Super Amazing Slots?

[Slot Machine]

This drainage caught my eye while cruising Google Earth. From left to right,
does anybody know the names of these 6 slots (if they have names)? Is there any
beta on this area? Slot #6 doesn't look like a slot from space, more like a
sandy wash. They appear to have a nice road that leads straight to the edge of
the drainage, I assume it's not for the view...

37.681307,-110.52907&spn=0.025575,0.03562&t=h&z=15

[goofball]

far left = daves not dead, can find it here - http://www.ajroadtrips.com/go/t/utah/powell/davesnotdead . i give it a 5 out of 10. teh others i don't know. i heard the next one east of daves not dead is the highlight of the complex. don't pass up a hike out onto good hope mesa to look off the edge over lake powell and the surrounding country. nice.

50894

50895

50896

[Slot Machine]

Cool! Nice pics! It is always nice to find a reassuring cairn in the middle of
a technical canyon. :haha: I'll be sure to check out the view from good hope
mesa. Jason, thanks for the info!

From left to right:

1. Dave's not Dead
2. ?? (the best one?)
3. ??
4. ??
5. ??
6. looks like a sandy wash.

Anybody else?

[Slot Machine]

My detective work today uncovered some revealing stuff:

I found Anton Solovyev hiked a canyon on Ticaboo Mesa called Paradiso (Rated
3AII)
http://www.solovyev.com/outdoors/outdoor-resume.html

I also found that 13'er Girl hiked this same Paradiso
http://www.13ergirl.com/paradiso/paradiso.html
AND a canyon called Inferno.

Oddly her Paradiso and Inferno links read the same thing:
*** The content of this page was removed on 8/29/11 due to the outrage of unkown
member(s) of the canyoneering community ***

This REALLY sparked my interest. Outrage? Demanding a legit climber/canyoneer
modify her website? Really? :roll:

Oh yeah, aren't these the very same names of Dante's books? :eek2: What about
Purgatorio?

So I Google: Purgatory and Ticaboo and discover Purgatory on Alan Silverstein's
website:
http://silgro.com/trip_reports/2008.0914-21_LakePowell.htm#Sep17

And I Google: Dante and Canyoneering and discover Dante 5 on Luke Gaylan's
website:
https://plus.google.com/photos/116220270399276886436/albums?banner=pwa

So here's what I think: Since Dante's Inferno, Purgatorio and Paradiso were
written in that order, I think the missing canyons go by those names in that
order.

From left to right:

1. Dave's not Dead
2. Inferno
3. Paradiso
4. Purgatory
5. Dante 5
6. sandy wash

Can anybody verify if this is correct? Is there any beta on the Dante's? They
must be good if they inspire "outrage... in the canyoneering community".


:naughty:

[juaquin.phoenix]

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[ratagonia]

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[Iceaxe]

Bro, you gotta lot of free time for internet canyon investigation? Perhaps you should be out doing canyons and building relationships instead of broad-banding canyons that others toil and sweat helped pioneer. I don't know anything about these slots but there's probably a decent reason why they haven't been put out there. Moreover, you seem to be wanting to burn your bridges before their even built.
JP

:roll:




From left to right:

1. Dave's not Dead
2. Inferno
3. Paradiso
4. Purgatory
5. Dante 5
6. sandy wash




Nice detective work. :2thumbs: You have to love Google Earth. :nod:

You are free to post whatever you wish and ask questions as these canyons belong to all of us. If folks choose to help you or not in your quest that is their prerogative.

And when I hear the words pioneer used in regards to Lake Powell canyons I have to chuckle. Before the dam was built every inch of the shoreline had to be surveyed. The surveys were done from both river and rim. And those survey crews followed the miners and Anasazi that came before them.

You might find this useful when researching Lake Powell, it contains some good stuff.

http://silgro.com/LakePowell-hikes.htm#DougsSoundCave

It's from a hiker, but adventurous hikers know where the slots that stopped them are located and normally have good intel. :nod:

[Deathcricket]

Nice detective work. :2thumbs: You have to love Google Earth. :nod:

You are free to post whatever you wish and ask questions as these canyons belong to all of us. If folks choose to help you or not in your quest that is their prerogative.

And when I hear the words pioneer used in regards to Lake Powell canyons I have to chuckle. Before the dam was built every inch of the shoreline had to be surveyed. The surveys were done from both river and rim. And those survey crews followed the miners and Anasazi that came before them.

You might find this useful when researching Lake Powell, it contains some good stuff.

http://silgro.com/LakePowell-hikes.htm#DougsSoundCave

It's from a hiker, but adventurous hikers know where the slots that stopped them are located and normally have good intel. :nod:

x2, what he said. I would even volunteer to help you explore these bad boys and post trip reports, but they are a little out of my range. I only venture that far when I know it's a damn good canyon and worth the 4.5 hour drive. :2thumbs:

[juaquin.phoenix]

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[Deathcricket]

Seriously, what are you talking about? Are you saying because some boater saw them or some surveyor walked past them, they are fair game for any 'Goblin's lair' beginner with google maps? This outlook has and will get someone killed or injured. Don't diminish the work of others for your own reasons!

JP

Quiet down noobie. :haha:

[Iceaxe]

Seriously, what are you talking about? Are you saying because some boater saw them or some surveyor walked past them, they are fair game for any 'Goblin's lair' beginner with google maps? This outlook has and will get someone killed or injured. Don't diminish the work of others for your own reasons!

Pleaseeezzzz :roll:

Slot Machine is doing this the correct way.... he is digging out his maps and looking for potential. After he finds potential he is asking around to try and gather more information. I assume his next steps will be to take what he learns and explore the slots.... that is the same path taken by those who explored the slots before him. Just because someone was first gives them no special privilege.

And since Slot Machine has been doing his research in a calculated and methodical way I assume he will use the same approach to exploring the slots and go loaded for bear.

Now comes the dilemma for those who have beta on the routes…. Do you share the beta with Slot Machine, and in doing so share your ethics and ask him to respect those ethics, or do you let him explore on his own, bolt if he desires, and brand the routes with his own ethics?

:stud:

[ratagonia]

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[ratagonia]

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[Iceaxe]

Shane makes the point on Lake Powell that.....

Actually that was NOT my point at all.... my point was either share your beta with Slot Machine and entangle him in any secret handshakes you wish and he agrees too..... or.... get the hell out of his way and stop trying to hinder his right to enjoy the slots as he sees fit.

:cool2:

[jner]

Bogley is generally a welcoming place, but certain members go out of their way to make sure everyone knows they are the biggest a** in the room.

Tom :moses:

I must ask, is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? I have always wondered what the "A" in the elusive "A Team" stood for. Thank you for clarifying Tom. By the way, I can sell you a rope to use after your initiation into our secret organization..........

I am with Ice, canyons are for all to enjoy. Tom, at some point your secretive nature regarding these canyons will blow up in your face and the rest of us will have a difficult time holding back the "I told you so....."

Slot Machine, please share your trip report after exploration. You should not be required to provide a secret handshake for admission into the A** hole team.....

[Deathcricket]

Can a mod trace the IP of Juaquin and Patagonia, I bet they are the same. Tom's alter ego. No way there are two elitest "A-team" pricks raging in the same thread. :lol8:

Edit: Wait another new guy! Now who is this? *I swear it's not me*

[ratagonia]

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[ratagonia]

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[MSchasch]

Super cool trolls in this thread!

There are plenty of beta-ed canyons out there. Its nice to have some places that are still free of publication.

Exploration is awesome too! Just make sure you are going in there with a very broad range of skill-sets and ready for things that make you want to press the panic button on your spot. Not all canyons are as human friendly as the Irish ones.

[jman]

Can a mod trace the IP of Juaquin and Patagonia, I bet they are the same. Tom's alter ego. No way there are two elitest "A-team" pricks raging in the same thread. :lol8:

Edit: Wait another new guy! Now who is this? *I swear it's not me*

DC, I generally like you, generally most of the time. However, please refrain from name-calling at newbs.

Bogley is a welcoming place, please use more discipline next time. Angry Dialogue, contentious-dialogue, etc. is fine - - - - - name-calling is NOT okay. Unless its in the Rubbish Bin.

[jner]

I have no idea what you are talking about, Mr. Ner.

If you review what I actually SAID, I in no way am creating obstacles in front of Mr. Machine, cyber or otherwise. I am merely suggesting that he be careful, because the canyons are hard, and that he respect the natural environment, because we have demonstrated here that the canyons can be done many times with only very little impact. I have offered to share information with him, if he wishes.

MY secretive nature??? :roflol: Ah, the illusions of youth. :facepalm1: I am the original sharer of canyon beta, sir. But I don't consider it desirable to share every canyon I know. I fail to see a moral compunction to do so. Others may chose a different path. While the canyons belong to us all (mostly), my information belongs to me, and it is my choice to share or not.

Tom

It's not a matter of willingness to share, it is the way in which the topic is stammered around. Words like "solemn agreement" certainly allude to a sense of secrecy....

[ratagonia]

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[CarpeyBiggs]

Seriously? Another one of these threads? Jesus, bogley is damn near intolerable nowadays.

The guy asks for help, Tom offers him suggestions, and now we get to listen to DC rage about some exclusive A team? give me a friggin' break.

I swear, this board is just a bunch of entitled pansies nowadays, and DeathCricket, you are the absolute worst of all them. Seriously annoying as hell. Do you really think everything should just be given to you, just because you asked for it? If you want it, go find it, quit blaming everyone else for not publishing it.

What, you've done 4 canyons now near zion, and all of the sudden you get to rage about the "A TEAM" who is actually out looking for unpublished stuff? And then you start crying when they don't reveal it to you?

I thought you were a freakin' libertarian? You sound like the very thing you decry about "socialists." It's like you want a canyoneering system where everyone gets the rewards of other peoples hard work.

