How to rappel from 300 feet

[Slot Machine]

I have been told that rappelling from 300 feet is considerably different than doing shorter rappels. To those that have done a 300 footer: What makes this length of rap so different? What rappel device do you prefer for a 300 footer and why? Did you add friction on the way down and how did you do it? What mistakes have you made or seen others make?

See, I'm building a tower in my back yard and would like to know to safely descend it once it's completed. :haha:

Bob http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/3.gif

[Brian in SLC]

Most follks don't have two 300 foot lengths of rope...so...a 300 foot rappel is usually done single strand.

Weight of the rope changes a bunch over the course of the rappel (ie, the rope below your brake hand). I tend to be conservative on my friction at the top, even to the point of having to feed the rope.

I prefer two ATC's, one atop the other (extended with a sling to my harness). Also will add a biner to each leg loop that I can snap into if need be. And have another handy to add on top of the upper ATC, so, I can z rig it if I need additional friction (poor man's hyper bar).

Depends on the drop, but, most 300 footers are 300 footers due to the terrain. Englestead is steep, but, not really free air and most folks don't like that small exposed rappel station to stop and deal with. Heaps is another. Mostly all free. Just you on the nylon highway...

Also depends on the diameter and type of rope too.

[tcott]

Like he said, the weight of the rope changes dramatically from the top to the bottom. I usually use and ats with a vt prusik rigged above it. The vt prusik adds a fair amount of friction and also makes it easy to stop and take a break if needed while still being releasable. The ats lets you add friction towards the bottom if need be.

[Slot Machine]

I prefer two ATC's, one atop the other (extended with a sling to my harness). Also will add a biner to each leg loop that I can snap into if need be. And have another handy to add on top of the upper ATC, so, I can z rig it if I need additional friction (poor man's hyper bar).


Brian,
Thanks for the reply and the description. To make sure I'm understanding, is this what you mean?

EDIT: BELOW IS NOT THE CORRECT WAY TO DO WHAT BRIAN DESCRIBED.

5158851589

Feel free to laugh if this is incorrect. Also, I would use different carabiners (and screw them shut) in a real life scenario. The chances of falling to my death in the living room seemed really low when I took this picture. :haha:

[spinesnaper]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Michael_WB]

Carabiner errors aside, I sincerely hope you were at least wearing a helmet.

[tcott]

Here's my setup

[Iceaxe]

What Brian in SLC said. :2thumbs:

And "NO" that's not how to stack ATC's. You attach one to your harness in the normal fashion (bottom ATC). You clip a short sling into your harness and attach an ATC to the sling (top ATC). You run your rope through the top ATC and than the bottom. when you rappel the ATC's will be about 18" apart if you rigged correctly. This makes for a very smooth rappel on long skinny, single strand rope.

I used to stack ATC's, but now I just use a Z-rig if I want more friction. I can't image a situation where I'd need both stacked ATC's and a Z-rig.

[Slot Machine]

Carabiner errors aside, I sincerely hope you were at least wearing a helmet.

It's funny you mention that...

So I was rappelling in my living room and I hear my wife yell the word every climber/mountaineer/canyoneer/parent dreads hearing-

"BLOCK!!"

My wife only yells this when a wooden toy block is heading my way. So I quickly think- Do I look up? Do I keep my head down? But then it was too late... I don't remember what happened next.

51591
Assessing obstacles and hazards, typical Saturday morning around my house.


51592
I have to give myself credit for holding on with my brake hand, even while unconscious.


51594
This block could have been the end of me. Remember to always wear your helmet while canyoneering at home.


51595
Special thanks to the local search and rescue for helping me out of this mess. :hail2thechief:

[Slot Machine]

What Brian in SLC said. :2thumbs:

And "NO" that's not how to stack ATC's. You attach one to your harness in the normal fashion (bottom ATC). You clip a short sling into your harness and attach an ATC to the sling (top ATC). You run your rope through the top ATC and than the bottom. when you rappel the ATC's will be about 18" apart if you rigged correctly. This makes for a very smooth rappel on long skinny, single strand rope.

I used to stack ATC's, but now I just use a Z-rig if I want more friction. I can't image a situation where I'd need both stacked ATC's and a Z-rig.

I just got back from the hospital and they said I should take it easy for a few days. I think those doctors are a bunch of softies. I can't simply give up living room canyoneering now! Back on the horse!

This is how stacked ATC's are supposed to be rigged (makes much more sense):

51596
w/o Z rig


51597
with Z rig

Thanks Shane for the correction, and thanks tcott for the example.

[remoteman45]

Slot machine, looks like you've got good reason to make sure you're rigged correctly. You make sure you always do it safely so you get to come home to that little boy cause some day he'll grow up and wanna go canyoneering with his Dad.

My son and I in our first canyon - Behunin. We got helmets shortly after this.

In Englestead last year on an 8mm rope, I used a pirana and a leg biner and had plenty of friction.

[moabmatt]

Hi Bob,

I'm a big fan of the ABC Figure 8. How I rig it for a long rappel depends on several factors, of course, including the diameter of the rope, how much weight it's supporting, dry rap or in a waterfall, am I wearing gloves and so on. For the record I'm 160# and probably half the time I'm rapping with a 20-40# pack hanging off my harness. I'm strong and young (so I like to think!). I mention this because personal info is very important. Your body weight and, perhaps more important, your strength-to-weight ratio account for a lot of how you should set up your rappel device. Also, I don't use autoblocks or other self belays like the VT.

