "About 500m beyond R2 will be the narrowest part. At one point you'll have to UC about 2m to pass a narrow spot. After that, and just before the slot ends, will be a place where only the skinniest folk can pass; everyone else will have to chimney up a meter or two..." Tech Slot Guide 2nd Ed.

Climb-Utah's beta http://climb-utah.com/Powell/trail1.htm mentions a much higher degree of skills required.

Has something in the canyon changed since his book?

I'm only bringing this up for safety's sake as I, and apparently everyone else including the boy scouts, have this on the radar and chimneying up 2 meters doesn't sound like much (since I don't fit in the "skinniest" group yet) and I'm not fully prepared for the next life.

Please don't think that I'm trying to :amazon: whatsoever.

[Iceaxe]

Those in the 190# plus catagory are going to be going much higher than 2M (6 feet). I know... because I'm in that group (6'-1", 195#).

MK is a skinny dude so I'm guessing he never actually tried the high road.

The bad part is if you take the low road and don't fit you are royally screwed, as the canyon floor drops and it would be very hard to reverse. Anyhoo.... that's my 2 cents...


http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/trail1.jpg

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/trail6.jpg

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/trail4.jpg

[ratagonia]

Kelsey describes the canyon as pretty straight forward: downclimbing, non-keeper potholes and 2 raps, and goes on to say "About 500m beyond R2 will be the narrowest part. At one point you'll have to UC about 2m to pass a narrow spot. After that, and just before the slot ends, will be a place where only the skinniest folk can pass; everyone else will have to chimney up a meter or two..." Tech Slot Guide 2nd Ed.

Climb-Utah's beta http://climb-utah.com/Powell/trail1.htm mentions a much higher degree of skills required.

Has something in the canyon changed since his book?

I'm only bringing this up for safety's sake as I, and apparently everyone else including the boy scouts, have this on the radar and chimneying up 2 meters doesn't sound like much (since I don't fit in the "skinniest" group yet) and I'm not fully prepared for the next life.

Please don't think that I'm trying to :amazon: whatsoever.

Mr. K tends to think any upclimb he CAN do is fairly easy.

Personally, I find that upclimb rather challenging. I'd call it 5.9. Not too exposed or dangerous; and not all that easy to provide an assist to someone else on. I think I've done the upclimb 3 or 4 times, and gone through the bottom once. Sometimes going through the bottom is "enhanced" by there being deepish water down there. The narrowest part is a section going UPhill, and is the scene of several famous helmet-stack incidents. (A small person positions a stack of helmets in JUST the right place, for the fatty in the canyon to step up onto.)

Mmmmmmmmmm. Now the question is, how much beta do you need. right foot on that bump there, and...

This ties into another discussion - are we really at the stage where people need this much beta for a canyon? This is a philosophical question - we can tell you all sorts of things about the canyon, but we can't tell you how it will be for you on the particular day you have in mind...

My personal philosophy is that canyoneering is about adventure. Looking at Shane's and Mr. K's beta, you have enough information. Enough to be somewhat cautious, plenty to go in there and find out - hard or easy; or maximum struggle! Now you're talking!!!

Tom

[Sandstone Addiction]

Kelsey usually does not do a canyon more than once, so if he has a good day, it is easy, and if he has a tough go of it, then the canyon is hard. He also usually goes alone or with a very small group, so he does less "crowd-sourcing" than us other beta-providers.
Tom

That had never crossed my mind. Makes perfect sense and something to consider in future plans.

Thank you.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Those in the 190# plus catagory are going to be going much higher than 2M (6 feet). that's my 2 cents...


http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/trail1.jpg



That certainly would be where I'd be also. Thanks for the 2 cents.

[ratagonia]

Those in the 190# plus catagory are going to be going much higher than 2M (6 feet). I know... because I'm in that group (6'-1", 195#).

MK is a skinny dude so I'm guessing he never actually tried the high road.

The bad part is if you take the low road and don't fit you a royally screwed, as the canyon floor drops and it would be very hard to reverse. Anyhoo.... that's my 2 cents...



Mr. K is skinny, but he hates the skinny stuff. I bet he went high. It is also the kind of climbing that I think Mr. K is good at.

The hard point of the climb up is not far off the ground. The high part in the pictures is easy. There's one gaper up there.

I also think the climb back up if you go into the slot is not too bad. don't know why, seems like I have seen people come back up and it is not too bad.

Tom :moses:

[outsider]

One note I don't think has been mentioned - that last skinny part is accessible from the bottom. Maybe a 20 minute walk from the road or so. I've used it as a "test" on companions to see how they fit in the skinnies, and they get to see how they enjoy squeezing in a non-stressful situation. There is also another pinch farther upcanyon that requires an upclimb by all, but I believe it is an easier upclimb and easily assistable, so I believe the last one is the "crux".
-john

[Scott P]

"About 500m beyond R2 will be the narrowest part. At one point you'll have to UC
about 2m to pass a narrow spot. After that, and just before the slot ends, will
be a place where only the skinniest folk can pass; everyone else will
have to chimney up a meter or two..." Tech Slot Guide 2nd
Ed.

Climb-Utah's beta http://climb-utah.com/Powell/trail1.htm mentions a much
higher degree of skills required.


Neither route description is inaccurate (other than perhaps the 2m thing); it's just one is more detailed than the other (one paragraph vs several). That is the main difference. MK didn't say the climb is easy. He didn't say it was hard either. He just said that you will have to chimney, which is correct. If MK rates a canyon as PG, X or R (which Trail is rated as such) in his book, then the majority of the time it means that it required a more than beginner skill level.

[Sandstone Addiction]

If MK rates a canyon as PG, X or R (which Trail is rated as such) in his book, then the majority of the time it means that it required a more than beginner skill level.

Opps, I totally overlooked the rating when I was checking this out. North Fork Trail: 3B II PG SLOT.

I appreciate everyone's input on this, you have been most helpful.

[Dan-wild]

Mr. K tends to think any upclimb he CAN do is fairly easy.

Personally, I find that upclimb rather challenging. I'd call it 5.9. Not too exposed or dangerous; and not all that easy to provide an assist to someone else on. I think I've done the upclimb 3 or 4 times, and gone through the bottom once. Sometimes going through the bottom is "enhanced" by there being deepish water down there. The narrowest part is a section going UPhill, and is the scene of several famous helmet-stack incidents. (A small person positions a stack of helmets in JUST the right place, for the fatty in the canyon to step up onto.)

Mmmmmmmmmm. Now the question is, how much beta do you need. right foot on that bump there, and...

This ties into another discussion - are we really at the stage where people need this much beta for a canyon? This is a philosophical question - we can tell you all sorts of things about the canyon, but we can't tell you how it will be for you on the particular day you have in mind...

My personal philosophy is that canyoneering is about adventure. Looking at Shane's and Mr. K's beta, you have enough information. Enough to be somewhat cautious, plenty to go in there and find out - hard or easy; or maximum struggle! Now you're talking!!!

Tom

I guess I should be more specific next time. I was really just looking for a description of the approach and where to drop in. Also where to find maps. (although I have some now) and water conditions. Thanks for all the thechnical information though still! I'm excited to experience it!:mrgreen:

[flatiron]

Personally, I find that upclimb rather challenging. I'd call it 5.9. Tom
Tom, Shane, love the beta but these climbing ratings I read seem kinda, what's the word?, inaccurate. What standard ru using? Are they canyoneering ratings? I climb a fair bit, not really that good, and doing a 5.9 trad climb up, or down, WITH rock shoes can be pretty dang challenging (except for 1/2 of Boulder it seems, which does nothing for my ego). And for Trail people r doing a 5.9 free solo climb, no pro, wearing approach shoes that may be wet and sandy?? Is it just me? :duel:

PS: Can somebody pleazzzze run thru Trail b4 I hit it and clean out all the spiders! I hate spiders. And the snakes too. Just kinda clean it up for me if u could. Thanks

Alan

[bigred72]

We've been invaded!!!

[jman]

We've been invaded!!!

We should be good for right now....all fixed!

[nat]

Tom, Shane, love the beta but these climbing ratings I read seem kinda, what's the word?, inaccurate. What standard ru using? Are they canyoneering ratings? I climb a fair bit, not really that good, and doing a 5.9 trad climb up, or down, WITH rock shoes can be pretty dang challenging (except for 1/2 of Boulder it seems, which does nothing for my ego). And for Trail people r doing a 5.9 free solo climb, no pro, wearing approach shoes that may be wet and sandy?? Is it just me? :duel:

PS: Can somebody pleazzzze run thru Trail b4 I hit it and clean out all the spiders! I hate spiders. And the snakes too. Just kinda clean it up for me if u could. Thanks

Alan

I think that you are imagining this to be much harder and scary than it really is. I really don't think that it is close to 5.9, although it is awkward. In any case, it is nothing like a real climb. It is two kind of hard moves to get up about 5 feet, all above a sandy floor. A partner assist can be used here.

Nat

[ratagonia]

Tom, Shane, love the beta but these climbing ratings I read seem kinda, what's the word?, inaccurate. What standard ru using? Are they canyoneering ratings? I climb a fair bit, not really that good, and doing a 5.9 trad climb up, or down, WITH rock shoes can be pretty dang challenging (except for 1/2 of Boulder it seems, which does nothing for my ego). And for Trail people r doing a 5.9 free solo climb, no pro, wearing approach shoes that may be wet and sandy?? Is it just me? :duel:

PS: Can somebody pleazzzze run thru Trail b4 I hit it and clean out all the spiders! I hate spiders. And the snakes too. Just kinda clean it up for me if u could. Thanks

Alan

I try to do one "rated" rock climb a year, just to stay in touch with the rating system, but it doesn't work. I AM a former Boulder climber, but unfortunately in a past era when 5.9 was hard, and in my five years there I moved from 5.7 to 5.11a - so there was a time when I had the rating system, in that range, DIALLED! :cool2:

YDS ratings always involve some kind of "normal conditions". In canyons that means wearing Canyoneers and being wet and sandy. No chalkbag, hopefully no bolt to pull on.

I wouldn't call it free-solo, I would call it a boulder problem. And a chimney problem at that, which means, especially in this case, that the problem is not falling off but making forward progress. And... while I generally am now a non-climber, my chimney and off-width work is still fairly good (I hope).

No spiders in Trail. Daddy Longlegs are not spiders. Don't worry, be happy! :haha:

Tom

[ratagonia]

I think that you are imagining this to be much harder and scary than it really is. I really don't think that it is close to 5.9, although it is awkward. In any case, it is nothing like a real climb. It is two kind of hard moves to get up about 5 feet, all above a sandy floor. A partner assist can be used here.

Nat

You're much more in touch with climbing ratings, Nat. What would you rate it, without assistance?

Tom

[nat]

It has been a few years since I've done Trail, and it is hard to rate a chimney/boulder problem, but it seems to me that it would be quite a bit easier than 5.9 chimneys in Yosemite, such as Moby Dick Left. Maybe if you found those moves in trail on a real climb it could be rated 5.6?

Nat

[Iceaxe]

I have the climbing required rated 5.7 on Climb-Utah. and I consider the first pinch that everyone must climb over to be the hardest of the two climbs. YMMV

At the first pinch your shoes are normally wet and/or muddy and it makes the climb difficult, particularly the start which is a bit awkward.

[nat]

I have the climbing required rated 5.7 on Climb-Utah. and I consider the first pinch that everyone must climb over to be the hardest of the two climbs. YMMV

At the first pinch your shoes are normally wet and/or muddy and it makes the climb difficult, particularly the start which is a bit awkward.

Yeah, that's the spot I am thinking of. Could be 5.7, especially with wet feet (as usually the case). It is awkward. I have assisted people up it, though that is also awkward.

Nat

[Scott Card]

The narrowest part is a section going UPhill, and is the scene of several famous helmet-stack incidents. (A small person positions a stack of helmets in JUST the right place, for the fatty in the canyon to step up onto.)



TomGuilty and I prefer the term well nourished...."fatty", well that ain't nice!:haha:

[Iceaxe]

Guilty and I prefer the term well nourished....

The new politically correct term is "horizontally gifted".

:lol8:

[ratagonia]

And I don't even remember the previous spot...

Hmmm, then again, with my memory, I am thinking the spot near the end that I have a clear memory of might be in a different canyon. :crazy:

Tom

[flatiron]

I think that you are imagining this to be much harder and scary than it really is. I really don't think that it is close to 5.9, although it is awkward. In any case, it is nothing like a real climb. It is two kind of hard moves to get up about 5 feet, all above a sandy floor. A partner assist can be used here.
Thanks Nat. I was not really worried, more just throwing out a q. I have done several canyons where there was a rated climb and have found it to always be easier, usually quite a bit. Which is good! Concerning a prev thread about beta, I would MUCH rather be told it is wet, cold, hard, 5.9 etc and be prepared than vice versa. Hey, no matter what the beta or word of mouth it is still on me to be ready for battle.

And yes Tom/Nat/Shane I agree, boulder/chimney offwidth stuff is different, more awkward than anything and certainly not any sort of clean face climbing. I actually like the climbing/downcimbing in canyons more than rock. Now if I only lived in SoUtah, sighhhhhhh. Any good jobs down there?

Daddylonglegs not spiders!!! Wow, things you learn on Bogley.

[ratagonia]

I guess I should be more specific next time. I was really just looking for a description of the approach and where to drop in. Also where to find maps. (although I have some now) and water conditions. Thanks for all the technical information though still! I'm excited to experience it!:mrgreen:

Yeah, I see that. But it evolved into a very detailed discussion, which I hope is unnecessary for anyone planning on going in there. I also hope most would find it undesirable to have the canyon laid out in immense detail.

Tom :moses: