Rap accident in Rubio Canyon; 60' fall

[dougr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T4FT2SHFLo

On Thalehaha Falls in Rubio Canyon, Altadena, CA, my buddy rigged his autoblock incorrectly. When he slipped on the mossy face, he sadly instinctively let go of the brake line. He fell 60'. It was miraculous that he walked away with nothing but deep bruises. Credit the shallow pool, slight slope of the face, landing on his butt, and the redirection the autoblock created which contributed some friction.

I actually haven't rappelled first in ages, always the leader now and checking others' rigging. But he wanted me to get pics and video of his coming down. He has done about 25 rappels total in his canyoneering career, including the 100/120' Leontine falls in the same canyon. I was concerned, I cautioned him, but he insisted. So I went down.

His mistake, as verified by still from the video, was that he didn't clip his autoblock 'biner into the leg loop. Rather it was above the leg loop. Of course it slid up and couldn't cinch the brake line.

In hindsight, a fireman's belay would have prevented this. Such is the risk of a 2 man descent and the desire to get video/pics. I don't know if I should have insisted on going last, or forgone the pics and done a fireman's belay, or done like I did and granted that a canyoneer is responsible for themselves at some point in their career.

Thankfully his ego is the most bruised of all.

Edit:

Below is the moment of head impact, complete with spark off the rock from one of the helmet's rear rivets.
520105201152008

Below is the autoblock rigging, where we see the 'biner (C) clipped not at the block's girth (A) but beyond the leg loop buckle (B).
52009

[spinesnaper]

:eek3::shock2: Thanks for sharing this video. I think it contributes something to the whole autoblock vs no autoblock debate. The excited utterances in the video are completely excusable. Thank goodness your friend is ok. Wow. As Tom says: Don't F-up. But it happens and we all need to learn from these situations.

Ken

[ghawk]

:eek2:

[oldno7]

Glad he's o.k.

Nothing is more slippery than San Gabriel Granite.

Lots of mistakes here

[Deathcricket]

Thanks for sharing this video! It's a good reminder to all of us that little unexpected things can always happen. I am really glad your friend is ok! I'm still shocked he let go of that rope hehe. And now that we know he's ok, I really enjoyed the slo-mo Shiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!!.......... portions. :lol8::lol8::lol8:

[canyoncaver]

Wow. Thanks for sharing so that we may all learn from it.

Obviously, as you stated he shouldn't have let go of the brake line, autoblock or no. But after he did, I would like to point out that your buddy's leather gloves likely saved him from serious injury. No gloves or even rubber gloves and he might have had to let go when his hands started burning. His "glove rappel" slowed him down more than "no rappel."

The vocal anti-helmet crowd would do well to study this one as well.

Thanks again and glad it all worked out.

[Audilard]

Wow is right. That's a spooky fall. Very glad he is okay.

[Brian in SLC]

Wow...

Uhh, his mistake had nothing to do with how he rigged his autoblock, IMHO. In flow, my bet is most folks don't use an autoblock. In high flow, stuck in a waterfall, or, in a pool, an autoblock can be bad.

He let go. Ugh. Maybe use two hands? Maybe use both strands for additional friction and control? Maybe rig for more friction?

His brake hand position is maybe a bit off? I take the brake strand in my hand down below and around my hip, not that close to my rap device.

Could also rig the rappel device on a sling above the harness, which, puts it in a spot that is easier to control.

Back to the autoblock, which, maybe shouldn't be used in flow, biners on the leg loop for an autoblock, where the rap device is directly off the belay loop, are notoriously unreliable. You need to get more space between them!

An autoblock is a really poor back up for bad technique. They don't always work, and, they require a fair amount of skill and experience to rig them properly. And, you only find out they don't work when you screw up. Didn't look like the autoblock contributed anything to his slowing down at all.

If your friend's instinct is to let go of the rope with any slip on a rappel...then...ugh...maybe a top belay and not a fireman's would be more appropriate.

Single rope, pack on back, slick rock...

Relying on gloves to make up for poor technique and skill and too little friction...never a good idear. Maybe a bunch of rappels without them would help gain some insight into rigging properly? If you "need" them, then, you're not doing it right.

Scary.

[Iceaxe]

^^^ THIS ^^^

[canyoncaver]

Just to clarify my post, I am not advocating "relying" on leather gloves. Just that they were a helpful contingency in this situation. Much more helpful than the autoblock.

Maintaining control of the brake line is the real solution. I find that reaching over with the left hand for two hands on the brake line works really well on skinny fast rope.

[PG Rob]

C R A Z Y........ L U C K Y ! ! ! !

[Sombeech]

Yikes!

[Slot Machine]

:shock2: Wow, I thought people only stood up from falls like that in movies and video games. I'm really glad he is ok.

After cleaning out my shorts and watching the video again, the slowed down profanity is really funny. I thought DC was evil for just a second-

I'm going to change my phone's incoming text sound to "Shiiiiiiiiii" right now. :lol8:

Really, that was scary and your video is a great chance for everyone to learn. Serious question, why not use both strands on that rappel?

Thanks for sharing,

Bob

[Brian in SLC]

Just to clarify my post, I am not advocating "relying" on leather gloves. Just that they were a helpful contingency in this situation. Much more helpful than the autoblock.

I dunno. Maybe this is a case where gloves actually contributed to the near miss?

I like the tactile feel of the rope in my hand. Mentally, it help reinforces that my life is literally in my hands. When you have a glove on, you're one step away from that. And, I wonder if its easier to forget, in an instant, what's in your hand.

Gloved hand above the rap device...one below and right under the belay loop...easy on a slip to reach out for balance with that brake hand. The brake hand is right there, in play, to provide balance for a slip. And maybe the quick thought that a gloved hand above might be adequate for a catch? Dunno. Got to get that brake hand out of play which is why I like mine well below and around the back of my hip, almost behind me. I get additional friction if need be, and, its just not that available for balance should I slip. And, we all slip on slick, mossy rock.

Using both hands below as brakes and relying on balance and footwork might help, too, but, I do like a hand free to guide me on especially a slick, lower angle rappel.

Also, really appreciate folks sharing videos like this. The arm chair quarterbacking and criticism can be withering, but, it does provide good learning banter for everyone to enjoy.

Thanks!

[dougr]

re: helmet. What on Earth is the argument against? I've seen a friend nearly get killed by falling rock when he wasn't wearing one. Not to mention merely slipping/tripping while scrambling in a canyon. Not to mention hitting your head like in this video.

re: double line. Two reasons. 1, I always rig a contingency anchor when leading. It was for me, in this case, as he knows how to release and lower. 2, I wanted the option to ascend and be able to get all the way to the top if needed. Combined with his desire to go single line, we were both happy with the setup.

re: autoblock. I hear you about flow and would not use one in substantive flow myself. Although this flow was minor.

re: pack. I'm a proponent of keeping minor packs on as cushion for accidents. My heavy lead pack is a different story.

Note on my reaction: laughing is my nervous coping mechanism for stress. I'm notorious for it and I've had people get mad at me over the years about it. But we both were overcome in the hour it took to finish the canyon. Matt had a good cry in the car driving home and I was really shaken up that night at home.

[skiclimb3287]

Glad he is OK! Definitely a scary situation.



He let go. Ugh. Maybe use two hands?

This is the funny thing about autoblocks, isn't it? When rappelling, you should never let go with your brake hand, but when you have an autoblock rigged below the rap device (well always), you need to let go of the autoblock to allow it to engage. If you are not using two hands (which I find downright awkward in this type of setup), then you need to consciously make the decision to let go of the rope. For this reason, I am not a fan of autoblocks, it goes against good habit.

YMMV :ne_nau:

[dougr]

He let go. Ugh. Maybe use two hands?

He had been talking to me that day about how he had transitioned to two hands on the brake line since we last went together in August. But obviously he didn't here.

The mentality that life hinges on that brake line has to be so deeply ingrained!

[Deathcricket]

re: helmet. What on Earth is the argument against? I've seen a friend nearly get killed by falling rock when he wasn't wearing one. Not to mention merely slipping/tripping while scrambling in a canyon. Not to mention hitting your head like in this video.

There isn't an argument against helmets per se, there is an argument about jumping all over noobs and criticizing them to the point where they don't feel welcome to post because they didn't wear a helmet their first few times out, or didn't wear one for whatever reason. Everyone agrees helmets are a GOOD thing. But being hostile towards others who choose not to wear one is what the argument is about, trying to be welcoming to everyone, etc. Similar to not wearing one on a motorcycle IMO. In this case it clearly saved your buddies life IMO.

re: Your reaction. I think mine would be exactly the same. I don't think the laughing and nervousness makes light of the situation at all. I think had I been in your shoes my reaction would be exactly the same.

Once again, thanks for sharing. Brian is totally right. It's hard to take critiques from armchair quarterbacks, but this is an awesome experience for us all to learn from and hopefully prevent another occurrence. And it's an amazing video to watch. I've watched it like 5 times and put it on my facebook page, hehe.

[dougr]

There isn't an argument against helmets per se, there is an argument about jumping all over noobs

I see, I didn't know that dynamic existed. Funny too, we saw a group of two descending that day. A guy taking a new-ish girlfriend down on her first ever descent. He was loaded with top notch ICG pack, ICG rope silo, good assorted gear, technora rope, Ecrin helmet, had done Imlay, Mystery, Spry, Death Valley cyns, etc.... but she wasn't wearing a helmet. I was shocked.


In this case it clearly saved your buddies life IMO. You know I didn't think much about the helmet at that moment as it didn't seem determinative. But when I got home and edited the video, wow. He clearly whacked the back of his head hard on the way down. It may very well have saved him.

[Deathcricket]

He could have been like this only reversed :lol8:

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhf7g5nbF3yYOg449v

[mtndude3737]

We always do the "fireman's belay". If the guy at the bottom simply weights the rope, he can help control the speed of the falling rappeller. Autoblocks get in the way and also prevent good technique. Try it some time. I was on a 10mm dynamic rope, 190lbs + 60 lbs of gear, free hanging, and my buddy was able to stop me cold. If you wanna film the action, get a GoPro helmet cam and get your hands on the rope.

[deagol]

Wow, thanks for posting. It looks like the slope of the rap below where he let go may also have helped save him ?? Very scary..

I did Bailey Canyon in the San Gabriels this December and slipped on the slick, algae covered granite on one of the raps (the slip was only my feet, not slipping on the rope). I do not use an autoblock, but have it ingrained to never let go of the brake-strand rope. This slip was the first real test of that instinct. I actualy think I have GOPRO video of my slip. Not very exciting to watch and much closer to the bottom than this one.

[dougr]

get a GoPro helmet cam and get your hands on the rope.

The answer for me going forward lies here. Mount the cam on a mini-tripod and do a fireman's.

[ilipichicuma]

We'll take pictures and video while doing a fireman's belay a lot of the time. Sure, the angle in the pictures and video isn't as good and you end up with a bunch of butt shots, but when it comes down to it, I'll take a few butt shots over having my butt slam onto the ground. Scary video! I'm glad he's alright!

[reflection]

A wing and a prayer; maybe a bell rang and an angel got it's wings? Others in the same circumstance may have died or been seriously injured.

All the comment about putting both hands below the device and holding the rope? Reminds me of days of old when I/we didn't know better.

Even with skinny 8mm ropes there are many options to increase and measure out safe efficient friction. If a tube device, two biners below the device and the rope through a biner on the right leg (if that is the rope side), rope can be twisted around the biner for more friction; or run a munter hitch (twists the rope) or extend via a sling a device (tube) the rope goes through, and then run it through a second device attached to harness. Offers a very smooth ride. OR, learn to use a pirana and all it's options or a new Sterling ATS wrap device and its options.

Auto blocks in running water, I'd so NO. And careful with them otherwise. Letting go of the rope? Maybe some folk should not be into canyoneering, OR should be watched closely/always (some enjoy the overall activity but not rapping). If only two of you and you want a firemans and photos? Wrap the tailing rope around your waste and hold with your left hand, shoot with your right hand, at the sign of any problem, back up quickly and the rapper should stop, after that, drop the camera, grab rope with both hands and lower the person if need be.

Gloves? We humans are not all alike. Some have cold hands, formerly broken fingers and nicked up digits. Some advocate no gloves; myself, I usually like at least a garden variety/plastic/cotton glove; use a hand to push or bounch off walls and keeps grit off hands. In the training room or training wall though, I agree, folk should dial up with NO gloves and learn the nuance of friction with tubes and other devices.

I imagine the tone of this thread would be different if the fellow was lights out after the fall. Lucky, a gift or intervention by a force?....whatever, it was not his time. The two of you should practice on both single and double strands, before you go out again - that's what I'd say to my brother, best friend or to myself in the mirror.

[Don]

I was thinking [I]D

[Slot Machine]

Re: double line. Two reasons. 1, I always rig a contingency anchor when leading. It was for me, in this case, as he knows how to release and lower. 2, I wanted the option to ascend and be able to get all the way to the top if needed. Combined with his desire to go single line, we were both happy with the setup.

DSR,

Just a couple of questions, not mean spirited in any way:

Is there a reason one might need to ascend that particular waterfall?

If Matt had it to do over, would he have untied the contingancy and rapped both lines?

If I sound a little clueless- I've never rapped off a waterfall, and am unfamiliar with the canyon you were in. I'm just trying to learn, not rub salt in any wound.

Bob

[spinesnaper]

DSR,

Just a couple of questions, not mean spirited in any way:

Is there a reason one might need to ascend that particular waterfall?

If Matt had it to do over, would he have untied the contingancy and rapped both lines?

If I sound a little clueless- I've never rapped off a waterfall, and am unfamiliar with the canyon you were in. I'm just trying to learn, not rub salt in any wound.

Bob

Bob

Going down the water way is how we roll in SoCal canyons. They were doing the canyon which is in the water course. It's a low flow class C canyon. Not so different than going down Boundry in Zion with water flow. They are doing single strand because that is how the big boys do it (versus toss n' go). I suspect they felt sufficiently confident that neither suspected that this accident might transpire.

It is interesting in looking at the video is slow motion. The rappeller is out of balance with his torso leaning into the fall line. This reduces the pressure being applied through the feet which are not being maintained perpendicular to the rock face. As he slips he removes his brake hand from the rope to reach out and absorb the immediate impact of hitting the rock. As he begins to accelerate he reaches up and grabs the rope above the rappel devise. His hands are gloved. This maneuver undoubtedly slowed his descent. About half way down he bounces in the water course and impacts the back wall in the open book but this impact is absorbed by his backpack. Immediately after this his head also impacts the open book wall behind him but this blow is cushioned by his helmet. He survives a potentially fatal fall as a result of this. Of course it would have been better to have maintained better posture at the top of the rappel to maintain more force to the soles of his boots, to absorbed a potential hip pointer from the small slip on the rope as opposed to taking the braking hand off the rope, and finally, as pointed out a fireman's belay would also have been beneficial here. I know there are other points to be learned here.

All in all, it is amazing that there are no injuries and amazing that there is video of this accident to facilitate its analysis.:phew:

Ken

[Slot Machine]

Bob

Going down the water way is how we roll in SoCal canyons. They were doing the canyon which is in the water course. It's a low flow class C canyon. Not so different than going down Boundry in Zion with water flow.

Ken

Ken,

Huh? I appreciate how you roll and all, but I'm asking about going back UP the water way. Why would he want/need to go back up the face of that particular falls?

Bob

[spinesnaper]

Ken,

Huh? I appreciate how you roll and all, but I'm asking about going back UP the water way. Why would he want/need to go back up the face of that particular falls?

Bob

I was not aware that they need to reascend this water fall. Generally one exits Rubio canyon below the last set of falls to a trail-an old tramway I believe. Are you asking why they are descending a blocked rope?

Ken

[Slot Machine]

I was not aware that they need to reascend this water fall. Generally one exits Rubio canyon below the last set of falls to a trail-an old tramway I believe. Are you asking why they are descending a blocked rope?

Ken

Ken,

I replied before you were finished with post #28 above. The rest of your post ties your thought together. I understand that he blocked it to give himself the option to ascend the falls if needed. My question is - is there something special about Rubio that would warrant such a precaution? If I went down that waterfall, man I wouldn't want to go back up that thing...

Bob

[dougr]

Correct, there is no need to ascend any drop in Rubio. But I wanted the option in case he got stuck on rappel (twin 50kn anchors on this drop). It was a remote possibility, but it's also why I rig a contingency always. Hence the single line rap in this case, which was accepted since he preferred it as well. But obviously the greater risk was in not having a fireman's belay and that was my mistake.