I typically use 10mm for guided trips and 8mm for personal trips and rappel single strand. For the 10mm I rig the Fig8 in regular mode, assuming I'm wearing a glove. This does create a lot of friction and slows me down a bit at the top so I'll have to pull up and feed rope through the Fig8 for the first 50 feet or so. I use both hands below the device, alternating so as to pull up the rope in a continuous manner. This limits the start/stop bouncing action that's common when only pulling up with one hand. This makes for a more comfortable rappel, puts less stress on the anchor and helps maintain your momentum down the rope. Maintaining momentum is important in quickly getting to that sweet spot on a long rappel where you can stop pulling up rope and simply let the rope slide through on its own. Enjoy that sweet spot while you can, because in another 50-100 feet or so you'll have to engage your brake hand on the rope to start slowing yourself down. This lasts for another 50-100 feet or so until you get to that spot where you'll want additional friction. If it's a free-hanging rappel (or some other rappel where I don't need my non-brake hand free to do something; ie brace against a wall for balance, manhandle a pack hanging off my harness, take photos...) then I first add additional friction by taking my non-brake hand and grabbing the D-Ring on my harness and the rope below the Fig8 and squeezing the rope into my D-Ring. This adds a tremendous amount of friction and helps give my brake hand some relief. This trick oftentimes provides enough friction that I can completely remove my brake hand and give it a rest or do something else with it. If I want additional friction further down - and I usually do - then I'll clip the rope into a carabiner on my leg loop and pull up. This puts an additional bend in the rope and usually adds just the right amount of friction. Typically I'll clip the rope into that leg loop carabiner when I'm at that sweet spot on the rappel where my brake hand is free to do things like clip carabiners. The time that you need the additional friction is not the time to be fiddling with clipping carabiners! You could even clip your leg loop carabiner at the start of the rappel since it really doesn't interfere with typical rappelling techniques.

For an 8mm I'll rig as described for the 10mm but have another carabiner clipped to my D-Ring ready to set up a Z-Rig if necessary.

The things I've noticed that really make a difference are:
A: Full fingered gloves. I normally rappel without them, but on a long rappel they are much appreciated. While I always stress using gear to add friction so as to save your hands, sometimes gear just doesn't cut it. Sometimes it adds too little friction or too much. Oftentimes your grip with a gloved hand is the best tool for microadjusting that friction.
B: Keeping your hands braced against something. For example, while rappelling if you let your brake hand float around so it's not braced against something then that usually results in a jerky rappel. Obviously this tip only comes into play once you've passed that sweet spot on the rappel where you need to have your brake hand on the rope to slow down. To smooth things out when you get to the bottom of the rappel and things wanna get bouncy, keep your hand firmly fixed against something such as your hip or butt. This makes it much easier (for me, anyway) to regulate the rope through your hand. When using a leg loop carabiner for added friction I always place my hand right up against the carabiner, not out away from it (By the way, keeping your hand on the biner allows you to add even more friction by not only redirecting the rope through a carabiner, but by also grabbing the rope that's coming out the opposite side of the carabiner. You're basically pinching the rope into itself around the carabiner. This trick sometimes eliminates the need for the Z-Rig).

By the way, in the bottom pictures I'd get rid of that carabiner that's attached to your belay loop and dyneema sling. Ungirth that sling and simply thread it through your belay loop and clip both ends into the upper carabiner ("basket" style). This eliminates a bit of carabiner clutter on your belay loop and...may reduce the chance that the rope going into the lower ATC will rub up against that dyneema. It probaby wouldn't happen anyway since the upper ATC is gonna take the majority of the load and the two belay loop carabiners will be a bit offset, but webbing getting rubbed and pinched between two pieces of metal (one of which is kinda sharp) on a long rappel gives me pause.

[ilipichicuma]

I'm no expert here, but I think the majority of these solutions seem a little excessive. I've only rappelled a full 300 feet once, and it was mostly free hanging. I have a Sterling ATS. I put it in default high friction mode, as well as putting the rope behind the bottom-left phone. I had a leg loop carabiner as well as another one in the big hole to set up a Z-Rig if I needed it, but I didn't end up needing it. I just added friction by wrapping the right horns and then toward the very bottom I put the rope into my leg loop biner, though that wasn't really necessary. Bear in mind here that I weigh 250 pounds. I was entirely in control the whole time. So, basically, while it's always good to be safe, it seems to me like stacked ATCs AND a Z-rig would be excessive.

[ratagonia]

There are many ways to skin the cat, and these are worthy. But I would like to point out, in the pictures show:

If you have the extension off your belay loop to an ATC, and then the other ATC on your belay loop, all those things are in a straight line and you run the risk of the rope running across your extension sling. Thus, it is a good idea to separate thing vertically (the extension sling does that) and also horizontally, for instance by putting the second ATC on your leg loop. The load on the second ATC is small, therefore putting it on the leg loop does not screw up your balance very much.

Using the two ATC's, I always found the problem was getting the friction low enough. Two ATC's at the lowest setting tended to be just a little too much at the top, and maybe pretty good at the bottom.

Nice Pics... :2thumbs:

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

I'm no expert here, but I think the majority of these solutions seem a little excessive. I've only rappelled a full 300 feet once, and it was mostly free hanging. I have a Sterling ATS. I put it in default high friction mode, as well as putting the rope behind the bottom-left phone. I had a leg loop carabiner as well as another one in the big hole to set up a Z-Rig if I needed it, but I didn't end up needing it. I just added friction by wrapping the right horns and then toward the very bottom I put the rope into my leg loop biner, though that wasn't really necessary. Bear in mind here that I weigh 250 pounds. I was entirely in control the whole time. So, basically, while it's always good to be safe, it seems to me like stacked ATCs AND a Z-rig would be excessive.

My observation in the past, ilip, is that you have very strong hands and like a relatively low-friction set up.

I agree that the double ATCs PLUS Z-Rig will probably be way too much.

My observation has been that a friction adjustment will need to be made at least once in the descent, so there is no perfect rig that will work the whole way (excepting a rack).

Setting the friction too high can result in very bad things happening (a cue for Brian)... and it is very clear that too low of a setting can also result in very bad things happening.

I'll try to shoot some pics tonight of the rigging I use that seems to work pretty well.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

it seems to me like stacked ATCs AND a Z-rig would be excessive.

It really just depends as there are so many variables when rappeling.... but its always a good idea to have plenty of tools in your toolbox. I use one or the other, but not both at the same time.



My observation has been that a friction adjustment will need to be made at least once in the descent, so there is no perfect rig that will work the whole way (excepting a rack).

^^^THIS^^^

[Brian in SLC]

Hilarious livin' large in the living room shots. Really glad you had your helmet on...

I usually girth hitch the sling my upper ATC on to my harness (same location as I'd tie in through) and then the other ATC off the belay loop. That separates them a fair bit.

Had a friend nearly pass out from spinning using a figure eight on that last rappel out of Heaps.

I kinda like the mid size Rock Exotica mini eight. Be a nice way to add friction, either stacked like the ATC's, or, on the leg loop like Tom suggests.

Have used a B52 with a munter on the leg for the Englestead rappel, but, those munters can really twist the rope a bit, but, sweet for additional friction.

Yeah, too much friction, especially if you bounce, can be no bueno. Still, after re-watchin' that guy who was saved by God in Englestead plummet the last 100 feet of that rappel, I'd rather go slow and feed the rope, try to be smooth, and then hopefully the last half or better will be sweet sailing.

Mini rack is uber nice.

One method I know a few photographers use to stop and start, that's fairly smooth, is to pitch an ATC out from the harness on a sling, then, add a Gri Gri to the belay loop. Looks great, and, can lock up and stop and restart no problem if need be. Newer Gri Gri's are pretty small and compact and are purported to work better on smaller diameter ropes.

Take a while to figure out what works for you. Body weight, hand pressure, position, rope diameter, etc, all play into it.

Cheers!

[xxnitsuaxx]

Had a friend nearly pass out from spinning using a figure eight on that last rappel out of Heaps.


I thought I was the only jackass that happened to! I was on a Totem and was spinning a good 60 revolutions per second by the time I touched down and I still don't know how I didn't puke everywhere.

I've been curious about why I was spinning so violently. It was dark when we finished and I didn't see that we stuck the rope in a tree until I rapped down on top of it. I always thought that was the reason for the spinning; that the rope got stuck and the gyrations couldn't shake out of it. Can any of you more experienced types tell me if that's a factor or if that'll happen with figure 8s regardless?

And Cliff - you wear your weight well! I'd figure you for 220, tops!! :stud:

[ratagonia]

I thought I was the only jackass that happened to! I was on a Totem and was spinning a good 60 revolutions per second by the time I touched down and I still don't know how I didn't puke everywhere.

I've been curious about why I was spinning so violently. It was dark when we finished and I didn't see that we stuck the rope in a tree until I rapped down on top of it. I always thought that was the reason for the spinning; that the rope got stuck and the gyrations couldn't shake out of it. Can any of you more experienced types tell me if that's a factor or if that'll happen with figure 8s regardless?

And Cliff - you wear your weight well! I'd figure you for 220, tops!! :stud:

Tree had nothing to do with it.

Any time the rope path is not in a plane running through your rappel device, it will impart twists to the rope. Running through an ATC, or a rack, the rope is in one plane. A figure 8 rigged in Figure-8 mode imparts a LOT of twisting to the rope, as does a Munter Hitch. A Pirana and a Figure 8 in Canyon mode produce somewhat less than half the twisting force.

It seems like when you rap, you drive twists both up and down the rope, so as you get lower on that long free rap, there are more twists above you which cause you to spin. If your bottom belayer steps out of line and applies a little tension to the rope, they should be able to stop the spinning or prevent it from happening. (Though on the Heaps rappel, that might mean 40' out of line).

Off to a canyon tomorrow, so no photos tonight.

A very valuable piece of equipment for long rappels is a pair of family-band radios. I went over the edge at Heaps once and realized I was WAY too low on friction. A quick call to the bottom got 10 lbs of pull on the rope, increased to 20 lbs at halfway, up to 30 lbs for the last 50 feet. Without the radio, I'm not sure what would have happened, but I suspect it might not have been purty. :eek2:

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Slot machine, looks like you've got good reason to make sure you're rigged correctly. You make sure you always do it safely so you get to come home to that little boy cause some day he'll grow up and wanna go canyoneering with his Dad.
Darn right he’s a good reason. Nice photo. I’ll share just one more, this is what we put on our Christmas card:

51633

He’s a tough kid. He was 4 months old when we hiked The Wave last August. He didn’t whimper even once even though it was windy and 100 degrees.

Anyway, back to living room canyoneering...

It seems that a Z-rig is a good tool to know about, but is rarely needed or used. I think this photo shows what Matt and Tom are saying about separating the extension from the rope:

51634

Thanks everyone for the info. Tis good to learn from the experience of others.

Bob

[Renatomic808]

Tallest single line rap I done was a 250. I set up my ATS rappel device like I normally would. However I had my device extended for twice the break line and a carabiner on my leg loop on standby for an extra point of friction. Rappelled like I normally would til about halfway. then as I began to feel a little more speed. I just put the rope through my legloop biner. I could take a pic when I got time.

Tallest waterfall I rapped was 600ft... however it was multipitch with sections of 200ft 220ft and 180ft

[trackrunner]

It seems that a Z-rig is a good tool to know about, but is rarely needed or used.

while I've only occasionally needed to complete the z I use the c redirect off the leg loop all the time. occasionally I need to go to the upper binner to complete the z

[deagol]

... I was on a Totem and was spinning a good 60 revolutions per second by the time I touched down and I still don't know how I didn't puke everywhere.
.....

Would it be correct to assume you had the Totem rigged in figure eight mode?

I have been using the Totem for maybe about 2 years now and have just recently discovered using throttle mode with 2 biners instead of one. It does not seem to put any twist in the rope as far as I can tell so far (need to test on larger raps than what I have done with that mode). So, it seems like this issue of rope twist & spin could be avoided.

Using 2 biners for my weight (160-ish) causes it to lock off nicely when free hanging. I pull down on the lever to move down the rope. Need a better location and more time to practice..

[reflection]

Rope, slope and weight of rapper, (rope - size, weight) . Worthy discussion considering how many rookies have slid to their peril in Pine Creek, Behunin, Heaps and Englestead. Rap styles are like religion or politics. How dare one suggest that anothers style is less than (safe) efficient or artful? In recent years some have moved to Pirana, then to Totem and more recently ATS (for most or all raps). On a long drop, some devices will twist the lights out of a rope (already discussed). I've been through Englestead maybe 10 times in the past decade. Last trip, last fall (first rap) I carried (slung below me) two packs down (on a 9mm Imlay rope); ATC XP with two attache biners under the device, half way down, pulled on the attache on the R leg loop (for more friction). Rap was/is very smooth and even, and one can easily stop (if need be) in 3 seconds (that's my rule). If I/we had been on an 8mm line (and were using tubes), I'd stack biners via an extended sling; or swing over to an ATS. Also, firemans belay and signal whistles and radios - beneficial. One other note, some leaders set up light rookies with way too much friction on some long raps. Not efficient and wears folk out. Safety net is the firemans, or a top belay.

[Slot Machine]

Safety net is the firemans, or a top belay.

Ok, so let's say my hypothetical friend Gigantor owns a 300 foot rope, a 200 foot rope and a 100 foot rope. He plans to do a 300 foot rappel with a group. They plan to use the longest rope for the rappel (obviously).

The group agrees that the first person to descend should use a top belay. Gigantor ties the 200ft and 100ft ropes together for the belay. They plan to use an ATC-XP in 'guide mode' for their belay device.

How should Gigantor set up their top belay considering that they have a knot to deal with? Is there a better option than using the ATC-XP in guide mode?

[ratagonia]

Ok, so let's say Gigantor owns a 300 foot rope, a 200 foot rope and a 100 foot rope. He is going to do this hypothetical rappel with a group. They plan to use the 300 foot rope for the rappel (obviously).

The group agrees that the first person to descend should use a top belay. Gigantor ties the 200ft and 100ft ropes together for the belay. They plan to use an ATC-XP in 'guide mode' for their belay device.

How should Gigantor set up their top belay considering that they have a knot to deal with? Is there a better option than using the ATC-XP in guide mode?

Uh, yeah. How about a munter hitch off the anchor, with a large carabiner. Can probably just pass the knot through the carabiner.

Or, can set up a belay device until you get to the knot. Set up a second belay device above the knot, then unclip the carabiner for the first device from the anchor; and let the device w biner stay on the rope just below the knot.

How much does Gigantor weigh? He sounds like he might be "big boned".

Tom

[ndonaldj]

Well, if it's just a belay line, couldn't Gigantor just lock off while they passed the knot? That's just what I would do. There is probably a more clever method out there.

[Iceaxe]

More then one way to skin a cat..... How about a combo rappel and lower using the 200' & 100'. And use the 300' for a top belay.

[ndonaldj]

Are rebelays ever used in canyoneering on big drops like that? In the caving world its pretty rare to see a pit that big without a rebelay or two.

[Deathcricket]

Ok, so let's say Gigantor owns a 300 foot rope, a 200 foot rope and a 100 foot rope. He is going to do this hypothetical rappel with a group. They plan to use the 300 foot rope for the rappel (obviously).

The group agrees that the first person to descend should use a top belay. Gigantor ties the 200ft and 100ft ropes together for the belay. They plan to use an ATC-XP in 'guide mode' for their belay device.

How should Gigantor set up their top belay considering that they have a knot to deal with? Is there a better option than using the ATC-XP in guide mode?

Where is this hypothetical rap going to take place? You wanna drop by my house in Saint George and borrow my Petzyl STOP? I only use it for occasions like this and it is very handy. Once you get your friction dialed in, it's not terribly hard to rap 300 feet though. But I say better safe than sorry. :)

[Slot Machine]

Uh, yeah. How about a munter hitch off the anchor, with a large carabiner. Can probably just pass the knot through the carabiner.

Or, can set up a belay device until you get to the knot. Set up a second belay device above the knot, then unclip the carabiner for the first device from the anchor; and let the device w biner stay on the rope just below the knot.

How much does Gigantor weigh? He sounds like he might be "big boned".

Tom

Uh, yeah I appreciate your replay... even if the solution seems obvious to you. :gents: I did speak with Spidey about taking his advanced course, which was supposed to be last week, but it got cancelled. Until I get a chance to take his course I'll just keep asking questions around here... :mrgreen:

Gigantor weighs A LOT. But don't judge him, only food and canyoneering help with his depression. :nono2: :haha:


Well, if it's just a belay line, couldn't Gigantor just lock off while they passed the knot?

That is what I was wondering, but thought there must be a better way.


More then one way to skin a cat..... How about a combo rappel and lower using the 200' & 100'. And use the 300' for a top belay.

Hmmm... interesting. Don't have to pass ANY knots that way. Smart!

[ratagonia]

Are rebelays ever used in canyoneering on big drops like that? In the caving world its pretty rare to see a pit that big without a rebelay or two.

Re-belays are known, and used in Europe, but not used much in Colorado Plateau canyons. In canyoneering, I think of them being used mostly to avoid hefty waterfalls.

Tom :moses:

[ndonaldj]

I guess with bolting ethics, and the nature of rappels in canyons a re-belay wouldn't be as appropriate an option as in caves. That was a little off topic, I apologize.

[reflection]

Hypotheticals: A sign of spring I suppose. Experience, perspective and practice style seem to dictate opinions and views. Over a decade ago I was with three others, they three were all rocket scientists (honest); brilliant chaps. For weeks they had been plotting and planning a 300 ft plus drop. We finally got to the spot and walla, emotion and intesity took hold and logic and reason flew out the window (somewhat). Rocket scientist one, looked down the abyss/alley and backed off stating, I'm not going first. And then the next two said the same. That was a long time ago.

In normal circumstances, an experienced party goes first, provides the firemans for the rest and the other experienced person goes last, assiting others with set up.

If with an inexperienced bunch (and just one leader), with a 300, 200 & 100; I'd lower the first on the 300, and have the others rap on the 300 and use the other ropes as a pull line.

This past fall, I was with a group, 3 brand new rookies. They got to the 300 ft drop (they functionally knew what they were to do), except that they were pysched out and scared and by the time they were on the rope,and down the line, they emotionally and physically didn't relax until off the line. One fellow, on a firemans was lowered a ways (by the firemans) so he could rest his arms and hands. It was a big reminder to me, keep the radar on every person. And adapt quickly if needed (lower a very nervous person if needed) and if ropes or situation adapts, keep whatever simple for the inexperienced. A large biner (most often) works to pass a knot on a belay, but in practice I've seen a strand bind up on a munter when it came through. My rocket scientist friends could have/would have configured 3-4 or more operative ways to use the 300,200,100 (on a belay); but then in action they may (like they often did) change their course when the time came to act. Myself, I could use a refresher from TJ or maybe RC re other quick, easy safe options when the belayer is "passing a knot". (I can do it, but I'd like to see others in action, that are likely more artful)

[Jaxx]

I'm a little late to the party but I have used an ATC with two carabiners so it creates a couple tighter turns for the rope to go around and pinch in between the ATC and biners. This is what I use on free hanging and/or long raps.

[Moose Droppings]

Frictioning / Autoblocking might be good tool to add to your bag of tricks. At least for the first one on descent, permitting that person to free both hands so as to shake out the physical (& mental) pump, clear tangles, pass knots, escape and ascend if necessary, etc... Also could be useful for the newbie/inexperienced in the situation presented by reflection (post #34).

past discussion on the topic:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?33195-autoblock-self-belay&p=343903&viewfull=1#post343903 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?33195-autoblock-self-belay&p=343903&viewfull=1#post343903)






http://www.bogley.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by trackrunner
This about covers how to tie most of the firction knots

http://www.chockstone.org/techtips/Prusik.htm (http://www.chockstone.org/techtips/Prusik.htm)

http://www.animatedknots.com/klemheist/index.php (http://www.animatedknots.com/klemheist/index.php)

It's a helpful tool but should only be used on certain situations. Not something to play with just because it's cool. Not wise to use rappeling in a waterfall or swift water disconects. After the first person is down usually everone else can be fireman belayed. Another way to stop on rappel is the leg wrap.

Discussion on the autoblock knots and application to canyoneering. Note I'm not trying to drive traffic to another forum. Just thought it was a good discussion to answer Felica's questions.

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93 (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93)


Um, well, maybe not. Rich is very anti-autobloc, and those knot-tying sites do not discuss the subtleties such as:

1. Absolutely, not for use in waterfalls or moving water. Also, it will not "always" grab - if you flip upside down, it will reach to your rappel device and not grip. It is not a 100% foolproof technique (but it is pretty good).

2. A good tool to know, and use selectively. In order to continue "knowing" it, you will have to practice it.

3. The AutoBloc knot is very much preferred. Other knots (Kleimheist, prusik) once loaded are very, very difficult to release.

4. The SETUP is very important. The LENGTH is very important. The Autobloc must be short enough to NOT reach up to your rappel device. If it hits your rappel device, the device will "tend" the autobloc, or will get stuck in the rappel device.

5. The wraps will vary with your rope parameters. Each change in parameters will change how it performs. Size of rope, number of ropes, the wetness of the rope, the roughness of the rope, etc. Everything makes a difference.

6. It works well when the ropes don't change. Guiding, we always use canyon pro, and our autoblocs are a pretied length. We use three wraps on a single strand, and four wraps on a double strand. On a regular trip, using several different ropes, it will work on some, and not on others.

7. The SETUP: clip a carabiner to your leg loop, dominant side. clip the loop into the carabiner. Wrap the autobloc around the rope three or four times, and clip the end bight back into the same carabiner.

8. Is it right? - the length needs to be such that the knot grabs the rope if you let go of everything. Add more wraps? Can. It needs to be loose enough to not grab so much as to be difficult. It needs to be short enough that it does not reach to the belay device.

9. Modify the Setup: for many people, it will work better to extend your belay device a few inches, to keep it further from the autobloc. This is critical for children, youths and small women (small canyoneers). Usually helpful for men with a substantial pony keg (ie, table muscles, aka fat gut).

10. While rappeling: for the autobloc to grab, it must move up the rope to an upper position. In order to "go", the autobloc must be held down a few inches so that it does not grab. It is better to hold it in a fixed position and let the rope slide through it; than to let it grab, then release it, grab/release, grab/release. Each time it grabs, it tends to grab tighter, and be harder to release. The "other hand" is the brake hand, controlling the flow of the rope, and can be either above or below the autobloc. I often start using my right hand on the autobloc, and then switch to the right hand below and the left hand on the autobloc once I get going.

11. Some other tricks: CAN squeeze the rope through the autobloc, to gain a little more friction. CAN angle the rope through the autoblock to vary the amount of friction.

12. Autoblocs can be made from 6mm cord, tied in a loop. Tie the ends using a double fishermans with very short tails, tighten well, then toss in the laundry for a couple cycles. They tend to be slick and not very grabby to start. Once they fuzz up they work well. After repeated dunkings and dryings, they get shorter, which makes them grabbier. For 6mm cord, a good cut length is: (Tom to go find and fill in later).

13. At ZAC, we are now using sewn ones made by Sterling called Hollowblocs. I plan on carrying these in my store in the spring.

I'll try to write this up with pictures ... (don't hold your breath).

Tom

[hank moon]

Frictioning / Autoblocking might be good tool to add to your bag of tricks. At least for the first one on descent, permitting that person to free both hands so as to shake out the physical (& mental) pump, clear tangles, pass knots, escape and ascend if necessary, etc... Also could be useful for the newbie/inexperienced in the situation presented by reflection (post #34).


Hi Moose

Could you explain what you mean by "Frictioning / AUtoblocking" as I'm not familiar with this term. Ok, mainly I'm not familiar with "Frictioning" - especially as a technique that allows both hands free.

[Moose Droppings]

Hi Moose

Could you explain what you mean by "Frictioning / AUtoblocking" as I'm not familiar with this term. Ok, mainly I'm not familiar with "Frictioning" - especially as a technique that allows both hands free.

i'm quite positive that "frictioning" is not a word in the english language, however a couple of Europeans that i occasionally climb with (one being a UIAGM/IFGMA certified guide) use a pigeon term from their native tongue that roughly translates to "frictioning" in english...

the idea behind "frictioning", at least how i understood/witnessed it, is that the friction knot of choice can be finessed with the brake-hand to control and/or vary the speed of descent. the varied speed is important when passing overhangs and undercuts.

and in the event that you let go of the friction knot with your brake-hand, the knot will slide up the rope, cinch, and lock up. then you are free to move both hands about.

i've found the system to work with double ropes, mis-matched doubles, as well as single 8mm rope.

the best illustration and basically the system i ascribe to while mainly descending muplti-pitched rock/ice/alpine with occasional use while canyoneering can be found on the petzl site.

http://www.petzl.com/files/fckfiles/image/news/sport/roctrip/millau/2009/rappel_01.gif

http://www.petzl.com/files/fckfiles/image/news/sport/roctrip/millau/2009/rappel_03.gif

see the ratagonia quote i referenced above covering the finer points of using an autoblock system.

[Slot Machine]

So... here is how I set up my first 300 footer. After practicing with a wide variety of setups I eventually decided on this one.

52665

Two biners with an ATC provided a good amount of friction at the top of the rappel and wasn't herky-jerky. Extending the rappel device allowed me to hold the brake like with my left hand comfortably while competing the Z-Rig. We used an 8mm Imlay Rope, while very fast, it was perfect for a 300 foot rappel.

I completed the Z-Rig about 100 feet from the bottom. It worked great!

We employed a top belay for everyone but me (I was last), and had excellent communication and assistance from the fireman belay at the bottom.

The Bogley T-shirt helped with my self-confidence because I looked really cool on rappel. Looking cool is half the battle when it comes to canyoneering. :haha:

Thanks everyone for the good advice!

[PG Rob]

Congratulations are in order.............. for your 300 footer and for looking cool!!

[Iceaxe]

The Bogley T-shirt helped with my self-confidence because I looked really cool on rappel.

:2thumbs:

[Kishkumen]

Last time down Heaps I uses a gri gri and it worked great. Straight down and very controlled. I had an older version of the gri gri so i added a prusic for safety.

[Slot Machine]

Last time down Heaps I uses a gri gri and it worked great. Straight down and very controlled. I had an older version of the gri gri so i added a prusic for safety.

Interesting... I've read several threads on climbing forums that claim a gri gri will glaze your rope on a long rappel because it gets so hot. Did your gri gri do anything to your rope on the long rap out of Heaps?

Bob

[Kishkumen]

No, it was fine...I went down slow and it didn't seem to get nearly as hot as my Pirana does. Another guy went down before me and used a Gri Gri as well. It was a 9mm static rope. I think I would only use a Gri Gri on a free repel though.

[DiscGo]

I have been going back through old posts to read more input on different experiences relating to Canyoneering / Rappelling. I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed this thread, and I think @Slot Machine (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?20293-Slot-Machine)'s profile picture is fantastic!

[Slot Machine]

I have been going back through old posts to read more input on different experiences relating to Canyoneering / Rappelling. I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed this thread, and I think @Slot Machine (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?20293-Slot-Machine)'s profile picture is fantastic!

I also had a heck of a good time learning from this thread. :nod:

Thanks for the kind words DiscGo!! :2thumbs: :gents:

[peakbaggers]

My wife & I weigh in around 130 - 140 lbs. (just to be clear, she's the lighter one) and carry packs about 15 - 20 lbs. If we use a piranha on a 300 ft rap with a biner on the leg loop for extra friction and the piranha set at maximum friction, do you think that would work & be safe? Would plan on an autoblock as well. Assume a single strand 9 mm rope & the rappel never goes quite free. What about rope twist? Opinions anyone? Tom - I know you seem to use piranha's a lot or did.

[Iceaxe]

With the setup mentioned above you will have wwwaaaayyyyy too much friction.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Slot Machine]

My wife & I weigh in around 130 - 140 lbs. (just to be clear, she's the lighter one) and carry packs about 15 - 20 lbs. If we use a piranha on a 300 ft rap with a biner on the leg loop for extra friction and the piranha set at maximum friction, do you think that would work & be safe? Would plan on an autoblock as well. Assume a single strand 9 mm rope & the rappel never goes quite free. What about rope twist? Opinions anyone? Tom - I know you seem to use piranha's a lot or did.

Ya, what Ice said.

At the top of a 300 footer the weight of the rope acts like a fireman belay. The rope won't simply feed through your device when you weight the rope. You will have to force feed the rope through your device for the first 50 feet or so. Having minimal friction at the top will make the process less exhausting.

There are 3 friction settings on a Piranha, lets call them 0, 1 and 2. 0 being the lowest.

At the top of a 300 footer, with a 9 mil rope, you will want to use a 0 setting. I've found the 0 setting to be adequate on most rappels that are not free hanging. (I weigh 170 lbs.) If you are really nervous about it, use a 1 setting, it will be a lot more work, but that is the only downside.

On rappel you will get down about 150 feet and notice your friction decreasing considerably. Clip into your leg loop. Go a little further. Complete the z-rig.

Don't use an autoblock. This is not like me telling you that a helmet is optional. Completing a z-rig looks easy on paper, but when you are on the rope it takes some effort. No need to make the process more complex with an autoblock.

I don't think rope twistage is a big deal unless you are free hanging.

Also, if you practice all this stuff before you go, it makes things so much easier mentally on "game day".

Be safe, good luck! :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I don't think rope twistage is a big deal unless you are free hanging.

Actually it's just the opposite.... rope twisting is not a big deal if the rappel is free hanging because you can set the rope so it is 12" off the ground and the rope will un-twist its self.

On non-free hanging rappels, particularly 300' rappels, rope twist can become a big issue. Especially if several folks on 8's follow one anther and poor rope management skills are use.

YMMV :cool2:

[Slot Machine]

Actually it's just the opposite.... rope twisting is not a big deal if the rappel is free hanging because you can set the rope so it is 12" off the ground and the rope will un-twist its self.

On non-free hanging rappels, particularly 300' rappels, rope twist can become a big issue. Especially if several folks on 8's follow one anther and poor rope management skills are use.

YMMV :cool2:

Doesn't the rope twist above you as well, creating a not-so-fun spinning rappel on the way down? This is the "big deal" I was referring to.

Everything else you said make sense. :nod:

[peakbaggers]

With the setup mentioned above you will have wwwaaaayyyyy too much friction.

Sent using Tapatalk

Good to know, Shane. Guess I'd rather have wwwaaayyy too much friction than wwwaaayyy too little. Might end up a little squashed with too little! I think Slot has added some good advice. Been debating whether to use ATC or Piranha. I'm comfortable with either but wife likes the Piranha so think it's best to let her use what she's most familiar with on something like Englestead.

[Iceaxe]

The big problem with to much friction is it really wears you out fast feeding rope. I also think its really dangerous because you pay to much attention to feeding rope and not enough attention to using a correct brake hand position. In fact to much friction makes using a proper brake hand all but impossible.

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[moab mark]

The big problem with to much friction is it really wears you out fast feeding rope. I also think its really dangerous because you pay to much attention to feeding rope and not enough attention to using a correct brake hand position. In fact to much friction makes using a proper brake hand all but impossible.

Sent using Tapatalk

x2 there is nothing worse then just going over the edge on a big rappel and not being able to move. When you are inching along and bouncing each time you pull up some rope is not a fun experience. On a Pirana using both hooks at your weight will be a long rappel. My wife weighs about 125lbs and she uses one hook on the Englestead rappel and seems to do fine. (8.3 rope) Little slow at top sometimes ask for a belay at bottom. I set my kids in Canyon Mode, if they need a little help I slow them down at the bottom. If you have an experienced fireman belayer set yourself up light and let them help you at the bottom. If you are the first one down I would reccomend one hook with the rope already in your leg biner. Towards the bottom either redirect thru a biner in the main Pirana hole or put the rope over the hook at the top. WARNING when using the top hook make sure you baby sit the rope on the hook like your life depends on it. It has a tendency to jump off the hook and then the excitement will begin. My preference is when using the hook I switch to left hand to change the direction over the hook. doesn't want to jump off as easy. Twisting is a problem if the end is touching the ground. Reset the rope after first guy down so it is about 2 ft off the ground. YMMV. One more item I always wear gloves. Some feel this masked how much friction you really need but when it hits the fan I want some leather between my nice soft skin and that skin eating rope.

Mark

[peakbaggers]

Again - great advice everyone. Much appreciated. And Shane, I do agree about the too much friction - can be a real pain so the conclusion is don't use the piranha on maximum setting. Mark's info about what setting he uses for his wife is helpful. Looking forward to this trip.

[mfshop]

I have a question. Given the same setup/rope, is there any difference in the amount of friction needed at the bottom of a 300' rappel vs a 200' or 100' rappel? The only difference I see is the additional heat generated on a longer rappel, but does that result in a noticeable difference in friction also?

I understand people want more friction on long rappels, but as noted, it often results in too much friction at the top, & people using setups they're not normally accustomed to using.

[2065toyota]

A little bit of living room and garage hook rappelling practice with changing your friction settings is priceless once you really need to do it in a canyon. I have hooks all over my garage ceiling that we practice new and different techniques on.

[mfshop]

A little bit of living room and garage hook rappelling practice with changing your friction settings is priceless once you really need to do it in a canyon. I have hooks all over my garage ceiling that we practice new and different techniques on.

Cool idea. You have a 300' tall garage by any chance:mrgreen:? I'll be right over to practice.

[hank moon]

I have a question. Given the same setup/rope, is there any difference in the amount of friction needed at the bottom of a 300' rappel vs a 200' or 100' rappel? The only difference I see is the additional heat generated on a longer rappel, but does that result in a noticeable difference in friction also?

I understand people want more friction on long rappels, but as noted, it often results in too much friction at the top, & people using setups they're not normally accustomed to using.


To comfortably do a long rappel, variable friction is needed. Less at the top, add more as you go down. You can simulate a long rap on a short one by (for example) suspending a water bladder on the end of the rope and letting it drain as you descend.

To answer your question above, you generally want more friction at the bottom of a 300' (vs. a 100') rappel because longer raps take more time and so the brake hand(s) are more fatigued, nearing the end.

[2065toyota]

Cool idea. You have a 300' tall garage by any chance:mrgreen:? I'll be right over to practice.

Not really considered practice if it's 300' tall

[ratagonia]

To comfortably do a long rappel, variable friction is needed. Less at the top, add more as you go down. You can simulate a long rap on a short one by (for example) suspending a water bladder on the end of the rope and letting it drain as you descend.

To answer your question above, you generally want more friction at the bottom of a 300' (vs. a 100') rappel because longer raps take more time and so the brake hand(s) are more fatigued, nearing the end.

Practice practice practice... but how do you practice the conditions of a 300' rappel?

(this method required a 'ground person' in addition to the rappeller)

Take your 300' rope and set up a rappel, of moderate length (say 60'). Then suspend the 'rope on the ground' (say, 240') in a bag on the end of the rope, so it is hanging off the ground and weighting the rope. Even BETTER, have half the remaining rope (120') in one bag and the other half in another (yes, I like to make things complicated), both suspended on the end of the rope.

Phase 1: Rappeller start your rappel. Rappel smoothly the first 1/3 of the rappel (say 20')... the point here is to figure out the friction setting that will work well for the first segment of the rappel - and it might take several tries to figure it out. Perhaps rappelling to the ground until the correct setting is found. For my 190 lbs plus pack, a Pirana on one horn seems to work for a Canyonero 9.2 rope and the Canyon Fire 8.3mm rope.

Phase 2: Rappeller starts rappel with optimal setting for starting the rappel, and raps 20'. Ground person then removes half the suspended weight, and the rappeller makes an adjustment to compensate for the reduced rope-weight. I go with clipping into a large carabiner on my left leg loop (I am right handed), so the rope then crosses my lap. With the rope this way, I can swivel my hips to control the friction - at first, I usually swivel right for less friction, but as it runs smoothly I work my way back to normal sitting position. - for the next third...

Phase 3: For the last part of the rappel, all the 'suspended rope-weight' is dropped to the ground, and the rappeller makes an adjustment for the final part of the rappel. On my Pirana, I clip a thin carabiner into the big eye of the Pirana and clip the rope from the left leg loop into it, making a z-rig. This tends to be very smooth for the last bit.

In the actual situation, the transition between phases will not be that uniform, of course. But it is good to have these two transitions, these two tools available AND, it is important to practice MAKING THE MOVES under combat conditions, as they are not as easy as it sounds.

Is this deliberate and methodical? You bet. Kinda OCD? Yessir! Have I actually done this as a training... well... over the course of many years, all these actions and many others were executed by my friends and I - and this is a distillation of the parts of that extended process that actually worked. So if you want to be well-prepared for this event - try to do something somewhat related to what I suggest.

Or you can just wing it...

Tom :moses: