Rope stolen in the Roost 3/24

[canyondevil]

Prior to decending Not Mindbender on Saturday (March 24), a few members of our party walked down to the Moki Exit and fixed a rope to protect our ascent on the way out. After a great trip through the canyon, we got to the exit and discovered that someone had taken the rope. No, we did not leave a note on the rope saying when we would retrieve it, but anyone with a brain should be able to figure out why it was there. I guess it is a lesson learned that canyon etiquitte no longer exists.

[ratagonia]

Not stolen. Propaganda. Exaggeration. :roll: You abandoned a rope in the wild, and someone cleaned up your trash. :nod:

Leaving a note might produce the result you desire. :naughty:

Tom

[canyondevil]

In that case, I guess I should leave a note on my vehicle at the trailhead so someone doesnt take that too.

[Deathcricket]

Sorry to hear that bro, sucks! Hope it never happens to me..... :angryfire:

Hopefully whoever took it sees this message and decides to give it back to you.

[Iceaxe]

I didn't "steal" your rope.... but... I normally remove all trash I find in the wilds... and by trash I mean anything that doesn't belong in my humble opinion.

So... excessive webbing, water bottles, bolts, candy wrappers get removed. Vehicles parked at trailheads remain.

Your mileage may vary... :cool2:

[penmartens]

It has been about 4 years since I left a rope hanging at the Moki exit. It used to be a 'safe' and suggested thing to do. In the past, it was a great way to manage risk. Apparently, that is no longer the case.
It was quite a shock to get there and find our rope missing. Our pleasant day suddenly turned into one of great frustration, stress, and risk. Luckily, one of our party unexpectedly stepped forward to say he was willing to 'give it a go'. Otherwise, we would have had a very long walk to a different exit that probably would have required a bivvy.
Call me old-fashioned, but the community has my solemn oath that I will never remove a rope left hanging for safety purposes at a sketchy climbout.
Penny Martens

[restrac2000]

The rope stolen title took me off guard. Stolen tends to imply malicious, selfish intent. Most rope removal like this is done for the benefit of community and place. That said...

Seems like there was a misunderstanding here that resulted in a bad experience. I have never heard that people leave a rope at the Moki exit for safety, but I haven't played out there extensively much in 3-4 years. To be fully honest, it does seem a note could have communicated the rope was for "safety purposes" and likely avoided the tension.

On a philosophical note, doesn't it seem that someone in a team should always know how to lead that exit considering how much beta exists? The route is a guaranteed probability, while as you learned, and has been well-documented for years, fixed ropes are highly uncertain in Utah.

Phillip

[hank moon]

it does seem a note could have communicated the rope was for "safety purposes" and likely avoided the tension.

x2

[canyondevil]

The rope stolen title took me off guard. Stolen tends to imply malicious, selfish intent. Most rope removal like this is done for the benefit of community and place.

I absolutely feel that it was done with selfish intent. To put others at risk by removing their risk management procedure is being selfish (in this case ours was setting a rope so noone will be at risk). Even if they thought they had removed trash that was left permanently, they should have realized that was not the case when they saw our vehicle at the top and left it there.

BTW, we did find someone else's coiled rope near the exit. We didnt know if someone stashed it or if they dropped it. Since it was not ours, we left it there. Removing it was not going to benefit the community or place. If someone lost one pm myself or Penny and we will tell you where you can find it.

[Felicia]

x2

X3


The license plate on your car could be considered a type of note.

[ratagonia]

I absolutely feel that it was done with selfish intent. To put others at risk by removing their risk management procedure is being selfish (in this case ours was setting a rope so noone will be at risk). Even if they thought they had removed trash that was left permanently, they should have realized that was not the case when they saw our vehicle at the top and left it there.

BTW, we did find someone else's coiled rope near the exit. We didnt know if someone stashed it or if they dropped it. Since it was not ours, we left it there. Removing it was not going to benefit the community or place. If someone lost one pm myself or Penny and we will tell you where you can find it.

Thank you for sharing your feelings.

How is a wilderness visitor supposed to identify that the rope is there for that purpose? Very easy - if it has a note on it. No note = just another piece of trash. The onus is on the litterer to state why they are abandoning stuff in the desert. That there was also a car at the top is ????? How is that supposed to provide pertinent information?

Take responsibility for your and your group's action, Devil. Don't attach B.S. to other people's actions - you have no way to know what their intentions were.

Also, you came upon some trash in the wilderness, and you left it there? How SELFISH! You have done a disservice to the canyoneering community, and to the place.

Tom

[ratagonia]

It has been about 4 years since I left a rope hanging at the Moki exit. It used to be a 'safe' and suggested thing to do.

Who suggested this?

Tom

[Scott Card]

I guess I am of a different mind set. Not every rope or piece of equipment is trash in my mind. If I see water ski rope, I cut and haul, like I have many times in the Subway. If I see climbing rope/ webbing dangling then I am likely going to leave it since I assume someone is below and wants to go back up or someone is exporing and will return and fetch the rope. Those who fix ropes to ascend back out of a canyon should beware of trash removal? Do you leave a note at every drop? The assumption that everything in a canyon is trash is kinda presumptious. Why don't you cut every piece of webbing at every anchor and ghost the canyon? Seems a bit of a double standard. In other words, when it suits you, you leave it. If you want it (Yay, canyon loot!!!) or deem it unnecessary, cut and remove. I guess my assumption in the above described set of facts would be someone will return and get it. Unsafe is another discussion entirely (water ski rope???).

Admittedly, a note should have resolved any confusion.

All that said, knowing that Tom and Shane and others like them are out there, I don't leave anything except anchor material even though it may help the next guy.

[canyondevil]

Ok, next time there will be a note. Lesson learned.

[oldno7]

I guess I am of a different mind set. Not every rope or piece of equipment is trash in my mind. If I see water ski rope, I cut and haul, like I have many times in the Subway. If I see climbing rope/ webbing dangling then I am likely going to leave it since I assume someone is below and wants to go back up or someone is exporing and will return and fetch the rope. Those who fix ropes to ascend back out of a canyon should beware of trash removal? Do you leave a note at every drop? The assumption that everything in a canyon is trash is kinda presumptious. Why don't you cut every piece of webbing at every anchor and ghost the canyon? Seems a bit of a double standard. In other words, when it suits you, you leave it. If you want it (Yay, canyon loot!!!) or deem it unnecessary, cut and remove. I guess my assumption in the above described set of facts would be someone will return and get it. Unsafe is another discussion entirely (water ski rope???).

Admittedly, a note should have resolved any confusion.

All that said, knowing that Tom and Shane and others like them are out there, I don't leave anything except anchor material even though it may help the next guy.


Well Said..........

[Brian in SLC]

Bummer.

Not having done that route, I couldn't imagine if the rope was obvious as something left to be usable later, or, abandoned gear.

Is this area prone to seeing casual hikers? Maybe? Seems like an odd thing to just stumble into. Isn't this kinda the middle of no where? Which, is why I could see someone "liberating" a rope if left.

The note is a great idear. Had a partner who was used to leaving a note, and, he had a preprinted label, laminated, he fixed to rope that he either had stashed in a bag ahead of time for a rappel, or, fixed. Said something to the effect of, "if you take this rope, we will die". Seemed effective as he'd never had a rope taken. We used it on the Lost Arrow Spire in Yosemite for the rappel in from the rim (rap in, climb up with your rappel line attached to you, then tyrolean back to the rim...good times). I think "most" folks at that point know you wouldn't remove such a thing but...there's an aspect of this situation that makes it hard to take the rope and....that's maybe partly a solution for fixing a rope...

Rap down and tie the bottom of the rope to something. Then, climb back out. My bet is most folks who'd take the rope wouldn't if they couldn't just pull it up.

Another solution folks mind not like....anchor over the rim. Both out of sight and harder to get to from the top.

Makes me wonder how "leadable" with gear is that moki step route? Would a handful of cams suffice for pro, or, is the rock too soft or devoid of pro options?

Does make me think that this might be a candidate for, ahem, a nice anchor that's out of sight but still workable for fixing a rope to. If you have to string a rope all the way up onto the rim and then some, it'll be visible and obvious.

I'd hope most of us would recognize a fixed rope rigged for escape and leave it be. However, I run into junky old ropes here and there and have cut some old ones loose to pack out, too.

Out of sight, out of mind....

[ratagonia]

I guess I am of a different mind set. Not every rope or piece of equipment is trash in my mind. If I see water ski rope, I cut and haul, like I have many times in the Subway. If I see climbing rope/ webbing dangling then I am likely going to leave it since I assume someone is below and wants to go back up or someone is exporing and will return and fetch the rope. Those who fix ropes to ascend back out of a canyon should beware of trash removal? Do you leave a note at every drop? The assumption that everything in a canyon is trash is kinda presumptious. Why don't you cut every piece of webbing at every anchor and ghost the canyon? Seems a bit of a double standard. In other words, when it suits you, you leave it. If you want it (Yay, canyon loot!!!) or deem it unnecessary, cut and remove. I guess my assumption in the above described set of facts would be someone will return and get it. Unsafe is another discussion entirely (water ski rope???).

Admittedly, a note should have resolved any confusion.

All that said, knowing that Tom and Shane and others like them are out there, I don't leave anything except anchor material even though it may help the next guy.

My explanation is for why one should not be surprised that stuff disappears, and should not make up evil motivations for the people who did the public service of removing litter from the canyon.

When I come across stuff, I make an evaluation. If it looks new and clean, I would probably leave it. Last time down Waterholes canyon near Page AZ, several drops were fixed with ropes. They were new, and it was on Navajo land, so our group left the stuff there.

Not a double standard. Every THING we leave in canyons is litter, but some of it is useful, such as webbing around anchors, bolts (in places), etc. So I remove non-useful litter. Like, I replace bright webbing with grey or black, often, but not always. Your argument, Scott, is one of "extension to extremes".

Ghosting canyons is all fine and good. Ghosting canyons with anchors already in place in canyons is all fine and good. Ghosting ... and removing the established anchors, not so good. Could put another party at risk. You could easily say the same thing about a fixed rope on the Moki steps. I have never seen a rope fixed there - I don't know if I would remove one if I found it, and it looked new. My modus operandi is more usually to complain about such things here, but maybe leave it in place. Ideally, I would be going back through there a day or two later, and would THEN remove it.

And the obvious point, if you fix ropes, and want them there when you get back, leave a note. Usually works.

Tom

[peakbaggers]

If I came across a rope as in their situation, I think it would be easy to determine it was there for a determined purpose and would think it safest to leave it alone. That being said however, logically, if you leave a clearly dated note & someone takes the rope, then they're a thief. Anything else (no note) leaves the entire situation up to the mental capacities, values & interpretation of the the person finding it. So if it's a rope I really care about, I'd leave a note, having learned something from this experience here.

[spinesnaper]

I have not used them yet but I bought a pack of tags with an attached wire twist. My plan is to write a note if I ever fix a rope for this purpose with a date, time, description of why the rope was fixed, a prayer for not removing it, and my name and phone number. If the rope is still removed with this type of information, it will be because the offender was illiterate or criminal.

Ken:angryfire:

[ratagonia]

If I came across a rope as in their situation, I think it would be easy to determine it was there for a determined purpose and would think it safest to leave it alone. That being said however, logically, if you leave a clearly dated note & someone takes the rope, then they're a thief. Anything else (no note) leaves the entire situation up to the mental capacities, values & interpretation of the the person finding it. So if it's a rope I really care about, I'd leave a note, having learned something from this experience here.

Let's make a distinction here.

Legally, even with a note, the items are abandoned and can be removed without being theft.

Morally, people will have different views. I think you have a much stronger moral case if you leave a note. Much weaker without.

Tom

[penmartens]

Who suggested this?

Tom

Average Joe Road Trips

Brian,
The Moki exit is a 30-45 minute hike from the top of the mesa. It is not enroute to somewhere else, so the casual passerby would not be out there. In fact, it can only be seen from the bottom of the canyon.
It was not a brand new rope, but I thought it would be obvious to anyone who saw it, that it is a viable piece of equipment that wasn't just left behind. The kicker is, they probably used it to get out. Oh, the irony.

[spinesnaper]

Let's make a distinction here.

Legally, even with a note, the items are abandoned and can be removed without being theft.

Morally, people will have different views. I think you have a much stronger moral case if you leave a note. Much weaker without.

Tom

Tom

I am not sure if I am going to hire you as my backcountry lawyer.

You are not correct regarding what is abandoned property. If I am not mistaken you are quoting the law of the school yard: Finders keepers, losers weepers. However, and I am no lawyer, I do not believe that this is the applicable standard. Rather I believe the relevant law is the Uniform Unclaimed Property Act (1995) SECTION 2. PRESUMPTIONS OF ABANDONMENT states "Property is presumed abandoned if it is unclaimed by the apparent owner during the time set forth below for the particular property:...(15) all other property, five years after the owner’s right to demand the property or after the obligation to pay or distribute the property arises, whichever first occurs." While a rope without a note attached might reasonably be confused for abandoned property, there is no such confusion when there is a note attached. The note removes all doubt about the intent of the owner to return. Removal of the rope under this circumstance may very well be theft.

Ken

[ratagonia]

Average Joe Road Trips

Brian,
The Moki exit is a 30-45 minute hike from the top of the mesa. It is not enroute to somewhere else, so the casual passerby would not be out there. In fact, it can only be seen from the bottom of the canyon.
It was not a brand new rope, but I thought it would be obvious to anyone who saw it, that it is a viable piece of equipment that wasn't just left behind. The kicker is, they probably used it to get out. Oh, the irony.

"The kicker is, they probably used it to get out. Oh, the irony."

Why do you think they used it? I would presume that they did not use it, because:

A. from below, there is no way to see what the rope is anchored to. Might be well anchored, might not. Not worth trusting.

B. the climb up is reasonably easy and solid. Can be spooky, especially the first time. But the holds are big and solid, even if you do not use the chipped holds.

There certainly seems to be a lot of assumptions about "the other party"; and almost zero actual facts. Maybe I should not complain, as I enjoy a good work of fiction as much as the next guy. 'Much Ado About Nothing', anyone?

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Tom

I am not sure if I am going to hire you as my backcountry lawyer.

You are not correct regarding what is abandoned property. If I am not mistaken you are quoting the law of the school yard: Finders keepers, losers weepers. However, and I am no lawyer, I do not believe that this is the applicable standard. Rather I believe the relevant law is the Uniform Unclaimed Property Act (1995) SECTION 2. PRESUMPTIONS OF ABANDONMENT states "Property is presumed abandoned if it is unclaimed by the apparent owner during the time set forth below for the particular property:...(15) all other property, five years after the owner’s right to demand the property or after the obligation to pay or distribute the property arises, whichever first occurs." While a rope without a note attached might reasonably be confused for abandoned property, there is no such confusion when there is a note attached. The note removes all doubt about the intent of the owner to return. Removal of the rope under this circumstance may very well be theft.

Ken

Excellent shade-tree lawyering, Ken.

But the question is how does property abandonment on BLM land managed under the guidelines this particular area is managed under. Individuals do not have the right to abandon private property on the public lands with an expectation of reclaiming it. Certainly not after 4 years, 11 months.

Clearly, I am declining to do the counter shade-tree lawyering required to refute your claim.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Kinda funny. Folks do this type of stuff all the time, then, get surprised when someone takes their stuff.

Climbers can be a bad lot when it comes to stashing gear. Was a big dust up a few years back about boulderers leaving crash pads in Rocky Mtn. Rodents got into them, rain, mold, mildew...just an ugly mess. So, some land managers are a lot less tolerant to this type of thing as that got pretty good press.

I hardly ever do it because I just don't want to be in the situation of having my stuff taken. And, really, I'd feel bad if I didn't get around to picking it up and it rotted away somewhere as unusable trash.

Sounds like a prior party that went through the canyon may have removed the rope in question? Wow. Hmmm. Almost might smack of a message sent? Ie, "get some skills, noobs"?

Same camp of folks remove (and call for removal) of fixed anchors? Karma? Ha ha. Just kiddin'...

Done the fix ropes thing a few times. Usually tie the rope in at the bottom. Unless someone was pretty darn motivated to rap down, untie, and ascend then pull up the rope, that'll cure the most casual rope grabber. But, if someone went up from the bottom, after doing the canyon? Surprised you guys didn't run into them, or, at least see each others' cars. Hate to admit it, but, when I'm in a more remote area, I take photo's of all the cars' plates parked near me, just in case....

Sorry you guys lost your rope. Maybe someone will read this and feel bad? Probably not after being accused of being a thief...etc....

[Brian in SLC]

But the question is how does property abandonment on BLM land managed under the guidelines this particular area is managed under. Individuals do not have the right to abandon private property on the public lands with an expectation of reclaiming it. Certainly not after 4 years, 11 months.

Didn't this issue come up especially with regard to Boulder Canyon and bolt removal? The bolters wanted the removal folks cited for theft? Sheriff said it was abandoned property? Something like that.

Where's outdoor lawyer at large Jim Moss when you need him...(on facebook!)...ha ha.

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: If I'm going to steal something it will be the cooler of cold beer in the back of your truck... and not some stinky old rope that I have to lug out of the bottom of a canyon.

:lol8:


Reference for those who have never had the privilege, here is the Moki Exit. The route is probably only used by canyoneers doing the Mind Benders. Plenty of big holds, but the quality of the rock is highly suspect. I have the exit rated 5.4 with some exposure (4th class scrambling?).

52500

52501

52502

52503

The pics above are not mine.... I swiped them out of someones Picasa account.

[canyondevil]

Ok, since I started this mess, I hope if nothing else it is a learning experience for us and others in the future. I appreciate everyone's opinion and input. I probably should have worded the title of the thread differently. I do understand the concept of canyon trash, after all, in the canyon we cleaned up two useless slings at one anchor and adjusted the anchor at the final rap to avoid rope grooves. However, to our party it was fairly obvious that the rope was not trash. Those of us that were involved obviously have more of a biased opinion, since we were out the rope and the time/effort to set it.

That being said, lessons learned:

1. If setting a rope, leave a note.
2. If setting a rope, dont leave a good rope, as it may dissappear even with a note.
3. Wait to buy a new rope until you see if the seller is going to tear you a new one. Just kiddin, Tom. This is written in good fun, please dont spit on the new rope I ordered this morning!

Matt

[Scott Card]

Not a double standard. Every THING we leave in canyons is litter, but some of it is useful, such as webbing around anchors, bolts (in places), etc. So I remove non-useful litter. Like, I replace bright webbing with grey or black, often, but not always. Your argument, Scott, is one of "extension to extremes".

Perhaps not a double standard but certainly a judgment call where you become the judge potentially rendering a verdict of unknown consequences. You make a judgment based on your definition of "non-useful litter". That seems to be a broad judgment. What is that judgment based on? Your skill set or a rookie who is uncomfortable with the climb and exposure? Your skill set and/or what others should know if they are there? For those who have been to the Mind Benders, we know there is exposure at the exit and the landing won't be good if you slip. So again, I look at this issue perhaps a lot more forgiving than others. My assumptions are going to be, first, someone is there and will be using it. Now, if after a quick evaluation it looks weathered, old, untouched since the last storm, or obvious non-use (bird nest attached, bleached on one side...etc.) I will probably cut and remove. If it is obviously unsafe I may redo or cut, but my first assumption is not that it is "non-useful litter". Just my two pennies worth.

P.S. Sorry if I implied evil motivations. Didn't mean to. I have been known to pick up some canyon loot out of potholes, remove excess rap rings, duplicate webbing, etc.

[Sombeech]

BTW, we did find someone else's coiled rope near the exit. We didnt know if someone stashed it or if they dropped it. Since it was not ours, we left it there. Removing it was not going to benefit the community or place.

Interesting point, would this coiled rope be up for grabs under the same mindset as their fastened escape rope? Is it still "litter" if it's hidden?

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Perhaps not a double standard but certainly a judgment call where you become the judge potentially rendering a verdict of unknown consequences. You make a judgment based on your definition of "non-useful litter". That seems to be a broad judgment. What is that judgment based on? Your skill set or a rookie who is uncomfortable with the climb and exposure? Your skill set and/or what others should know if they are there? For those who have been to the Mind Benders, we know there is exposure at the exit and the landing won't be good if you slip. So again, I look at this issue perhaps a lot more forgiving than others. My assumptions are going to be, first, someone is there and will be using it. Now, if after a quick evaluation it looks weathered, old, untouched since the last storm, or obvious non-use (bird nest attached, bleached on one side...etc.) I will probably cut and remove. If it is obviously unsafe I may redo or cut, but my first assumption is not that it is "non-useful litter". Just my two pennies worth.

P.S. Sorry if I implied evil motivations. Didn't mean to. I have been known to pick up some canyon loot out of potholes, remove excess rap rings, duplicate webbing, etc.

Perhaps it was rhetorical, but I will address the question of what my personal judgments are based on, if it pleases the court.

(Bunch of action at the Supremes today and this week - thus the reference, for those who missed the obscure reference.)

I think of canyons in at least two categories: trade-routes and obscure-routes. Each year a few get shifted from obscure to trade.

In trade-routes, I want to leave very nice anchors for the noobs who are sure to follow. So I take the time to clean things up well. I usually do not remove anchors, even if I do not use them, unless the downclimbs are very easy. I have re-rigged anchors for rappels because I found them ugly or worn, and then downclimbed rather than rappelling. At the moment, I am somewhat broken, so I rappel things I would normally downclimb - thank you assorted partners for your patience.

In things we consider more obscure, I would clean up anchors we don't use for rappels.

Whether and when something becomes a trade-route is pretty grey.

There are other people who might use that exit out of N Fork Robbers Roost, people we might more think of as Environmental Extremist Advanced Curmudgeonly Backpackers.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Ok, since I started this mess,

:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_E5tv7Vm0fsY/TFNonQuUVFI/AAAAAAAAAHc/-zDdxKLY0JA/s1600/fdh.jpg

[Scott Card]

What? We are only on page 2. :lol8:

[bbrim55]

Wow! I'm new to Bogley but this became a big deal really fast. My buddy and I drove down friday night and camped at the top of the mesa where the moki exit puts out. We started hiking the road to the trailhead just after 9 and at no time saw another vehicle or any sign of other canyoneers. We descended the canyon in just under five hours and followed a group of three footprints the entire time. When we got to the Moki exit our perception was that someone, whoever descended the canyon previous to us, had left a rope. Following canyon etiquette we cleaned it, as we have been doing throughout Utah for years. Again, at this time we had to indication of any other people in the area at the time.

I'm sorry our actions were interpreted as theft and we would be happy to return the gear to its rightful owner. Feel free to message me.

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues. Also, when attaching a rope to ascend it helps if its not a dynamic one. Lastly, if no one in your group is capable of an exposed 5.4 move and the alternative is having to spend the night trapped it would be wiser to plan canyons where such skills are not required.

[hank moon]

What? We are only on page 2. :lol8:

Yes, the Dead Horse Act of 1997 clearly states:

"...whosoever and wherefore the shall of thingness that pages amplitude must exceed 5-ish prior to said designation..."

[hank moon]

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues.


The number of possible explanations for the given scenario was high, though some had reduced it to one based on assumption. Now it is back to one, with fun explanatory facts. I like this ending :mrgreen:

[canyondevil]

Wow! I'm new to Bogley but this became a big deal really fast. My buddy and I drove down friday night and camped at the top of the mesa where the moki exit puts out. We started hiking the road to the trailhead just after 9 and at no time saw another vehicle or any sign of other canyoneers. We descended the canyon in just under five hours and followed a group of three footprints the entire time. When we got to the Moki exit our perception was that someone, whoever descended the canyon previous to us, had left a rope. Following canyon etiquette we cleaned it, as we have been doing throughout Utah for years. Again, at this time we had to indication of any other people in the area at the time.

I'm sorry our actions were interpreted as theft and we would be happy to return the gear to its rightful owner. Feel free to message me.

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues. Also, when attaching a rope to ascend it helps if its not a dynamic one. Lastly, if no one in your group is capable of an exposed 5.4 move and the alternative is having to spend the night trapped it would be wiser to plan canyons where such skills are not required.

pm sent. Thanks for responding.

[reverse_dyno]

Does that mean that when I go backpacking and decide to go fishing at a nearby lake I need to leave a note on my tent or ratagonia is going to clean up my entire camp? Or does he only do that when I camp in a Canyon? I backpack all over Utah and I need to know these things. If I am three days in and he takes my entire camp; tent, stove, food, extra cloths, I could end up dead! Does every piece of gear need a note on it or just the tent? How about the gear in the tent?

When I bear bag my food I also never leave a note on it, do I need to? If I do will the bears read it and not mistake it for litter?

These Utah rules are weird. I have stashed gear in many different countries and I have never worried about someone taking it; well at least not until I moved here and read this set of posts.

Thanks for the info!!!

[Brian in SLC]

Does that mean that when I go backpacking and decide to go fishing at a nearby lake I need to leave a note on my tent or ratagonia is going to clean up my entire camp?

If that was your tent up Butler Fork in BCC, with the case or two of empty beer cans, the stanky old mattress, and a few other items, sorry, but, it was an eyesore. I tossed the whole stinkin' mess in the dumpter by REI.

These aren't Utah rules. Fixed ropes are even considered abandoned by the BLM and they'll remove them in a a day, usually, if untended.

I'd say, quit treating our public land like your own private gear stash and everything will be just super...

Ha ha!

I see even the BLM has special considerations for geo-caches.

Actually, in most countries in Europe, they'll liberate your gear stashed in your car if you leave it unattended. Where you stashin' gear, some remote place in Antarctica?

Actually, ever come across an old tent in the backcountry, where it looks like someone hasn't been there in awhile? Gives me the willies...always worried about finding someone who's not there still hangin' around...if you know what I mean...

Blue tarp at high camp a few years ago on Aconcagua. Yeah, don't lift that thing up...pretty grim lookin' dude takin' a dirt nap...uck.

Lot of gear caches just turn into garbage after a few years....

[spinesnaper]

Excellent shade-tree lawyering, Ken.

But the question is how does property abandonment on BLM land managed under the guidelines this particular area is managed under. Individuals do not have the right to abandon private property on the public lands with an expectation of reclaiming it. Certainly not after 4 years, 11 months.

Clearly, I am declining to do the counter shade-tree lawyering required to refute your claim.

Tom

Shucks Tom, is that a compliment?:shock2:

Unless BLM refers to another country, then yes this law applies as does the common law concept behind this. There actually is a public interest in not removing a rope a party has placed with the intent to return and use this to facilitate their safe exit from public land.

Removal of the rope might even be considered reckless, and the person removing the rope criminally liable if members of the party are injured in the process of climbing the rock face without the benefit of the rope. (I may not be an attorney but I am married to one:haha:)

How would you feel if you lowered your canyoneering partner 300 feet to the bottom of the last rap in Heaps to discover that some fellow citizen removed your stashed 300 ft rope?:angryfire:

Ken

[Brian in SLC]

How would you feel if you lowered your canyoneering partner 300 feet to the bottom of the last rap in Heaps to discover that some fellow citizen removed your stashed 300 ft rope?

Tom, didn't that happen to someone we know? I seem to dimly recall...

They ended up having to pass the knot and leave their two 60m ropes tied together?

Ahh...who was that? Few years ago.

[spinesnaper]

Wow! I'm new to Bogley but this became a big deal really fast. My buddy and I drove down friday night and camped at the top of the mesa where the moki exit puts out. We started hiking the road to the trailhead just after 9 and at no time saw another vehicle or any sign of other canyoneers. We descended the canyon in just under five hours and followed a group of three footprints the entire time. When we got to the Moki exit our perception was that someone, whoever descended the canyon previous to us, had left a rope. Following canyon etiquette we cleaned it, as we have been doing throughout Utah for years. Again, at this time we had to indication of any other people in the area at the time.

I'm sorry our actions were interpreted as theft and we would be happy to return the gear to its rightful owner. Feel free to message me.

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues. Also, when attaching a rope to ascend it helps if its not a dynamic one. Lastly, if no one in your group is capable of an exposed 5.4 move and the alternative is having to spend the night trapped it would be wiser to plan canyons where such skills are not required.

Bogley. It's a beautiful thing. And here we thought you guys were dirt bags, err I mean diligent environmentalists. :haha:

Ken

[Scott P]

If Hinterstosser was alive today, what would he say?:naughty:

Anyway, I can see both sides of the issue. I have left a rope at that exit before and we didn't leave a note. If I do it again, I guess I would.



The route is probably only used by canyoneers doing the Mind Benders.


South Fork too and South Fork and out Moki exit is usually more than a one day trip.

[ratagonia]

Tom, didn't that happen to someone we know? I seem to dimly recall...

They ended up having to pass the knot and leave their two 60m ropes tied together?

Ahh...who was that? Few years ago.

Bonnie Davis. Went back 2 weeks later to retrieve it... "epic".

If someone walked off with my rope there, I would consider it unfortunate, but not theft until proven so. I'd keep a backup 300'er in the car so we could complete the canyon and retrieve ropes, though it might take a while!

Tom

[Audilard]

Yeah! A happy ending!

[Scott Card]

What a shame it has to be over and so close to page 4.........




:lol8:

[hank moon]

What a shame it has to be over and so close to page 4....

Well! Can you BeLEEve how long it took for the thieves to fess up to their crimery? Let's beat on that for awhile, eh?

[ghawk]

Well! Can you BeLEEve how long it took for the thieves to fess up to their crimery? Let's beat on that for awhile, eh?

:nod: I calculated the time it took for the culprits (posted yesterday at 6:27 pm) to respond to Canyondevil (posted 8:55 am) and that adds up to 9 HOURS AND 32 MINUTES before they fessed up to their dastardly deed! :nono: I'm pretty sure, according to a legal book I read once, that anything over 6 hours is prosecutabable by a law I read about in another book. Embarrassing to the community really... Imagine what climbers must be saying about us now... :angryfire:

[Iceaxe]

Wow! I'm new to Bogley but this became a big deal really fast. My buddy and I drove down friday night and camped at the top of the mesa where the moki exit puts out. We started hiking the road to the trailhead just after 9 and at no time saw another vehicle or any sign of other canyoneers. We descended the canyon in just under five hours and followed a group of three footprints the entire time. When we got to the Moki exit our perception was that someone, whoever descended the canyon previous to us, had left a rope. Following canyon etiquette we cleaned it, as we have been doing throughout Utah for years. Again, at this time we had to indication of any other people in the area at the time.

I'm sorry our actions were interpreted as theft and we would be happy to return the gear to its rightful owner. Feel free to message me.

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues. Also, when attaching a rope to ascend it helps if its not a dynamic one. Lastly, if no one in your group is capable of an exposed 5.4 move and the alternative is having to spend the night trapped it would be wiser to plan canyons where such skills are not required.

It's amazing the amount of trouble we go to around here to get folks to step up and make that first post. :lol8:

Welcome to Bogley. :2thumbs:

[Deathcricket]

Wow! I'm new to Bogley but this became a big deal really fast. My buddy and I drove down friday night and camped at the top of the mesa where the moki exit puts out. We started hiking the road to the trailhead just after 9 and at no time saw another vehicle or any sign of other canyoneers. We descended the canyon in just under five hours and followed a group of three footprints the entire time. When we got to the Moki exit our perception was that someone, whoever descended the canyon previous to us, had left a rope. Following canyon etiquette we cleaned it, as we have been doing throughout Utah for years. Again, at this time we had to indication of any other people in the area at the time.

I'm sorry our actions were interpreted as theft and we would be happy to return the gear to its rightful owner. Feel free to message me.

Next time, please don't jump to conclusions. The beauty of this site is that we can resolve these issues. Also, when attaching a rope to ascend it helps if its not a dynamic one. Lastly, if no one in your group is capable of an exposed 5.4 move and the alternative is having to spend the night trapped it would be wiser to plan canyons where such skills are not required.

Welcome to Bogley and that is some epic PWNAGE for a 1st post. :2thumbs:

You rock! Hope you stick around man. :haha:

[msmnificent]

What a shame it has to be over and so close to page 4.........
:lol8:

I'll do my part to get this to page 4...
Besides, only one part of the mystery has been solved. We know who took Devil's rope, but we still don't have an answer for the other rope that was coiled there at the top of that climb-out. Whose is it and why was it left there?

Clock is ticking...

[Brian in SLC]

And...is it still there and who's gonna snag it?

Geez, wonder if its a dynamic rope? Ooooohhh, bouncy bouncy!

Maybe someone will use it for a rope swing off a nearby arch...

Ha ha...

[bowjunkie]

tic toc tic toc !!!! sorry couldn't help it rofl

Oh and ya what DC said welcome to Bogley :2thumbs:

[spinesnaper]

The take home lesson is tag your rope and just in case that doesn't work, set up a hidden game trail camera so you have incriminating video to post on Bogley.:haha:

Ken

[Scott Card]

Well! Can you BeLEEve how long it took for the thieves to fess up to their crimery? Let's beat on that for awhile, eh?

This board is better than Cops! Bogley SVU!!!!

[hank moon]

IF I were the thieves, now that I know the identity of that nutjob who left the rope out in the middle of a sand waste, i'd sue him for littering, waste removal services, and protecting a canyon exit with a climbing rope. Hey, Maybe they could use a law-man?

[hank moon]

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

[Scott Card]

IF I were the thieves, now that I know the identity of that nutjob who left the rope out in the middle of a sand waste, i'd sue him for littering, waste removal services, and protecting a canyon exit with a climbing rope. Hey, Maybe they could use a law-man? Yes, you need one. It is ROBBER'S Roost after all. Probably ought to pack heat on your harness.





:haha:

[ndonaldj]

Probably the greatest thread I have ever read through.

[Felicia]

Yes, you need one. It is ROBBER'S Roost after all. Probably ought to pack heat on your harness.





:haha:


All the more reason to have a "rope gun" on your canyoneering team. :-)

[oldno7]

It is ROBBER'S Roost after all. Probably ought to pack heat on your harness.





:haha:

One thing about rope thieves---when you catch em, all ya need is a good stout tree.......:rope:

[Scott Card]

Page 4... I am so proud. :cry1:

[oldno7]

Page 4... I am so proud. :cry1:

in bogley--all things are possible...:nod::lol8:

[Summit2Sea]

Not sure why anyone would choose to be malicious and steal someones rope... That's just asking for bad Karma...

[spinesnaper]

Not sure why anyone would choose to be malicious and steal someones rope... That's just asking for bad Karma...

Here we go again.:haha:

[hank moon]

Yes, you need one. It is ROBBER'S Roost after all.

Hee hee!

[Iceaxe]

This thread is beginning to read similar to the way someone eating a muffin talks.

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

Not sure why anyone would choose to be malicious and steal someones rope... That's just asking for bad Karma...

I know!!! I bet there was a hoodie involved.









Sorry, I'll go away....:haha:

[Iceaxe]

I know!!! I bet there was a hoodie involved.


And a back-wards hat.... when I watch Cops the thieves are always wearing a back-wards hat.

[Branin]

And a back-wards hat.... when I watch Cops the thieves are always wearing a back-wards hat.
So if I wear my hat backwards does it excuse me if I take something? How about my helmet?

[Iceaxe]

So if I wear my hat backwards does it excuse me if I take something? How about my helmet?

I'm still trying to find out were you buy a back-wards hat... I asked a youngin' the other day who's pants were falling down where to buy a back-wards hat, because I can only find the forward type hat.... the youngin' just looked at me funny as he adjusted his pants to hang below his butt and walked away.

I tried to flash him some bogley gang signs (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?34547) but it didn't pay off....

[Audilard]

I tried to flash him some bogley gang signs (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?34547) but it didn't pay off....

:lol8::2thumbs:

[denaliguide]

what? we got bogley gang signs?

[oldno7]

what? we got bogley gang signs?

Where the hell were you at the last board meeting?

We talked about these for the majority of the time, until Shane got drunk and passed out.

Beech had to haul him out cause he was slobbering on the carpet.

Then disco sent the passed out Shane to the basement because he thought he saw some butt crack and was offended.

well maybe next time(come on page 5)

[Iceaxe]

We have an entire thread on bogley gang signs
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?34547


Acca and beech liked the simple "b"

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27657&stc=1&d=1238023908

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27658&stc=1&d=1238024870

[Sombeech]

omg..... Doesn't this forum have a delete key for old embarrassing threads?

[Dan-wild]

Bogley is getting so personal....:eek2:

[ratagonia]

Good to see you guys kept busy while I was out having fun...

:moses:

[Scott Card]

Good to see you guys kept busy while I was out having fun...

:moses:
Rub it in......:fitz:

[Reverso]

I have ascended the Moki exit without rope many times and it can be done fairly safely. If you do slip it generally means a slide back down and your buddies laughing at you (have done this too). I see more and more crap left down in the roost area....including a semi-permanent rope at the Moki a couple years ago...I like to play fair, that last little climb is a part of the adventure and challenge...Should we install an elevator on that excellent free-hanging rap? Also, if ya'll see me out there, please steal my truck. You won't regret it at all, its really better than it looks...

[Scott Card]

Also, if ya'll see me out there, please steal my truck. You won't regret it at all, its really better than it looks...

Tie a rope to the hitch and dangle it over the edge. Someone will clean it up for you. :lol8:

[peakbaggers]

Kinda like fishing for canyoneeers. Who/what will take the bait. :crazy:

[Scott Card]

Page 5 :kickit: :lol8:

[accadacca]

Does that mean that when I go backpacking and decide to go fishing at a nearby lake I need to leave a note on my tent or ratagonia is going to clean up my entire camp? Or does he only do that when I camp in a Canyon? I backpack all over Utah and I need to know these things. If I am three days in and he takes my entire camp; tent, stove, food, extra cloths, I could end up dead! Does every piece of gear need a note on it or just the tent? How about the gear in the tent?

When I bear bag my food I also never leave a note on it, do I need to? If I do will the bears read it and not mistake it for litter?

These Utah rules are weird. I have stashed gear in many different countries and I have never worried about someone taking it; well at least not until I moved here and read this set of posts.

Thanks for the info!!!
:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[davehuth]

Ok, soon to be moving on to page 6 I presume....

Some common places to leave a rope:

300ft into Egypt 2
Arscenic
Alcatraz
300ft into Red Hollow
exiit of Three canyon
South fork of NoMans (any canyon done down and back for that matter)

I'm sure there is a long list of published routes where it is really convenient and common to leave a rope either at the entrance or the exit, or fixed to enable return.

[davehuth]

This thread is beginning to read similar to the way someone eating a muffin talks.

:popcorn:

So there's these 2 muffins in an oven.
They're both sitting, just chilling and getting baked.
And one of them says "Damn, it's hot in here!"
And the other muffin replies "Holy Crap, a talking muffin!"

[denaliguide]

please steal my truck. You won't regret it at all, its really better than it looks...

don't forget to leave the keys in it.

[goofball]

wow.

what a bunch of pathetic ****s.

and a serious issue. someone leaves gear to ensure their safety, and the vast bulk of replies are entirely unconcerned. i do not need that (fill in the blank), so nobody does, and if they do they shouldn't be there. so a (fill in the blank) placed by someone who feels the need for it to ensure their safety is trash because those who don't feel the need for it say it is ? so by leaving the (fill in the blank) what horrible and irreversible damage to that place is going to ensue. how many animals will die, or water sources be poisoned, or earth be eroded. what environmental impact is there. whatever it is i am sure the life of the human being who may need that (fill in the blank) for their safety, real or perceived, is totally worth the taking because it offends your advanced sensibilities of who should do what and how when they play outside. exactly why so many people are turned off by the vocal minority of pathetic ****s who's claim to fame is "a great outdoors person" hope i never run in to any of you sorry ****s anytime, i'll keep trying my best.

[spinesnaper]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn: