Rating for the Squeeze entrance of Blue John

[USofCS]

I am curious what others thought about the discrepancies between the ratings that are found on Climb-utah.com and Kelsey book. On Climb-utah it is rated a 3A III X and in Kelsey's book it was rated a 3(a/b) III PG. I had not really tried it as I didn't think I was up for the X canyons yet, but after reading the book, gave it a try this weekend and found that it was not a difficult canyon at all, and we ended up not even having to rappel. At no point did we feel there was any mae west sections requiring a X rating, and the PG rating seemed most appropriate. My concern is that after people do this they may feel, "hey I can do X rated canyons now" and head into something like Sandthrax and really find themselves in a world of hurt. I do agree with Shane's description and warnings for the "large frame" canyoneerer because it was tight, but no tighter than Middle Lep which was only rated an R and a PG in Kelsey's book.

Are there two rating systems in work here or just different opinions? Thoughts?

[ratagonia]

I am curious what others thought about the discrepancies between the ratings that are found on Climb-utah.com and Kelsey book. On Climb-utah it is rated a 3A III X and in Kelsey's book it was rated a 3(a/b) III PG. I had not really tried it as I didn't think I was up for the X canyons yet, but after reading the book, gave it a try this weekend and found that it was not a difficult canyon at all, and we ended up not even having to rappel. At no point did we feel there was any mae west sections requiring a X rating, and the PG rating seemed most appropriate. My concern is that after people do this they may feel, "hey I can do X rated canyons now" and head into something like Sandthrax and really find themselves in a world of hurt. I do agree with Shane's description and warnings for the "large frame" canyoneerer because it was tight, but no tighter than Middle Lep which was only rated an R and a PG in Kelsey's book.

Are there two rating systems in work here or just different opinions? Thoughts?

There are two different rating systems involved.

T

[Scott Card]

I, for one, don't rely on Kelsey's descriptions very often. If I have questions, I know who to talk to for beta or I get on Tom's or Shane's site for beta. I don't understand very well the Kelsey's maps, distances descriptions, rope lengths, diagrams....etc. I do look at the books occasionally for new routes...... occasionally as in I haven't looked in one of his books for probably 5 years.

[USofCS]

Scott, with that said, what would you rate the canyon?

[Iceaxe]

I put an X rating on the entrance after people kept getting stuck... probably a bit over the top. I backed the rating down to an R today. The day I changed the rating I was ticked off that people kept needing to be rescued and I only wanted experianced canyoneers to enter through that route. For the small number of folks that use the route it has an extremely high number of rescues.

I didn't know MK had added the route in his 2nd edition (it wasn't in his first edition), for a long time Climb-Utah was the only place where the variation was noted.

Just curious.... is the sign still scratched into the wall "Danger! if you enter here you will die!"

For the record... rating are very subjective and condition dependant. I'm always interested in hearing if someone thinks one of my ratings is out-of-line with the route.

[Scott Card]

Quick answer is I would rely on the Canyon Rating System that Shane and Tom use in their descriptions. "Easy" is not in the ratings. "Easy" is subjective. More objective are the technical requirements of a canyon AND known risk factors that exist or could exist. A canyon that is in X conditions (mega keepers) one day may be PG or G if full. But, I look at the Techincal Classification number AND the Risk Factors letter and try to understand what makes it a class 3 or 4 AND an R or an X canyon. I personally have little tolerance for nasty exposure of a silo but love the big rappels in Heaps and potholes in Imlay. I think I will love the pot holes in Po/Cricket in a couple of months.... hopefully.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: Here is a good read on the Bluejohn squeeze variation.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?49821

:cool2:

[trackrunner]

FWIW: Here is a good read on the Bluejohn squeeze variation.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?49821

:cool2:

I think I found that guy's hiking boot in squeeze variation

[USofCS]

I put an X rating on the entrance after people kept getting stuck... probably a bit over the top. I backed the rating down to an R today. The day I changed the rating I was ticked off that people kept needing to be rescued and I only wanted experianced canyoneers to enter through that route. For the small number of folks that use the route it has an extremely high number of rescues.

I didn't know MK had added the route in his 2nd edition (it wasn't in his first edition), for a long time Climb-Utah was the only place where the variation was noted.

Just curious.... is the sign still scratched into the wall "Danger! if you enter here you will die!"

For the record... rating are very subjective and condition dependant. I'm always interested in hearing if someone thinks one of my ratings is out-of-line with the route.

That is interesting about people needing a lot of rescue. I don't think you could have been clearer about the tightness and what to expect. I know the "rappels" weren't especially difficult either, but o well. I agree that an "r" rating is more appropriate as it is in line with Leprechaun in narrowness and "mae westness!"

There was a large mark scratched into the wall about half way through that said, "Private Property", and maybe something about don't enter or you will die. Sort of sad that somebody did that.