As an aside, I had done the previous 100/120' Leontine falls double line since I was concerned about the pull and was LAMAR. Thalehaha here has a clean pull.

btw... no offense to anything posted. I hope it's clear from the mere fact that I posted this that I am open to learn anything and everything from those more seasoned than I. When _life_ is literally on the line, there's no room to take offense.

[spinesnaper]

Ken,

I replied before you were finished with post #28 above. The rest of your post ties your thought together. I understand that he blocked it to give himself the option to ascend the falls if needed. My question is - is there something special about Rubio that would warrant such a precaution? If I went down that waterfall, man I wouldn't want to go back up that thing...

Bob

Bob

I do not know dsr70 or his partner. However, ATS canyoneering school does a lot of training of Southern California canyoneers. They are technically rigorous and emphasize single strand rappelling and it is common to see that here. Yes, the option of reascending is definitely one advantage of single strand but so is the ability to correctly set the rap length for a C canyon so one does not have to disconnect while floating. More senior canyoneers can probably weigh in on the merits of single strand vs double strand better than I can.

Ken

[Slot Machine]

Correct, there is no need to ascend any drop in Rubio. But I wanted the option in case he got stuck on rappel (twin 50kn anchors on this drop). It was a remote possibility, but it's also why I rig a contingency always. Hence the single line rap in this case, which was accepted since he preferred it as well. But obviously the greater risk was in not having a fireman's belay and that was my mistake.

As an aside, I had done the previous 100/120' Leontine falls double line since I was concerned about the pull and was LAMAR. Thalehaha here has a clean pull.

btw... no offense to anything posted. I hope it's clear from the mere fact that I posted this that I am open to learn anything and everything from those more seasoned than I. When _life_ is literally on the line, there's no room to take offense.

Thanks for the explanation.

Not everyone is so open to discussing mistakes and I appreciate the "no room to take offense approach". :2thumbs:

I've learned a few important things from your video. Thanks for sharing.

Bob

[trackrunner]

[QUOTE=Don;488496]I was thinking [I]D

[trackrunner]

Wow...

Uhh, his mistake had nothing to do with how he rigged his autoblock, IMHO. In flow, my bet is most folks don't use an autoblock. In high flow, stuck in a waterfall, or, in a pool, an autoblock can be bad.

He let go. Ugh. Maybe use two hands? Maybe use both strands for additional friction and control? Maybe rig for more friction?

His brake hand position is maybe a bit off? I take the brake strand in my hand down below and around my hip, not that close to my rap device.

Could also rig the rappel device on a sling above the harness, which, puts it in a spot that is easier to control.

Back to the autoblock, which, maybe shouldn't be used in flow, biners on the leg loop for an autoblock, where the rap device is directly off the belay loop, are notoriously unreliable. You need to get more space between them!

An autoblock is a really poor back up for bad technique. They don't always work, and, they require a fair amount of skill and experience to rig them properly. And, you only find out they don't work when you screw up. Didn't look like the autoblock contributed anything to his slowing down at all.

If your friend's instinct is to let go of the rope with any slip on a rappel...then...ugh...maybe a top belay and not a fireman's would be more appropriate.

Single rope, pack on back, slick rock...

Relying on gloves to make up for poor technique and skill and too little friction...never a good idear. Maybe a bunch of rappels without them would help gain some insight into rigging properly? If you "need" them, then, you're not doing it right.

Scary.

QFE

[blueeyes]

harbor freight mother f***ers!

:lol8: one of my fav quotes of all time

Been following this thread. Thanks for sharing the video. I appreciate the dialogue on what went wrong.

[hank moon]

there is an argument about jumping all over noobs

How about one for not jumping on anybody? What is the argument that it is ok to jump on a non-noob? Or...is there one?

[deagol]

Here is a question I had that does not apply to this situation specifically, but more of a general question: what are the drawbacks for only the last one down the rap pulling out the block and rapping double strand. This assumes that the first one down allowed the rope length to be set and that the rope length is adequate for both strands to reach bottom (no knot or pull cord needed obviously). The block can sometimes get caught when pulling the other strand after completing the rap and if the anchor was rigged as contingency, there would be no one left up top to lower if the need arose anyway- so what good does it do? I know it was mentioned that it was a clean pull in this situation but I have been in situations where the block made the pull more difficult. I have never done this, but was wondering if it might be more efficient and just as safe (for last one down only). Thoughts?

[ratagonia]

Here is a question I had that does not apply to this situation specifically, but more of a general question: what are the drawbacks for only the last one down the rap pulling out the block and rapping double strand. This assumes that the first one down allowed the rope length to be set and that the rope length is adequate for both strands to reach bottom (no knot or pull cord needed obviously). The block can sometimes get caught when pulling the other strand after completing the rap and if the anchor was rigged as contingency, there would be no one left up top to lower if the need arose anyway- so what good does it do? I know it was mentioned that it was a clean pull in this situation but I have been in situations where the block made the pull more difficult. I have never done this, but was wondering if it might be more efficient and just as safe (for last one down only). Thoughts?


There are a few situations that indicate for going either double strand or single strand as last person down, but in perhaps 90% of cases it is a matter of personal preference.

Indicators for double-strand:
a. trees/branches in the way that could snag a blocking biner on the way down.
b. last rapper only comfortable/safe when using double-strand technique.

Indicators for single-strand:
c. significant waterflow, double-strand could get twisted or confused.
d. rap into pool, good teamwork can have the rope stuffing while the last rapper is swimming.
e. last rapper only comfortable/safe using single-strand technique.
f. a strong suspicion that the rope may need to be climbed.

In other words, the usual suspects; less the "commitment of all resources to the rappel, complicating rescue" thing.

Tom :moses:

[deagol]

There are a few situations that indicate for going either double strand or single strand as last person down, but in perhaps 90% of cases it is a matter of personal preference.

Indicators for double-strand:
a. trees/branches in the way that could snag a blocking biner on the way down.
b. last rapper only comfortable/safe when using double-strand technique.

Indicators for single-strand:
c. significant waterflow, double-strand could get twisted or confused.
d. rap into pool, good teamwork can have the rope stuffing while the last rapper is swimming.
e. last rapper only comfortable/safe using single-strand technique.
f. a strong suspicion that the rope may need to be climbed.

In other words, the usual suspects; less the "commitment of all resources to the rappel, complicating rescue" thing.

Tom :moses:

Thanks Tom,
that makes perfect sense to me .....:cool2:

[oldno7]

As the last person down, in this situation, there would be no problem going double strand.
The problems arise when on a trip with a new canyoneer, how to best protect them.
Having options(contingencies) is always good. Leaving the pull side of a system open for potential "help" could be
as/more problematic than anticipated. One sets himself up for many disastrous scenarios if not trained/experienced in these type events.
Upon ascending to victim, what if you unweight him from his strand of rope??? (just something I hope the OP had in mind with leaving this type contingency in place.

Canyoneering is generally a common sense, uncomplicated endeavor. As in this example, I simple firemans belay would have alleviated any heartache and re-acuring nightmares.
It really IS That Simple. Now if the new canyoneer is not competent at rigging their own device each time, the equation changes again.
The facts are--Firemans or Video, the wrong choice was made.

Thanks for sharing your experience dsr:2thumbs:
Rubio is a fun, short, very low flow canyon(generally)

[ratagonia]

Wow, thanks for posting. It looks like the slope of the rap below where he let go may also have helped save him ?? Very scary..

I did Bailey Canyon in the San Gabriels this December and slipped on the slick, algae covered granite on one of the raps (the slip was only my feet, not slipping on the rope). I do not use an autoblock, but have it ingrained to never let go of the brake-strand rope. This slip was the first real test of that instinct. I actualy think I have GOPRO video of my slip. Not very exciting to watch and much closer to the bottom than this one.

Glad everything turned out OK.

A couple comments about autoblocs.

We use them at ZAC for guiding, and I know ATS uses them too, and teaches them. I NEVER use an autobloc for personal canyoneering (but I am "old school"). When teaching canyoneering classes, I encourage people to wean off the autobloc as soon as possible.

Using an Autobloc, one surmises that it is OK to let go of the rope at any time. After doing this a few times, it can become a habit, one that is hard to lose. On a trip a few years ago, without Autoblocs, a friend of a friend who had mostly used autoblocs let go to block a swing, and thankfully/amazingly got his hand back on the rope while he still could. I am STILL thankful. Therefore, while knowing and having an Autobloc is a good thing, I think people should get away from them as soon as possible, and get into the "NEVER let go of the rope" mode as early in their canyoneering career as possible.

I would also like to point out that Matt did not have an Autobloc on this rappel. An Autobloc is something that works (ie, grabs the rope when someone lets go), and what he had was a not-Autobloc. I have seen many people use a not-Autobloc to make themselves or someone else more comfortable. Presumeably they were under the impression that what they were rigging would work.

Autoblocs are somewhat difficult to rig correctly, and can be quite cantankerous. We have the advantage in guiding in that we use the same ropes day in day out, the same autoblocs, and have extensions available when needed (but they are still cantankerous). When guiding, we teach people how to rig their autobloc at the first rappel, and how to test it to make sure it works (grabs the rope); and during the next couple of raps we hope that various (not-on-rappel) 'problems' will crop up (such as clipping to the gear loop rather than the leg loop) so that we can use these as teaching moments. Of course, we watch them like a hawk, every time. By the end of the day, most clients over the age of 10 will have the autobloc down, and can rig themselves quickly and confidently without supervision (which is there nonetheless).

The point: I encourage folks, when they take their friends out, to NOT "rig their friends up", but to carefully and thoroughly train their friends in how to use the equipment, make sure it is working properly, and make sure that they are using the gear correctly. It takes only a few minutes more, if that, and increases the safety of the group, both that day and into the future. I also think it makes the experience of canyoneering much richer for the friends being "taken".

Tom :moses:

[canyoncaver]

To add to what Tom said, having the last person rap single strand allows someone to (more easily) ascend back up and help that person should they become stranded. As you noted, the contingency anchor cannot be operated for the last person. So, the only reasonable way to help this stuck/unconscious person would be to ascend back up to them. The rescuer can then help them become unstuck, pick them off, or ascend to the top and re-rig for lower.

That said, the last person down will still take out the block and go double when there is the possibility of snagginess on the pull.

[ratagonia]

Someone mentioned that one has to "let go" of the autobloc in order for it to grab the rope and stop a fall.

I realize this is a significant, known problem for the prusik "above". My experience with an autobloc below is that with any significant speed of rope running through it, the autobloc with grab and stop the fall, no matter how much the rappeller fights it. Although this may be more of a "edjumacted guess", since we do not test these things on a regular basis; but it takes careful management of the Autobloc in order to keep it running down the rope. If your Autobloc does not require careful tending, may I suggest it might be a not-Autobloc.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

To add to what Tom said, having the last person rap single strand allows someone to (more easily) ascend back up and help that person should they become stranded. As you noted, the contingency anchor cannot be operated for the last person. So, the only reasonable way to help this stuck/unconscious person would be to ascend back up to them. The rescuer can then help them become unstuck, pick them off, or ascend to the top and re-rig for lower.

That said, the last person down will still take out the block and go double when there is the possibility of snagginess on the pull.

You CAN do a contingency from below, if you really have to.

I hope you realize, Canyoncaver, that doing a "regular pickoff" would result in a bad thing. You would need to do the more-complex "pickoff to the victim's strand" maneuver.

Tom :moses:

[ghawk]

As far as taking friends go. I got almost all of my current group into canyoneering and never used an autobloc with any of them. I always take them rappeling before I take them to a canyon to make sure they have that part down. In the canyon I always make sure they had a fireman's belay from the bottom. I've had a few lose control before and the belay works fine. I think the autobloc can be tricky to get right and a bigger pain than a help. My opinion. Also, keeps people from getting dependent on it like Tom mentioned. I guess with guiding you might be taking people who have no experience and the autobloc could be useful...

[deagol]

another thought on not using an autoblock for me: it would not allow me to add friction or lock off my rappel device since I need the brake strand "mobile" to be able to do that. In other words, having brake strand attached to my leg loop would not allow me to wrap it around the device for added friction and lock off.

Also, I have noticed in the past when experimenting with leg loop attachments that the stress it puts on the leg loop doesn't seem to align well with the direction the leg loop is assembled. To state this another way, the cord or biner pulling up on the leg loop sort of seems to want to pull the stitching apart where the leg loop is sewn together infront. This would make more sense with a photo, but perhaps others have noticed this as well ?

[dougr]

harbor freight mother f***ers!

C'mon, that's low. I got the rope from Home Depot.

[dougr]

51532

Edit: Shows the incorrect rigging I mentioned in the first post. The 'biner (C) outside the leg loop (A) with the buckle (B) in between.

[ratagonia]

Caption? Explanation?

[ilipichicuma]

As far as taking friends go. I got almost all of my current group into canyoneering and never used an autobloc with any of them. I always take them rappeling before I take them to a canyon to make sure they have that part down. In the canyon I always make sure they had a fireman's belay from the bottom. I've had a few lose control before and the belay works fine. I think the autobloc can be tricky to get right and a bigger pain than a help. My opinion. Also, keeps people from getting dependent on it like Tom mentioned. I guess with guiding you might be taking people who have no experience and the autobloc could be useful...

Gavin got me into canyoneering, and I agree with him. I've never had a need for an autoblock, even when going down first. You just be careful and take it easy, and when I teach people to rappel, I also make sure they have a fireman belay, and one of the first things I tell them is that they NEVER let go of the rope with their brake hand. For the most part they just look obnoxious.

[ratagonia]

another thought on not using an autoblock for me: it would not allow me to add friction or lock off my rappel device since I need the brake strand "mobile" to be able to do that. In other words, having brake strand attached to my leg loop would not allow me to wrap it around the device for added friction and lock off.

Also, I have noticed in the past when experimenting with leg loop attachments that the stress it puts on the leg loop doesn't seem to align well with the direction the leg loop is assembled. To state this another way, the cord or biner pulling up on the leg loop sort of seems to want to pull the stitching apart where the leg loop is sewn together infront. This would make more sense with a photo, but perhaps others have noticed this as well ?

"Locking off" and "adding friction" are functions the Autobloc does well, therefore, it is unlikely you would think of using another method of adding these functions, when they are easily done with the Autobloc.

I am not trying to "sell" or encourage use of the Autobloc. It is a useful tool, with advantages and disadvantages.

I do, however, discourage use of the not-Autobloc. :cool2:

T :moses:

[canyoncaver]

You CAN do a contingency from below, if you really have to.

Yeah, you can do a contingency from below and I almost typed out how to do it in the earlier post. However, it requires more rope, and is complicated, and nobody does it. That's why I just left the post the way it was.


I hope you realize, Canyoncaver, that doing a "regular pickoff" would result in a bad thing. You would need to do the more-complex "pickoff to the victim's strand" maneuver.
Tom :moses:

Uhhh, not the way I do it. It only results in a bad thing if you screw it up! I assume this is a case of us misunderstanding each other because you are speaking canyonese and I am speaking caveish. I actually have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe it is ACA lingo?

In my world, a pickoff is when you ascend up past the patient (we don't call 'em victims until they're dead), attach a lowering device to your upper ascender, attach the patient to the end of the rope, thread the rope through the lowering device, lock it off, transfer the patient's weight to the lower, and lower away. There is more to it than that, but this is just the "we've already hijacked the thread quick version." Do not attempt without more information.

What are you calling a regular pickoff? Are you talking about ascending up the pull side? If so, then agreed, that would have a bad result.

[ratagonia]

What are you calling a regular pickoff? Are you talking about ascending up the pull side? If so, then agreed, that would have a bad result.

A "regular pickoff" would be by rappelling from above on a separate strand, picking the patient over onto your rap device (too), and descending tandem.

From this scenario, the regular pickoff would seem to be to ascend the free strand (the pull side), then pickoff. But somewhere in there, the transfer of both lives to the blocked strand would be required, sooner rather than later.

Tom

[deagol]

"Locking off" and "adding friction" are functions the Autobloc does well, therefore, it is unlikely you would think of using another method of adding these functions, when they are easily done with the Autobloc.

I am not trying to "sell" or encourage use of the Autobloc. It is a useful tool, with advantages and disadvantages.

I do, however, discourage use of the not-Autobloc. :cool2:

T :moses:

Hmm, that's interesting. I guess I don't know how that works , unless it means that just simply having a working autoblock accomplishes increasing friction and locking off. I guess that makes sense.

To the bolded, I use a Totem and add friction by wrapping the brake strand around the upper portion- works very well. I would not be able to do that if the brake strand were held down low by an autoblock. Also, locking off is just an additional (yet different) "wrap" through the biner and back over the top. It works sweet. One additional thing, on something like a 2-stage rappel, it is nice to be able to decrease friction when walking from the bottom of the 1st drop to the top of the 2nd drop. Baily Canyon has a rap like this.

I hope we are not hijacking the thread, but it does seem relevant, especialy the adding friction part. In the same canyon, I used the friction added mode on a free-hanging rappel and it was super easy to hold myself in position with minimal grip on the brake strand. It was also smooth going down the rope. Having a good rap device makes things a lot better, IMO.

[dougr]

From this scenario, the regular pickoff would seem to be to ascend the free strand (the pull side), then pickoff. But somewhere in there, the transfer of both lives to the blocked strand would be required, sooner rather than later.

My thinking was not to do a pickoff under any circumstances. It was either to free him if stuck or go to the top and lower. I have practiced a regular pickoff to my strand when coming from my usual top position but have never needed it in canyon. I am well equipped and have been doing this a while, but I have never practiced and don't even have the gear to transfer to the blocked line under load.

The bigger problem comes when you don't do the simple things like a fireman's belay and instead video for vanity.

[ratagonia]

My thinking was not to do a pickoff under any circumstances. It was either to free him if stuck or go to the top and lower. I have practiced a regular pickoff to my strand when coming from my usual top position but have never needed it in canyon. I am well equipped and have been doing this a while, but I have never practiced and don't even have the gear to transfer to the blocked line under load.

The bigger problem comes when you don't do the simple things like a fireman's belay and instead video for vanity.

Support. A pickoff should certainly be the last resort in most rescue situations, as it is complex, slow, and puts both rescuer and patient at risk.

Tom

[canyoncaver]

Support. A pickoff should certainly be the last resort in most rescue situations, as it is complex, slow, and puts both rescuer and patient at risk.

Tom

Agreed. The advice I got (and give) in rescue training is to not even attempt a pickoff in a real situation unless you have successfully practiced one in the previous two months. This is a technique you have to have down as second nature or you can end up with two stranded people real quick.

[reflection]

The learning curve.

Pick off. Theoretically, if a third party or group had been above, and the rapper had been stuck, the other group with a second rope could descend down, tie off, reconnect the other party and rap down with both attached. In the example as is, the photog would have ascended the pull line (I agree) and once there, could have rigged a system to unweight the rapper from his device. But then just what? Normally in a pick off A is above rescued party B, and B then attached to A as they both descend. If B is attached to a stiff rope though, how does A, (that comes to the rescue, and is above him/her) attach a rap device to that taut line? I guess A attches himself to A, let's the rap device stay on B, but A is the one holding and feeding the line as they drop? Or, is there other techique that exists? Or maybe A goes to the top of the line, rigs another block on his side and then down and goes for the pick off, lowering on the line that he just went up. (absent others above, he then has to go back up and release one or both of the blocks)

(I have been in involved in pick offs to release folk that were stuck. Rapping down a 2nd rope, or going down a pull cord line (after blocking it). The lowering has always occured below me and on my line & on my device.)
_________
The emporer offers:

A "regular pickoff" would be by rappelling from above on a separate strand, picking the patient over onto your rap device (too), and descending tandem.

From this scenario, the regular pickoff would seem to be to ascend the free strand (the pull side), then pickoff. But somewhere in there, the transfer of both lives to the blocked strand would be required, sooner rather than later.

[canyoncaver]

For the single-rope pickoffs I have done, the rescuer is on ascenders, not rappel device. It does not matter whether the rescuer starts above or below the patient. The rescuer will need to get above the patient in either case. This can be accomplished by climbing up past the patient, or downclimbing on ascenders from above. As most cave trips are not pull-downs, we are usually ascending up past the patient on the patient's line. (It is the only line.)

One step I left out for clarity earlier but feel obligated now to mention, is that you clip a safety tether between rescuer and patient as soon as patient is reached. This allows for removal of patient's gear from the rope in order to clean up the situation and prepare for lower.

If you read my post above, you will see I am talking about lowering the patient from a rap device attached to the rescuer's ascenders. This takes care of the weighted rope below you problem.

Once again, pickoffs are a last resort answer. Consider another course of action first.

[reflection]

thank you. To date, I have not ascended/practiced passing a party that was caught on rope. I see no problem there, I guess the rescuers rap device is inserted after the patient is taken off the line and is hanging on the rescuers sling leash/tether. Makes sense. Earlier I imagined (as an option) the procedure, (coming down a line that the patient was on - without mechanical ascenders; I had to do that once.) Friction hitches, Blakes, Distel, VT...I used a Blake's Hitch one day to go down a line, clipped a tether to the party and then inserted a rap device after which the two of us went down.

To me, this narrative is worth while. Ascending, self rescue, pick offs, taking the weight off of someones line. Pretty common to have a least one miscue a season, where some rookie or experienced party, catches a glove, shirt or large strand of hair in a device. If the rapper doesn't have (a) slings (b)prussic/slings (c) mechanical unit; and can't get to them quickly; or doesn't have the skill set to set it up; then someone else has to (a) come up/down their line or (b) come down another line and set up a sling or ladder system so the person (assuming they are cognitive/able) can stand up, take the weight off their line and take the object out of the rap device.

I have not been in the arena of caving, but I have been on many canyon trips where ropes were/are set and after going down, we ascend (some pretty significant footage.) Once in a while - couple of times - either a miscue or fatigue put someone in the zone of needing assistance. (someone had to ascend up or down to them). They were either caught on something (miscue) or their pack was taken from them (fatigue).

Other times in Zion I've come across parties (experienced climbers they always told me) who had rapped down free hanging drops of maybe 150 ft and were double stranding on a 50 mtr line. (they would go down 83 ft and holler oops.) The rapper who had no ascender, screaming, dangling on the end of the line.(they had the sense to tie off.) I/we had to go down our line, hook on to the party, have them disconnect from their line, set up on our line and then rap down on our line (not a pick off). These experiences, years ago, heightened my interest in and attention to solving problems in canyons when folk/myself are stranded. And what to do if somebody got injured or in a pickle. Thereafter I most often carried small ascenders/pocket ladder and slings, that I could get to quickly. (I'd carry other slings/gear in the pack)

There are many ways to do it, (rescue) some probably more artful or proficient than my groups style. Regardles, one little lesson we learned though was that when someone is caught or hanging in distress, there is great need to get them out of that circumstance quickly, like immediatly.

I looked at the video twice, and stopped the motion a couple of times. Can't tell if the line is 8 or 9? Appears to be a basic ATC (not an XP). Rope is run through a single biner (vs. two biners) and there is no rope through a biner on the right leg. The slide, slope, slight friction, pack, water and (something else?) stalled his demise. Yes, the best part of this whole story is that this fellow is still with us. (hopefully he gets practice in technique re dialing up optional and correct friction.) The solice and beauty of these places is worth seeing and experiencing. That one event/slip, will not create an identity; with mentoring and practice new safe horizons will unfold.

[mgetchis]

I have a few thoughts after reading the thread:

I think this happened because of inexperience.
He slipped because was not once perpendicular to the rock face, especially with that last step.
He had not made the "never let go of brake hand" rule concrete in his own mind. Grabbing above his device is further evidence of this.

The rigging of his autoblock was obviously incorrect, but that is not why he slipped. Autoblocks are there in case you screw up.

The discussion about using both strands, or increasing friction, is a bit confusing. How would 2 lines have helped him to not slip or not let go of his brake hand to grab high?

As far as not using an autoblock because it is class "c"; hard-fast rules are a great way to learn, but experience allows one to evaluate risk on a continuous basis. If I HAD to have the video, I would have certainly used an autoblock instead of a firemans belay. That's why we should all learn as much as we can, and be creative with when we use certain techniques. The flow was minor, nobody was wearing a wetsuit (that i could see) so temps were likely not an issue.

And video from below is almost never as good as a POV shot from the dude on rap!

[Brian in SLC]

The discussion about using both strands, or increasing friction, is a bit confusing. How would 2 lines have helped him to not slip or not let go of his brake hand to grab high?

Having an adequate amount of friction equals being in control, and, when I'm in control, I have better situational awareness, am more relaxed, and, am able to make minor adjustments in body position rather than be distracted by the stress of too little friction.

Not have an adequate amount of friction is really responsible for all sorts of things, to babies crying, to people going hungry, famine, disease, war, pretty much all of societies ills.

Ha ha.

[ratagonia]

Having an adequate amount of friction equals being in control, and, when I'm in control, I have better situational awareness, am more relaxed, and, am able to make minor adjustments in body position rather than be distracted by the stress of too little friction.

Not have an adequate amount of friction is really responsible for all sorts of things, to babies crying, to people going hungry, famine, disease, war, pretty much all of societies ills.

Ha ha.

An odd way to look at it, but we've had this discussion before and I have to admit there is a pebble of truth in the claim.

A rappeller should know how to obtain the level of friction they want with the device they have, with whatever rope is encountered. So it is odd (to me) to say that they knew all about rigging their device with two strands and knew very much less about rigging their device with one strand. It is certainly possible, but it points to a lack of training and experience, rather than use one rope vs. two ropes vs. three ropes, vs. four ropes... (turtles all the way down!).

Certainly, someone with little to no training or experience might rig a single line and a double line the same way, and they will be "safer" on the double rope. But then again, someone with little to no training is NEVER safe, out on their own. (But they can be lucky. I was!)

Tom :moses:

[Slot Machine]

The discussion about using both strands, or increasing friction, is a bit confusing. How would 2 lines have helped him to not slip or not let go of his brake hand to grab high?

I asked the initial question about 2 strands.

After watching the video I noticed that Matt used an ATC with no added friction on what looks like a skinny rope. I've used that same setup found it to be very fast, I'll say a 10/10 on the "fast" scale. For me that is unnerving, but for people that are lighter than me, or more skilled, I'm sure it is fine.

Matt probably weighs about what I weigh though so I fugured he would opt for 2 strands i.e. more friction, perhaps a 7/10 speed rating (IMHO). I think the 2 strand setup (on a standard ATC) is much easier to control. I was later informed that they had a contingency rigged on the 2nd strand and that they were comfortable rapping the single strand.

I agree with you that the accident had little or nothing to do with rapping a on a single strand if that is what they are comfortable with. :nod:

[ratagonia]

I asked the initial question about 2 strands.

After watching the video I noticed that Matt used an ATC with no added friction on what looks like a skinny rope. I've used that same setup found it to be very fast, I'll say a 10/10 on the "fast" scale. For me that is unnerving, but for people that are lighter than me, or more skilled, I'm sure it is fine.

Matt probably weighs about what I weigh though so I fugured he would opt for 2 strands i.e. more friction, perhaps a 7/10 speed rating (IMHO). I think the 2 strand setup (on a standard ATC) is much easier to control. I was later informed that they had a contingency rigged on the 2nd strand and that they were comfortable rapping the single strand.

I agree with you that the accident had little or nothing to do with rapping a on a single strand if that is what they are comfortable with. :nod:

But, perhaps Matt did not know how to rig with more friction. So...

Then again, REALLY, what happened is he let go with his brake hand. Hard to recover from that, at any normal rappel friction setting, single, double, triple, quadruple strand, whatever!

Tom

[Slot Machine]

But, perhaps Matt did not know how to rig with more friction. So...

Then again, REALLY, what happened is he let go with his brake hand. Hard to recover from that, at any normal rappel friction setting, single, double, triple, quadruple strand, whatever!

Tom

I agree with you and mgetchis. Your initial analysis and questions were more educated than mine. :gents:

Bob

[dougr]

This was on 9mm Bluewater Canyonline, technora/nylon, which I find sticky when wet.

[moabmatt]

Regardless of the friction set up in the device, there would not have been a difference in the slipperiness of the wall. Slippery walls can certainly provide an added challenge to the rappel.

So, on a somewhat related note, I'd recommend that for certain polished walls folks rappel down on their hip or butt instead of trying to stay on their feet. I know this sounds weird, but it makes life easier - and safer - on those slippery slopes. I do this all the time, even on dry walls. It's actually a lot of fun and you can typically rappel much faster sliding down a polished wall than by walking down it. You're essentially doing a controlled slide or toboggan. I'm always amazed at just how much folks will struggle to stay on their feet when they could just slide down with ease.

Simply put, you can't slip if you're aready against the wall. In this case he'd definitely get soaked doing this and without a wetsuit this may not have been an atttractive option. But as they say...You dry quicker than you heal!

[ratagonia]

So, on a somewhat related note, I'd recommend that for certain polished walls folks rappel down on their hip or butt instead of trying to stay on their feet. I know this sounds weird, but it makes life easier - and safer - on those slippery slopes. I do this all the time, even on dry walls. It's actually a lot of fun and you can typically rappel much faster sliding down a polished wall than by walking down it. You're essentially doing a controlled slide or toboggan. I'm always amazed at just how much folks will struggle to stay on their feet when they could just slide down with ease.

Simply put, you can't slip if you're aready against the wall. In this case he'd definitely get soaked doing this and without a wetsuit this may not have been an atttractive option. But as they say...You dry quicker than you heal!

Total :2thumbs: agreeeeeement.

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

Regardless of the friction set up in the device, there would not have been a difference in the slipperiness of the wall. Slippery walls can certainly provide an added challenge to the rappel.

So, on a somewhat related note, I'd recommend that for certain polished walls folks rappel down on their hip or butt instead of trying to stay on their feet. I know this sounds weird, but it makes life easier - and safer - on those slippery slopes. I do this all the time, even on dry walls. It's actually a lot of fun and you can typically rappel much faster sliding down a polished wall than by walking down it. You're essentially doing a controlled slide or toboggan. I'm always amazed at just how much folks will struggle to stay on their feet when they could just slide down with ease.

Simply put, you can't slip if you're aready against the wall. In this case he'd definitely get soaked doing this and without a wetsuit this may not have been an atttractive option. But as they say...You dry quicker than you heal!

I also agree with this. Also, if it's slippery I'll sometimes slide down with my knees on the wall. For some reason I feel more in control that way than I do on my side, not sure why. It is a lot more stable than trying to stay on your feet, though.

[mgetchis]

Yes the buttslide is a good way to prevent the slippery feet. It comes down to good rap technique on this one. Two lines or twenty, you should not use the number of lines as how you plan to increase friction. 9mm isn't really that skinny these days, and is still within the operating range of most of the ATC's I have encountered. Practice Practice Practice! 90 degrees to the wall, never let go of brake hand, even with a prussik, until it is tied off!

[unripecoconut]

This is a fantastic thread! Rubio is kind of a funny canyon. Very slippery and lots of newbies. I was there this past weekend with my wife and a friend who had previous experience in Zion and rock climbing - 3 people total. We were practicing for a Zion trip.

We had a near accident on a different part of this canyon. I had the "new" person go down second a couple of times to ensure she was belayed as I assessed her abilities. On a 25ft rap, she slipped in the waterway. I saw her left hand go down to stop the fall, then her right hand left the rope completely for about a second. The belayer saw it coming and engaged the belay. I let the rappeler know that she had completely let go of the rope - she was NOT AWARE that she did it. Afterwards, we spent some time "refreshing" the finer points of not letting go, using an autoblock, and how to belay properly.

I used to hate the autoblock and found it slow and pointless. Now I really like it when used with my chain reactor - it helps to practice and tune it in for different ropes. I agree it should not be a crutch - yet when used properly, it's very dependable (like most gear). It's very handy for the first person going down, in waterfalls, and at night. I have every rappeler test their systems first, auto-block or not. If there's a reliable fireman's belay below, I usually say no auto-block is needed.

Thalehaha Falls has a nice flat station to test everything out ahead of time. When we arrived at the falls this weekend, I had a contingency anchor rigged for single rope rap and our new member chose to use the auto-block while being belayed. Slow, but no worries. I collected a big locking SMC carabiner on the webbing of this rappel and couldn't figure out the scenario that led to it being there (another rescue?). Maybe someone didn't trust the rapide.

[ghawk]

Afterwards, we spent some time "refreshing" the finer points of not letting go

:haha: Always good to go over those every once in awhile :spruceup:

[eldofool]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but in your scenario, with your less-experienced partner insisting on going after you, you could have pre-rigged his set-up. In flowing water, however, the third hand friction hitch may be a serious liability. Also, a Fireman's belay from you could have avoided this situation entirely. Better come home alive than have great footage of your buddy dying.

[Canyonater]

Very strange that this thread has popped back to the top today as I just did this canyon today and was thinking about this incident. ..the rappel looks fairly sloped in the video, but in reality it is much more steeper than it looks.

[townsend]

Bob

Going down the water way is how we roll in SoCal canyons. They were doing the canyon which is in the water course. It's a low flow class C canyon. Not so different than going down Boundry in Zion with water flow. They are doing single strand because that is how the big boys do it (versus toss n' go). I suspect they felt sufficiently confident that neither suspected that this accident might transpire.

It is interesting in looking at the video is slow motion. The rappeller is out of balance with his torso leaning into the fall line. This reduces the pressure being applied through the feet which are not being maintained perpendicular to the rock face. As he slips he removes his brake hand from the rope to reach out and absorb the immediate impact of hitting the rock. As he begins to accelerate he reaches up and grabs the rope above the rappel devise. His hands are gloved. This maneuver undoubtedly slowed his descent. About half way down he bounces in the water course and impacts the back wall in the open book but this impact is absorbed by his backpack. Immediately after this his head also impacts the open book wall behind him but this blow is cushioned by his helmet. He survives a potentially fatal fall as a result of this. Of course it would have been better to have maintained better posture at the top of the rappel to maintain more force to the soles of his boots, to absorbed a potential hip pointer from the small slip on the rope as opposed to taking the braking hand off the rope, and finally, as pointed out a fireman's belay would also have been beneficial here. I know there are other points to be learned here.

All in all, it is amazing that there are no injuries and amazing that there is video of this accident to facilitate its analysis.:phew:

Ken

Glad he was not seriously injured, and yes, I recognize this is an old conversation/thread. But I think Ken nails it in what I bold-faced above. Being out of proper alignment almost dooms one to slip on polished, wet rock. At this angle, his feet no longer have enough contact with the wall so that he can continue "walking" down the face of the cliff. Once he slips, his feet are dangling uselessly below his torso, and as he swings toward the rock face, he reflexively releases his brake hand so he can "stiff arm" the wall and avoid coming into contact with it.

To be sure, some slipping may have still occurred even if his legs were perpendicular to the rock face, but he could have warded off the wall by repositioning his feet, and not been tempted to use his arm/hand to avoid impact with the wall. Leaning back and being mostly perpendicular to the rock face is also important for negotiating overhangs and lips as well. Again, so glad he sustained no serious injuries. Live and learn.

[ratagonia]

Glad he was not seriously injured, and yes, I recognize this is an old conversation/thread. But I think Ken nails it in what I bold-faced above. Being out of proper alignment almost dooms one to slip on polished, wet rock. At this angle, his feet no longer have enough contact with the wall so that he can continue "walking" down the face of the cliff. Once he slips, his feet are dangling uselessly below his torso, and as he swings toward the rock face, he reflexively releases his brake hand so he can "stiff arm" the wall and avoid coming into contact with it.

To be sure, some slipping may have still occurred even if his legs were perpendicular to the rock face, but he could have warded off the wall by repositioning his feet, and not been tempted to use his arm/hand to avoid impact with the wall. Leaning back and being mostly perpendicular to the rock face is also important for negotiating overhangs and lips as well. Again, so glad he sustained no serious injuries. Live and learn.

People will watch and read this and come to different conclusions as to the "cause" of the accident.

Me, I KNOW for CERTAIN, that the dude had two eggs over-easy and a cinnabon for breakfast, and was clearly out of alignment with the odd-numbers that keep out universe running smoothly. ONE egg or THREE eggs people, NEVER eat exactly TWO!!!!

I can say that I often rappel in unusual positions, including being almost vertical and letting my feet slide down the rock. Which saved my life in one instance. Focusing on his rappel position misses two much more important points, which to me are the key CAUSES of this accident:

A. someone chose to take a beginner through a Class C canyon as a twosome - inappropriate choice of canyon for this individual.

B. someone chose to shoot frakin' video, rather than provide a bottom belay to a beginner on a challenging, slippery rappel.

These are the CAUSES of this accident - everything else is a contributing factor. You can point to his lack of rappelling skill - which just reinforces my points A and B above.

Tom :moses:

[townsend]

Tom,

I was focusing more on the immediate cause that led the rappeler to let go of the brake line---he slipped and stuck his arm out to "absorb the immediate impact of hitting the rock" (Ken's description).

Nonetheless, your points are well made and focus on the broader context of poor choices that were made (beginner in wet canyon, and lack of bottom belay), raising the risk of an accident occurring.

[Taylor]

I also recognize this is an old thread (18 months) and as such i find it odd/annoying that Eldofool resurrected it. However, since it has been resurrected, I must strongly disagree with you Tom. The only cause of the accident was letting go with his brake hand. Period. Never let go with your brake hand while rappelling. Ever. Unless unconscious, then, still don't let go of the rope. If you want to say the victim made a mistake choosing to do a class c canyon, fine. I refuse to believe any adult is "taken" into the backcountry. Recent experience with Salt Lake SAR reinforces this concept: Our last 10 call-outs were a result of 8 mistakes and 2 medical situations. 0 "accidents".

[ratagonia]

I also recognize this is an old thread (18 months) and as such i find it odd/annoying that Eldofool resurrected it. However, since it has been resurrected, I must strongly disagree with you Tom. The only cause of the accident was letting go with his brake hand. Period. Never let go with your brake hand while rappelling. Ever. Unless unconscious, then, still don't let go of the rope. If you want to say the victim made a mistake choosing to do a class c canyon, fine. I refuse to believe any adult is "taken" into the backcountry. Recent experience with Salt Lake SAR reinforces this concept: Our last 10 call-outs were a result of 8 mistakes and 2 medical situations. 0 "accidents".

And how many of those were because people chose to do something that was inappropriate for their skill level?

I realize there is usually a "tactical" reason for the accident, and a "strategic" reason for the accident. You are focused on the "tactical"; I am focused on the "strategic" because I think there is more to learn by doing so. A beginner rapping on a slippery rappel, slipping, hitting the wall hard and letting go is not an unexpected event. Which is why there is a moral imperative to provide a bottom belay to beginners.

Tom

[hank moon]

And how many of those were because people chose to do something that was inappropriate for their skill level?

I realize there is usually a "tactical" reason for the accident, and a "strategic" reason for the accident. You are focused on the "tactical"; I am focused on the "strategic" because I think there is more to learn by doing so. A beginner rapping on a slippery rappel, slipping, hitting the wall hard and letting go is not an unexpected event. Which is why there is a moral imperative to provide a bottom belay to beginners.

Tom

X2. The ANAC headline might go something like:

Leadership failure, Rappel error, Poor Position, Slip on Wet/Slimy Rock, Loss of Control on Rappel, Exceeding Abilities, No Belay

[Taylor]

I agree that a bottom belay is usually, perhaps always, a good practice. And yes, exceeding one's abilities is often a contributing factor. The problem I have is when you say someone was "taken" on a trip or blame is placed on a "trip leader". Can we agree that adults, young adults, even older teens have personal responsibility for safety?

[hank moon]

I agree that a bottom belay is usually, perhaps always, a good practice. And yes, exceeding one's abilities is often a contributing factor. The problem I have is when you say someone was "taken" on a trip or blame is placed on a "trip leader". Can we agree that adults, young adults, even older teens have personal responsibility for safety?

No absolutes out there....and your plea for agreement raises a question that could have a very large answer. Here is a small one for now:

There is a range of responsibility for the individual and for the group, the level of which is proportional to the ability/experience level of the individual

[Brian in SLC]

No absolutes out there....and your plea for agreement raises a question that could have a very large answer. Here is a small one for now:

There is a spectrum of responsibility for the individual and for the group, the level of which is proportional to the ability/experience level of the individual

Blind leading the naked...

Its a quandary. If you're in and part of a group, there's group think and all that. Sometimes no one wants to mention an unsafe or less-than-skilled person in the group, for whatever reason. So, in some of these accidents, its not necessarily the "group leader's" fault, but, anyone, really, in the group that did see an issue with a person's lack of experience but didn't say anything. Hugely common, methinks, especially in groups of young men or mixed parties.

Underlying cause for a large number of avalanche fatalities, methinks. Group think (or lack of). Group dynamics.

Sure, you can blame an unskilled or inexperienced person with their decision to do something over their heads...but...I think that the people in their group also accept some of that responsibility for recognizing such.

I see it in climbing all the time. Safety, or lack of, fairly common even amongst very experienced people. And certain practises. I manage to meet new people both canyoning and climbing on a fairly regular basis. The mating ritual for partnership can't be just verbal. Most folks are full of crap about their skills. You have to observe them. And, speak up and show an example of correct skills if need be. Otherwise...when an accident happens...I think its partly on you.

Case in point. My habit, even when climbing short pitches, is to find the blunt end of the rope and I tie a figure eight on a bite (some folks just a quick overhand knot, I like the loop, I can clip it, and, its big enough to notice). When I partner with someone I don't know, and, they flake the rope, do they do this? If not, then, I do it. Couple of weeks ago, two different partners I climbed with for the first time. Both very saavy. One, knot in the end of the rope, one, not. So, I did. We ended up not moving the rope to climb an adjacent pitch to a very short one, but, as I'd done my knot bight habit...that the route turned out to be 30m long, and, not in the guidebook, which, was a surprise, we didn't get the ultimate surprise by lowering off the end of the rope. Wasn't a close call, because, we both noticed the rope length, but, still, a good reminder for a saftey habit.

Anyhoo....the blame game...interesting...

[Brian in SLC]

Timely read...go Ali O!

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/tnb-the-biggest-issue-in-climbing-is-gym-climbers-going-outside

Quote below:

Encourage any gym climber you know to take classes. To read up. To hire a guide (see amga.com)—especially in learning the additional complexities and risks of trad climbing. It’s worth whatever money it takes. There is so much to learn in climbing, and in this sport we can’t afford to learn from our mistakes.

If you see someone erring out at the crags, speak up. Your opinion may not be welcome (mine sure wasn’t last time I tried), but you could prevent an accident, and will at least gain peace of mind from trying.

And while we are at it, here are two things for each of us to do every time, a matter of sustained vigilance. Most of the accidents this magazine sees could be prevented with these steps. We could fill the Accident Report every single issue with incidents regarding the latter.

• Visually check each other’s knots and belay setups every pitch, or at least ask, before a person leaves the ground, “How’s your knot?” When you untie and tie in five or 10 times a day at a sport crag, it’s too easy to mess up, and to neglect to check. Check.

• Always have a knot in the end of your rope, when belaying, lowering and rappelling. Not just neophytes but experienced climbers neglect this all the time. I personally know six people—six—who have accidentally dropped someone when the rope end slipped through a belay device. Just tie the knot!

[ratagonia]

The problem I have is when you say someone was "taken" on a trip or blame is placed on a "trip leader". Can we agree that adults, young adults, even older teens have personal responsibility for safety?

You seem to be thinking that all 'adults' are capable of managing their own safety. They are not. It takes a while for some people (and QUITE a while for others) to develop enough skill to manage their own safety. They are "being taken", whether acknowledged by the experienced people in the group or not.

As an experienced person, Taylor, I am sure you are aware that YOUR safety is effected by the safety of everyone else . It IS your responsibility that everyone else in the group be safe, if for nothing more than selfish reasons. No man is an island, etc. etc.

Nothing irritates me more than people who have accidents or rescues and then blame it on their partner. "There were two slow people in the party who slowed us down..." "My partner was not up for it..." I translate these to: "Because I am an idiot, I let my big frakkin ego drive the agenda rather than choosing an adventure appropriate for the group, or a group appropriate for the agenda".

Your statement, Taylor, annoys me considerable (nothing personal) because it is this attitude that has resulted in several accidents this year, including at least one death. We can learn from accidents by looking at the underlying causes of them, but saying some beginner should not have let go of the brake hand is like pegging the cause of an avalanche death as: "the snow came down and buried them".

Tom

[Eric Holden]

• Visually check each other’s knots and belay setups every pitch, or at least ask, before a person leaves the ground, “How’s your knot?” When you untie and tie in five or 10 times a day at a sport crag, it’s too easy to mess up, and to neglect to check. Check.


I made this mistake once. Tied the figure 8 correctly about 400 times and then once at a gym I got a little too relaxed. As I was being lowered I realized I had somehow tied into my leg loop instead of my tie points on my harness. Now its double check everytime, everytime.

[Brian in SLC]

I made this mistake once. Tied the figure 8 correctly about 400 times and then once at a gym I got a little too relaxed. As I was being lowered I realized I had somehow tied into my leg loop instead of my tie points on my harness. Now its double check everytime, everytime.

Yep. Started rappelling from my harness gear loop last year. Glad to catch that prior to full launch.

[skiclimb3287]

Yep. Started rappelling from my harness gear loop last year. Glad to catch that prior to full launch.

So Im not the only one to do that! Was more concerned with getting three newbies and my now wife through Echo safely than I was with myself. After my group rapelled down and one got lowered into the pothole, I rigged quickly and weighted the rope. Luckily, I always stay anchored until I know I am fully on the rope. When I leaned back and gave a little tug, a stitch in my gear loop popped. I learned that hanging my totem from my gear loop between rappels was a bad idea. Now I always leave it on my belay loop and clip the other end across to a gear loop to keep it out of the way.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

[deagol]

I had a biner just hooked to the belt of my harness (since it made stuffing the rope bag easer when clipped there). I "forgot" this and I clipped my rap device to it - instead of the belay/rappel loop- unthinkingly and did the 2nd rap in Cassidy free hanging like that. Things felt weird but I didn't know what was wrong until I figured it out in the free hanging section. That really sucked..

[eldofool]

Sorry by resurrecting this thread I annoyed anybody. Not my intention.
I have to agree with Tom that not everyone is capable of having good judgement in the outdoors. Not everyone has gained requisite experience. That is why people often hire guides.
Also have to agree with Tom that one of the keys to a safe outing is proper terrain selection. I know as a climbing guide that getting my guests on the right climb is often the difference between having a successful day or not. And here I talk primarily about enjoyment, not safety, because on a guided climbing day, in any terrain where the consequences / probability of a fall reach a (low) threshold, they are on a rope. And they never rappel without a belay or fireman's.
The point that I contrast with canyoneering is how much of a canyon outing is spent unroped, and often in exposed situations. Experience level must be factored into proper canyon selection, and in my experience, especially in groups, is not often factored, for various reason (for example, not everyone needs to be exposed to all risk in a canyon, hence it is often tempting to bring less-experienced people along on serious outings).

[mgetchis]

Anyone making the personal responsibility claim, please answer the following:

Where do we get our decisions from?

Ok that was a loaded question, it's our brains. We know that two things develop our brain as such, DNA and experience. Neither of these two are solely dictated by the individual, indeed this would require an omnipotent perspective beyond that o the protobrain. What? Blaming someone for an unfortunate outcome is to ignore the DNA and experience which shaped said outcome. So save the "personal responsibility" arguement for the correct venue. A place where DNA and experience are irrelevant. Save it for church.

[ratagonia]

Anyone making the personal responsibility claim, please answer the following:

Where do we get our decisions from?

Ok that was a loaded question, it's our brains. We know that two things develop our brain as such, DNA and experience. Neither of these two are solely dictated by the individual, indeed this would require an omnipotent perspective beyond that o the protobrain. What? Blaming someone for an unfortunate outcome is to ignore the DNA and experience which shaped said outcome. So save the "personal responsibility" arguement for the correct venue. A place where DNA and experience are irrelevant. Save it for church.

Whoa. A very unusual addition to this thread.

Many very smart people have written volumes on this subject... and it is still entirely murky. Certainly having an uber-being is the easy way out, but... clarity in the realm of free will (free agency) has so far escaped humankind - or perhaps I just don't like the answer the people that "have clarity" on this issue have come up with...

:moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Anyone making the personal responsibility claim, please answer the following:

Where do we get our decisions from?

Ahh, ya, I think I got this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMVOzPPtiw&

[dougr]

@mget, do you even comprehend for a moment how utterly destructive your claim is for a society? How completely contrary to the history of man it is? How evil triumphs over good with a societal construct like that?

[SRG]

We know that two things develop our brain as such, DNA and experience. Neither of these two are solely dictated by the individual,


How completely contrary to the history of man it is?

Now, if only the rappeller had a monozygotic twin and they each did the rappel 50 times we'd be able to calculate the heritability of losing control of the rappel and solve this once and for all! :lol8: