Pot Shot & Sand Trap Techniques

[penmartens]

Thanks for bringing up this subject. Potshots/traps seem to not be talked about much, and could to be the most 'mysterious' of anchor types. When should we use them and why? Why this type and not another?
Perhaps we can get some light shed on dynamic anchors.

The four considerations for any anchor are:
1. safety- obvious
2. pull-can we get our rope back? will we leave rope grooves?
3. convenience- how easily can we get on rap?
4.trash- How much and what are we leaving behind? webbing, rapides, rope grooves?

When planning to use dynamic anchors, should both shots and traps be carried?
What are the differences/ versatility of each type?
When is a trap preferred over a shot?

What can we fill these things with?

Lets start with this much. Anyone?

[oldno7]

Great conversation Penny, hopefully this can be split off into it's own thread.
I have some ideas for the sandtrap I was hoping to test this week, I'll post up my ideas and findings when I get back next week.

[Iceaxe]

hopefully this can be split off into it's own thread.

Done :2thumbs:

Looking forward to seeing what materializes from this thread. :cool2:

[xxnitsuaxx]

I use my potshots to carry my bolting kit and G-pick. They're the perfect size!!

[ilipichicuma]

I'm actually really interested in this thread. My friend just bought a SandTrap and we're planning on going to test it out this weekend. Any tips?

[moab mark]

Here are a few tips from my limited experience with the trap. The larger the group the better. Would recommend at least 4 or 5 guys. The smaller the group the greater the risk for the last guy. Always have the lightest go last if they are a competent rappeler. Always back it up till the last guys goes. If it moves add more sand or readjust where the trap is laying. Rappel smoothly and slide over the lip on your hip. Bring several pot shots to shuttle sand to the trap if necessary. Pulling the trap is pretty easy. Just make sure there is no pinch spot to catch the trap as it goes over the edge. When you use one the first time you think someone has lost their mind. But after several rappels you become a believer. I also attached a picture of a potshot which had been tossed by me to climb out of a pot hole. I had tossed it from where the guy is upstream. The potshot wedged itself in the crack and I was able to climb out. You could also rappel on this concept. To retrieve tie a rope on the bottom of the bag and flip it over to pull it. Could be difficult to pull so may want to double rope so you could at least get your rope back. Recommend also backing up this concept if possible. If the drop is big the bag may explode when it hits the ground.

[penmartens]

Here are a few tips from my limited experience with the trap. The larger the group the better. Would recommend at least 4 or 5 guys. The smaller the group the greater the risk for the last guy. Always have the lightest go last if they are a competent rappeler. Always back it up till the last guys goes. If it moves add more sand or readjust where the trap is laying. Rappel smoothly and slide over the lip on your hip. Bring several pot shots to shuttle sand to the trap if necessary. Pulling the trap is pretty easy. Just make sure there is no pinch spot to catch the trap as it goes over the edge. When you use one the first time you think someone has lost their mind. But after several rappels you become a believer. I also attached a picture of a potshot which had been tossed by me to climb out of a pot hole. I had tossed it from where the guy is upstream. The potshot wedged itself in the crack and I was able to climb out. You could also rappel on this concept. To retrieve tie a rope on the bottom of the bag and flip it over to pull it. Could be difficult to pull so may want to double rope so you could at least get your rope back. Recommend also backing up this concept if possible. If the drop is big the bag may explode when it hits the ground.

Thanks for getting us started and for including clear pics.
I have rapped off of potshots. I have filled them with sand, rocks, and mud depending on what was available.
I have used either a pull rope or a rap rope as the pull. Both have been successful. Pots don't always empty when flipped which makes them difficult to retrieve and increases the chances of grooving.
I have used them in the chock mode, on a flat surface set far back from the edge, and behind a ledge such as a lip of a pothole or a sand dam.

I have tossed potshots and used them to exit potholes either as a chock, on a flat surface far from the edge, or as a counter balance hanging in the next pot.

Referencing the red words in the quote above, it sounds like Russian Roulette for the last person, i.e. lightest person, i.e. me. This sounds marginal and yet it is what I hear every time in connection with traps.

Another question would be, aren't traps gear intensive? More rope, more biners (to connect the four corners), and shots to shuttle sand.

[moab mark]

For most situations 2 ropes are needed when using a trap. One to rappel and one to pull. The trap has a piece of webbing that runs through the center, when you pull this webbing it squeezes the center of the trap and the sand falls out of the ends of the taco shell. Hope that made sense. As far as Russian Roulette it isn't much difference then rappeling off of a pot shot or any other retrievable anchor. If it is retrievable it has a higher chance of failure. That is why you want several heavier guys to go prior to the last guy. From my experience it is surprising solid. If you look at the picture I posted with the group of guys. I am the one in the T shirt and the guy behind me is pushing 240 lbs. I come in around 190 lbs. He went first and stood up going over the edge and the trap didn't even budge. The rest went on their hip and I went last. After 4 had gone I felt pretty comfortable but yes it gets your blood pressure up a bit.
Edit if you look at the third picture you can see the webbing going off to the side with the pull cord tied to it. The last guy tosses that down.

[ratagonia]

For most situations 2 ropes are needed when using a trap. One to rappel and one to pull. The trap has a piece of webbing that runs through the center, when you pull this webbing it squeezes the center of the trap and the sand falls out of the ends of the taco shell. Hope that made sense. As far as Russian Roulette it isn't much difference then rappeling off of a pot shot or any other retrievable anchor. If it is retrievable it has a higher chance of failure. That is why you want several heavier guys to go prior to the last guy. From my experience it is surprising solid. If you look at the picture I posted with the group of guys. I am the one in the T shirt and the guy behind me is pushing 240 lbs. I come in around 190 lbs. He went first and stood up going over the edge and the trap didn't even budge. The rest went on their hip and I went last. After 4 had gone I felt pretty comfortable but yes it gets your blood pressure up a bit.
Edit if you look at the third picture you can see the webbing going off to the side with the pull cord tied to it. The last guy tosses that down.

Mark -

In one of those pics, the rope is set up not tied from the end, but somewhere in the middle. Not like it was a problem in that particular situation, but...

It seems better to always (ie, usually) tie in with the end of the rope. I say this as the 10 feet of rope closest to the SandTrap gets dirty, then chewed up. Better to lose 10 feet off one end, rather than 10 feet in the middle of a rope.

(Nice lookin' rope, that...) :naughty:

Tom :moses:

[moab mark]

If you look closely I have about a 15 ft tail to use as the back up. Wanted to sit farther back from the end then my leash would allow.

[ratagonia]

If you look closely I have about a 15 ft tail to use as the back up. Wanted to sit farther back from the end then my leash would allow.

That's a good reason.

I am a bit uncomfortable calling these "dynamic" anchors. I know what a dynamic anchor is, I did one last November... :cry1:

"Ghosting" anchors, perhaps. "Retrievable". "Sand-based"?:ne_nau:

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Manufacturer's official statement:



SandTrap - Advanced Anchor

The SandTrap is a new, advanced anchoring system thought up by Springdale’s Steve Woodford; that allows for a solid, reliable and retrievable anchor in many sandstone-canyon environments. Essentially, if you have sand, and a little bit of favorable geometry to work with, you can get an anchor.

As an ADVANCED anchor system, the SandTrap requires careful judgment and execution to use safely. PRACTICE will be required to get a feel for how much sand is required, and how much favorable geometry is required to produce a safe anchor. Please, BACKUP the SandTrap EVERY TIME until it has proven itself secure in the given circumstance. For this reason, it is suggested that the SandTrap will work better with sufficient people available to allow thorough testing of the Trap’s security before the final, ‘last man’ rappels from it without backup.

USING THE SANDTRAP
1. USE A CARABINER OR RAPID LINK to connect the rope to the SandTrap – both for the rappel rope and for the retrieval rope. Rope-on-webbing action will quickly wear out the tie-in points, so use metal for this vital link.
2. INSPECT the tie-in points and the retrieval strap on a regular basis, perhaps after every rappel. If either of these critical components are damaged, carefully evaluate the severity of the damage and whether continued use is safe.

SANDTRAP PARTS

The INSIDE of the SandTrap is smooth – this is where the sand goes.
The OUTSIDE of the SandTrap has several straps and belt loops on it – where all the action takes place.

The TOP EDGE of the SandTrap has the “Imlay Canyon Gear” label, and the retrieval strap sliding through a belt loop; the BOTTOM EDGE of the SandTrap has the retrieval strap sewn to the tarp near its center.

FOUR TIE IN POINTS are found at the corners of the tarp. Use a locking carabiner to clip all four of these to the Rappel Rope.

ONE RETRIEVAL STRAP runs up the center of the SandTrap through 4 belt loops and out the top. Use a locking carabiner to attach this to a retrieval rope.

A BACKUP RETRIEVAL TIE-IN POINT is sewn at the center of the bottom edge, allowing attachment of a retrieval strap should the primary retrieval strap fail.

PREPARING THE SANDTRAP

Place the SandTrap on the ground, with the OUTSIDE of SandTrap facing down, the smooth INSIDE facing up. Orient the SandTrap with the BOTTOM EDGE facing TOWARD the drop. Pile sand on the center of the SandTrap. Pull the TOP EDGE over the sand and toward the drop to roughly line up with the BOTTOM EDGE.

Clip the FOUR (4) TIE IN POINTS to the rappel rope using a locking carabiner.

Place the SandTrap into a pothole, depression or dug pit close to the edge of the drop. Make sure that the “runout” is clear of objects and constrictions that could snag the SandTrap, or behind which the SandTrap could become jammed.

Clip the RETRIEVAL STRAP to the retrieval rope using a locking carabiner.

Set up a BACKUP SYSTEM to allow safe testing of the SandTrap as rigged without risk to the rappellers.

RAPPELLING FROM THE SANDTRAP AND RETRIEVAL

Rappel using minimum-force rappelling techniques. Observe the SandTrap as canyoneers rappel and add more sand or reposition the SandTrap if it appears sketchy. If concerned about retrieval, do a test pull to make sure the people below can successfully retrieve the SandTrap.

After everyone has rappelled, retrieve the SandTrap by pulling hard on the RETRIEVAL CORD. The cord bunches the center of the SandTrap and pushes the sand out the sides, at which point the empty SandTrap is pulled down to the waiting canyoneers. It may require a lot of pulling from below to get the retrieval process started, but generally once it starts, the retrieval proceeds with less force.

NOTES

Both the rappelling rope and the retrieval rope get very beat up in this process, especially the part near the SandTrap. Inspect these ropes often and change them out to spread the wear and tear around.

EVEN WHEN USED CAREFULLY, USE OF THIS ANCHOR SYSTEM CAN RESULT IN DEATH OR SERIOUS INJURY. STUDY EACH SITUATION CAREFULLY, MAKE SMART DECISIONS, LIVE TO CANYONEER ANOTHER DAY.


To which I might add:

1. Testing and backing up is REAL important. A good reason to treat this as a TEAM event. Even once you have used it for awhile, it can surprise you, so it is essential to always always always carefully back up and test.

2. Good first SandTrap Canyon: No Kidding. Lots of placements, not too long or strenny, not pressed for time. Last time I went in to do it, it was really muddy, and we exited after the first rappel and taking an hour to get past 2 little potholes. Glad it had the exit available... :facepalm1:

Tom

[ratagonia]

Setting up your SandTrap for most efficient use and least rope grooves

I "set up" my SandTrap with 3 x 7mm Aluminum Rapides. One on each pair of anchor points, and one on the retrieval point. Then I clip the rope to these with a small locking carabiner. This seems faster than clipping the webbing each time with the carabiner.

On the retrieval side, I tie on a 10' length of 8mm rope, with a 3' piece of hose on it. When using, I tie the retrieval cord to the end of this. The hose decreases the force required to retrieve the SandTrap rather significantly, and helps considerably in avoiding making rope grooves. Using a piece of hose on the rappel side can help with the grooving, but with the loss of friction the forces on the trap are higher, so care must be taken to compensate for this and make sure the trap has more sand than without the hose.

I've gotten the trap stuck once, and Dan has gotten it stuck once. In the picture below, the trap got stuck on the chockstone, and Dan had to go back up and get it. The one I got stuck was on the last little drop in No Kidding, where the trap clenched around a little pinnacle. had to jug back up, refill and reposition the SandTrap, then had my partner test it from below, before carefully using it.

Tom

[penmartens]

Tom,
Thanks for your input. It is invaluable. Again, thanks on the pics.This one shows how little an obstacle with which a trap can get caught.
Thanks also for posting the manufacturer's statement. It will serve as good background.
I can agree to call potshot/trap anchors 'retrievable', although not all retrievables are created equal. It is probably a different topic.

Mark,
Thanks for clarifying why the long tail. That is a very good way to back up any anchor without using extra equipment.
I feel comfortable with other 'retrievable' anchors once they have been adequately tested with backup, so traps shouldn't be any different.

[PG Rob]

2. Good first SandTrap Canyon: No Kidding. Lots of placements, not too long or strenny, not pressed for time. Last time I went in to do it, it was really muddy, and we exited after the first rappel and taking an hour to get past 2 little potholes. Glad it had the exit available...

Tom - Funny you mention mud in No Kidding. I am going there on Friday, and that is why I originally posed the question about mud in the shots and trap.

Rob

[peakbaggers]

Great discussion - especially for us since we just bought a couple of potshots and want to start learning to use them. The photos are great - "a picture is worth a thousand words." Thanks for starting this, Penny. Looking forward to getting the potshots, Tom. The sandtrap will be next on our purchase list.

[canyondevil]

Referencing the red words in the quote above, it sounds like Russian Roulette for the last person, i.e. lightest person, i.e. me. This sounds marginal and yet it is what I hear every time in connection with traps.

On that note, I think I will have another donut!

Instead of connecting the pull rope directly to the Trap, has anyone tried tying a section of webbing between the Trap and the pull rope so that the webbing extends past the lip to avoid grooving? This will no doubt make the pull more difficult with the extra surface area on the rock, but the webbing should not groove near as much as a rope.

[penmartens]

Goofball and No Kidding is one of the great mud stories around--a classic.
North Wash has had a very dry winter this year. Canyons are pretty dry. There was a wet snow storm a couple weeks ago, but I think its effects are gone.
I would expect No Kidding to be dry, but remembering Jason's descent I think I would take some potshots, also. They are more forgiving in mud. I believe there is a thread here about using potshots in a series. Forum Fox posted it, I think.
Good luck. Have fun.

[PG Rob]

Thanks Penny ... I am planning on taking both a sandtrap and potshots. I regularly use both. It was partly because of that story (Goofball) that I originally started the thread: [Help] (http://www.bogley.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?15-Canyoneering&prefixid=Help) Potshots/Sandtrap with mud??? (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62457-Potshots-Sandtrap-with-mud)

[canyondevil]

Here is some great info with pictures on using Potshots in No Kidding... How many people use a board to stack them on?

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?37262-TR-No-Kidding

[PG Rob]

They work best in a certain geometry (If ground is level... between 100 and 170 degrees), so in some cases it could take a board to facilitate it.
52155

[ratagonia]

Hmmmmm.

At that first big drop, where they talk about using a board, we usually bring a 200' rope to tie off and leave there, picking it up on the way back through. I was a little surprised to see them trying to stack potshots there. (The bad lip is on a pothole further down.)

I would say that stacking potshots for anchors is pretty tricky, and has a narrow "sweet spot". That is a big reason Steve W. came up with the SandTrap, because the stacked potshots was a very marginal technique.

That TR shows the technique pretty well. Stack up pot shots. Rappel off the bottom one. Retrieve by pulling them off the top one at a time. Sounds simple, but in practice, can be difficult to execute.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Seeing the stacking (which are great) makes me appreciate the sand trap all the more. I finally got to see the sand trap in action at Freezefest and it is so much easier, it appears, than stacking potshots. I would however take both the potshots and sandtrap in a canyon of unknown conditions, ie. mud.

[sasteve49]

Thanks Penny ... I am planning on taking both a sandtrap and potshots. I regularly use both. It was partly because of that story (Goofball) that I originally started the thread: [Help] (http://www.bogley.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?15-Canyoneering&prefixid=Help) Potshots/Sandtrap with mud??? (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62457-Potshots-Sandtrap-with-mud)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU32NUZRfRE

This is an idea I have been playing with since last year. The concept works, but the drybag needs to be larger. Also I have an idea to close the drybag but so that it opens easily on the retieval. Fill with water, roll the top closed, insert two tongues through loops(these are sewn on the drybag.) The retrieval rope is attached to these tongues, then continues around the Sandtrap in the normal manner. We used the drybag idea once in Colt 45, but the slope was too shallow....almost held when I went over the big drop. It does obviuosly work better on a vertical lip with lots of friction. I believe Tom and Jenny have been developing this "wanchor" concept as well, but I have been out of the loop in South America for the winter.

[penmartens]

Thanks for the input so far. It is indeed enlightening.

Potshots:
-More versatile, can be tossed or used as anchor on up canyon side
-Can be filled with a variety of materials, i.e rocks, sand, mud, water
-Can be stacked although intensive with greater margin of error
-Simple setup for short drops
-Inexpensive to purchase

Cons:
Can be hard to empty
Can split on impact

Traps:
-Easy to dump
-1 trap= 1-6 potshots
-Setup is more straight-forward
-Easy to inspect, evaluate

Cons:
-More expensive initially plus requires accessories, i.e. hose, links or biners
-Geometrically sensitive placement


Both:
-Can fail without warning
-Need larger group to test
-May fail to empty completely causing harder pull or getting stuck
-May stick at obstacle or constriction

Can tarps be stacked?

Would anyone like to expound on jugging on shots/traps?

What are people using to prevent rope grooves? Is the hose being used universally? Are some using nothing? Something else?

[ratagonia]

Thanks for the input so far. It is indeed enlightening.

...

Can tarps be stacked?

Would anyone like to expound on jugging on shots/traps?

What are people using to prevent rope grooves? Is the hose being used universally? Are some using nothing? Something else?

Tarps stacked? Hmmmm. Certainly possible to stack potshots on top of a SandTrap for greater weight. Pot Shots also useful when sand needs to be moved TO the SandTrap. They both have their uses, SYNERGY!

I think the stacked Pot Shots are kinda obscure. Only the real tech-weenies will want to explore that avenue. The sweet spot on stacked Pot Shots is pretty small, and you really otta bring along a board in case the lip is obnoxious (but it can be filled with sand, if needed). The SandTrap has a much bigger sweet spot, and people grasp the parameters for safe usage much more easily.

Tom :moses:

[canyondevil]

They work best in a certain geometry (If ground is level... between 100 and 170 degrees), so in some cases it could take a board to facilitate it.
52155

What are geometry limitations of the Sandtrap?

[ratagonia]

What are geometry limitations of the SandTrap?

The SandTrap works best if it is set into a depression, perhaps a shallow pothole, so that when you pull on the rappel rope, the Trap and its Sand has to move upward. Also, friction of the rope against the rock as it goes up and over a round edge decreases the force on the Trap.

If the pothole is too steep and deep, it can be hard to retrieve the SandTrap. Using the hose on the retrieval side can make the pull a lot easier, especially in a steep/deep pothole.

As the pothole gets flatter, the trap needs more sand. It can be used on a flat surface, but it takes quite a large pile of sand to get that to be strong. The normal form of the SandTrap is as a Taco; on a flat surface it is used more like a Tostada. Unfortunately, grains of sand act as a lubricant so the coefficient of friction is lower than it might be if the environment was clean.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

What are geometry limitations of the Sandtrap?

On the other hand...

There are some geometric problems to avoid.

1. Tight narrows: if the SandTrap is bounded on both sides by canyon walls, then sometimes the sand does not spill out the sides, and the Trap cannot be retrieved. If this is the geometry available, usually the Trap can be moved further back, where the Trap can have 5-10 feet to dump out the sand before it gets into the narrows.

2. Stuff in the way: when cleaned, there is a lot of crap sliding down the drop. Ropes, fabric, straps and some sand. If there are places for the Trap to get stuck, it will. That picture of Anna rapping shows a chockstone in the way, that the Trap got stuck on. So it mainly is used in CLEAN sandstone canyons where there is plenty of sand and not many obstacles.

Tom :moses:

[ghawk]

I think the last two posts were quite useful. thanks Tom :2thumbs:

[canyondevil]

I think the last two posts were quite useful. thanks Tom :2thumbs:

Agreed. Thanks Tom.

[PG Rob]

I just posted a Trip Report with how we used them today.

No Kidding w/Sandtrap and Potshots (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62510-No-Kidding-w-Sandtrap-and-Potshots)

[penmartens]

Thanks for sharing your reasons for why shots and not traps. I have a few questions.
Would you give some details about stacking the shots? Why 6? Is that a magic number in some way? Do you have any tips on their usage? I see you didn't use a board.

Then, for comparison sake, has someone used a trap on the drops that PG Rob used the shots? With what results?

[PG Rob]

In general, it is best to set up as close to the drop as possible to ensure a clean pull and minimal to no rope grooves. A sandtrap has been used at every drop in the canyon. There are places where it works best, and places where I think potshots work best. You will notice earlier in the thread that the sandtrap was stuck on 2 of the drops. This was because it was set up in a compromised position (my belief).

I use 6 potshots for flexibility... You can load them up, or only fill them a little. With more, you are more versatile. If you only had a couple, you would regularly have to fill them to the brim, you likely would not be able to set up in the prime location, you are risking a clean pull and may cause rope grooving.

When stacking them, only the bottom potshot is connected to the rappel rope. It is important to remember the forces that are in play on the bottom potshot when weighted. It essentially is a wedge behind the other 5 which are for weight and friction. The bottom shot wants to pull in the direction of the rappel. The tools that are available to you are angle, friction and weight. It is essentially a multiplication formula. The greater the one, the lesser the others can be. When there is a low angle, try to maximize friction with the other shots and the rope, and fill the potshots more. When you have a better (more inclined) angle, you do not need as much sand in the potshots. You need to ensure that the friction and weight are in line (same direction) with the force that is on the bottom shot.

Since we took both a sandtrap and potshots, I thought it was not necessary to have a board.

[Scott Card]

.

Then, for comparison sake, has someone used a trap on the drops that PG Rob used the shots? With what results? Are we talking No Kidding? If so, we did the entire canyon during FreezeFest with a Sand Trap. Worked like a charm at every drop. No pot shots used.

[penmartens]

Scott,
What did your group do, if anything, to avoid the problems that have been cited for No Kidding?
I am assuming that Spidey did the little down climb that PG Rob talked about. Anything else?

[PG Rob]

Penny,

You definitely can use a sandtrap at every drop. It is an amazing tool. It has it's place, along with all other tools. There are spots where it is the best tool and spots where it is better to use potshots.

Following is an example of a drop where it is better to use potshots. We already talked about how it is ideal to get as close to the drop as possible to have an easier pull and avoid rope grooves. You can see that the potshots can be set up almost right on top of the ridge. Notice the rope grooves next to the potshots. It is not practical to set up a sandtrap on the ridge. You would typically set up a sandtrap lower in the pothole and have to pull it up and over, which is likely what caused the rope grooves. Now, Tom's idea of using the garden hose can decrease the rope grooves and make for an easier pull of the sandtrap, but you still have an easier pull and no rope grooves with the potshots on the ridge.
52241
52240

[penmartens]

It looks like we have pretty well covered this subject.
I am still wondering how often protection on the pull is being used for the trap. Are people using the hose? Are they using something else? Some have suggested using 1 inch webbing as a sleeve for the pull. I am wondering about a kevlar sleeve.
I see that Oldno is back. Do you have anything to add since your trip last week?

[ratagonia]

It looks like we have pretty well covered this subject.
I am still wondering how often protection on the pull is being used for the trap. Are people using the hose? Are they using something else? Some have suggested using 1 inch webbing as a sleeve for the pull. I am wondering about a kevlar sleeve.
I see that Oldno is back. Do you have anything to add since your trip last week?

Most of the canyons where SandTraps are used are in very soft rock - therefore, using groove prevention devices should be part of the process.

We have tried using hoses, and it works part of the time, but is a pain. 3' of hose seems a good length. Splitting the hose so it could be put on the rope (rather than the rope passed through it) proved ineffective. I'll be working on a new solution to this, for release soon, I hope.

Tom

[canyondevil]

I see that PG only connected the rappel line to the bottom potshot and just piled the others on top. Wouldnt it be better to run the rap line through a rapide on each of the potshots (blocked on the bottom potshot) and pull the blocked side of the rap line through all rapides before pulling the potshots?

[Scott Card]

Scott,
What did your group do, if anything, to avoid the problems that have been cited for No Kidding?
I am assuming that Spidey did the little down climb that PG Rob talked about. Anything else?

Here is the short answer. I don't recall any problems. We had Spidey. :haha: Honestly, we used the sand trap at every rappel. I can't remember if Spidey downclimbed or not. In canyons there is Ram who remembers everything and there is me who remembers what a fun day I had. In other words, I have to see a canyon at least twice to start remembering details of each drop. I am terrible at the little details of the canyons on my first descent. Sorry about that. Maybe Dan remembers.

[ratagonia]

I see that PG only connected the rappel line to the bottom potshot and just piled the others on top. Wouldnt it be better to run the rap line through a rapide on each of the potshots (blocked on the bottom potshot) and pull the blocked side of the rap line through all rapides before pulling the potshots?

We tried that. They become hopelessly tangled. It would be more secure, but less cleanable.

T

[oldno7]

It looks like we have pretty well covered this subject.
I am still wondering how often protection on the pull is being used for the trap. Are people using the hose? Are they using something else? Some have suggested using 1 inch webbing as a sleeve for the pull. I am wondering about a kevlar sleeve.
I see that Oldno is back. Do you have anything to add since your trip last week?

Hi Penny

Heres what I have and don't have.

I have a technora sheath with velcro to protect on pulls

I would think Tom could replicate something similar.

Weight and bulk is virtually non-existant.

[ratagonia]

Hi Penny

Heres what I have and don't have.

I have a technora sheath with velcro to protect on pulls

I would think Tom could replicate something similar.

Weight and bulk is virtually non-existant.

BlueWater? or homemade? I would make it a lot wider, so the rope would be looser in it, so it can be tied to the retrieval strand top and bottom, and when pulled the rap strand would easily slide through it. Of course, it does not protect the rock during the pulling phase, in a normal "pull-through" situation.

Tom

[PG Rob]

Devil,

When stacking potshots, you have 2 components. The first being the bottom potshot, which is the anchor, like the bottom rock in a deadman. The 2nd part being all other potshots, which are there to add friction and weight. The placement of part 1 and part 2 need to be well thought out. There is a lot more that goes into placement than piling potshots on top.

Rob

[canyondevil]

Devil,

When stacking potshots, you have 2 components. The first being the bottom potshot, which is the anchor, like the bottom rock in a deadman. The 2nd part being all other potshots, which are there to add friction and weight. The placement of part 1 and part 2 need to be well thought out. There is a lot more that goes into placement than piling potshots on top.

Rob

My bad, I should have said "stack" instead of pile. Didnt mean to strike a nerve. I was merely brainstorming ideas to improve an imperfect system.

[oldno7]

My ideas on the sandtrap involved attaching BD talons to the pull line via a prussic cord or better yet--to adapt to length, a purcell prussic.

In tostado mode--fold sandtrap length wise, fasten talon in weakness/crach/whatever.

Fold sandtrap over talon and add sand to solidify and hold talon in place.

repeat on other side.

Would only be good on slickrock with a crack or some feature to attach talon to.

pulling on pull cord dumps sand--as usual and disrupts talons from there holding spot.

Could also be used in taco mode in the right spot.

I showed this to Ram and we didn't have a place to try the "idea"(which is all it is at this point)

Thoughts?

[oldno7]

BlueWater? or homemade? I would make it a lot wider, so the rope would be looser in it, so it can be tied to the retrieval strand top and bottom, and when pulled the rap strand would easily slide through it. Of course, it does not protect the rock during the pulling phase, in a normal "pull-through" situation.

Tom

Stamped on a tag is JHRG LLC
So I don't think Bluewater, unless that is just who they purchased the material from.

[oldno7]

Stamped on a tag is JHRG LLC
So I don't think Bluewater, unless that is just who they purchased the material from.

They show the product on their site

http://www.jhrgllc.com/fabricthread/coverschafegear.html

[ratagonia]

My ideas on the sandtrap involved attaching BD talons to the pull line via a prussic cord or better yet--to adapt to length, a purcell prussic.

In tostado mode--fold sandtrap length wise, fasten talon in weakness/crach/whatever.

Fold sandtrap over talon and add sand to solidify and hold talon in place.

repeat on other side.

Would only be good on slickrock with a crack or some feature to attach talon to.

pulling on pull cord dumps sand--as usual and disrupts talons from there holding spot.

Could also be used in taco mode in the right spot.

I showed this to Ram and we didn't have a place to try the "idea"(which is all it is at this point)

Thoughts?

What problem are you trying to solve?

T

[PG Rob]

Sorry Devil! I didn't mean to offend.

[oldno7]

What problem are you trying to solve?

T

A smooth semi-featureless, maybe slightly downsloping,thin layer of sand or wherever additional friction and bite might be prudent.

Mostly just trying to add a simple feature that would work somewhere, when nothing else would. An additional tool/idea for the open minded.

Definitely not intended as an "only way to do it" method.

Maybe a spot like---where you fell?:ne_nau:

[ratagonia]

A smooth semi-featureless, maybe slightly downsloping,thin layer of sand or wherever additional friction and bite might be prudent.

Mostly just trying to add a simple feature that would work somewhere, when nothing else would. An additional tool/idea for the open minded.

Definitely not intended as an "only way to do it" method.

Maybe a spot like---where you fell?:ne_nau:

Where I tumbled had plenty of opportunity to make a solid anchor, with the tools at hand. It was the squishy grey tool that was not working well.

In that case, why not just use a hook? Or, if the Sandtrap does something, a Sandtrap equalized with a hook?

T

[penmartens]

Any and all ideas are welcome.
There are canyoneers of different experience levels participating. Some will be more comfortable with certain ideas while others embrace truly on the edge stuff. Let's keep communication simple and straightforward so that people can tell what is 'tried and true' and what is an 'idea'. Remember cyber language is easily misinterpreted.
Keep it coming. I've been trying to set a foundation for this conversation all week. We've covered potshots pretty well except for some fine points such as the one that Devil and PG have clarified.
We have only started on the trap, I hope.

[oldno7]

Where I tumbled had plenty of opportunity to make a solid anchor, with the tools at hand. It was the squishy grey tool that was not working well.

In that case, why not just use a hook? Or, if the Sandtrap does something, a Sandtrap equalized with a hook?

T

All tools and options I agree.......

So are you suggesting to only use a sandtrap according to manufactures recommendations and where it won't work just bolt?

Is your "grey" tool capable of accepting potentially viable input from other sources or is it destined to repeated failure?:haha:

[oldno7]

Any and all ideas are welcome.
There are canyoneers of different experience levels participating. Some will be more comfortable with certain ideas while others embrace truly on the edge stuff. Let's keep communication simple and straightforward so that people can tell what is 'tried and true' and what is an 'idea'. Remember cyber language is easily misinterpreted.
Keep it coming. I've been trying to set a foundation for this conversation all week. We've covered potshots pretty well except for some fine points such as the one that Devil and PG have clarified.
We have only started on the trap, I hope.

Agreed, and I clearly labeled my sandtrap "idea" as such.

I think there is a lot of room for expansion on a great idea(sandtrap)

[ratagonia]

All tools and options I agree.......

So are you suggesting to only use a sandtrap according to manufactures recommendations and where it won't work just bolt?

Is your "grey" tool capable of accepting potentially viable input from other sources or is it destined to repeated failure?:haha:

You threw out an idea, looking for response. Now you object to my response, on the basis that it is negative and questioning? I believe we are both accusing the other of having a closed mind. :boxing: C'mon Kurt. YOU just got some canyon time in, so I was hoping to see a less bristley No. 7 for at least another couple days... :haha:

There are many more tools than SandTraps and Bolts, as you imply is the limit of one's toolbox. Some people find hooks useful. I have not, though I have not tried them much. (Saved us from a cold bivy once, though!)

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

I would never object to questioning---negative on the other hand seems counter productive to the exchange of ideas in the interest of improving a mousetrap.


I had a similar conversation a few years ago with a guy looking to make a new rappel device. I have a friend with a plazma cutter so this guy sends me his dimension for his rappel device. Upon looking at said layout I drew up a variant and sent it in along with this guys version to the plazma cutter.

His variation is picture #1, my variation is picture #2.
He said my idea was to big and bulky and would never work, so he sent his design in to the machining company and they came back with picture #3. After repeated testing by that guy, my former partner and myself, we decided the device was o.k. but very limited.
A new version came out, it is in picture #4, I guess he's doing o.k. with it but I wouldn't know, we don't talk much anymore.

[PG Rob]

What are people using to prevent rope grooves? Is the hose being used universally? Are some using nothing? Something else?


We have only started on the trap, I hope.

I used the hose for the first time after reading this thread before No Kidding on Friday. It worked well on 1 pull and not much on the other. It didn't seem like a problem at all to carry the extra 3 feet of hose. Prior to that, I would look at each rappel with grooves as a factor in which tool to choose. I may be behind the learning curve for not being aware of the option prior.



A smooth semi-featureless, maybe slightly downsloping,thin layer of sand or wherever additional friction and bite might be prudent.

Mostly just trying to add a simple feature that would work somewhere, when nothing else would. An additional tool/idea for the open minded.

I am buying what you are selling. I can see how this could be useful. It would be a rare occasion to use it, but good to have as a tool when other options are ineffective.

[sasteve49]

I am gonna jump in here! Look y'all, I invented the Sandtrap( MaxxiPad) as we first called it (but Tom correctly suggested that there are some very politically correct and delicate souls out there....). Because of the difficulty and time constraints in setting up the stacked, piled or whatever you want to call it pot-shot configuration and the split bag results of some pulls, I came up with the MaxxiPad(don'tya love it!) design. Me and my wife Maria, who sewed the original one, tested it on over 200 raps personally before intro'ing to the general canyoneering crowd, and it works, as a lot of you ACTIVE canyoneers are finding out. It works well in the "flat" or "tostada" mode, and in the "taco" mode hanging behind a pothole lip. Experimenting WITH BACKUP in each of these modes is a learning experience. I recently did a canyon that I named Crack City because of the multiple elevator downclimbs, one Sandtrap descent and one potshot "jamb" because there was not enough sand or a favorable position to use the Sandtrap. So the Sandtrap is a useful tool in your quiver, to be used when the situation requires.Also, I do not know how long the garden hose idea has been around, but I came up with the idea, tested it for specific use with the Sandtrap to reduce retrieval pull and it works twofold- reduces pull and prevents rope grooves, as most grooves are a result of the retrieval, not the rap( think continuous moving rope friction on rock)....be safe out there!

[penmartens]

It looks like the hose works sometimes. PG Rob got a 50% success rate in No Kidding. When it doesn't work, what part doesn't; slides down rope, jams,...?

Tom split the hose for ease of application. It sounds like maybe a hose without the split is better. True?

Tom is using about a 3 foot length. Steve, what length are you using? Do you split the hose?

Ideas:
I like the idea along the lines of the technora sheath. I am getting used to carrying the hose, but am not liking it much. It is, admittedly, an obsessive/compulsive thing on my part.

Everyone seems to be attaching the protective sheath to the pull rope which doesn't negate the friction on rock when emptying the trap. What about attaching the sheath(s) to the trap itself and having both the rap rope and the pull rope going through a sheath.

[Scott Card]

Are you losing valuable rope friction with the use of the hose and/or sheath on the rap rope? Seems that the pull over the edge with the pull cord is not that much wear and tear on the rock. Opinions? (I guess some of the answer is how far back from the edge the anchor is)

[PG Rob]

It looks like the hose works sometimes. PG Rob got a 50% success rate in No Kidding. When it doesn't work, what part doesn't; slides down rope, jams,...?

The reason it didn't work was geometry of the pull. You easily can find yourself with 2 major friction points that are more than 3 feet apart. The pull was still fine... you just lose the ability to eliminate rope grooves at 1 of the friction points. I don't think I would ever use it on the rappel rope. On that line, friction is your friend.:nod:
52359

[ratagonia]

Are you losing valuable rope friction with the use of the hose and/or sheath on the rap rope? Seems that the pull over the edge with the pull cord is not that much wear and tear on the rock. Opinions? (I guess some of the answer is how far back from the edge the anchor is)

It's complicated.

Yes, you lose valuable rope friction over the edge, so the weight in the SandTrap needs to be somewhat higher. Not usually a problem. Overall, better to toss more sand on the SandTrap than to create grooves.

While it is not as bad as pulling the entire wet-and-sandy rope through a ring, SandTraps do create rope grooves on both the rappel side and the pull side. For several reasons:

1. Sandtrap worthy canyons tend to be in very soft rock which grooves easily;
2. the sections of pull cord and rappel rope that touch the rope tend to be slightly wet and fully sandy, so they have the maximum groove-cutting potential;
3. The rappel rope tends to bounce up and down somewhat in the process of the rappel. The Trap generally needs to pull UP to the max-weight position, which tends to happen over the course of the rappel, and moves 12 - 24 inches;
4. The pull cord tends to cut grooves too. While there is not a LOT of action on that side, while it is being pulled it requires a pretty hard pull (ie, body weight, sometimes twice body weight) to pull the trap, and that means the dirty pull cord where it crossed the rock will move 24-36 inches at that high tension, which creates grooves. The hose on that side helps decrease the force required considerably.

It does not matter how far back the Trap is. What counts is the angle the rope changes through going over the edge.

Tom

[oldno7]

Do you guys attach the pull side hose/protection to the sandtrap in any way or does the last person set it in position, or both?

As long as the hose/protection is attached to the trap, the pull rope should slide through the protection up to the moment the trap releases.

[ratagonia]

Do you guys attach the pull side hose/protection to the sandtrap in any way or does the last person set it in position, or both?

As long as the hose/protection is attached to the trap, the pull rope should slide through the protection up to the moment the trap releases.

Well, generally it is set up on the pull side whenever the pull side is set up. Might be last, might be earlier.

The problem is on the rap side. The point of contact is often at and over the lip. When the rapper raps, the hose is held in place by tension in the rope, but it can drop down if tension is released. And it can be in the way of getting ON the rope, or of starting the rappel, or both. So, not an ideal tool, maybe the new thingee will work somewhat better.

Easier on the SandTrap and Fiddlestick, as the rope does not need to be pulled through.

Tom

[oldno7]

Well, generally it is set up on the pull side whenever the pull side is set up. Might be last, might be earlier.

The problem is on the rap side. The point of contact is often at and over the lip. When the rapper raps, the hose is held in place by tension in the rope, but it can drop down if tension is released. And it can be in the way of getting ON the rope, or of starting the rappel, or both. So, not an ideal tool, maybe the new thingee will work somewhat better.

Easier on the SandTrap and Fiddlestick, as the rope does not need to be pulled through.

Tom

I guess my question wasn't very clear. If you go back and look at my technora device, it has a small piece of cord attached.

--if that small cord is attached to the front of the trap--the rope will slide more freely.

cord needs to be adjusted for each situation but it will hold the protection in it's intended position, right up to the release of sand from the trap.

cord could also be attached to a part of the stein when fiddlesticking.

[ratagonia]

I guess my question wasn't very clear. If you go back and look at my technora device, it has a small piece of cord attached.

--if that small cord is attached to the front of the trap--the rope will slide more freely.

cord needs to be adjusted for each situation but it will hold the protection in it's intended position, right up to the release of sand from the trap.

cord could also be attached to a part of the stein when fiddlesticking.

yes, but...

I was thinking a more-universal system would include a loop of P-cord on each end of the sleeve, with a plastic biner. Use that to do a Bachman knot up and down. That way it could be placed anywhere along the length, rather than within X length of the SandTrap or Fiddlestick.

T

[oldno7]

yes, but...

I was thinking a more-universal system would include a loop of P-cord on each end of the sleeve, with a plastic biner. Use that to do a Bachman knot up and down. That way it could be placed anywhere along the length, rather than within X length of the SandTrap or Fiddlestick.

T

If it is not attached directly to the trap/fiddlestick it would not be effective.

No additional hardware is needed.

Include a 20' piece of cord with the technora velcro device and all bases are covered, pull and rap sides.

[ratagonia]

If it is not attached directly to the trap/fiddlestick it would not be effective.

No additional hardware is needed.

Include a 20' piece of cord with the technora velcro device and all bases are covered, pull and rap sides.

I'm not seeing what you're saying. Prusiks to the rope seems like the most flexible system, to me.

What if the trap is further than 20' from the edge that need padding?

Tom

[oldno7]

I'm not seeing what you're saying. Prusiks to the rope seems like the most flexible system, to me.

What if the trap is further than 20' from the edge that need padding?

Tom

I think we speak 2 different languages for sure, my language tries to make the complex--simple; yours is to make the simple--complex.:haha:

If the edge needing protection is 25' away from the trap, you need 25' of usable cord.

The protection cannot merely be attached to the rope with a hitch because then when the rope moves the protection moves.

The set up I just took pictures of has the technora sheath velcro'd tightly around the rope but I can pull the pull side through the sheath still, because it is anchored to the trap.

It's a nice day--go out in your yard, set it up and see if it makes any more sense.

[penmartens]

Thanks for all the input and especially for all the drawings and photos. They are very helpful since we can't all be face-to-face.
We have a trapping canyon planned in a couple weeks. I think I'll rig something like 'the technora attached to the trap' and see how that goes. I'll report back.
Yes, friction is our friend when rapping on these types of anchors, so perhaps a slick inner surface hose isn't the way to go on the rap side. What about a fabric? I wouldn't think that would cut down on the friction much.
Oldno, did you buy the technora sheath or did you sew it yourself?

So, here's another question: Tom said traps aren't usually stacked, but potshots have been used on top of traps. What about using traps side by side on a flat surface, similar to 2 anchor points that climbers use?

[oldno7]

Thanks for all the input and especially for all the drawings and photos. They are very helpful since we can't all be face-to-face.
We have a trapping canyon planned in a couple weeks. I think I'll rig something like 'the technora attached to the trap' and see how that goes. I'll report back.
Yes, friction is our friend when rapping on these types of anchors, so perhaps a slick inner surface hose isn't the way to go on the rap side. What about a fabric? I wouldn't think that would cut down on the friction much.
Oldno, did you buy the technora sheath or did you sew it yourself?

So, here's another question: Tom said traps aren't usually stacked, but potshots have been used on top of traps. What about using traps side by side on a flat surface, similar to 2 anchor points that climbers use?

It would be a frightful day if I attempted to sew anything. I posted a link a ways back to the company that manufactured these.

I think multiple traps would work great as long as time is spent making sure they are equalized. The more inline, the better.(ie. one in front of the other, rather than side by side)

Could run into complications on the pull?

[Spidey]

Scott,
What did your group do, if anything, to avoid the problems that have been cited for No Kidding?
I am assuming that Spidey did the little down climb that PG Rob talked about. Anything else?

I down climbed a couple drops that day as the LAMAR. We might have even used my 4 and 7 year olds as LAMAR at a drop. I can't remember great canyon though, my boys loved it. Oh Yeah SANDTRAP RULES!!

[Scott Card]

We might have even used my 4 and 7 year olds as LAMAR at a drop. I can't remember great canyon though, my boys loved it.
In case anyone's heart just skipped a beat, HE'S KIDDING. Dude...:lol8:

[ratagonia]

It would be a frightful day if I attempted to sew anything. I posted a link a ways back to the company that manufactured these.

I think multiple traps would work great as long as time is spent making sure they are equalized. The more inline, the better.(ie. one in front of the other, rather than side by side)

Could run into complications on the pull?

What situations are you imagining where double traps would be useful, , ie, a better solution than using the same sand on one trap?

It's an interesting idea - I'm just having trouble coming up more than one or two obscure situations where it would prove useful, so I am wondering what situations you are thinking of where it would offer advantages.

Tom

[penmartens]

I down climbed a couple drops that day as the LAMAR. We might have even used my 4 and 7 year olds as LAMAR at a drop. I can't remember great canyon though, my boys loved it. Oh Yeah SANDTRAP RULES!!

When using the 4 and 7 year olds as backup, did you use them stacked, side by side, or in tandem? I've got a couple grandkids about those ages.

[moab mark]

What is the fiddlestick you two are talking about?

[penmartens]

Tom,
The situations I was thinking of are obscure. If I told you a specific place then you would probably want to see a picture and I don't have time to dig it up. I was thinking of a wide flat area with no lip. Say, if the last rap in Inferno didn't have the pot hole to use as an anchor.
I am just trying to further the conversation, here.

[oldno7]

What situations are you imagining where double traps would be useful, , ie, a better solution than using the same sand on one trap?

It's an interesting idea - I'm just having trouble coming up more than one or two obscure situations where it would prove useful, so I am wondering what situations you are thinking of where it would offer advantages.

Tom

The sleeve attached to the trap worked didn't it:lol8:

Really just playing along(multiple traps), interesting thoughts though, you must agree.

I don't have it yet, but I'll try to come up with a potential scenario.

Just having these conversations can only open our minds and sharpen our thought process'

Being content and "knowing" something can only be used in a certain way, hence closing down all new conversation, can't be too advantageous.

Penny spelled out that there needs to be designations between tried and proven methods vs. ideas. Seems reasonable to me.

[oldno7]

What is the fiddlestick you two are talking about?

A releasable rigging designed to help eliminate or minimize grooving in sandstone as a result of difficult rope pulls.

Did you see my conversation about a stein hitch/knot? That is the basis. If you replace my drafting ruler with a piece of fiberglass that is approximately 1/4" thickX 1 1/4 wide and 8-10" long, you have a fiddlestick.

You rap on a rope attached to ???? with a stein.
Your pull side, for the last guy only, is the stick, inserted into the stein creating the hitch.

[ratagonia]

How about if I promise to not ask for pictures??? :cool2:

I know SA Steve and Jonathan did a stack on Lake Powell, when they were using a flat placement for a guided rappel, and need to put a lot of force on the anchor, even for the last person. They had the advantage of it being the last rap, and being able to use the boat to pull.

Even in a flat placement with little to no geometric advantage, it seems like you can put the double load of sand on the trap, opened out flat (Tostada style) and achieve the desired result, especially with a hose on the retrieval side.

When doing the mega-sand Tostada, it helps to make a nice crease down the middle of the trap to help start the pull/dump action.

I'd be concerned with stacked traps that the sand from the top trap would just end up on top of the bottom trap.

Seems like we've had a few cases where we wanted to add more weight, but the awkward stance did not make putting more sand in the trap seem like a good idea. So we loaded up some potshots, left the tops open and put them atop the SandTrap; then pulled them off first with a separate rope (or with the pull side, tied off to pull the PotShots first and get them clear before reaching the pull/dump strap.

I can see the side by side equalized traps in flat terrain, but also just putting that same amount of sand on one tarp might be better. Then again, if you only had mud... maybe the side by side would work much better, as pulling/dumping mud might be very problematic.

T

[moab mark]

A releasable rigging designed to help eliminate or minimize grooving in sandstone as a result of difficult rope pulls.

Did you see my conversation about a stein hitch/knot? That is the basis. If you replace my drafting ruler with a piece of fiberglass that is approximately 1/4" thickX 1 1/4 wide and 8-10" long, you have a fiddlestick.

You rap on a rope attached to ???? with a stein.
Your pull side, for the last guy only, is the stick, inserted into the stein creating the hitch.

Thats what I thought. I have a post on here where I played with that concept quite a bit. I had a hard time getting the knot to collapse when I pulled the rod out.

[PG Rob]

I am getting used to carrying the hose, but am not liking it much. It is, admittedly, an obsessive/compulsive thing on my part.

If you do not like carrying it, I would be happy to carry it for you. I just started using it this last trip, and don't suspect I will get sick of carrying it for some time.

[penmartens]

Rob,
If you are carrying the hose, I hope that doesn't mean I am carrying everything else.
I just talked to Dave last night about doing a trip with you. I have several in mind for this spring. I'll pm you.

Oldno,
I clicked every clickable item on the link provided. I guess I have to order the old fashioned way, by phone. I hope to get to that by the end of the day. Thanks. I CAN sew, but I think I'll get one of theirs first.

Tom,
A couple of things:
It has been a few years, but what about the last rap in Foolin' Around as a flat featureless rapping station?

Also, you said the trap moves 12-24 inches during rappelling. Does it do that everytime? Or are you talking about when it is in a hanging position?

You said you use some 8 mil rope to extend your retrieval rope from the trap. Canyon Devil had asked about using webbing there instead. What do you think?

Would someone like to address ascending on sandtraps or potshots?
I know Tom did when the trap stuck in No Kidding and Spidey did some amazing batman-ing out of the big pothole in Smiling Cricket.

[ndonaldj]

penmartens
Rope protectors like that are used a lot in caving. They are made by many companies. Here are a few I have used:

http://landjoff.com/product/15/rope-protector.html
By far the cheapest, but I ordered 3 of them on Feb 8, and just got them today. They are pretty heavy duty PVC.

http://www.amazon.com/Spiroll-Rope-Protector-Orange/dp/B001N0QGJU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332433014&sr=8-1
These are an interesting idea, they grab the rope really well so you dont have to constantly check the position.

http://www.amazon.com/Petzl-Protec-Rope-Protector/dp/B00186TCUY/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1332433067&sr=1-1
The classic Petzl rope protector is also a durable pvc type.

Using a section of fire hose also works really well.

[RAM]

Hope no one minds my input. I have used the sandtrap as much as anyone I suspect.
Some observations and speculations, if I may....in no particular order

The thing works.
Those that use it a few times become believers
I have never seen a place where stacking potshots works, where the sandtrap doesn't
Knowing how to stack potshots is still a skill worth knowing
The trap fills a niche. When it doesn't work, something else will
One trap by itself really works. Confidence in it is gained by use. Stacking or double traps has not been needed after several 100 applications so far. Not saying it may never be needed, but...
The hose works. Lay something, cloth, pack etc under the rap rope and use the hose for the pull
Other methods to wrap the rope such as the one Kurt suggests will likely work too.
The trap will often move forward a few feet before dumping its load, so plan for that
When the sides of the trap (or where the trap is pulled forward to) don't have at least 1/2 foot on each side for the sand to dump, you may be in trouble
I fear that adding hooks creates an additional way for the trap to get stuck....hooks catch amazingly well.
Four people is an ideal number for using it.
Three folks gets sketchier but still works. More experience recommended then
Two sandtraps work well with 6 people, with a rotating fourth person moving back and forth and available at each anchor
There is no reason not to back up the trap every time, except the last person
Its OK for the big first person, to be somewhat aggressive on rap
Make sure the back up takes no weight on the rappel. Its no test if you do
Rap with care, creating a bend in the rope, on the lip, before the weighting of the thing
Slide down, low weight rapping is the standard
The system is tested a lot more when the one goes free on rappel. Forces jump
The sandtrap commits a lot of rope to each rappel. I usually suggest .7 ropes per person in the canyon...or more
Potshots are usually needed when the sandtrap is used, to transport sand
The sandtrap fits in a potshot for carrying in your pack perfectly
Don't have everyone leave the last sand location, when approaching rappels, until other sources downcanyon have been confirmed
Sand can be brought from below the rappel
Sand brought up from below the rap is challenging not to leave grooves. Be careful with raising.
Gravel under a trap can lessen friction a lot
The dry fluffy sand is best
Small rocks with sand is less than ideal. Take the time to filter
If you have rocks in the trap, don't forget to duck when pulling the trap ;-)
You can figure the trap out on your own. It is faster and safer to have someone seasoned with the thing along to mitigate some of the learning curve.
There is a lot more nuance to the thing

I appreciate the discussion of new ideas for the trap and don't want to be classified as "stuck in a rut or mud" as to its applications. But the thing requires depth of experience to really master its basic use. Time spent getting it nuance and gaining that knowledge and confidence on what it does do so well, is wise. From there, one would better know what improvements might improve the trap and its use . YMMV.
Ram

[Scott Card]

Excellent. Thanks Ram. :2thumbs:

[ghawk]

Excellent. Thanks Ram. :2thumbs:

X2 - very helpful. thanks :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Tom,
A couple of things:
It has been a few years, but what about the last rap in Foolin' Around as a flat featureless rapping station?

Also, you said the trap moves 12-24 inches during rappelling. Does it do that everytime? Or are you talking about when it is in a hanging position?

You said you use some 8 mil rope to extend your retrieval rope from the trap. Canyon Devil had asked about using webbing there instead. What do you think?

Would someone like to address ascending on sandtraps or potshots?
I know Tom did when the trap stuck in No Kidding and Spidey did some amazing batman-ing out of the big pothole in Smiling Cricket.

If you have not used a SandTrap on a flat location, it is easy. You pile a LOT of sand on it, until it barely twitches when loaded. This is done Tostada style, and it is important to make a substantial groove down the middle of the sand, to help start the pulling/dumping process.

If the location is downward sloping, then it is not going to work. The physics just isn't there.

Webbing tends to have more friction on rock than rope. So you can use webbing to extend the pull side, but it will increase the force.

Before ascending on something that is stuck, I consider it REAL IMPORTANT to make sure it will not come undone while I am jugging. Two people pulling real hard and bouncing up and down is required to make sure it is true and securely stuck. Jugging up gently is also a good idea. Being very careful at transitions is especially important. Moving aggressively over the top edge could change the loading on the 'stuck' anchor and cause it to instantly become 'unstuck'; which could result in you becoming 'unalive'.

Before ascending anything, one should consider the consequences. Is it really NECESSARY to do that? If I got my rope stuck on the last rap in Behunin, I would not jug it - I would do the canyon again the next day to retrieve it. If my rope got stuck in Lodge Canyon, I would not jug it, because I was smart enough to bring an extra rope because they get stuck there all the time!

Tom :moses:

[penmartens]

ndonaldj--thanks for the other links

Tom, tell me more about this crease, or groove, in tostada mode. Does it run lengthwise in the direction of the pull, or crosswise?

I think everyone would agree that jugging on a trap would be a last ditch effort and mighty scary.

[ratagonia]

ndonaldj--thanks for the other links

Tom, tell me more about this crease, or groove, in tostada mode. Does it run lengthwise in the direction of the pull, or crosswise?

I think everyone would agree that jugging on a trap would be a last ditch effort and mighty scary.

If you imagine pulling the SandTrap, the pull strap first goes tight, then starts by making a groove, then squeezes it up to start dumping sand. The part that takes the most force is when it starts making a groove. If you make the groove ahead of time, it decreases the force required to start the pulling process.

Tom

[penmartens]

Our group did No Kidding on 4/3 with completely dry conditions, lots of sunshine, and wind. We didn't notice the wind much once we dropped in. It was a perfect day to spend time experimenting and playing with potshots/sandtraps.
We used a sandtrap for the very first rap. We all were impressed with the ease of use. We made a small berm at the front edge to assist with geometry. It worked very well. It didn't move at all. To protect the pull, we slid two sections of webbing over the pull cord (I hadn't had time to order a rope protector) and positioned them at the two contact points with the rock. This worked very well. The rope slid nicely through.
That is the only place we used the trap. Unfortunately, the other places seemed less than desirable for a trap. From our understanding of traps, we felt the stations were too narrow to allow for dumping. It is obviously incorrect since both Spidey and Tom have used traps in those places, but we were not willing to give it a try.
We used one traditional deadman and retrieved that rope at the end of the day. We dismantled the anchor so others can enjoy playing.
We used a releasable knot chock at the last rap. It would have been a good place for a trap, but it also had a crack that the releasable knot worked well in.
The rest of the raps we used stacked potshots. They were all solid placements with no movement, except for one rap. It was into a semi-keeper pothole (Canyondevil had done a magnificent imitation of Spidey throwing a potshot across the pothole), but we just couldn't set the shots firm. They slid each time and Luke had to put a knee down to brace them when people went over a lip that was about halfway down. After much finessing, the only other thing we could think to do different was to move the shots and clean the sand from under them to give more friction. Luke rapped next and they still moved. I, as one of the lightweights and most experienced rappellers, had opted to go last. I rapped as gently as I ever have, didn't hesitate at the lip, and was down without anything moving. I guess that is the 40 pound difference between Luke and I.
Some of our observations:
Potshots seem to work well when hanging or almost hanging off the back side of a lip. They aren't so great on even slightly downsloping rock.
Potshots with pinky sized holes are not so good for holding sand.
Potshots should have some kind of sheath to protect the rock.
More shots partially full is better than fewer completely full.
It is truly mesmerizing to pull gently on a rope and watch shots come over the edge, colorful and swinging free like scarves out of a hat.
We were safe, but came away feeling less than proficient in shot placement and no further along in trap placement but sold on its use.
We are ready to go again for more experimenting and fun.
Penny

[PG Rob]

Potshots should have some kind of sheath to protect the rock.
What do you mean by this? Are you talking about the pull, the rappel rope, or the potshots themselves?

[penmartens]

Sorry, about that. I had too many interuptions while trying to compose. I meant to say some kind of sheath to protect the rope, specifically the pull.

[canyondevil]

This is the one that gave us the most trouble. It is the drop that dumps into the big KPH. We probably could have done a pack drag, but wanted to play with the shots and trap. The geometry didnt look like the trap would allow it to dump before it went into the pinch (which is difficult to see from the picture). We ended up digging the sand out down to the bare rock and the shots held. Rob, do you remember this one? Would the trap have dumped suffiently enough to pull through the pinch?52708

[PG Rob]

Rob, do you remember this one? Would the trap have dumped suffiently enough to pull through the pinch?
Sorry... We downclimbed that one. I don't exactly remember, but I think there was a fairly wide ledge (4-5 feet) that sloped to the left. It was about a 12-15 foot drop right? I think there would have been enough space RDC (bottom in the picture) to set up the sandtrap in tostada mode and have a clean pull.

[canyondevil]

Yes, it was about 12-15 ft into the KPH. It certainly didnt have to be rapped. The wall on the right got steep in a hurry too at the lip although the perspective in the picture doesnt show it well. We were afraid we would have to pull the trap through where our ropes go over the edge and get all jammed up in there full of sand. We didnt think about it in tostada mode, that might have worked. Dang, I guess we have to go back and do it again!

[Scott Card]

Our group did No Kidding on 4/3 with completely dry conditions, lots of sunshine, and wind. We didn't notice the wind much once we dropped in. It was a perfect day to spend time experimenting and playing with potshots/sandtraps.
We used a sandtrap for the very first rap. We all were impressed with the ease of use. We made a small berm at the front edge to assist with geometry. It worked very well. It didn't move at all. To protect the pull, we slid two sections of webbing over the pull cord (I hadn't had time to order a rope protector) and positioned them at the two contact points with the rock. This worked very well. The rope slid nicely through.
That is the only place we used the trap. Unfortunately, the other places seemed less than desirable for a trap. From our understanding of traps, we felt the stations were too narrow to allow for dumping. It is obviously incorrect since both Spidey and Tom have used traps in those places, but we were not willing to give it a try.
We used one traditional deadman and retrieved that rope at the end of the day. We dismantled the anchor so others can enjoy playing.
We used a releasable knot chock at the last rap. It would have been a good place for a trap, but it also had a crack that the releasable knot worked well in.
The rest of the raps we used stacked potshots. They were all solid placements with no movement, except for one rap. It was into a semi-keeper pothole (Canyondevil had done a magnificent imitation of Spidey throwing a potshot across the pothole), but we just couldn't set the shots firm. They slid each time and Luke had to put a knee down to brace them when people went over a lip that was about halfway down. After much finessing, the only other thing we could think to do different was to move the shots and clean the sand from under them to give more friction. Luke rapped next and they still moved. I, as one of the lightweights and most experienced rappellers, had opted to go last. I rapped as gently as I ever have, didn't hesitate at the lip, and was down without anything moving. I guess that is the 40 pound difference between Luke and I.
Some of our observations:
Potshots seem to work well when hanging or almost hanging off the back side of a lip. They aren't so great on even slightly downsloping rock.
Potshots with pinky sized holes are not so good for holding sand.
Potshots should have some kind of sheath to protect the rock.
More shots partially full is better than fewer completely full.
It is truly mesmerizing to pull gently on a rope and watch shots come over the edge, colorful and swinging free like scarves out of a hat.
We were safe, but came away feeling less than proficient in shot placement and no further along in trap placement but sold on its use.
We are ready to go again for more experimenting and fun.
Penny


:2thumbs::2thumbs::2thumbs:

[penmartens]

Sorry... We downclimbed that one. I don't exactly remember, but I think there was a fairly wide ledge (4-5 feet) that sloped to the left. It was about a 12-15 foot drop right? I think there would have been enough space RDC (bottom in the picture) to set up the sandtrap in tostada mode and have a clean pull.

Rob, I think you are correct. The trap in tostada mode might have been just what was needed there. I think the extra area of friction plus being able to dump out the back and sides instead of just the sides would have solved the problem.

[ratagonia]

Rob, I think you are correct. The trap in tostada mode might have been just what was needed there. I think the extra area of friction plus being able to dump out the back and sides instead of just the sides would have solved the problem.

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllll, I think you may have misunderstood the Tostada, at least the way we use it. When rappelling, it is a Tostada, but when being pulled, it changes into a Taco. Otherwise there is no cleaning mechanism.

When looking at narrow slots, it is often best to set up the SandTrap many feet back from the edge. Partly, to give the trap time to clear before getting to the narrow spot. Partly, by the time it gets to the narrow spot the Trap might be flying through the air and go over the top.

Tom

[PG Rob]

When rappelling, it is a Tostada, but when being pulled, it changes into a Taco. Otherwise there is no cleaning mechanism.
This^^^ When you pull to retrieve it, it pulls the back over the top of rest of the trap, folding it and pushing sand out the sides. That, along with having more sand, is why it takes more effort to pull and a further distance to dump.

Rob, I think you are correct. The trap in tostada mode might have been just what was needed there. I think the extra area of friction plus being able to dump out the back and sides instead of just the sides would have solved the problem.
Still from memory... I was suggesting tostada mode for the added friction. After rappelling the drop and ascending the far side of the pothole, you would have a better leveraged position to pull it. Also, it is probably coming over the edge with plenty of sand still along for the ride. That pothole is directly below the ledge and there is not a lot of room down there, so if you pulled it from the bottom you would get a major sand shower.

[penmartens]

Tom,
Congrats on being post 100 and getting us to page 6.
You are correct in that I might have pictured the tostada differently. If the trap is flat and the pull comes up over the top of the sand, it will turn into a taco.
What if the pull runs underneath the trap with the recommended groove running the entire length of the tostado? It might become an inside out taco or perhaps just bunch up and stick.
On the particular drop we are talking about I don't think the trap would become airborne before the pinch, at least, not with me pulling it.

[ratagonia]

Tom,
Congrats on being post 100 and getting us to page 6.
You are correct in that I might have pictured the tostada differently. If the trap is flat and the pull comes up over the top of the sand, it will turn into a taco.
What if the pull runs underneath the trap with the recommended groove running the entire length of the tostado? It might become an inside out taco or perhaps just bunch up and stick.
On the particular drop we are talking about I don't think the trap would become airborne before the pinch, at least, not with me pulling it.

Hmmm, interesting idea, an inverted release... It might be worth a try, but I think the force required to pull underneath might be too high.

T

[PG Rob]

On the particular drop we are talking about I don't think the trap would become airborne before the pinch, at least, not with me pulling it.

After rappelling the drop and ascending the far side of the pothole, you would have a better leveraged position to pull it. Also, it is probably coming over the edge with plenty of sand still along for the ride. That pothole is directly below the ledge and there is not a lot of room down there, so if you pulled it from the bottom you would get a major sand shower.
It can get over the edge there... you will just not want to be below it.

[PG Rob]

Hmmm, interesting idea, an inverted release... It might be worth a try, but I think the force required to pull underneath might be too high.
Tom... What if a 2nd piece of webbing was sewn into the sandtrap, between layers of fabric, and in tostada mode would allow the trap to bunch up down the center, like a gather stitch in sewing?

[canyondevil]

get a major sand shower

Speaking of sand showers...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY5o_YPTxU0

[ratagonia]

Tom... What if a 2nd piece of webbing was sewn into the sandtrap, between layers of fabric, and in tostada mode would allow the trap to bunch up down the center, like a gather stitch in sewing?

The same problem really. Making anything happen underneath 80 lbs of sand will likely prove difficult.

Tom

[sasteve49]

I know this is an older thread, but I thought I would comment on the placement of the Sandtrap in the 2nd photo. This should have been a "tortilla" setup,ie: Sandtrap flat and rap rope attached only to bottom 2 webbing loops. The "taco" setup only used when behind a definite hanging lip as in potholes. See attached vid for the "tortilla" setup. This is actually a Sandtrap Sandwich, for raps where more sand is required. The pull would be impossible with only one Sandtrap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSsvoRYj8TM