Rope Choice

[Kgrizzle]

I know it is not ideal. But beside the extra weight (and I suppose extra friction), is there any really serious drawback to canyoneering with 10mm dynamic climbing rope?

[Brian in SLC]

Only having to listen to some goofballs proclaim, "oohhh, bouncy bouncy". Ha ha.

Like climbers never rappel on their ropes...silly.

[tcott]

If you are doing anything with water the climbing rope will get a lot heavier and a lot stretchier. It will also wear your rope out pretty quick because of the stretch causing the rope to saw on the edges as people bounce down the raps.

[Audilard]

One other drawback is the stretch when doing a 100+ ft rope pull.

[jman]

We once used a dynamic 6mm on bridal veil falls over the last tier of 200feet - we pulled probably 15feet to get a full 1foot of the 8.3mm Imlay rope down. Big mistake, very tiring, never again.

[ratagonia]

But for normal, beginning canyoneering, yeah, not ideal but not really a problem. Go for it.

T

[skiclimb3287]

My first few canyons were done with a 10.5 dynamic climbing rope. Worked fine to start out with, but the extra weight and stretch got old real quick. I will never forget running Pine Creek with it. I felt like I was on a bungee cord for the final 100 ft rappel. Got a Canyon Fire shortly after that!

[Kgrizzle]

Thanks for the advice all. We will see how it goes. My next investment will be an 8.3mm Canyon Fire. Its what I learned on.

[ilipichicuma]

I agree that it's killer on the pull. Otherwise they're generally fine, though I haven't taken them in water that much.

[Moose Droppings]

I would at least advise against dragging a dynamic rope through a wet canyon for various reasons.

-Despite the "dry-treatment" it still soaks up the water to the point of saturation and becomes a magnate for sand, which in turn causes unecessary energy expenditure during the pulls. not good when the day marches on and you've become wet, cold, and tired.

-Also, when the cord is wet, sandy and swelled, it eats through hardware (biners, rap/belay devices, and rap rings) at an alarming rate.

-Lastly, it becomes an unusable cord for lead climbing anymore because of all the sand that works its way into the core. the $$ that you would've spent on a replacement dynamic lead rope could have gotten you outfitted with two new static cords.

Those are the three main take-aways from my first exploit into canyoneering late late century when i dragged a 10.5mm dynamic and an 8.8mm static tag-line through Behunin. it was the driving factor behind our half-day "glorified hiking" juant - cum - daylong big-wall climbers survived by eating their pride epic through Behunin.

serious business... best to get the static cords now, because face it, your going to enjoy the sport...

[Brian in SLC]

If you are doing anything with water the climbing rope will get a lot heavier and a lot stretchier. It will also wear your rope out pretty quick because of the stretch causing the rope to saw on the edges as people bounce down the raps.

Really? Any data to support that?

I'm just not seeing it. For example, out the door, a 10.5mm dynamic climbing rope made by Bluewater clocks in at 68 g/m. Their static rope of the same size is quite a bit heavier, like 78 g/m. That's before you add any water. And, for "stretchiness", the static rope has around 3.8% elongation, while the dynamic climbing rope has 7.2%. I'm not buying that folks can really "feel" that difference.

Why, exactly, do dynamic ropes, a fair number of which have a dry treatment on them, suck up water at a higher weight, than a static rope? Given the same diameter of rope, I guess I'm not understanding the difference.

And, if a dynamic rope is wet, don't they loose stretch typically? I don't think they become "a lot stretchier". Maybe the opposite?

Geez, really, climbers rappel all the time and they don't haul static ropes around just to rappel on. And, stretch doesn't cause the rope to wear out faster, poor user technique does.

I think the difference might be noticable when folks don't know how to rappel smoothly. If you're bouncing, either on purpose or because you've not rigged optimally, then you're not doing it correctly and the type of rope won't matter. Easier to blame it on a dynamic rope I suppose.

And, all that extra stetch when you pull 100 feet of dynamic rope? At, what, five feet at a time if you're pulling it in big arm lengths, what's that? Works out to so little extra work I'm not sure I could calculate it, especially if you have a decently positioned anchor with low friction.

That said, I'd much rather have a dedicated rope for canyons. Which, when I started doing a bunch of canyons, were retired climbing ropes (never to see a climb again anyhow). Once those got trashed, yeah, bring on the BW canyon pro's, Sterling, Imlay, etc.

Sillyness!

[ghawk]

The materials making up the dynamic rope seem to absorb more water to me. I used one for a few years and the weight jumped a noticeable amount when wet. I didn't notice a change in stretchiness due to water absorbing. I do notice dynamic stretching much more than static. This will chew the rope up more as it slides over an edge and makes the rap less controlled as you bounce around. I don't know the data or numbers around it... I just know the static is much better to me. No one is saying you can't do it with a dynamic... Just that the static is nicer. :cool2:

[ndonaldj]

Dynamic ropes get WAY stretchier when wet. I tried climbing on a rope that had recently gotten really wet, and there was so much stretch that we didn't dare climb at all that day, the rope stayed that stretchy for like a week too. It was a Bluewater double dry core. Dynamic rope absorbing more water would probably have to do with what the rope is made out of, a dynamic rope mainly made of Nylon it will absorb a good amount more than a static rope made of 100% Polyester. I've heard that if a rope is worn out and fuzzy it will absorb more water than a slick new rope too.

Here, read this: http://www.zionadventures.com/ZBlog/gear-reviews/polyester-vs-nylon-ropes-which-absorb-more-water/

[hank moon]

Why, exactly, do dynamic ropes, a fair number of which have a dry treatment on them, suck up water at a higher weight, than a static rope? Given the same diameter of rope, I guess I'm not understanding the difference.


Most dynamic/climbing ropes are made of nylon, which soaks up water like a sponge compared to hydrophobic fibers (e.g. Polyester, Dyneema) used in most canyoneering ropes. Once nylon fibers have absorbed a bunch of water, they become stretchier, weaker, and less abrasion resistant. Fortunately, these effects are temporary and nylon regains its original properties when dried. So-called "dry" climbing ropes have treatments that reduce these effects when new, but the treatment usually wears out long before the rope does.

Some static ropes are also made of nylon, but most canyon ropes are made of more hydrophobic fibers such as polyester (e.g. Imlay Canyon Gear ropes) or other. BW canyon pro has a Dyneema core and polyester sheath.

some links:

http://www.zionadventures.com/ZBlog/gear-reviews/polyester-vs-nylon-ropes-which-absorb-more-water/

http://www.sdplastics.com/nylon.html

[Brian in SLC]

Ahhh...how the heck did I miss this testing? Nice!

Nylon is nylon, but, concur that the different fibers make a difference.



- The used climbing rope absorbed 42.4% of its weight in water.
- The used canyon rope absorbed 22.4% of its weight in water.
- The brand new canyon rope absorbed 19.1% of its weight in water.


Chris says to say hi, Hank!

[tcott]

Tom did a water absorption test last year showing that a dynamic climbing rope absorbed over 20% more water than a polyester canyon rope.

Singing rock has an article showing even more water absorption, up to 59% of the original rope weight.
http://www.singingrock.com/article.asp?nArticleID=535&nLanguageID=2

Elongation on most canyon ropes is 1% - 2%, not 3.8%, making the 7.2% a much bigger difference. Also nylon gets significantly more stretchy when wet, I don't have stats on that just personal experience.

[jwurst]

I think that most of the water weight is water that clings to the rope due to surface tension rather than actually being from the saturation of the material. Dynamic climbing ropes tend to be made loose, giving them lots of space inside to keep water. Canyon ropes and some other static ropes tend to have a tighter weave that doesn't leave much space for water.

Most of my ropes are nylon: 9mm PMI max-wear. It is very hard and stiff and I've never even noticed any weight difference when wet. My older 11mm Bluewater static (now retired) did gain enough weight to notice.

[jwurst]

And, for "stretchiness", the static rope has around 3.8% elongation, while the dynamic climbing rope has 7.2%. I'm not buying that folks can really "feel" that difference.
I find the stretch to be the most noticeable when ascending (I'm also a caver so I do a fair bit of that). It can be frustrating at the bottom of a big pit when you have to ascend up 20 feet of rope before you ever leave the ground--a waste of energy. Once on the rope, though, the bounce doesn't make much difference as far as ascending or rappelling. If anything, I find a dynamic rope to be nicer to rappel on because it is so soft and smooth. That probably has more to do with the suppleness of the rope than the stretch. The main problem with a dynamic rope in a canyon is that they aren't as durable.

[ndonaldj]

I find the stretch to be the most noticeable when ascending (I'm also a caver so I do a fair bit of that). It can be frustrating at the bottom of a big pit when you have to ascend up 20 feet of rope before you ever leave the ground--a waste of energy. Once on the rope, though, the bounce doesn't make much difference as far as ascending or rappelling. If anything, I find a dynamic rope to be nicer to rappel on because it is so soft and smooth. That probably has more to do with the suppleness of the rope than the stretch. The main problem with a dynamic rope in a canyon is that they aren't as durable.

You cave on dynamic?

[Brian in SLC]

Elongation on most canyon ropes is 1% - 2%, not 3.8%, making the 7.2% a much bigger difference. Also nylon gets significantly more stretchy when wet, I don't have stats on that just personal experience.

Most? Let's look:

Sterling
Canyon Tech: 3.8%
C-IV: 2.0%

Bluewater
Canyon Pro: 2.0%
Canyon Pro DS: 1.4%
Canyon Extreme: 2.6%
Canyonline: 5.9%
Canyonator: 1.28%
Canyon: 3.8%
Canyon DS: 4.9%

Imlay
Canyon: ??
Canyon Fire: 1.2%
Canyonero: ??

Tom, fill in the blanks if you know 'em!

As far as nylon getting more stretchy when wet? Not sure about that.

Sterling says: “Another problem with wet ropes is that when core filaments become wet they lose their strength in addition to losing their dynamic elongation properties.”

Singing Rock: “After soaking in water a rope becomes 4-5% longer, which can be correlated to the 5-10% increase of the impact force at the first fall on the Dodero machine.” "It has also been noted that the impact force at the first fall with the wet rope is significantly larger (5-10%), as if the rope had become more rigid than the dry one. This could be due to increased fibre-fibre friction as well as to the increased length of the rope. A rope that is already stretched is indeed more resistant to strain, more "rigid". The stretching - average 3-5% - measured on wet ropes just after removal from water is not negligible compared to the strain that occurs in the Dodero test (30-35%)."

To me, that implys that a wet nylon climbing rope actually increases in length, and, loses its stretch, which is why the impact force is so much higher. Dunno for sure, though. Hank?

If you're climbing, you don't really have much choice other than to use a dynamic rope. For canyons, there's a huge number of choices (which is great, actually).

If all I was doing was waterfall rappelling, my canyon rope choice might be different than if I was doing the more sketchy type of exploration that some folks are doing, where a light rope is nice for space and weight restrictions, but, I'm not sure I'd want a super low stretch model. Bad anchors and anchoring might not be as tolerant to a mistake made on a low stretch rope...

Variety is nice, and, the gear monger in me likes to have a number of tools in the tool box. Rope sellers like this too, I'm sure.

The flip side of this, is, its a poor carpenter who blames his tools.

Use what you got, and, be somewhat competent.

Its kinda funny, though, that the only folks who complain about dynamic climbing ropes being stretchy or bouncy on rappels are canyoneers. Climbers just don't give it much of a thought. Its pretty rare to see a thread on any climbing forum about climbing ropes being "bouncy" on rappel (not sure I can recall one).

[ratagonia]

Tom did a water absorption test last year showing that a dynamic climbing rope absorbed over 20% more water than a polyester canyon rope.

Singing rock has an article showing even more water absorption, up to 59% of the original rope weight.
http://www.singingrock.com/article.asp?nArticleID=535&nLanguageID=2

Elongation on most canyon ropes is 1% - 2%, not 3.8%, making the 7.2% a much bigger difference. Also nylon gets significantly more stretchy when wet, I don't have stats on that just personal experience.

"Static Ropes" is a general class, and elongation will vary substantially between brands and models. I just checked the test data, and Imlay ropes (Polyester/Polyester) stretch between 1% and 2% at 400 lbs, or likely between 1/2% and 1% at 200 lbs.

I think it makes a big difference, and prefer ropes that are very static, especially when rappelling in water or when the rope is wet. But then again, I have gotten very used to using truly static ropes.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I think that most of the water weight is water that clings to the rope due to surface tension rather than actually being from the saturation of the material. Dynamic climbing ropes tend to be made loose, giving them lots of space inside to keep water. Canyon ropes and some other static ropes tend to have a tighter weave that doesn't leave much space for water.

Most of my ropes are nylon: 9mm PMI max-wear. It is very hard and stiff and I've never even noticed any weight difference when wet. My older 11mm Bluewater static (now retired) did gain enough weight to notice.

Yes. There is absorption (internal) and adsorption (external). Nylon does both, as the nylon molecule hydrates by forming weak bonds with some water molecules; thus some absorption takes place, which also changed the physical properties of nylon (=weaker, less tough, longer, self-lubricating). Polyester and nylon both adsorb water, but the details depend on a lot of variables. There is no reason to think that these two different chemicals would have the same effective surface tension and therefore the same amount of water clinging to their exterior.

The weave of the rope might also make a difference in both of these. I can see a tightly woven rope resisting penetration of the water for an hour, whereas a loosely woven rope might not.

Please notice in the testing protocol that after soaking for an hour, the ropes were hung up to drip for 10 minutes before being weighed.

Bluewater makes quite a few different models of static rope; some are tightly woven and some are not. PMI makes several different models, the max-wear being very, VERY tightly woven. An unusual rope.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Its kinda funny, though, that the only folks who complain about dynamic climbing ropes being stretchy or bouncy on rappels are canyoneers. Climbers just don't give it much of a thought. Its pretty rare to see a thread on any climbing forum about climbing ropes being "bouncy" on rappel (not sure I can recall one).

You mean, people who have only ever rappelled on dynamic climbing ropes have little to no awareness that actual static ropes have significantly different properties?

Tom

[ratagonia]

As far as nylon getting more stretchy when wet? Not sure about that.

Sterling says: “Another problem with wet ropes is that when core filaments become wet they lose their strength in addition to losing their dynamic elongation properties.”

Singing Rock: “After soaking in water a rope becomes 4-5% longer, which can be correlated to the 5-10% increase of the impact force at the first fall on the Dodero machine.” "It has also been noted that the impact force at the first fall with the wet rope is significantly larger (5-10%), as if the rope had become more rigid than the dry one. This could be due to increased fibre-fibre friction as well as to the increased length of the rope. A rope that is already stretched is indeed more resistant to strain, more "rigid". The stretching - average 3-5% - measured on wet ropes just after removal from water is not negligible compared to the strain that occurs in the Dodero test (30-35%)."

To me, that implies that a wet nylon climbing rope actually increases in length, and, loses its stretch, which is why the impact force is so much higher. Dunno for sure, though. Hank?


Uh, let's not lose track of an important parameter here. A dynamic climbing rope is not just a rope made of nylon. After being made, it is (usually) electrostatically treated to achieve the desired dynamic properties. My (feeble) understanding is that the treatment causes the nylon molecules to crinkle, and the overall length of the rope decreases. The addition of weakly bonded water molecules may un-crinkle some of the crinks (that's a technical term) so the rope loses dynamic properties and gets a little longer.

Also, wetness tends to increase sheath slippage, either by making the sheath bigger or by lubricating the interface. When we rappel, we rappel on the sheath - the core is just there to keep the sheath spread out. Many of the problems I have seen rappelling on wet rope is due to the sheath slippage, rather than to other factors.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

You mean, people who have only ever rappelled on dynamic climbing ropes have little to no awareness that actual static ropes have significantly different properties?

Nope. I give climbers more credit than that.

Static ropes, as a catagory, are significantly different unto themselves.

Dynamic ropes, for me, and, as a general rule, seem to have better "hand" and are more pleasant for me to rappel on. Can't recall when I've had as rough a rope as a canyon specific static line which felt like it was going to take a chunk out of my hand. Canyon Pro DS for one. Some are quire "bitey". Geez, I can almost see why folks use gloves to rappel with (ha ha!). If a canyon rope is thin and light, they tend to be fast (old BW Canyon Pro's seemed quite slick).

Might be a mindset difference too. Dynamic climbing ropes are used for going both up, and, down. For canyoning, most all of the rope use is for rappelling. So, holding a fall, carefully paying out rope to a lead climber, swapping leads, etc, all slightly different when it comes to time spent with a rope. Could account for some of the differences in "feel" folks have about their ropes.

Kind of an environment thing, too, I'd guess. Canyons and especially slots in Utah have a specific geometry to them that you descend, which, is sometimes different than your average sport climbing cliff, or, even a more traditional area with long time located standard belay/rappel perches. Maybe as the sport matures, this will change a bit over time? Anyhoo, seems like a lot of the canyon rappels down watercourses always have a bit of funky geometry to them which can tend to eat ropes over time. Ditto climbing in the Utah desert too, which, can also be hard on ropes.

Hey, looking on Sterling's site, I see a rap device called the F4. Anyone seen/used that rig? Interesting...

[dougr]

Thanks for the advice all. We will see how it goes. My next investment will be an 8.3mm Canyon Fire. Its what I learned on.

Spring for a technora sheathed rope if you can. Monster toughness. Sterling C-IV for 0.87/ft here (http://www.nwbackpack.com/products/sterling_canyon_c-iv.php). This is an unbeatable price for the single best rope for canyoneering IMO. Great hand, tough sheath, 3.2 lbs/100' light, hydrophobic, and as cheap as the low cost polyester ropes available elsewhere.

[hank moon]

Spring for a technora sheathed rope if you can. Monster toughness. Sterling C-IV for 0.87/ft here (http://www.nwbackpack.com/products/sterling_canyon_c-iv.php). This is an unbeatable price for the single best rope for canyoneering IMO. Great hand, tough sheath, 3.2 lbs/100' light, hydrophobic, and as cheap as the low cost polyester ropes available elsewhere.

Hmmm. I'm a bit leery of polypropylene for rope core. Wet canyons only?

[dougr]

I understand the polypro core hesitance and cannot fault eschewing such. I have technora sheath, nylon core ropes as well. But in practice, canyon ropes die their early deaths from the wear on the sheaths. Cores are secondary imo and I go nothing but full technora now. Polypro for wet and nylon for dry is an admirable compromise if you want sets of rope. The soft core yields such a great hand.

edit: I was thinking about your leeriness more Hank. I was the same way before I bought the C-IV. In fact I didn't buy the C-IV for a while, getting the technora/nylon variants from BW and Sterling. With an MBS of only 4650, vs. 5k or even 6700 in the case of the 9mm BW CanyonLine I use, I thought I was giving up too much margin. But when you consider the 1" nylon webbing we all use and love, me included, is MBS 4k when dry, then reduced by a ring bend, then reduced when wet, and in the case of a technora/nylon having some reduction when wet, well, it all seems plenty strong. I trust my gear more now. I have faith in my knots, faith in my anchor setting, and faith in reducing sheath wear using techniques, all the while having the toughest sheath possible. Good combo that makes a paltry 4650 MBS OK in my book. Plus it's knottability is the bomb. A shame it's not more popular. I hope it's not discontinued.

edit2: Story. In a canyon some time ago I passed a group of two going slow. I went down their amazing rope. Just so silky. The guy was a well equipped vet of mostly dry canyons. I asked what it was, C-IV it turned out, and was interested after that. For those who haven't used it, it's remarkable. I don't know what else to say. Kind of like a dynamic or a valdy in feel. Very much unlike the typical feel of a tight weave poly. After finally getting one, easily my favorite. I expect wear to be outstanding as have all my technora ropes been. Never had a dual sheath, so can't comment on how much better than that.

Man I sound like a paid Sterling shill.

[ratagonia]

I understand the polypro core hesitance and cannot fault eschewing such. I have technora sheath, nylon core ropes as well. But in practice, canyon ropes die their early deaths from the wear on the sheaths. Cores are secondary imo and I go nothing but full technora now. Polypro for wet and nylon for dry is an admirable compromise if you want sets of rope. The soft core yields such a great hand.

edit: I was thinking about your leeriness more Hank. I was the same way before I bought the C-IV. In fact I didn't buy the C-IV for a while, getting the technora/nylon variants from BW and Sterling. With an MBS of only 4650, vs. 5k or even 6700 in the case of the 9mm BW CanyonLine I use, I thought I was giving up too much margin. But when you consider the 1" nylon webbing we all use and love, me included, is MBS 4k when dry, then reduced by a ring bend, then reduced when wet, and in the case of a technora/nylon having some reduction when wet, well, it all seems plenty strong. I trust my gear more now. I have faith in my knots, faith in my anchor setting, and faith in reducing sheath wear using techniques, all the while having the toughest sheath possible. Good combo that makes a paltry 4650 MBS OK in my book. Plus it's knottability is the bomb. A shame it's not more popular. I hope it's not discontinued.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree there dsr70. The issue is not the lowish breaking strength, the issue is the low melting temperature of polypro, or, more technically, the low transition temperature of polypro, transition temp being the temp at which it starts to melt and the strength goes down dramatically.

I think the key here, Hank, is the Technora sheath, which provides both physical and temporal... hmmm, temperaturish protection to the core of the rope. It would not be my first choice for the final rap in Heaps, but the CIV has been around a while, Sterling is a legit company, and I have a trust that it works for general canyoneering.

I used one last summer, and it was good. The surprise was that it rappels pretty much like an 8mm rope, rather than a 9mm. So, first time out, be sure to set it up with enough friction.


Tom :moses:

[jwurst]

You cave on dynamic?
No, certainly not. With even the most static of ropes, if you have several hundreds of feet above you then you have a fair amount of stretch.

[hank moon]

I think the key here, Hank, is the Technora sheath, which provides both physical and temporal... hmmm, temperaturish protection to the core of the rope. It would not be my first choice for the final rap in Heaps, but the CIV has been around a while, Sterling is a legit company, and I have a trust that it works for general canyoneering.

Yeah, I should have mentioned earlier that lower melting temp (and critical temp) of polypro was the concern...

Ditto last rap in Heaps. Perhaps I'm overly cautious/paranoid about polypro - would love to see/do some testing. I know some of the earlier Euro polypro ropes were specified to be used only when wet. They didn't have Technora sheaths, though...

[hank moon]

No, certainly not. With even the most static of ropes, if you have several hundreds of feet above you then you have a fair amount of stretch.

yah, Ellison's and Golondrinas come to mind as super-stretch pits

[dougr]

I'm going straight to the horse's mouth. Text of email to Sterling:

-------------------
Matt,

I have bought several Sterling ropes over the past few years, and most recently a C-IV for canyoneering. Great products you have.

The C-IV is my first polypropylene core rope. I want to know if the low melting point of the core might be of concern on certain rappels. A few questions that come to mind:

1. Do long and/or fast and/or heavy person rappels generate enough heat to penetrate a sheath and raise core temps to any appreciable degree?
2. Does the technora sheath of the C-IV specifically offer more insulation than a polyester or nylon sheath?
3. Are there any restrictions on use placed on the C-IV owing to the core?
4a. More technical, in a worst case scenario (hot day, heavy person, dry rope, fast and long rappel, rappel device that imparts maximum heat), what is a core temperature raised to in say a C-IV?
4b. More technical, what is the melting point of the C-IV's core?

Thanks for your time. I saw no technical contact link on the website, and you seemed the best source.

---------------

Will post their reply.

[Bo_Beck]

Maybe not too pertinent to the thread but certainly felt I would mention: According to Kirk Mauthner (past owner of Rigging for Rescue), there are 3 classifications of ropes. Static, Low Stretch and High Stretch "Dynamic". A static rope would be classified as one that has less than 5% elongation. Low stretch ropes fit in at 5% but less than 10% elongation, and high stretch "Dynamic" ropes are classified as greater than 10% elongation. Having rappeled on various types and manufactures of rope certainly has shown me varying differences. Most rope companies classify their rescue ropes as "Static" but I can honestly say that some of their claims seem to fit better into the "Low Stretch" category. In Zion NP we have sort of chosen the NE 7/16 KMIII rope for the last several years which has 5.1% Elongation at 2.7KN. At the critical zone (edge transition) 2.1% at 1KN. Several years ago I rappeled from the top of Angels Landing (South Face) to the ledge below. The distance was somewhere around 900', using a KMIII. I'm not quite 1KN but with gear I was close. When I arrived at the ledge I had to feed 15' or so of rope to detension. If I'd been using a high stretch rope it would have been 90' or so to detension. BIG DIFFERENCE! Same applies to jugging the Great Arch which I've done several times. It takes a while to get airborne! The Great Arch rappel/jug is about 450' I'd hate to jug the arch on a high stretch "dynamic" rope! It'd take forever to get your feet off the ground!

[dougr]

Great stories Bo.

Sent from my ICS'd Vibrant

[spinesnaper]

I think you're barking up the wrong tree there dsr70. The issue is not the lowish breaking strength, the issue is the low melting temperature of polypro, or, more technically, the low transition temperature of polypro, transition temp being the temp at which it starts to melt and the strength goes down dramatically.

I think the key here, Hank, is the Technora sheath, which provides both physical and temporal... hmmm, temperaturish protection to the core of the rope. It would not be my first choice for the final rap in Heaps, but the CIV has been around a while, Sterling is a legit company, and I have a trust that it works for general canyoneering.

I used one last summer, and it was good. The surprise was that it rappels pretty much like an 8mm rope, rather than a 9mm. So, first time out, be sure to set it up with enough friction.


Tom :moses:

Tom

That's interesting because I purchased a 300 ft length of C IV precisely for that application. C IV is an expensive sheath of technora with a light filler core. The rope is significantly lighter than 8.3 mm Canyon Fire at a higher price of course. At 300 feet, the C IV is 3 pounds lighter than the Canyon Fire of comparable length. There are some thermal studies out there for this rope. The technora is profoundly heat resistant and as I recall the sheath protects the fragile polypro core. Having said that, there is no question that the fire canyon will most likely out last the C IV and of course the value is unquestioned. My 60 m canyon rope is a Canyon Fire.

Ken

[dougr]

Ken, why do you think the Fire will outlast the C-IV? Sheath is always my problem long term, and I don't see technora being bested. My 3 are beasts compared to the many poly sheaths I've had. What am I missing? My working lengths and 60m are technora, poly are backups now. What, is the Fire's weave so tight it bests a "normal" technora weave?

Doug

[spinesnaper]

Doug

Good question. First there are a lot of people out there who love their sterling canyoneering ropes. What I am saying is that I foresee my 60 m Canyon Fire rope lasting longer at that length than the 300 ft CIV rope lasting as a working 300 ft rope. I just think that paranoia will cause me to retire this rope from this length much sooner than my 60 m rope. Although the technora is very tough, I suspect that psychologically I will be pretty intolerant of even minor sheath damage. I also suspect (and I could be wrong) longer raps are going to be tougher on ropes than shorter raps in terms of sheath abrasion. I would be interested in any insight on this issue. Of course they also say that you can destroy your brand new rope the very first time you use it in the field.

Ken

[Branin]

I was rather unimpressed with my Fire actually. It wore out FAST. Could have just been one of those weeks though... I plan to give the fire another shot someday, in the name of scientific rigor. :cool2:

(No offense to you Tom, the rope just wore out quickly).

Most of my work-horse ropes are Blue Water, of one type or another. I also have an Edleweiss nylon static line that I really like... As long as the canyon is dry.

[Brian in SLC]

I have the Sterling Canyontech. Would love to wear that thing out. My bet is, I'll probably wear out before that rope does...ha ha.

Burly cord. I've only got a few canyons on mine, but, it still looks new.

[dougr]

Great rope Brian. The Bluewater Canyonline (http://www.bluewaterropes.com/home/productsinfo.asp?Channel=Recreation&Group=&GroupKey=&Category=Ropes,%20Canyoneering&CategoryKey=&ProdKey=339)is basically the same as the Sterling Canyontech (http://www.sterlingrope.com/product/155018/CT/_/CanyonTech). Burly stuff indeed. When these fancy schmancy ropes came on the market, I wasn't hugely interested due to cost. But their lives are so much longer, and the mental peace of mind when you look up and see that skinny rope chafing on an edge is worth a lot. Plus it seems technora ropes are getting downright reasonable in price, as cheap as the polys I was buying just last year.

Doug

[dougr]

Reply from Sterling regarding the C-IV's polypro core melting...

---------------------
Doug,
Here is some additional information from our rope engineer, Jim Ewing.

We don't have any, more technical, information than what you've already provided. I can add, however, that in order for a hot rappel device to cause damage to the polypropylene core the device would have to remain in contact with the specific spot for several seconds all while maintaining the melting point temperature. In other words, there has to be focused heat and pressure in order to heat up the Technora sheath to the point where it will reach a sufficient temperature to affect the core.

Basically, you would have to try pretty hard to heat the rope up to the point where it effected the core.

[Scott Card]

Reply from Sterling regarding the C-IV's polypro core melting...

---------------------
Doug,
Here is some additional information from our rope engineer, Jim Ewing.

We don't have any, more technical, information than what you've already provided. I can add, however, that in order for a hot rappel device to cause damage to the polypropylene core the device would have to remain in contact with the specific spot for several seconds all while maintaining the melting point temperature. In other words, there has to be focused heat and pressure in order to heat up the Technora sheath to the point where it will reach a sufficient temperature to affect the core.

Basically, you would have to try pretty hard to heat the rope up to the point where it effected the core.
Moral of the story, don't lock off on the last rap in Heaps. :crazy:

[reflection]

Imlay Canyon Fire 8.3
100 ft. 3.85 lb
200 ft. 7.7 lb $160
300 ft. 11.55 $240

Sterling C-IV 9
100 ft. 3.2 lb
200 ft 6.4 lb $241
300 ft 9.6 lb $357

Imlay Canyonero 9.2
100 ft 4.2 lb
200 ft 8.4 lb $175
300 ft 12.6 lb $262

BW Canyonator 9.2
110 ft.
220 ft 9.16 lb $180
330 ft. 13.8 lb $270
___________
Data was pulled off web sites/stores. Canyons and Crags (RC) lists lengths not in 100/200/300, but in 110, 220. In my view some/many humans are brand oriented or connected. Some people will ONLY use BW ropes, or one that RC suggests or one that a WMC Canyon Director suggests (BW). Some that have used dynamic Sterling lines will try Sterling Canyon ropes. Those that know of or are connected with TJ/Imlay lines will use and try his ropes. Years back I got to try and report on Sterlings newest and first 9m canyon rope. Since then I've NOT kept up with all the lines. Above, I list four fairly popular cyn ropes, 8 & 9 m.

Sterling C-IV 9. Weight, feel and slide of the rope acts like an 8. Personally I like the light weight; seems sturdy enough; I've only slid on others lines though.
Canyon Fire 8.3 I have a 200 and two 120's and have used them extenisvely in wet and dry canyons. To date the ropes have never faltered and have a semi stiff feel.
Canyonero 9.2 I used one in Englestead last season and used another one in Behunin/Spry. Nice line to single strand on via big drops. Beefy strong A-1 rope.
Canyonator 9.2. I have NOT used the rope. Know many people connected to RC that have used and enjoy this line.

Best rope out there? The one that weighs next to nothing when I/we carry it - for hours. And the one that is sturdy, strong and risk free when rapping single strand.
Or, I'd rather carry a lite 8m rope and rap on a (heavier) sturdier 9m line. (rapping on the 8.3 Cyn Fire is 'no problem and no risk' in my view).

Cost, access/availability/shipping is another factor to some. Often, discounts exist. I still have old BW 8m canyon pro ropes. They are light but falter often - I'll never buy them again. When the 8.3 cyn fire came out it basically displaced all 8-9mm ropes in my view, and that's what I use most of the time - some times mixing a 9m rope for some ventures. Amazes me that some/so many raise their 9mm lines high above their head and pronounce this is the king/the best. But then when their ropes are wet and someone gets to carry the 'pig' as I call it, the smiles turn to frowns, OR, they always let someone else carry the rope.(this on hour long ventures). On short trips I see little problem or stress in 9m lines. Also interesting - the mind set - there are many viable options in canyon ropes, OR there is only or two ropes/brands I would use. And then the newbies that 'stress' and buy a 9m line and then for the first time pack it uphill for 2-3 hrs and then whine (with rope bag and line) at the 9-10 lbs. Some have no problem with this, I know, some folk are tough and will pack anything. But then there is the factor re enjoying the venture too & silly safety, oh my. Ropes and the personalities that push them - there are some strong opinions out there. The best rope, the best canyon, the best partner, the best president? The debate rolls on.

[ndonaldj]

https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?snapid=S445086Rsk7

Here is a google doc I made out of boredom, I hope the link works. It includes caving rope as well as canyoneering rope. Not all brands/models are included, just my favorites.

[ratagonia]

https://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?snapid=S445086Rsk7

Here is a google doc I made out of boredom, I hope the link works. It includes caving rope as well as canyoneering rope. Not all brands/models are included, just my favorites.

Good effort, though it looks like your taste is on the fat side... :haha:

It would be more useful if your units were consistent... for Canyon Fire, the weight is 3.85; for C'yero 4.2. Elongation on C'yero is same as C Fire 1.2%.

Tom :moses:

[ndonaldj]

Good effort, though it looks like your taste is on the fat side...
This is because it includes ropes I use for caving as well.


It would be more useful if your units were consistent..

I just hadn't taken the time to convert the weight measurements on your ropes yet.. But thank you for doing it for me :mrgreen:

[reflection]

Nice initial efffort. Note that in my earlier post, I listed the reported 100 ft. weight of the two Imlay ropes. I'd add the BW Canyon DS 9mm line to the list. Very popular rope. Weight and measuremuent wise though, it's closer to an 8.5 than a 9. PMI Sport Static lines are actually closer to 8.3-5. Premier line when one sets ropes and ascends. You also don't list the fairly popular and very expensive 8mm BW Canyon Pro and DS lines.

It's your list though; when I saw it my eye wanted to separate, canyon from caving and climbing lines, and to break out the 8, 9, 10 & 11 (or whatever lines). Those learning about ropes - that wish to get into or expand canyoneering for example - may get a blurred view re what lines to follow/buy/use.

For example: Canyon lines; 8-8.5mm A, B, C, D...; 9-9.5mm A, B, C, D..... Caving Ropes..... Climbing Ropes......and then possibly an asteritck on some ropes - can be used in both caving and canyoneering. (or you do your list as you wish, and others can build their own bridge.)

Personally, I think it's worthwhile having an open discussion re ropes. Long ago on the ACA site, the sacred cow of BW lines, disallowed any reasonable discussion of any other ropes. Cancord/Imlay, Sterling, PMI, all off the radar. Yikes, if one was a canyon leader (*most cyn leaders anyway) one couldn't discuss, own or use anything other than a sanctioned BW line; and long ago, one could only use a figure 8. Folk should know that some/many of the marketed 9mm lines are actually weight/measurement/hand wise, closer to 8 or 8.3 or 8.5. They should also know the weight of ropes, AND they should pay careful attention to what happens when these lines get wet. Nylon, Poly, sheaths stability.....and ropes have a personality and nuance. The PMI sport static is nylon, but the sheath is so tight that the water does not quickly permeate. Still the rope in my view is not a general canyon line; But it's a dream when ascending.

Heck, if I were to start all over, I'd go with the canyon fire and probably go not much further. In dry and wet canyons it's A-1. But I know some don't like or favor the line and stay with the BW brand. But then of course I've used Sterling ropes; their new canyon lines are nice in my view. ( many experienced canyoneers that search out and discover new canyons, only carry and use 8mm (8-8.5) lines. They trust the ropes, and the weight and packaging of the rope is important; carrying a lighter rope is more efficient; and in most peoples view, it's plenty safe). But then always, an exception to the rule - sometimes they/we carry 9mm ropes, for this or that venture or drop.

Last week I had a discussion with a neighbor re Stihl and Husky chain saws - we came to little agreement. Minutes later another neighbor came over and shifted the talk to this or that presidential candidate. Quickly we had 3 views. When some, in a martinet manner, try to slam down this or that BW rope on me or others, I often wonder, what happened to the corridor of multiple views? Same with rap devices. The Totem/another sacred cow? (or a lesson in how to twist ropes)

If there are other viable 8- 8.5 canyon ropes out there, I'd enjoy hearing and learning about them. (right now, it's basically Imlay, BW and Sterling poly ropes). The best? A mirage or illusion I think. A better canyon rope though? That's a more reasonable or relevant query. And is it OK to have a diversity of likes; or should we just march to the beat of A, B or C drummer?

[ndonaldj]

I will continue adding ropes to the list as I learn about them I suppose. Speaking of which, does anybody have an opinion on the Bluewater Canyon Pro DS? I had never heard of it but the specs are impressive, a Technora and Polyester sheath over a Dynema core! It sounds like its built like a tank. My only concern would be sheath slippage from the Dynema core.

Thank you for your input, here is an updated table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgQouvNmdn0WdHdOdlFRUHYwZWhLVS1CN3ctQmtEc VE

I didn't add a section for the sport of which each rope is used because that is mostly up to personal preference. And I separated them by diameter, and by units of measurement because I used the manufacturers units. I also didn't include climbing ropes because the world of dynamic is much bigger than static, there would just be way too many to add.

[Vegabond]

I will continue adding ropes to the list as I learn about them I suppose. Speaking of which, does anybody have an opinion on the Bluewater Canyon Pro DS? I had never heard of it but the specs are impressive, a Technora and Polyester sheath over a Dynema core! It sounds like its built like a tank. My only concern would be sheath slippage from the Dynema core.


I have used my 8mm BW Pro DS for about a year now. As a matter of fact, it has been my primary rope. Its been used in the Alps, Death Valley, Sierras and Zion. Still looks great however I would like to comment a bit more on the core slippage. After about a month of use, the sheath became longer then the core by about 9" on a 200' rope. I have not noticed any further slippage, and just recently cut of 9" of loose sheath and tapped it (melting doesn't work).

[ratagonia]

... and tapped it (melting doesn't work).

How do YOU finish the end and does it work well?

Tom

[dougr]

Vag, I'm not entirely happy with my taping of technora ends. I considered trying a torch for kicks, but probably the technora would still just kind of get crusty and not melt, as well as compromise a few feet of core near the end. Therefore, methinks a tough shrink wrap of some kind, like that used at the factory for technora ropes, would be best?

[Brian in SLC]

I've used super glue with some success on Kevlar.

I'd be curious to know what Sterling (or any rope manuf.) would recommend.

Anyone know?

[ndonaldj]

Could something like a sailmaker's whipping work to finish the ends? I know it can be used on kernmantle ropes, but have never tested it. Here is an example:
http://www.animatedknots.com/sailmakers/index.php

Or maybe something like this, if you're feeling ambitious:
http://www.treeworld.info/f15/new-england-fly-kernmantle-splice-10362.html

[tcott]

I've used some of this stuff on technora ropes and it's held up pretty good. I always seem to pop the heat shrink off rapping off the end of the rope in wet canyons.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414kA1FwI7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[oldno7]

Before cutting a technora sheathed rope--install ADHESIVE heat shrink tube to the rope, then cut in the middle of the tube.

I have a long length of BW Canyon Pro DS, very nice rope.(and costly)

[Bootboy]

I coat the last inch with Mcnett seam grip. While it's still wet, I put a piece of heat-shrink tubing on it. Super solid.

The splice on that tree rope would be impossible on a canyon rope. The sheath is woven way too tightly.

Awesome price on an awesome rope. I'd scoop up a few hundred feet. http://www.nwbackpack.com/products/sterling_canyon_c-iv.php

I love my C-IV. After a few uses it is holding up very well. It is smooth and feels great in you hands. It's gotten better with each use. It's not stiff and obnoxious like some of the polyester ropes but not so soft that it's a tangled, mushy mess either. The weight is awesome too. I have a 300' ICG canyon fire and like it ok. Good for long raps. I'd be curious to get a shorter piece of it for shorter raps to compare to my C-IV. So far, my sterling seems to be more durable. They are 6's when it comes to weight, wet or dry. The sterling dries significantly faster as well. It is more supple and goes into a rope bag with much less fuss.

[Bootboy]

Pelican ropeworks makes an 8mm technora cord with a polyester core that has an MBS of 6100lbs. Sheath heavy and very durable. I use it as vt cord for tree work and would be interested to use it as a short back up rope in canyons. It can be had online for about $.90/ft

[reflection]

Re BW Canyon Pro DS (Dual Sheath). Rope lists at Backcontry.com for $362.95 at 200 ft. I know folk that got the line the first year it came out for around $300. Those working in retail shops would do better. The line is stiffer than the Canyon Pro and generally does not scuff up as much as the canyon pro. But the big caveat for this line and the Canyon Pro (aside from the cost) is the sheath slippage, particularly when folk (heavy lads) are rapping single strand. I've seen brand new DS ropes come loose, sheath wise; the slippage was from 4-6 inches, or up to a foot. In Canyon Pro, in wet canyons, the slippage often occured on the ends of the line (sometimes elsewhere); with the DS I saw it in near middle sections of the rope. Generally it's a nice, versatile rope. I know some that say they have never had a problem with the line, and scoff when I suggest otherwise.

By way of comparison, I've never seen sheath slippage on PMI Sport Static, on any of the BW 9mm ropes and not on the Imlay Canyon fire or the Imlay 9mm lines. Ditto re the Sterling 9m ropes. And the cost? The new Sterling 8m line can be found on sale for around $200; and the Canyon Fire for less than that (at 200 ft.). Weight wise the Sterling just about matches the DS with the Canyon Fire a tad heavier. It's just money though and those with BW in their blood, can infuse their quiver with as many BW lines as they wish. (that happened to me a decade ago when BW canyon lines came out; but the luster faded;, Cancord Hercules/Imlay appeared and more recently the Canyon Fire.) Had I the money, would I put it (the DS) in my quiver? Probably not. I still recognize though that opinions vary and exeriences differ. I know some that have used Canyon Pro and Canyon Pro DS and claim they have NEVER had a problem. I salute you, but on my side I no longer pledge allegiance to those pricey/dicey ropes. (even though I still own and sometimes use, some of the canyon pro)

[rrv]

-Lastly, it becomes an unusable cord for lead climbing anymore because of all the sand that works its way into the core. the $$ that you would've spent on a replacement dynamic lead rope could have gotten you outfitted with two new static cords.
.

Really? The ropes these guys are recommending cost as much or more than dynamic ropes. I've seen cheaper 60 meter dynamic ropes for as little as $100

[ratagonia]

Pelican ropeworks makes an 8mm technora cord with a polyester core that has an MBS of 6100lbs. Sheath heavy and very durable. I use it as vt cord for tree work and would be interested to use it as a short back up rope in canyons. It can be had online for about $.90/ft

"Sheath-heavy" has a specific meaning, and I could find no evidence that this is a sheath-heavy rope. Please retract your claim - it is bogus.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Re BW Canyon Pro DS (Dual Sheath). Rope lists at Backcontry.com for $362.95 at 200 ft. I know folk that got the line the first year it came out for around $300. Those working in retail shops would do better. The line is stiffer than the Canyon Pro and generally does not scuff up as much as the canyon pro. But the big caveat for this line and the Canyon Pro (aside from the cost) is the sheath slippage, particularly when folk (heavy lads) are rapping single strand. I've seen brand new DS ropes come loose, sheath wise; the slippage was from 4-6 inches, or up to a foot. In Canyon Pro, in wet canyons, the slippage often occured on the ends of the line (sometimes elsewhere); with the DS I saw it in near middle sections of the rope. Generally it's a nice, versatile rope. I know some that say they have never had a problem with the line, and scoff when I suggest otherwise.

By way of comparison, I've never seen sheath slippage on PMI Sport Static, on any of the BW 9mm ropes and not on the Imlay Canyon fire or the Imlay 9mm lines. Ditto re the Sterling 9m ropes. And the cost? The new Sterling 8mm line can be found on sale for around $200; and the Canyon Fire for less than that (at 200 ft.). Weight wise the Sterling just about matches the DS with the Canyon Fire a tad heavier. It's just money though and those with BW in their blood, can infuse their quiver with as many BW lines as they wish. (that happened to me a decade ago when BW canyon lines came out; but the luster faded;, Cancord Hercules/Imlay appeared and more recently the Canyon Fire.) Had I the money, would I put it (the DS) in my quiver? Probably not. I still recognize though that opinions vary and exeriences differ. I know some that have used Canyon Pro and Canyon Pro DS and claim they have NEVER had a problem. I salute you, but on my side I no longer pledge allegiance to those pricey/dicey ropes. (even though I still own and sometimes use, some of the canyon pro)

Many ropes have sheath slippage problems, including my Canyon Fire and Canyonero, at times. And the Canyon Pro and DS at times.

As delivered all of these ropes are not 100% tight, sheath to core. So if you take em out of the bag and take your Bubba-esque friends out and all slide down the rope in one direction, you are going to induce a lot of sheath slippage. If you are near an end, the slippage will go off one end. If you end near the middle, then you will have a pile of extra sheath just past where everyone stopped rappelling.

The rope being wet seems to make this worse, sometimes MUCH worse. Using an ATC rather than a Pirana tends to make it worse. In odd-numbered months, it tends to be worse. Within a few days of the full moon - much worse! (OK - those last two - :crazy:)

To avoid this, you CAN soak the rope in water and let it dry a couple times before you use it. This will also shrink the length some. I don't do this personally, but I recommend it, especially if you expect to use the rope the first few times in dry canyons, or your canyoneering buddies go by "Bubba".

Canyon Fire x 200 feet => $ 160.00

I have used the BW Canyon Pro about 180 days while guiding in the last 5 years, and it is a nice rope. But when I go out on my own, yes I use my own ropes. Yes, because I like them, and I don't want to give the opportunity for a photo of Tom rapping on BW rope to pop up on the Interwebs! :haha:

Ropes also shrink in length, but it is really hard to put a number to that, as it varies widely with the details of use. We might try to establish a protocol for that and run some tests, this summer.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

.



-Lastly, it becomes an unusable cord for lead climbing anymore because of all the sand that works its way into the core. the $$ that you would've spent on a replacement dynamic lead rope could have gotten you outfitted with two new static cords.

Really? The ropes these guys are recommending cost as much or more than dynamic ropes. I've seen cheaper 60 meter dynamic ropes for as little as $100

Just to be clear, your "Really?" is limited to the discussion of price, correct?

REI.com cheapest New England 10.2 x 60m = $ 144.00
Sierra Trading Post: Tendon 10.4 x 60m = $ 150.00
Summit Hut.com: Mammut Supernova 10mmx60m = $ 160.00

So I will claim equal exaggeration:
A. No, a dynamic 60m climbing rope does not cost twice what canyoneering rope does; and
B. While on-sale dynamic 60m climbing ropes may occasionally be on sale for only a hundred bucks, the normal SALE price would be more like $ 150.00

Let's call it a draw!

Tom

[Bootboy]

"Sheath-heavy" has a specific meaning, and I could find no evidence that this is a sheath-heavy rope. Please retract your claim - it is bogus.

Tom :moses:

No. It's not. I own the evidence.

That's like me interrupting you every three seconds and saying "prove it....show me.... Where does it say that ?" And so on....

Although you may not have found anything that says it is in fact "sheath heavy", doesn't mean it isn't. If by sheath heavy you mean that more than half of the rope's fibers are found in its sheath, this rope fits that definition. I own some of it and if you were to examine a cross section of this rope you'd see what I mean.

[ratagonia]

No. It's not. I own the evidence.

That's like me interrupting you every three seconds and saying "prove it....show me.... Where does it say that ?" And so on....

Although you may not have found anything that says it is in fact "sheath heavy", doesn't mean it isn't. If by sheath heavy you mean that more than half of the rope's fibers are found in its sheath, this rope fits that definition. I own some of it and if you were to examine a cross section of this rope you'd see what I mean.

Hmmm. Interesting.

What's the ratio?

Easiest way to measure is to cut some length, pull the core out of the sheath and weigh the two parts. Gotta have enough material to produce good results on your scale.

I'm still saying "prove it!", in case you haven't figured it out. :crazy:

Tom :naughty:

[rrv]

Just to be clear, your "Really?" is limited to the discussion of price, correct?

REI.com cheapest New England 10.2 x 60m = $ 144.00
Sierra Trading Post: Tendon 10.4 x 60m = $ 150.00
Summit Hut.com: Mammut Supernova 10mmx60m = $ 160.00

So I will claim equal exaggeration:
A. No, a dynamic 60m climbing rope does not cost twice what canyoneering rope does; and
B. While on-sale dynamic 60m climbing ropes may occasionally be on sale for only a hundred bucks, the normal SALE price would be more like $ 150.00

Let's call it a draw!

Tom

Yes, I was referring to price and his statement that you could buy 2 static ropes for the price of one dynamic.

If by a draw, you mean that static and dynamic ropes are basically the same price, then yes, I agree.

[Bootboy]

Hmmm. Interesting.

What's the ratio?

Easiest way to measure is to cut some length, pull the core out of the sheath and weigh the two parts. Gotta have enough material to produce good results on your scale.

I'm still saying "prove it!", in case you haven't figured it out. :crazy:

Tom :naughty:

I separated the sheath and core fibers. More in the sheath than in the core volume wise. I'd call it 55/45. There are obviously different ways to measure, volume, weight, tensile strength, this could vary simply by the materials used in the respective parts of the rope

[ratagonia]

I separated the sheath and core fibers. More in the sheath than in the core volume wise. I'd call it 55/45. There are obviously different ways to measure, volume, weight, tensile strength, this could vary simply by the materials used in the respective parts of the rope

Again, interesting... I cannot find a Technora sheath / Polyester core on their website - can you direct me to the product you are suggesting? I am genuinely interested in this item.

You could weigh it, but as you suggest that is not the most natural way to consider the "amount of material". Weighing it and dividing by density would tell you the volume, if you want to go to that much trouble.

(Technora: 1.39 g/cc - http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet.aspx?matguid=683f3be4a8e140a380b27cf05aa 93229&ckck=1 ;
Polyester: 1.38 g/cc - http://gestis-en.itrust.de/nxt/gateway.dll/gestis_en/530566.xml?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0 )

So Technora and Polyester have the same density, thus a weight comparison also gives a volume comparison.

Tom

[Bootboy]

I'll find it for you. I had trouble finding it on their website too.

I had no idea that technora and polyester were so similar. But you see the point I was trying to make, right?

The only weakness I can find in the rope is that the sheath is not woven as tightly as other canyon specific ropes.

[ratagonia]

I'll find it for you. I had trouble finding it on their website too.

I had no idea that technora and polyester were so similar. But you see the point I was trying to make, right?

The only weakness I can find in the rope is that the sheath is not woven as tightly as other canyon specific ropes.

Found it under new products... http://www.pelicanrope.com/low-angle-canyon-rescue-ropes.html

As Technora Prusik line... A cord for Prusik would be made soft to have more grip, might not be suitable for rappelling. I asked for a quote, might get a sample to look at.

I'm unsure how this makes your point, but I am also not very clear on what point you were trying to provide evidence for.

As far as sheath-heavy - an 8mm rope with a polyester core and a 6000 lb rating would have a core 1/5th larger than my Canyonero... unless the sheath is so amazingly strong that the sheath is way stronger than the core (which very well could be true in this case) so that the rating comes off the sheath (which is counter to the way most static ropes function).

Also, to note, the weight is 40.2 grams per meter, which is considerably less than my 8mm polyester (50 grams per meter) and even less than the Canyon Pro (42 g/m) - so if it is really an 8mm in size, then they are not packing it very tight!

Tom

[Bootboy]

http://img.tapatalk.com/43acf8e6-bffd-263e.jpg

I don't know that I ever really tried to make specific point, I just mentioned this cord as a curiosity. Something to fiddle with. You're the one who has belabored and knit picked it.

P.s. Here is a pick of the sheath and core fibers on a fairly accurate, tunable balance scale. To zero it, you get an average difference of about .3 grams /inch. After re-zeroing the scale and remeasuring several times. The sheath fibers are heavier every time, on both sides of the scale. That's a weight difference of almost 12g/m. 40g/m is what you said right? That's 65% in the sheath if I did my math right. That's pretty "sheath heavy"

[Bootboy]

...

As far as sheath-heavy - an 8mm rope with a polyester core and a 6000 lb rating would have a core 1/5th larger than my Canyonero... unless the sheath is so amazingly strong that the sheath is way stronger than the core (which very well could be true in this case) so that the rating comes off the sheath (which is counter to the way most static ropes function)....


"sheath heavy"

Wouldn't that also be the way your own designs of ropes function?
How does the design of your own ropes explain the paltry 3600lb MBS of your canyon fire rope?

[Bootboy]

Pictures next to my C-IV
http://img.tapatalk.com/43acf8e6-c634-51f9.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/43acf8e6-c666-e60c.jpg

It's on sale from my tree supply folks

http://www.wesspur.com/Prusiks/bulk-prusik-cord.html. It's the technora cord that's $.84/ft

If they'd make it in a 2 end per carrier braid at a higher braiding tension we'd have one heck of a canyon line, especially at that price. That, I think we could agree on.

[ratagonia]

"sheath heavy"

Wouldn't that also be the way your own designs of rope function?

How does the design of your own ropes explain the paltry 3600lb MBS of your canyon fire rope?

Nope. And Nope.

"Wouldn't that also be the way your own designs of ropes function?"

Nope.

When you put a static rope on the testing machine, it loads up and extends, and then the core breaks; and then it loads up again, extends further and the sheath breaks. The core fibers are straight, so those are the ones that take the load first. The sheath fibers are criss-crossed at a 45 degree angle (roughly, at rest) so before they can be really loaded, they have to align straight.

For a standard 50-50 static rope, once you align the sheath fibers by pulling them straight, you find your bundle of fibers is 1.4* longer than it started, and therefore 1/1.4 * (71 %) of the size (diameter) of the core, so it would not be as strong.

Ah, but if the inside was Polyester and the outside was Technora, you change the equation substantially because the Technora, when new, is 3X as strong as the Polyester. However, we also need to be concerned about how the criss crossing interacts, so it is hard to say what the result it, but it is entirely possible for the outside braid to be stronger than the inside core.

My ropes do not work that way - the core carries the strength.

And even if they did, I am not sure I would feel good claiming a strength based on the sheath, because the sheath becomes worn. In a kernmantle rope, there is the assumption that the sheath (mantle) takes the wear while the core (kern) retains its strength. If you are relying on the mantle for strength, then what is the strength after it has been rappelled on? (Answer: uncertain, and unlikely to be the full rated strength).

"How does the design of your own ropes explain the paltry 3600lb MBS of your canyon fire rope?"

You making stuff up?

Not sure where you got the figure you quote, but it is inaccurate.

http://imlaycanyongear.com/ropes2.php

The current rating is 4100 lbs. The rating used to be 3900 lbs (for the 8mm and the Canyon Fire), but after collecting several years of data, it became clear that the data set supported a rating of 4100 lbs. (It is not uncommon for products to come onto the market with one rating and then have the data set support a higher rating down the road. When setting an initial rating, the engineer would want to build in some "just in case" headroom, just in case some variable in manufacture creeps in that causes a loss of strength.)

And it is not MBS or Mean Breaking Strength, it is a 3-sigma rating. MBS is kind of a poor-man's rating; a rating without statistics behind it tells you very little about the actual strength of what you hold in your hand. I want both a respectable Mean breaking strength and a low sigma (variance). A low variance tends to indicate that the manufacturing processes are well-understood and well-controlled. In batch testing, you really want a low sigma, because outliers indicate something is not right.

" ...explain the paltry 3600lb MBS of your... "

You, sir, are a scoundrel. How dare you both lie about my rope, and also insult it by calling it 'paltry'. Defamation! (Mock :angryfire: Outrage)! Pistols at Dawn! :duel: Okay, Sabers at Sunset!

But enough of that.

I re-assert my original contention. You said this stuff is sheath-heavy rope. It is not. I concede that it is sheath-heavy - in fact, it is very, VERY sheath heavy, practically braid. But it is not ROPE. It is purpose-specific Prusik line. That is not rope. Rappelling on this stuff is not what the manufacturer intended, and would have very unpredictable results, and is likely quite dangerous. It is not rope.

Tom :moses:

[Bootboy]

Haha! I love watching the linear thinking engineering types get all up in arms and geek out on this stuff, spitting out terminology and numbers. Its kinda fun to needle you along,Tom.
Pretty sure the card that is packaged with your canyon fire rope said something about a minimum breaking strength of 3600lb. I could be wrong, in which case I would retract my statement.

I'm aware of how different rope designs work. Even in my short years I have an extensive background of rock climbing, high angle rescue with ski patrol and SAR, technical rescue with the fire department, and tree work. I've been dangling from the ends of ropes since I was old enough to walk, have made a living with them, and literally saved lives with them.


Once again I merely mentioned this cord, as it were, as a curiosity. I'm not rappelling on it any time soon. I have several real canyoneering ropes, even one of yours. Which I will continue to use.

Or maybe I'll go to the hardware store to by some polypro diamond braid for all my life safety applications, I heard it floats....

[ratagonia]

Haha! I love watching the linear thinking engineering types get all up in arms and geek out on this stuff, spitting out terminology and numbers. Its kinda fun to needle you along,Tom.

Pretty sure the card that is packaged with your canyon fire rope said something about a minimum breaking strength of 3600lb. I could be wrong, in which case I would retract my statement.

...

Or maybe I'll go to the hardware store to by some polypro diamond braid for all my life safety applications, I heard it floats....

Current hangtag says 3900 lbsF. 3900 is not the same as 3600. That's some linear thinking, right there.

Glad to provide entertainment... :crazy:

Harbor Freight. Best Ropes EVER!

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35864-Bogleyfest-Friday-Englestead-The-Incident

Tom :moses:

[Bootboy]

I'll have to find what rope they were using so I can get one for myself....sounds fast!

What was the point of that post? I use a helmet, I rap on purpose built ropes, I carry a FA kit and warm clothes, I send the most competent rappeller down first with an auto block and use a bottom belay for everyone else. Pleas don't paint me like I don't have a clue. You've had to twist this whole discussion into a scenario in which you can be right about something. I didn't set out to prove anything but you apparently felt threatened by my comment. The self proclaimed guru and overseer of all things canyoneering and lord over all Zion, I am not worthy!

Please don't assume that I would be the type to do something that foolish. You must have missed the part where I told you that I've used ropes professionally for over 6 years in a variety of different applications. Get over yourself.

[ratagonia]

I'll have to find what rope they were using so I can get one for myself....sounds fast!

What was the point of that post? I use a helmet, I rap on purpose built ropes, I carry a FA kit and warm clothes, I send the most competent rappeller down first with an auto block and use a bottom belay for everyone else. Pleas don't paint me like I don't have a clue. You've had to twist this whole discussion into a scenario in which you can be right about something. I didn't set out to prove anything but you apparently felt threatened by my comment. The self proclaimed guru and overseer of all things canyoneering and lord over all Zion, I am not worthy!

Please don't assume that I would be the type to do something that foolish. You must have missed the part where I told you that I've used ropes professionally for over 6 years in a variety of different applications. Get over yourself.

Too serious, oh lad of the sandals... you suggested a rope from a suspect source, I riffed off your suggestion. That's all.

This horse dead yet? :deadhorse:

Tom

[spinesnaper]

http://img.tapatalk.com/43acf8e6-bffd-263e.jpg

I guess I am the idiot. I thought these scales were only useful for measuring weed (for medicinal purposes of course (we have a lot of disabled 24 year olds in California)).

[Bootboy]

You may notice that my scale is dusty, been a while since I used it...

[spinesnaper]

You may notice that my scale is dusty, been a while since I used it...

Sorry bro.

[hank moon]

I coat the last inch with Mcnett seam grip. While it's still wet, I put a piece of heat-shrink tubing on it. Super solid.

Beware of putting tape or heatshrink tubing on rope ends as edges can catch and cause the rope to stick when pulling down. I have had a climbing rope get fully stuck due to the (flimsy) end tape snagging. Smooth, catch-free ends are ideal.

Fully meltable ends (e.g. nylon, polyester, etc) can be tapered nicely over a gas stove.

Non-meltable ends (e.g. aramid sheath): seal an inch or so of sheath in the area to be cut with seam grip, whip-end dip, or similar. When dry, cut rope cleanly with a razor blade at midpoint of sealed area. Pull about 1.5" of core material out of the sheath and cut it off. Use additional seam grip to glue and taper the hollow sheath ends.

Semi-meltable ends (e.g. BW Canyon Pro): same as for non-meltable, except tape can be used instead of seam grip, and the ends melted and tapered.

Note on melting/tapering: Leather gloves work well to shape heat-softened material.

Shown: tapered end of Imlay 8mm Canyon rope (teatering on the edge of postability) :naughty:

55037

[Bootboy]

I like the tapering idea. Thanks