Furthermore, this guy asked for help, and tom is GIVING it to him. What the hell are you acting pissed off for? He can accept the help, or not, but enough with this exclusive "secret club" bullshit. Yeah, there's hundreds of unpublished canyons out there. Big deal. Quit acting like an entitled little pansy. If you want them, go f#cking find them.

NO ONE IS UNDER ANY OBLIGATION TO SHARE ANY BETA WITH ANYONE, UNLESS THEY WANT TO.

end of story.

what is so hard to understand about that?

[ratagonia]

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[Deathcricket]

DC, I generally like you, generally most of the time. However, please refrain from name-calling at newbs.

Bogley is a welcoming place, please use more discipline next time. Angry Dialogue, contentious-dialogue, etc. is fine - - - - - name-calling is NOT okay. Unless its in the Rubbish Bin.

You're right, I apologize. Sorry
juaquin.phoenix (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?20631-juaquin.phoenix)
:2thumbs:

Hopefully you still feel welcome, that was not my intention. I just assumed you were Tom trying to keep "the man" down.

[Iceaxe]

I'm getting in his way? Huh. Really? How?

That comment was aimed at JP chastising Slot Machine for posting a map on the web asking for help.... I didn't mean to catch you in the crossfire.

There is nothing wrong with asking.

[Iceaxe]

When people join us for a Show, Don't Tell canyon, there is an agreement of secrecy.

Now I'm confused... :ne_nau:

Crappy just finished ranting at us pansies there was no secret club or group and that we were all full of "bullshit".

[ratagonia]

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[ratagonia]

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[juaquin.phoenix]

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[Deathcricket]

DC, you seem to know a great deal about computers. But I would recommend the moderator simply compare our signup IP's in their database. Of course, I might have signed up using TOR, in which case my IP would show up as one of several million proxy servers IP's. And since I am a law abiding TOR user, you might have better success finding 'Anonymous'.

:lol8:
The simple fact that you wrote these sentences proves you are not Tom. He's from an older generation, though very internet savvy, but not that on that level. Heck, I'm not even on that level, masking my IP is beyond me. I can set up a couple VPN connections and that's it, although I can trace/ping back to a couple places if I need to, but I specialize in VOIP traffic data packets. Anyways, whatever about that, my main point was I wanted to again apologize, that was a douche move of me to think you were him. Please feel very welcome, post a couple trip reports, etc. I'm soo embarrassed hating on an exclusive secret handshake elitest club and I shunned a newbie, therefore becoming part of my own elitest club hypocrite in the process. Haa! Although it was kinda fun to watch Carpey explode I guess. *shrug*

[jner]

Nevermind.....

[Iceaxe]

I only venture that far when I know it's a damn good canyon and worth the 4.5 hour drive. :2thumbs:

At least now you can be certain the slots are worth the effort.... otherwise they would not have caused such a ruckus.... that in itself is useful beta.

:cool2:

[Deathcricket]

At least now you can be certain the slots are worth the effort.... otherwise they would not have caused such a ruckus.... that in itself is useful beta.

:cool2:

Why get excited about a lame canyon? Indeed!!!! I like the way you think. :five:

[CarpeyBiggs]

you actually might be surprised how mediocre they are. but here's a good idea. you two canyon trolls show up, and we'll do the canyons together.

i'm good before mid-march, or after mid-april. you call the dates.

bring donny dass too. i've been dying to meet that guy.

[Iceaxe]

And why would we want to do the canyons with you? If ya haven't noticed you can be kind of an ass. My partners tend to be a little more fun and happy-go-lucky.

:cool2:

[penmartens]

I believe a safety issue may have cropped up in this thread. Safety always trumps the secret handshake. None of the labeling of canyons that Slot Machine made is correct. The only beta put forward that is accurate is Ryan's beta from his site. It could be extremely risky to drop into one of these canyons having gathered rope lengths and obstacles from one canyon and applying them to another.
Exploratories are fun, exciting, terrifying, and rewarding. Enjoy the discovery.
Penny

[MSchasch]

Dan could you at least charge them some money if you take them? Say.....$35 to be in on this little circle of jerks?

[Iceaxe]

:2thumbs: Thanks Penny

[Scott P]

As per two different old canyons group discussions:

People who share beta do so because of ego.:haha:

People who don't share beta do so because of ego.:haha:

[trackrunner]

People who share beta do so because of ego.:haha:

People who don't share beta do so because of ego.:haha:

:lol8::2thumbs: QFE

[Cirrus2000]

As per two different old canyons group discussions:

People who share beta do so because of ego.:haha:

People who don't share beta do so because of ego.:haha:

:lol8:

[Iceaxe]

As per two different old canyons group discussions:

People who share beta do so because of ego.:haha:

People who don't share beta do so because of ego.:haha:

:lol8: :2thumbs:

[goofball]

rereading post i am not sure where you start counting canyons.

50924

[Slot Machine]

Let's take a practical look into the future-

Inevitably, beta will be posted somewhere on the internet for every known
canyon.

Fighting the expansion of canyoneering knowledge is futile. It is easy to
empathize with some of the motives behind keeping some of this knowledge secret,
but in the end those motives are irrelevant. Someone will eventually discover
your favorite canyons and share that information with others.

If you don't want to share- no big deal. If you want me so stop asking questions
and posting what I observe or discover... too bad. Bogley seems- or maybe
seemed, like the ideal place to ask questions and share information.

I quickly realized today that any communications regarding this thread will be
most productive if they remain public. I mean no disrespect to the people who
have been trying to contact me. I'm simply not interested in having private
conversations about beta.

Now back to my original questions:

To me it doesn't much matter what the names of the canyons are. I'll just call
canyons #1-#6 by their number for now. I'm pretty sure my guesses are close to
what they are normally called.

What are their canyon ratings?

Max rap lengths?

Any gnarly monster potholes?

Wetsuits required?

Is anybody interested in doing any of these mysterious canyons? That is, anybody
that is capable but not angry?

[ratagonia]

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[goofball]

[QUOTE=Iceaxe;485833]Pleaseeezzzz :roll:

Slot Machine is doing this the correct way.... he is digging out his maps and looking for potential. After he finds potential he is asking around to try and gather more information. I assume his next steps will be to take what he learns and explore the slots.... that is the same path taken by those who explored the slots before him. Just because someone was first gives them no special privilege.

And since Slot Machine has been doing his research in a calculated and methodical way I assume he will use the same approach to exploring the slots and go loaded for bear.

Now comes the dilemma for those who have beta on the routes

[goofball]

Let's take a practical look into the future-

Inevitably, beta will be posted somewhere on the internet for every known canyon.

Fighting the expansion of canyoneering knowledge is futile. It is easy to empathize with some of the motives behind keeping some of this knowledge secret, but in the end those motives are irrelevant. Someone will eventually discover your favorite canyons and share that information with others.

If you don't want to share- no big deal. If you want me so stop asking questions and posting what I observe or discover... too bad. Bogley seems- or maybe seemed, like the ideal place to ask questions and share information.

I quickly realized today that any communications regarding this thread will be most productive if they remain public. I mean no disrespect to the people who have been trying to contact me. I'm simply not interested in having private conversations about beta.

Now back to my original questions:

To me it doesn't much matter what the names of the canyons are. I'll just call canyons #1-#6 by their number for now. I'm pretty sure my guesses are close to what they are normally called.

What are their canyon ratings?

Max rap lengths?

Any gnarly monster potholes?

Wetsuits required?

Is anybody interested in doing any of these mysterious canyons? That is, anybody that is capable but not angry?

i do not remember much from dave's not dead, been quite a few years. i do remember sticking the rope at teh last rap, which is in 3 tiers i believe. like 150' total length ? do not remember anchor situation, no potholes at all when i went thru, nor water, but for a pool at bottom of final rap which i barely avoided slipping into.

50925

50926

50927

50928

[ratagonia]

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[The Good Cop]

Jason/Goof, I apologize if I misunderstand some of what & who you are referring to, but I felt I needed to chime in. I'm not looking to jump into the middle of this debate, but your last post refers to people for whom I must speak up. I had the pleasure of meeting & doing some canyons with some of the folks I believe you are referring to. I can tall you that all that I did was email & ask if they'd be willing to have me join them. I explained that I had done the canyon before to allay any legitimate concerns regarding me being over my head (it was Imlay). I was cheerfully invited, cheerfully greeted, and asked on one of those so-called "secret-handshake" canyons the next day. What was asked of me by them? Be a part of the team & have fun. That was it. They were open & welcoming, I experienced the opposite of what you described there with terms like "elitist". In addition, they have continued to be good friends who I feel fortunate to have met.

Regardless of what experiences you have had I felt that relating my experience was necessary; just because folks don't talk to everyone about everything they know does not make them elitist. In addition, I'm pretty sure that they put in a fair amount of time & effort to safely doing these canyons about which they had no previous beta (great post Penny, thanks!), and that option is openly available to everyone willing to take the time & effort.

Cheers,

Wayne Burns, professional brewer & unprofessional hiker-with-ropes

[Slot Machine]

really, Really, REALLY weird, squabbling over holes in the ground and taking it so personally.

The single best line of this entire bizarre thread. Thank you! :nod:

And thanks for the beta and good photos.

51483
So here's what I am guessing now:

1. possibly just a wash with a very short slot at the top, probably not worth
the trouble.
2. Dave's not Dead
3. Inferno
4. Paradiso
5. Purgatory
6. another wash

[spinesnaper]

Guys

Interesting thread. So many great canyons, so little time.

That damn Google. They're ruining every thing.

Ken

[Scott Card]

Its been awhile since I have been there. I remember the handshake but was it right or left handed and did we do the secret dance before or after the handshake? :fitz:


:haha:

[jb]

I mean no disrespect to the people who have been trying to contact me. I'm simply not interested in having private conversations about beta. I also mean no disrespect to anyone. But with this attitude, you might be depriving yourself of a rewarding set of experiences. Several years ago, I first joined one of these online sandboxes looking for info, trying to connect the dots on a canyon whose info was not yet completely explicit. I might have even been, without any justification whatsoever, a trifle demanding. The reaction from the so-called "elitists?" A gracious response. Personal time out from a busy schedule. Private conversations about the beta in question. And a variety of canyon days with people and places I never would have seen on my own. Every one of these people seemed like a great friend to have. But with friends, you can't dictate terms to them when asking for help. Cheers, and best of luck.

[yetigonecrazy]

Jason/Goof, I apologize if I misunderstand some of what & who you are referring to, but I felt I needed to chime in. I'm not looking to jump into the middle of this debate, but your last post refers to people for whom I must speak up. I had the pleasure of meeting & doing some canyons with some of the folks I believe you are referring to. I can tall you that all that I did was email & ask if they'd be willing to have me join them. I explained that I had done the canyon before to allay any legitimate concerns regarding me being over my head (it was Imlay). I was cheerfully invited, cheerfully greeted, and asked on one of those so-called "secret-handshake" canyons the next day. What was asked of me by them? Be a part of the team & have fun. That was it. They were open & welcoming, I experienced the opposite of what you described there with terms like "elitist". In addition, they have continued to be good friends who I feel fortunate to have met.

Regardless of what experiences you have had I felt that relating my experience was necessary; just because folks don't talk to everyone about everything they know does not make them elitist. In addition, I'm pretty sure that they put in a fair amount of time & effort to safely doing these canyons about which they had no previous beta (great post Penny, thanks!), and that option is openly available to everyone willing to take the time & effort.

Cheers,

Wayne Burns, professional brewer & unprofessional hiker-with-ropes

They may be the cheeriest group of people this side of the Mississippi- but if they are withholding information because they are taking the "this is my private slot" kind of mentality, then friendliness has nothing to do with it. They're still being elitists. Any time you deny information to people that ask, just because they didn't "go through proper channels" or "earn it", you are being an elitist.

And yes, that means Tom, Shane, and everybody else who has a website with beta are elitists in ways, because they do withhold information on certain canyons. BUT. They have also more than made up for it by offering beta on many other canyons. When you are a dick about ALL your beta, and don't offer anything to anyone, thats when you stay an elitist d-bag.

Is it right? Yes, and no. Sure, we all want to protect out special areas. We all want to feel that feeling of seclusion, and isolation when we go out, and telling others makes us feel like we are losing that. That's what the ultimate goal is, isn't it? Nobody really wants to go out into a LWH style circus environment.

But let's talk about the safety of it for a moment: what if someone was to ask about a canyon, and get nothing but a few whispers of beta about it? Let's say that person then says "screw it, I'm interested", but because he/she has NO clue what's in the canyon, and maybe brings not enough/the wrong gear and ends up trapped, hurt, or worse, killed, because certain people were being stingy with beta. How would you feel if someone died in your "hidden" canyon, all because you were being a jackass about releasing info? Yes, most of the blame lies on the person who went in, but if someone died, because you simply didn't want to drop even a little bit of beta, and you are perfectly fine with it, then you are one cold motherf&#%er.

Not releasing beta is not going to keep people out. People are always going to explore, and isn't it safer to everyone, and better to the "image" of the canyoneering population as a group, to prevent more injuries/accidents/deaths? To keep more people out of the news for rescues/deaths?

I understand completely the mentality here- it's the same with boating and new creeks, and skiing and great sledding zones. We all want them, and we all want to hide them too. It's human nature. Hide what you have. But you have to decide at some point where the line is drawn between hiding canyons for your own selfish desires, and offering enough beta to prevent someone from hurting themselves.

You don't have to post a step by step guide to a canyon when someone asks. If it's sensitive or special to you, then just give enough for people to be safe. Just say, "you will need a xx Meter Rope, expect xx rappels. Some water. Enjoy". That's more than enough right there. It will still require the asking party to explore and use their heads and skills, but even just a little word of mouth can go a long way towards preventing catastrophes.

In the end, it doesn't matter how over protective you get over a canyon or canyon system. With the ever increasing popularity in canyoneering, and the increasing skill set of the average user, there is going to be nothing but a steady increase in the number of people doing it. This is not the Escalante of the 70's and 80's. This is not Zion 30 years ago. If you cant handle people being in "your canyons", then get a new hobby and forget about this one, because it's not going to change. If you can't handle seeing people in your "hidden zones", then get out. Because nothing will stop people from exploring, and it's not like you can cap the number of canyoneers out there.

Exploring is what you did when you first found those canyons, isn't it? Surely you were told at least a little whisper on where to go look. So why do you get to explore and find these places, and have a great experience, but others don't? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.....

As a budding canyoneer, I often times come across many questions about canyons I've seen in person, on GE, or on the map. Sometimes my questions are answered, and sometimes they aren't. It's part of playing the game. In the end, when people want to be d-bags, then so be it, and I will just go find another canyon to explore, because there are so many places in the wilds of the Colorado Plateau that you can always find what you need. I don't get mad when people deny me beta. I just file them under the category of "Jerk-offs I will never associate with", and then move on. I'm not going to berate you on being a d-bag, obviously you are fine with your actions and that's all there is.

A good example I have is not a canyon, but an area you may have heard of called "The Wave". I'm sure there's a small, crusty population out there that daily bemoans and begrudges Mike Kelsey and others from bringing their "special zone" to the public's attention. However, with all the beta out there, and the thousands of people that have been there, and the millions of pictures, we [my family and I] went out there one day, and you know what? We had the place to ourselves, and it was INCREDIBLE. My appreciation wasn't diminished because it was a "known" spot. My experience wasn't altered because I knew people had been there before. In fact, with the help of a map, and some basic directions, we were able to go right to it, and not have to spend precious daylight wandering around looking for it. We knew to look for other neat features nearby too. In the end, the large amount of beta actually helped me enjoy the day more.

Shane, Tom, etc- Thank you guys SO MUCH for everything you do to provide beta to the group. Nobody has asked you to do it, and every time I look at one of your websites, I'm stoked that you have offered what you have. I know there are canyons you don't list, and that is your choice, but like I said, you more than make up for it with your willingness to distribute beta on others. You choose your battles, and 98% of the time you are friendly and approachable, and that more than makes up for anything you withhold, at least to me.

Slot Machine- don't let a few jerks get you down. Keep up your explorations, and keep that positivity coming. It's people like yourself that redeem canyoneers as a whole, from the d-bags who want to keep everything on lockdown.

I know people will rag on me for jumping in and not being a "veteran canyoneer". But bottom line, I've been through this debate many times in my life. Just exchange "slot canyon" for "steep creek" or "pillow lines" or "waterfall" or "sled zone". It's all the same. And in the end, just MY opinions. Nobody elses. In the end, I will tell ANYbody ANYthing about ANYwhere I have been. Why? Well that's just it. Not "why". But, "Why not?" My pride and ego are not going to prevent me from potentially keeping people safe, or from showing somebody something incredible. But that's just me, and I only speak for one.

-End of Line-

[Slot Machine]

But with this attitude, you might be depriving yourself of a rewarding set of experiences.

I do realize this, maybe I should clarify-

If you are trying to contact me to go for a hike I'm VERY interested in talking
privately. I understand that hiking with certain people in the canyoneering
community can be very fun and rewarding, however I refuse to behave in any
strange secretive way in order to share their company.

If you want to work out a deal to stop the progress of this thread I'm not
interested at all.

If you want to send beta privately to be posted on this thread, I will be happy
to do so without revealing your identity.

[Slot Machine]

In the end, I will tell ANYbody ANYthing about ANYwhere I have been. Why? Well that's just it. Not "why". But, "Why not?" My pride and ego are not going to prevent me from potentially keeping people safe, or from showing somebody something incredible.

Excellent point. Awesome post. Thanks. :2thumbs:

[shaggy125]

I think the "elitest" attitude is in many cases a myth, assumed by people who spend too much time on internet forums assuming the intentions of canyoneers they've never met or interacted with face to face. Generally everyone I've met doing canyons are open and are all about sharing places they hold dear. I think it's just a matter of differing opinions on what the best way to share canyons is, many peoples main motivation being to keep canyons from being "destroyed," not because they want it for their personal playground (what ways a canyon can be destroyed is also a topic where many different opinions abound, some consider placing a bolt destruction, others feel it's ok to carry a g-pick and hammer out hook holes to get past obstacles).

In my observation, there are three main trains of thought on sharing beta. The first is to share beta in an organized manner using ethics set aside by the canyoneering community so the author of the beta can plead with all using their info to follow those ethics (Shane's site and Tom's Zion guidebook are good examples of this approach). The second I've seen is the show don't tell idea. Basically I can take you to a place I found, you can take your friends, just please don't broadband the beta on an internet forum so every redneck and Mike Kelsey follower can read it and start chipping g-pick holes etc... If I show you the canyon can easily be done without bolts, holes, or significant rope grooves... when you come back you will show your friends the same. This idea is not a matter of keeping the canyons your own personal secret spot, it's viewed as a way of showing everyone who goes into them that they can be done safely with minimal impact to the environment. The third idea is to post beta about every canyon everywhere because it is our land and we all have the right to recreate in it. I believe many sharers of beta have thought this at one point but after seeing the damage that has been done in some canyons by a FEW irresponsible souls (I really believe this is an issue of a few messing it up for everyone), their desire to throw beta out on the internet for ANYONE to read drops significantly... some would possibly even consider it irresponsible to do so.

Contrary to the belief of some, there is no secret handshake, no special vodoo, no initiation, just send your fellow canyoneers emails asking to get invited on trips and believe it or not, you'll probably get invited, have a great time, and meet lots of new friends. Go to freezefest and you'll meet many of these elitists and probably become friends with them and get invited on lots of future trips. You'll also probably expand your skill set as many of these elitists are very willing to teach new and awesome ways to get past obstacles that you and your group of friends never thought of. I never saw where Tom was discouraging Slot Machine to do these canyons, he just warned that aside from Dave's not Dead, they are not so easy and doesn't want anyone getting in over their heads. Tom also pleaded that he keep them as clean as possible, bolts and G-picks aren't needed in them, but there are places where one might think they are. He's just looking out for him and the canyons.

[spinesnaper]

In surgery we have a number of folksy expressions that are little nuggets of professional wisdom like: Better is the enemy of good. One of my favorites is: Painful lessons often times relearned. I think this latter saying is applicable to this thread.

From the outside, share but don't tell canyons may seem like elitist BS. However this is ad hoc solution to what happens when natural resources are loved to death. The lesson of Edward Abbey's Desert Solitude is that developing natural lands by paving roads and calling them a National Park is the surest way for them to be loved to death. Do we have any doubt that paving the Hole in the Rock Road and making the Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument a National Park would wreck the very character that makes it such a special place. No we don't even as this eventuality will be inevitable. If you publicize a canyon on the internet, you should not be surprised to see rope grooves, bolt gardens, and other canyoneering detritus when you return.

Personally, I am still busy getting to the awesome and painfully well described canyons out there. I for one am not ready to throw myself down a canyon for which I have no information. As a personal choice, I do not believe that would be a safe one for me. At the same time, I embrace that it is still possible for this type of exploration by intrepid souls. Does that mean I am missing out on amazing canyons that are on the "secret handshake" list. Probably.

I think it is commendable that the very individuals responsible for popularizing canyoneering also recognize that the pristine experience they had in the canyons they popularized is no longer the same and are taking steps to limit or at least slow the process that is inherent when canyons are widely publicized.

Hypocrisy? Some might view it so. Respectfully, I would argue that rather than hypocrisy, it represents insight and wisdom. Wisdom comes when you realize that what you have done in the past is not working so you try something else.

Rather than pounding their chest about how great their canyoneering prowess, these individuals are taking personal responsibility to help preserve some of the last pristine places on the Colorado Plateau. I for one would rather see this type of ad hoc solution than one that involves standing in a lottery with a 100 people to see it I will get a permit to hike Neon canyon.

Ken

[JennyMae]

At this moment this thread has been viewed 1,388 times?
Another Canyoneering topic thread; 10 Canyons for Noobies has nearly 9,000 hits.

Listen! This is the voice of your Grandmother: "Where are your manners?"

Come on! People are reading this stuff! Some of you fail to even sign your name to your post(s)! If this diminishing kind of dialogue occurred in a face-to-face setting, there would likely be guns, knives, bloody noses and all would be sent to the principal's office. Your parents would be called, your granny saddened and expulsion warranted in many cases! Who among you would dare to say such nasty things to someone's face?!

Whatever the motives behind the 58 posts in this thread, it saddens me to know that this kind of ingredient now is in the mix I call The Collective Canyoneering Community. Am I totally naive in my thinking here? I joined Bogley in 2009 (as carverbc) and the Yahoo Canyons group a bit later. Since that time I have enjoyed several hundred canyons and met more than that number of canyoneers. I have not met ANYONE that I can match up with the nasty names nor the insulting insinuations that are being tossed around here. Where are all these nasty people hiding? One would think that I would have bumped into at least a few. In the real world (out in the canyons) has anyone met any of these nasty folks? Really? E-mail me in private, I would like know if I'm lucky or naive.

Whether a canyon is found, shared, not shared, put into a guide book, bolted, ghosted, it pales in importance in my personal view to the importance of the lessons we learned in kindergarten or from your Grandparents. Rudeness and bullying need not be a part of a civil discussion.

There has been 2,353 views of the thread American Canyoneers Need Your Input. Even there, a fledgling volunteer attempt to benefit our community is assaulted. Come on folks! Who among us doesn't hold each of the folks on the iBod there in very high esteem? Come on! WHO?

Some folks have done a stellar job of posting varied view points with respect. Many have tried to moderate the tone when it got nasty. I applaud those efforts. This post follows two more eloquently put than mine.

The others? I invite you; next time you speak to your Mom or Grandparent, maybe your 3-year-old, or your wife/husband listen to the tone in your voice. I suspect that when/if I meet you out in the canyons, I'll hear that same tone. I look forward to that.

Respectfully,
Jenny (Luella and Edna's Grand daughter)

[spinesnaper]

Jenny

I think it is easy to get a little hot under the collar when posting on such a forum. Personally I think that it is instructive to understand what the hot button issues are. But then I am not usually the subject of pointed attacks.:angryfire: For our community leaders, they of necessity will take stances that will draw some heat. That does not necessarily mean that contrary posters are bad people ( insensitive is in the eye of the beholder). Anonymity does probably contribute to this. The community generally is able to reel in this type of behavior. I for one found the whole recent ACA thread a very painful read yet that was obviously a very important venue for venting.

Ken

[The Good Cop]

They may be the cheeriest group of people this side of the Mississippi- but if they are withholding information because they are taking the "this is my private slot" kind of mentality, then friendliness has nothing to do with it. They're still being elitists. Any time you deny information to people that ask, just because they didn't "go through proper channels" or "earn it", you are being an elitist.

And yes, that means Tom, Shane, and everybody else who has a website with beta are elitists in ways, because they do withhold information on certain canyons. BUT. They have also more than made up for it by offering beta on many other canyons. When you are a dick about ALL your beta, and don't offer anything to anyone, thats when you stay an elitist d-bag.

Is it right? Yes, and no. Sure, we all want to protect out special areas. We all want to feel that feeling of seclusion, and isolation when we go out, and telling others makes us feel like we are losing that. That's what the ultimate goal is, isn't it? Nobody really wants to go out into a LWH style circus environment.

But let's talk about the safety of it for a moment: what if someone was to ask about a canyon, and get nothing but a few whispers of beta about it? Let's say that person then says "screw it, I'm interested", but because he/she has NO clue what's in the canyon, and maybe brings not enough/the wrong gear and ends up trapped, hurt, or worse, killed, because certain people were being stingy with beta. How would you feel if someone died in your "hidden" canyon, all because you were being a jackass about releasing info? Yes, most of the blame lies on the person who went in, but if someone died, because you simply didn't want to drop even a little bit of beta, and you are perfectly fine with it, then you are one cold motherf&#%er.

Not releasing beta is not going to keep people out. People are always going to explore, and isn't it safer to everyone, and better to the "image" of the canyoneering population as a group, to prevent more injuries/accidents/deaths? To keep more people out of the news for rescues/deaths?

I understand completely the mentality here- it's the same with boating and new creeks, and skiing and great sledding zones. We all want them, and we all want to hide them too. It's human nature. Hide what you have. But you have to decide at some point where the line is drawn between hiding canyons for your own selfish desires, and offering enough beta to prevent someone from hurting themselves.

You don't have to post a step by step guide to a canyon when someone asks. If it's sensitive or special to you, then just give enough for people to be safe. Just say, "you will need a xx Meter Rope, expect xx rappels. Some water. Enjoy". That's more than enough right there. It will still require the asking party to explore and use their heads and skills, but even just a little word of mouth can go a long way towards preventing catastrophes.

In the end, it doesn't matter how over protective you get over a canyon or canyon system. With the ever increasing popularity in canyoneering, and the increasing skill set of the average user, there is going to be nothing but a steady increase in the number of people doing it. This is not the Escalante of the 70's and 80's. This is not Zion 30 years ago. If you cant handle people being in "your canyons", then get a new hobby and forget about this one, because it's not going to change. If you can't handle seeing people in your "hidden zones", then get out. Because nothing will stop people from exploring, and it's not like you can cap the number of canyoneers out there.

Exploring is what you did when you first found those canyons, isn't it? Surely you were told at least a little whisper on where to go look. So why do you get to explore and find these places, and have a great experience, but others don't? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.....

As a budding canyoneer, I often times come across many questions about canyons I've seen in person, on GE, or on the map. Sometimes my questions are answered, and sometimes they aren't. It's part of playing the game. In the end, when people want to be d-bags, then so be it, and I will just go find another canyon to explore, because there are so many places in the wilds of the Colorado Plateau that you can always find what you need. I don't get mad when people deny me beta. I just file them under the category of "Jerk-offs I will never associate with", and then move on. I'm not going to berate you on being a d-bag, obviously you are fine with your actions and that's all there is.

A good example I have is not a canyon, but an area you may have heard of called "The Wave". I'm sure there's a small, crusty population out there that daily bemoans and begrudges Mike Kelsey and others from bringing their "special zone" to the public's attention. However, with all the beta out there, and the thousands of people that have been there, and the millions of pictures, we [my family and I] went out there one day, and you know what? We had the place to ourselves, and it was INCREDIBLE. My appreciation wasn't diminished because it was a "known" spot. My experience wasn't altered because I knew people had been there before. In fact, with the help of a map, and some basic directions, we were able to go right to it, and not have to spend precious daylight wandering around looking for it. We knew to look for other neat features nearby too. In the end, the large amount of beta actually helped me enjoy the day more.

Shane, Tom, etc- Thank you guys SO MUCH for everything you do to provide beta to the group. Nobody has asked you to do it, and every time I look at one of your websites, I'm stoked that you have offered what you have. I know there are canyons you don't list, and that is your choice, but like I said, you more than make up for it with your willingness to distribute beta on others. You choose your battles, and 98% of the time you are friendly and approachable, and that more than makes up for anything you withhold, at least to me.

Slot Machine- don't let a few jerks get you down. Keep up your explorations, and keep that positivity coming. It's people like yourself that redeem canyoneers as a whole, from the d-bags who want to keep everything on lockdown.

I know people will rag on me for jumping in and not being a "veteran canyoneer". But bottom line, I've been through this debate many times in my life. Just exchange "slot canyon" for "steep creek" or "pillow lines" or "waterfall" or "sled zone". It's all the same. And in the end, just MY opinions. Nobody elses. In the end, I will tell ANYbody ANYthing about ANYwhere I have been. Why? Well that's just it. Not "why". But, "Why not?" My pride and ego are not going to prevent me from potentially keeping people safe, or from showing somebody something incredible. But that's just me, and I only speak for one.

Support to Eric/Shaggy, Ken & my buddy Jenny Mae, well stated.

Yeti, I'm not sure if perhaps something was read into my comments which I did not mean to say, but it seems to me there's a key concern with how you make/describe your position. You do not allow for the possibility that someone choosing to do something different from that which you prefer, might possibly have any legitimate reason for doing so. Personally, I always try to remember that I'm increasing my understanding of people & the world every day, so when someone holds a viewpoint or takes an action different from what makes sense to me that it's possible they may have a legitimate reason, one that I just don't yet understand. That's my approach anyway. Tom had an excellent comment recently somewhere regarding the phrase "assume good faith". Yes, yes, not in the face of clearly demonstrated vandalism/bad faith, but under any normal circumstances. Eric/Shaggy perfectly described, in my understanding, the sort of approach which is used by folks who I know who engage in "show don't tell" canyoneering.

In addition, while first & foremost, anyone getting injured or killed anywhere, anyway is the top concern with all others being secondary, I believe the case you make regarding the possibility for people getting injured to have feeble (at best) legitimacy. Look at the scenario you yourself described: someone takes limited pieces of beta & goes into an unknown canyon equipped based on that limited beta, resulting in injury or death. Any way one tries, I can only understand that as wholly on the shoulders of the person making the choice (unless you want to ascribe intentional deception upon the limited beta source). In addition, anyone going into unknown canyons without doing the time & legwork to research them to a "safe" degree or at least reasonably safe degree (ha, I know, gray areas) is just begging for an epic, and I find it hard to imagine that you would also not find their actions sad, unfortunate, to-have-been-mitigated-in-any-way-possible, but ultimately their own fault for making some obviously unwise decisions in an unknown area. Seriously man: whoever the folks are who do have the beta went in without any beta at all; how did they avoid injury or death? I believe it was through a lot of time, attention, research, experience, prudence, etc, etc...how would they be described if they had gotten injured or killed? I love having people do my research for me too, but I don't feel it's reasonable to vilify them for saying something like, "well, if you don't want to come along with me on my terms, that's fair but you have to do your own research in that case."

Another funny note & one that speaks to common ground with you & I: you mention enthusiastic thanks to 2 people, Tom & Shane. One of them I have unfortunately not yet had the pleasure of meeting, though I have happily and thankfully used his website & been a circle of friends guy (Shane)...and the other, Tom, is one of those friends of mine for whom I am speaking up.

Cheers,

Wayne

[Scott Card]

I once was only slightly annoyed with the "withholding" of information. So I went to Freezefest. I wanted to meet these elusive canyoneers. I found I liked them. I found they had good reasons for not publishing beta which to me was reasonable. There, I learned of canyons I have never heard of and which I probably couldn't find again. Easiest and most pleasant way to learn the "secret" canyons is to do them with someone willing to take you. I find there IS a difference between publishing and sharing. I haven't had anyone yet not willing to share when I have asked. Yes, there may be some terms and conditions, but I guess I for one am not offended by that. And I for one will respect the requests of those willing to show me a great day by not publishing the beta.

[Iceaxe]

Easiest and most pleasant way to learn the "secret" canyons is to do them with someone willing to take you.

That is certainly an "easy" way to learn the "secret" canyons. But for the most part I hate to be "guided", which is a major part of "show don't tell canyoneering". That is not an enjoyable experience to me. Navigating, figuring out the problems, yada, yada, is what I enjoy.

As for fests... the biggest draw back to any of the fests, at least for me, is I'm not a big fan of the herd, siege, over power and rape approach to canyoneering that is often part of a fest. But that is just a personal preference. I do enjoy the people and camaraderie.



I think the "elitest" attitude is in many cases a myth,

From my observations.... The elitist attitude is not a myth but comes from the "STFU, and take your wanna be Goblin Lair noob ass home, this is an area for real canyoneers" type posts.

:cool2:

[Slot Machine]

From my observations.... The elitist attitude is not a myth but comes from the "STFU, and take your wanna be Goblin Lair noob ass home, this is an area for real canyoneers" type posts.

:cool2:

C'mon Mr Axe, this thread was going in a constructive and civil direction.

I thought Shaggy's post was thoughtful. I don't agree 100% with his statements,
but they are well thought out and I appreciate the input.

Back on topic please: It is becoming obvious that nobody wants to simply share
info on the Dante's. I am wildly curious as to what is there, and will likely
just burn the calories to find out.

...just send your fellow canyoneers emails asking to get invited on trips and
believe it or not, you'll probably get invited, have a great time, and meet
lots of new friends.

I also find it odd that people just ask to join another person's canyoneering
trip. You wouldn't invite yourself to somebody's house for dinner, would you?

Is anybody here planning a trip to the Dante's? Can I go? Can I go? :haha:

[goofball]

Jason/Goof, I apologize if I misunderstand some of what & who you are referring to, but I felt I needed to chime in. I'm not looking to jump into the middle of this debate, but your last post refers to people for whom I must speak up. I had the pleasure of meeting & doing some canyons with some of the folks I believe you are referring to. I can tall you that all that I did was email & ask if they'd be willing to have me join them. I explained that I had done the canyon before to allay any legitimate concerns regarding me being over my head (it was Imlay). I was cheerfully invited, cheerfully greeted, and asked on one of those so-called "secret-handshake" canyons the next day. What was asked of me by them? Be a part of the team & have fun. That was it. They were open & welcoming, I experienced the opposite of what you described there with terms like "elitist". In addition, they have continued to be good friends who I feel fortunate to have met.

Regardless of what experiences you have had I felt that relating my experience was necessary; just because folks don't talk to everyone about everything they know does not make them elitist. In addition, I'm pretty sure that they put in a fair amount of time & effort to safely doing these canyons about which they had no previous beta (great post Penny, thanks!), and that option is openly available to everyone willing to take the time & effort.

Cheers,

Wayne Burns, professional brewer & unprofessional hiker-with-ropes

just to clarify. my "elitist" remark here was aimed only at what had been stated in teh thread, and not some broad generalization (although i do believe it does have some truth as a broad generalization, i just did not intend it that way here). the comments toward slot machine about "burning bridges" and "broad banding what others have toiled adn sweated for", to me, are elitist remarks. because from the context it does not seem slot machine is personally known to those individuals, and the implication i took from those remarks was that since he is not known by them he has no place speaking about these particular holes in the ground in public. because if he did know them and shared their attitudes he of course would never think of doing such a thing. and that attitude turns some people off. i, and those i play outside with, are in it all for the enjoyment of the experience and do not care one bit who came before or who came after. share or don't share, whatever, but don't be so self aggrandizing to think that your attitude towards these holes in the ground are enlightened truths. its just your opinion.

and to share a little more of the experiences that shape my attitudes, i have enjoyed teh company of teh vast majority of those i have played outside with. but canyoneering in particular, the pool clashes in general with my personality. hopefully no one loses any sleep over not being endeared to all they meet. ram i have spoke too periodically over the years and enjoy his company, and i have enjoyed the company of others but for whatever reason just did not carry on correspondence. i am not a social butterfly and prefer a very small group of friends/acquaintances. mostly because people have always, in general, freaked me out and meds never helped. but others put me at unease. whether it is just the plain fact that personality's differ and we all have preferences for who we choose to spend our time with, or the buzz killing condescension when it seems like every move is being scrutinized. only one way to coil or bag a rope, only one way to rig a sling, only one knot that should be used, don't go first, don't use that rap device, don't down climb that way. its disturbing and anxiety ridden being around that shit. its also weird seeign the "credit hounds". a canyon can only be doen 1st once, and who gives a shit if they are first or last ? does it matter ? everythingn after is only impressive to those who don't know just how much you knew when you went. when i poked around capitol reef and saw the canyons there, i asked ram if he was aware of them since i saw bolts. he was not, and was intrigued. i was asked if it was ok for a group to go in w/out me, since i was teh sharer, not teh sharee. of course, i don't care. then when i saw some pictures of what i called happy dog and babboon laughs, one of the captions was "we found a good one". and i thought, really, you did ? that must have taken a lot of hard work and effort to go in and find those. good for you. and i only bring that up to illustrate how weird that attitude is to me, a hole in the ground as an ego booster. not many people are going to take the time and effort to do more isolated or more challenging canyons, making them public is not some death knell in my opinion. and i think people are not stupid, they are not going to go do no kidding or smiling cricket just because some impetuous fool took the plunge and made it thru, as much as anything, because they would rather make it thru than not make it thru and be dead. fear and anger are powerful motivators.

that kinda rambled i am sure. i should just stay out of stupid shit and enjoy the people and times i experience.

and since my history in the dave's not dead complex has been brought up, it had nothing to do w/ ram, although i did have a GREAT time w/ him and steve (i think, from colorado soemplace ?) and another fella who's name is on the tip of my tongue but i can't get out. we thought we were goign to need some butter to lube him up and get him out at one point. but some years ago i saw these canyons on a topo map and asked a question on the yahoo board. i got a response from someone w/ max rap and general conditions, and that was all i needed/wanted. i think it was one of dave blacks friends from slc that i had met a time or 2 before thru dave.

[SarahT]

When people break agreements with me, I am usually both disappointed, and a little outraged. Nice of her to take the TR down, when called to the mat for breaking the agreement.
Tom :cool2:

Sorry but this irks me. Called to the mat for breaking the agreement? Damn, I'm not the enemy here. When I did these canyons I was indeed told about the rule not to reveal them on the internet... and when I asked for clarification I was told it was OK to post innocent pictures just as long as they didn't point to the location. Being a newbie to the area/sport I had no idea that some of the above ground pictures crossed the line and might be too revealing. It was NEVER my intention to break the damn agreement and I did feel very bad when I was notified by the community that they were upset. The blurb I replaced those pages with is a bit angry and harsh I do admit. At the time I was upset not at all by having to remove the stuff, but by how the notification was delivered to me. I posted those pictures because it was my 1st real canyoneering experience and it was one of the most amazing trips of my life at the time, not because I wanted to sell the canyons out. Sorry. I'm not THAT kind of person and it really bothers me for people to think otherwise.

[spinesnaper]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[ratagonia]

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[ratagonia]

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[Michael_WB]

If a person enquires about a particular canyon, which another considers s/he has no desire to disclose any information, (wanting to keep it for themselves, to preserve its pristine character, to comply with secret agreements, etc.), then why doesn't that second party not just STFU about it? The whole point of a secret is that it remains, er... a secret!

There could be no accusations of elitism if there were no response at all. Such accusations arise from such (occasionally rather smug) answers along the lines of "I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you first", "It's invitation only", "it's so wild and dangerous that it requires skills and experience that I don't believe anyone apart from me and my special friends possess," etc.

Such responses are all a tad provocative (if not a little childish,) so why bother at all? If the motivation really is to keep these places pristine/natural and discourage others from attempting to find them, any of the reactions above would most probably do the opposite. As appears to be the case here ("I am wildly curious as to what is there, and will likely just burn the calories to find out.")

I get the feeling that Scott P's comment about the sharing (or not) of beta being a matter of ego was the most pertinent yet made in this discussion.


Michael WB

[ratagonia]

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[Michael_WB]

Tom,

You dub yourself twice above (sarcastically) as an elitist. I would point out that no direction accusation was made by me in that regard. I merely stated that such comments would not even arise (that meaning towards anyone from anyone, justified or otherwise), if no public mention were made of secret agreements, and that the results could indeed be counter-productive, as might prove to be the case here.

Appropriate? Well, personally I have no problem with anyone deciding not to share (for free) information they consider gained by pioneering toil and sweat. I appreciate it when they do, whether it be for altruistic, enthusiastic, internet egotism, publicity-seeking, etc, reasons. But if they don't, then it's their decision; I certainly don't believe that not sharing beta is a sin, even a venial one :haha:

Conversely my bookshelves are groaning with maps/guidebooks[1] gladly purchased from commercial providers of such information... using income gained by my own toil and sweat. Which is of course only fair as well. :nod:


Michael.
[1] Including yours :cool2:

[Slot Machine]

If I ever said "we", the we included you.

Oh wow :facepalm1:. I'm learning so much about wordsmithmanship.


Maybe Slot Machine should go there?
Oh here?

51481

Maybe I'm busy with a project right now.

Maybe answering my own questions about a map is a little irritating. Maybe
strangers respond better to introductions than abrupt commands (see your pm).
Maybe I'm trying really hard to respect you.

Maybe playing nice is not how you roll. Maybe that approach is not paying you
any dividends in this thread.

Maybe I have a bunch to learn from you. Maybe.

[juaquin.phoenix]

If a person enquires about a particular canyon, which another considers s/he has no desire to disclose any information, (wanting to keep it for themselves, to preserve its pristine character, to comply with secret agreements, etc.), then why doesn't that second party not just STFU about it? The whole point of a secret is that it remains, er... a secret!

There could be no accusations of elitism if there were no response at all. Such accusations arise from such (occasionally rather smug) answers along the lines of "I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you first", "It's invitation only", "it's so wild and dangerous that it requires skills and experience that I don't believe anyone apart from me and my special friends possess," etc.

Such responses are all a tad provocative (if not a little childish,) so why bother at all? If the motivation really is to keep these places pristine/natural and discourage others from attempting to find them, any of the reactions above would most probably do the opposite. As appears to be the case here ("I am wildly curious as to what is there, and will likely just burn the calories to find out.")

I get the feeling that Scott P's comment about the sharing (or not) of beta being a matter of ego was the most pertinent yet made in this discussion.

Michael WB

I think it's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't thing. I agree to a point that not responding works (especially when someone is just trolling for information without any facts), but not always. Ego? Actually I don't prescribe to any elitist excuses about releasing or not releasing beta. I think much of the internet 'me first' generation posts everything because of ego - they want to look greater than they really are; you know, put up a website and they are suddenly something special or some type of expert. On the other hand, I think that the wilderness advocate farce of 'put it on a map, show people, and they will suddenly gain a conscience and protect it' has done tremendous damage. In Canyoneering, the short history shows me that if traffic increases in an area, some type of control will be instituted. So, why do I think canyons shouldn't be broad banded? Agree with me or not, I would say that it's my own personal sense of the greater good, not ego.

[ratagonia]

blank

[ratagonia]

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[SRG]

So I clicked on this link hoping to find out something interesting about Super Amazing Slots and four pages later two hours of my life are gone... damn. :haha:

[Dan-wild]

This was enough entertainment for the rest of my life. I think I'll just quit canyoneering while I'm ahead and just start reading more of these immensely enthralling threads...

I would like to thanks Tom for 'Tom's Canyoneering Guide.' Just the fact that the information exists somewhere as accessible as this gives you more than enough room to withhold any beta you damn well feel like, and way to explore Slot Machine! That's what it's all about right? I saw those pages on the 13ergirl website and I was very curious as well, but I didn't search any further. Thanks for answering some questions.

[jman]

What people don't like the most is (again) posting a TR/pics and going "nah nah nah nah nah nah, I have a cool place that no one else knows about" mentality.

It's like me saying that there are 2 other short, but very good canyons in the same area as Pleaides......whoops, did I let that cat out of the bag.....:twisted:

[Slot Machine]

An enlightening offline discussion convinced me that publishing the beta on the
Dante's (Canyon's #3-#5) might be squandering a rare and valuable thing- a
natural resource that is pristine and mysterious.

I have an idea that might preserve and protect the Dante's and create a new
challenge for canyoneers.

What if the canyoneering community set aside the Dante's as a designated
exploration area? Kind of like a test for well rounded canyoneers that want the
extra challenge of the unknown? Do your own route finding, pack for the worst
etc.

Is this a foolhardy idea putting people at risk? Are these good canyons to
create a virtual exploration environment?

Obviously you can still do "show, don't tell", but it might eliminate the
"secret handshake" tension.

These Dante's ethic's that would be the only shared infromation (a very rough
draft):
The SandTrap works well in these canyons.
You must be a well rounded canyoneer, proficient in leaving no rope gooves.
These canyons are physical and dangerous.
Pack for bear and do your best to leave nothing in the canyon (especially
bolts).
Please don't share your knowledge or photos.

Is this an insane idea? Or maybe a chance to set aside an exploration preserve
(I think Tom coined this term)?

People could post a community expectation for the Dante's on their beta
websites?

Tom? Shane? Everybody? Your thoughts?

Bob

[Iceaxe]

Isn't that what it is right now? At least until one of the powers of beta puts fingers to keyboard and types out a route description and gives it a dedicated place on the interwebs?

[Slot Machine]

Isn't that what it is right now?

It depends. Only if all of the beta publishers know each other and there is a
silent agreement amongst those publishers.

I'm wondering if a page on your website explaining the Dante's might discourage
the next Slot Machine from starting another thread revealing all of the secrets
of the Dante's?

Bob

[Simple]

Hi all,

I've been following this thread since it started and it has finally pushed me to register and become a bogley member. I just have a few thoughts on this topic.

In a world dominated by one species as destructive as the human race, there are things that should be preserved. This preservation needs active involvement to be achieved. The only reason The Wave is still so wonderful is because of the protection of the permit system. However, many canyons do not fall under the protection of the government. Many wonderful, beautiful slots lie outside national parks and reserves. I hate that I cannot go anywhere in the world and not see the work, or rather damage of man. The world is getting smaller with faster transportation and ever available information. Because the canyoneering community has no set, agreed upon code of ethics someone needs take the responsibility of preserving these works of art. I believe that the "Show, don't tell" method takes this responsibility on.

There are obviously some sore spots among members of the canyoneering community concerning the "Show, don't tell" method. The problem with this method is that it creates an "us" and "them" mentality. People feel left out. However, if we can more efficiently use the web to create a more united community, this method could become a good way to train new canyoneers, decreasing injuries and deaths, and useful in creating a universal code of ethics, preserving the art now and in the future.

If we, as a community, could create a forum or something of the sort where people could sign up to do "Show, don't tell" canyons more openly then it could help unify. If I wanted to descend Inferno or one of the many other "secret" canyons, I should be able to post somewhere on this fancy Interweb, "I want to hike Inferno, will someone show me?" And after I have been shown I should be able to show someone else because I have been trained by someone who has good canyon ethics. I understand that this is kind of how the system currently works, but it needs to be more readily available and public.

My last thought is that we all need to treat each other with respect. None of this would have happened if SaraT was asked to remove her pictures in a respectful manner. Obviously I don't know exactly how everything when down, but if we all firstly assume a misunderstanding has occurred instead of purposeful wrong doing a lot of unnecessary conflict can be avoided.

Steph

[Iceaxe]

Because the canyoneering community has no set, agreed upon code of ethics someone needs take the responsibility of preserving these works of art. I believe that the "Show, don't tell" method takes this responsibility on.

Great first post. :2thumbs:

For those playing along at home.... the canyoneering community has already established several routes that fall into this type of special category for various reasons. probably the two most well known are Lomatium and Krill. To date a route had to have a legitimate reason respected by most/all for having such a lofty status bestowed upon it.

I would be curious to hear the reasons that Canyons #3-#5 should receive this type of designation?

I find the idea of a "training ground" of unbetaed canyons intriguing, that would help the entire community up their game (get some skills). My problem with "show don't tell" is that is really not what you are doing. Instead of a printed paint by numbers route guide you are just dragging your breathing beta supply along with you.


:popcorn:

[RAM]

Great first post. :2thumbs:

For those playing along at home.... the canyoneering community has already established several routes that fall into this type of special category for various reasons. probably the two most well known are Lomatium and Krill. To date a route had to have a legitimate reason respected by most/all for having such a lofty status bestowed upon it.

I would be curious to hear the reasons that Canyons #3-#5 should receive this type of designation?

I find the idea of a "training ground" of unbetaed canyons intriguing, that would help the entire community up their game (get some skills). My problem with "show don't tell" is that is really not what you are doing. Instead of a printed paint by numbers route guide you are just dragging your breathing beta supply along with you.


:popcorn:

Lomatium and Krill are good examples, because the access is so tenuous. The best reason I can think of for these canyons might find that status is because they are poised to be used in that way already, if the community is serious about experimenting with a new way to occasionally share canyons


I have a suggestion to adress one of your concerns .....It is a long running policy, among my many partners, that people who have not been in the canyon before, get the lead. In fact if you have been before, then grab the lead, someone will likely call you out on it. A nice policy. "Show but don't tell" canyons have a long history of placing the problem solving in the hands of the folks being 'shown." Those in the canyon for the first time can and do ask for help sometimes. Sometimes time pressure or a nasty silo might mitigate, but vast majority of the time, on trips I am on, the lead and the problem solving is given to those who have not been before. Others may like this approach.
ram

[Iceaxe]

I use that technique most of the time with my kids.... they are gaining skills very fast with that approach. :2thumbs:

But still, having your breathing beta (or dad) along is not even close to the same thing as an exploration. Let's see if I can figure out the problem is an entirely different animal from I have to figure out the problem.

FWIW: I see no problem with giving the "training ground" a try, worse that can happen is it doesn't work.

Just food for thought.... :popcorn:

[CarpeyBiggs]

I find the idea of a "training ground" of unbetaed canyons intriguing, that would help the entire community up their game (get some skills). My problem with "show don't tell" is that is really not what you are doing. Instead of a printed paint by numbers route guide you are just dragging your breathing beta supply along with you.


the difference is, the people who are being shown don't know what's there yet. they only know as much has been shared with them, if anything at all. with beta, the features are all published and reviewable, so it's totally paint by numbers. you know every move before you set foot in the canyon.

however, if someone shows you, often the canyon is "revealed" as you go. they will probably know the rope length, and wetsuit requirements, but if you are ghosting, they probably don't know anything else. you don't tell people the solutions to the puzzle before you get there. solving them is half the fun.

really, the two approaches are hardly comparable. and, usually you've done a few canyons with the other person, so they (or you, if you are doing the showing) know when the skills are there for a more advanced canyon, especially an unpublished one that might throw a curve ball or two.

[Iceaxe]

You must have missed this.... "having your breathing beta (or dad) along is not even close to the same thing as an exploration. Let's see if I can figure out the problem is an entirely different animal from I have to figure out the problem."


One version has a pucker factor of 10, one has a pucker factor of 2. And pucker factor is really the big difference in exploring the unknown.

[RAM]

You must have missed this.... "having your breathing beta (or dad) along is not even close to the same thing as an exploration. Let's see if I can figure out the problem is an entirely different animal from I have to figure out the problem."


One version has a pucker factor of 10, one has a pucker factor of 2. And pucker factor is really the big difference in exploring the unknown.


Want the pucker factor back in a canyon you know? Watch....or don't watch your daughter doing her first silo. It doesn't get much better with the 2nd and 3rd silo either. Sometimes knowing what is ahead can be just as bad, perhaps worse. What are ya gonna do? She wants the places and you think she has trained up erough and paid the dues. Proof is in the doing. I won't go on Facebook because I don't want to know what my son Aaron is doing these days. There are canyons I take folks where I am plenty scared knowing what is coming.
Ram

[Iceaxe]

Want the pucker factor back in a canyon you know? Watch....or don't watch your daughter doing her first silo. It doesn't get much better with the 2nd and 3rd silo either. Sometimes knowing what is ahead can be just as bad, perhaps worse. What are ya gonna do? She wants the places and you think she has trained up erough and paid the dues.

Don't I know it!

This kid stuff scares the snot outta me... :jaw-dropping:

But you don't get tamed ducks from wild duck eggs.

[Slot Machine]

the difference is, the people who are being shown don't know what's there yet. they only know as much has been shared with them, if anything at all. with beta, the features are all published and reviewable, so it's totally paint by numbers. you know every move before you set foot in the canyon.

Agreed. How to use an unpublished canyon is up to the user, obviously. Training
ground, show don't tell, exploration experience, all seem like good uses of
these canyons. But what is the best way to keep the details of these canyons
unpublished, now that many people know about them? Do the beta publishers
acknowledge their existence and ask people to keep details quiet? Shane?

Bob

[jman]

Agreed. How to use an unpublished canyon is up to the user, obviously. Training ground, show don't tell, exploration experience, all seem like good uses of these canyons. But what is the best way to keep the details of these canyons unpublished, now that many people know about them? Do the beta publisher’s acknowledge their existence and ask people to keep deatails quiet? Shane?

Bob

Hmm..I dunno if that's the solution either.

IE - there plenty of canyons detailed in books that aren't published online (Kelsey) and yet when I visit these canyons there is not a soul around, yet Kelsey gives the beta freely and comprehensively. So the beta is there - so perhaps the difficulty of these canyons is what scare most people away (thus in great condition for my group and I)?

Even in Martins book for AZ, plenty of beta published, very very very rarely seen anyone else.

On second thought, these canyons may not be a 5/5 for every one but they are in prime condition; no bolts, tiny rope grooves (if any), and lots of fun!

I'm half for publishing and half for not-publishing.

[ratagonia]

Agreed. How to use an unpublished canyon is up to the user, obviously. Training ground, show don't tell, exploration experience, all seem like good uses of these canyons. But what is the best way to keep the details of these canyons unpublished, now that many people know about them? Do the beta publisher’s acknowledge their existence and ask people to keep details quiet? Shane?

Bob

I am a little confused, Bob, because I don't see much of a difference between what you are proposing and what we have already. Perhaps you could clarify what is different and new...

The 'system' we have now is:

1. Each beta publisher makes their own choices about what to publish and what not. And they publish or not.

2. People interested in doing canyons without beta go out and do them. And they publish or not.

3. People who want beta on canyons that are not published ask on the interwebs, and may or may not get provided information at the level of detail they wish.

4. People who want beta on canyons that are not published ask on the interwebs, get contacted privately, and either accept or don't accept a conditional offer.

What are you proposing that is different than this system?

Tom

[hank moon]

Hey, big kudos to Slot Machine, Steph, and others for being open to alternative approaches to the "us vs. us" problem. It's great to see some convergent movement in this thread - keep it up!

[Slot Machine]

I am a little confused, Bob, because I don't see much of a difference between what you are proposing and what we have already. Perhaps you could clarify what is different and new...

The 'system' we have now is:

1. Each beta publisher makes their own choices about what to publish and what not. And they publish or not.

2. People interested in doing canyons without beta go out and do them. And they publish or not.

3. People who want beta on canyons that are not published ask on the interwebs, and may or may not get provided information at the level of detail they wish.

4. People who want beta on canyons that are not published ask on the interwebs, get contacted privately, and either accept or don't accept a conditional offer.

What are you proposing that is different than this system?

Tom

Tom,

I might have been unclear before, I am only talking about The Dante's.

I'm proposing treating The Dante's in a new different way. Let's say all the
beta publishers post on their respective websites that The Dante's are an
exploration preserve along with a set of standards for how the preserve is to be
treated. (see my post at the top of this page)

It seems if another Slot Machine comes along and publishes beta on Dante's you
would be pretty disappointed. It seems you have shared something special with a
bunch of people and would like to continue that tradition of treating friends to
a mysterious canyon. Why not make an attempt at keeping this place clean and
mysterious?

Maybe an ethic against posting Dante's beta on the interwebs? An ethic that
every canyoneer knows about?

The Dante's beta will get published very soon if no expectation is set. But if
you don't care, then it's a waste of my time to care.

Bob

[DOSS]

Maybe an ethic against posting Dante's beta on the interwebs? An ethic that every canyoneer knows about?

The Dante's beta will get published very soon if no expectation is set. But if you don't care, then it's a waste of my time to care.

Bob

:gents: That has to be the best way to avoid all of this crap that seems to come up every time someone talks about someone else "secret canyon"... they are not secret so lets just acknowledge that they exist and try to turn them into preserves. Then the next time someone comes on and posts like Bob did it won't be 5 pages of :argue: Instead Tom can pipe in with "That canyon is one of what we call a preserve, a no beta on the internet, go do it, go loaded for bear, Don't bolt the damn thing" and enjoy :)

[RAM]

Tom,

I might have been unclear before, I am only talking about The Dante's.

I'm proposing treating The Dante's in a new different way. Let's say all the beta publishers post on their respective websites that The Dante's are an exploration preserve along with a set of standards for how the preserve is to be treated. (see my post at the top of this page)

It seems if another Slot Machine comes along and publishes beta on Dante's you would be pretty disappointed. It seems you have shared something special with a bunch of people and would like to continue that tradition of treating friends to a mysterious canyon. Why not make an attempt at keeping this place clean and mysterious?

Maybe an ethic against posting Dante's beta on the interwebs? An ethic that every canyoneer knows about?

The Dante's beta will get published very soon if no expectation is set. But if you don't care, then it's a waste of my time to care.

Bob

It sounds like a fun experiment. So where from here? First off, the "Author" would need to remain blissfully ignorant. I don't believe he would ever agree to the idea of an exploration preserve. What works in our favor is that the book he would publish these canyons in came out pretty recently, he doesn't plan a general guide anytime soon and he dismissed these canyons as being too short when a member of the community asked him about it years ago.

I don't think it is up to Tom. He has been out there for years without publishing. I think it may come down to what Shane wants to do with these canyons. No effort to create the idea of a preserve is possible, without him leading the effort.
Ram

[ratagonia]

blank

[outsider]

It has been fascinating to read through this thread, and see where it has gone. The preserve concept is interesting and I hope there can be success with it. In fact, I hope the concept (or something similar) can be applied to other locations on the Colorado Plateau. Now, I like beta as much as anyone else; my bookshelf attests to this. I've spent way too much time dinking around the interwebs groping for data. But there is now a lot of info out there. Anyone finish off every canyon in Kelsey's 2nd edition? Heck, not even Mr. Kelsey has done every canyon in his book. I could spend the rest of my canyon days just sticking to beta'd routes.

But as a number of people - MSchasch, Penmartens, Iceaxe, to name a few - have mentioned, exploring is something special. Am I much of an explorer myself - nahhh, not really, but the concept appeals. Seems like “undocumented terrain/canyons” are a finite and dwindling resource, maybe something that should be preserved or saved at some point? I know not everyone feels this way, or has an interest in exploration. But maybe some compromise is in order? Naive and unlikely, perhaps, but just a thought.

So to folks interested in this "Dante" area, or other off-the-radar areas, I say: Go explore! Be safe, be clean, have fun, AND leave the experience you have available for others.

-john

[ratagonia]

blank

[Iceaxe]

It sounds like a fun experiment. So where from here? First off, the "Author" would need to remain blissfully ignorant. I don't believe he would ever agree to the idea of an exploration preserve. What works in our favor is that the book he would publish these canyons in came out pretty recently, he doesn't plan a general guide anytime soon and he dismissed these canyons as being too short when a member of the community asked him about it years ago.

I don't think it is up to Tom. He has been out there for years without publishing. I think it may come down to what Shane wants to do with these canyons. No effort to create the idea of a preserve is possible, without him leading the effort.
Ram

I don't have much time to respond at the moment, but so far I like the idea of a preserve. I have been reading the posts with an open mind and I'm interested in thoughts on how it should be defined and what the "rules" should be.

Brainstorm away!

[Slot Machine]

I don't think it is up to Tom. He has been out there for years without publishing. I think it may come down to what Shane wants to do with these canyons. No effort to create the idea of a preserve is possible, without him leading the effort.
Ram

I hope everyone supports the idea. Thanks for your input Mr Ram.

Today I found a nice story about Dante's Inferno:

http://www.math.utah.edu/~sfolias/canyontales/tale/?i=inferno (http://www.math.utah.edu/%7Esfolias/canyontales/tale/?i=inferno)

Is it just me or is there a lot of beta in this story?

Yeah Bro, I found it while using tons of my free time for canyon internet
investigation. That is time I probably should be using for doing canyons or
something. :haha:

Bob

[spinesnaper]

I am actually surprised that this post wasn't dusted off earlier. One concern I have in having a list of "preserved" canyons, is that any list is going to generate interest. I think for the folks keeping lists of secret canyons, they are going to have to balance being accommodating vs the reality that "loose lips sink ships." So in theory telling people that such and such a canyon is a ghost only canyon without other beta will never be as good as simply not even discussing a canyon on the interwebs. If you seriously want to protect these canyons, this entire thread and the math.utah.edu link should be removed from the Internet. Discussions of these "show but don't tell" canyons should really be in person, by phone, or by private message, IMO. I know that may not be a popular attitude but talking about a canyon will not guarantee the preservation of a canyon. There should be an understanding that threads on certain canyons will not be tolerated by the canyoneering community. Unfortunately I think that level of discipline is needed to truly protect these canyons.

Ken

[Iceaxe]

If you seriously want to protect these canyons, this entire thread and the math.utah.edu link should be removed from the Internet.

If you really want to see a crap storm just moderate a thread on Bogley and watch it hit the fan... the funny part is a couple of those screaming keep it secret the hardest are the same individuals that have bitch the loudest in the past when a thread has been moderated for similarly principled reasons.

I'm not taking a side at the moment... just pointing out that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[spinesnaper]

If you really want to see a crap storm just moderate a thread on Bogley and watch it hit the fan... the funny part is a couple of those screaming keep it secret the hardest are the same individuals that have bitch the loudest in the past when a thread has been moderated for similarly principled reasons.

I'm not taking a side at the moment... just pointing out that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Shane

If it wasn't a conundrum, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. Of course the hypocrisy runs even deeper because some of the A-team trip reports do seem to have the chest beating, how great am I quality even if the original authors did not intend the post to have that flavor ( and yes I am as guilty as anyone by reading and enjoying these blogs). They bait enterprising canyoneers to repeat these feats so they too can bask in greatness. (OK, maybe I have gone a bit overboard here.) Just remember that PR = increased profile. Next thing you know someone will be spray painting graffiti, putting up bolt gardens, leaving slings and body parts in your favorite, heretofore undespoiled, pristine canyon. So the canyoneering communities' leadership needs to come up with some sort of solution that helps keep these canyons on the down-low. Having a big thread about unbetaed canyons just does not seem like the ideal solution.

Ken

[ratagonia]

blank

[jon.moab]

Great pic Tom. Do you have one that shows the whole pothole? Just curious to see a pic zoomed out a bit.

[Slot Machine]

So the canyoneering communities' leadership needs to come up with some sort of
solution that helps keep these canyons on the down-low. Having a big thread
about unbetaed canyon just does not seem like the idea solution.
Ken

Good point Ken.

It appears Tom no longer cares if it kept a secret (since photos are being
shared).

Maybe at this point setting aside a preserve is like expecting water to flow up
uphill.

Thanks Tom for sharing the photo. GREAT traverse Dave :hail2thechief:.

Bob

[hank moon]

post deleted by author

[jon.moab]

Here's one...showing Tom taking the previous :)

Thanks Hank! Awesome shot. Looks like a pristine place!

[RAM]

Shane

If it wasn't a conundrum, it wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. Of course the hypocrisy runs even deeper because some of the A-team trip reports do seem to have the chest beating, how great am I quality even if the original authors did not intend the post to have that flavor ( and yes I am as guilty as anyone by reading and enjoying these blogs). They bait enterprising canyoneers to repeat these feats so they too can bask in greatness. (OK, maybe I have gone a bit overboard here.) Just remember that PR = increased profile. Next thing you know someone will be spray painting graffiti, putting up bolt gardens, leaving slings and body parts in your favorite, heretofore undespoiled, pristine canyon. So the canyoneering communities' leadership needs to come up with some sort of solution that helps keep these canyons on the down-low. Having a big thread about unbetaed canyon just does not seem like the idea solution.

Ken


Hank has a good idea perhaps. Delete all this. Also take down all the other info.....As far as the story is concerned it struck me as not being so much chest beating as airing dirty laundry, in this case the tension, conflict, inefficiencies, fear. I thought the crew brave to bare themselves in this manner....Yes much beta in the story......but......no one knows which of the 6 or 7 drainages it is, do they? :naughty:
R

[spinesnaper]

Hank has a good idea perhaps. Delete all this. Also take down all the other info.....As far as the story is concerned it struck me as not being so much chest beating as airing dirty laundry, in this case the tension, conflict, inefficiencies, fear. I thought the crew brave to bare themselves in this manner....Yes much beta in the story......but......no one knows which of the 6 or 7 drainages it is, do they? :naughty:
R

Ram

I really didn't mean to pick on that particular story. I loved reading it and personally I didn't feel compelled to go search the Earth and retrace this canyon. Although I must say the photos are intriguing. Although this thread has been viewed over 4000 times, that is just 180 people looking at it 22 times each. I think Slot Machine has gotten the beta he was looking for and then some. So I think this thread could be aced as if it never existed. Those who needed this thread have gotten what they needed and the community will be supporting the effort to protect these canyons. Those who complain about the missing thread will be asked to stand in line at the Zion Backcountry desk in mid August and ponder the ad hoc conservation effort while they wait for a Subway or Mystery permit.:lol8:

[Slot Machine]

blank

[Iceaxe]

I believe Shane is still on the fence but open to the idea of a preserve.

I'm on board with a preserve... depending on exactly what that entails.... it would probably be more accurate to say I'm on board with the idea of a preserve. It's certainly an interesting concept.

[ratagonia]

This seems like an excellent approach, but would need everyone's support. I believe Shane is still on the fence but open to the idea of a preserve. I am open to the idea of deleting this thread, although some very good ideas would vanish into the ether.

Tom, I think everyone would appreciate hearing your thoughts about a preserve. I don't think it can happen without Tom's support.

Bob

We already have preserves. Reviewing the canyons I did last year, I see about a third of my canyon time is spent in un-published canyons. Looking through the last couple years of Raves, about the same, and sometimes I give full beta on the new canyon, though not bringing it onto Tom's Canyoneering Guide. I expect to maintain this policy, as I consider breaking new canyons to the public, outside Zion, is Shane's job, and I don't want to tread on his toes, nor attempt to compete with him.

Your proposal is to have a publicly-declared preserve, and I think the idea has a great deal of merit. I am skeptical it can work, however, but I am certainly willing to give it a try. I think there are better places to give it a try than the Dante's, but that is the bag that is open with the cats running around our ankles.

Perhaps, Bob, you would clarify what the proposed agreement is, as you see it?

I understand the negative action: not publish "full beta" on these canyons.

But I do not want to publish anything on these canyons on my website, even just a declaration of a preserve zone, WHERE it is, and a suggestion that people should not publish information on these canyons. I realize the WHERE is available publicly, here on this thread for the first time... this is what I am most uncomfortable with, drawing more attention to this area. Obviously it is a good little area, or we wouldn't be gettin' all jiggy about it... but it's not that good.

The problem I see is that the agreement is between X group of people, but with public availability of limited beta, another group of people Y are also involved, without actually agreeing to it. Like Mr. K., but others too, less famous. So I would not expect it to take too long for the agreement to be blown, and this sweet, clean little area becomes popular and chewed up. In a way, declaring an area a "preserve" seems like it would mark an area as a sacrifice area, just not right away. But it starts the clock ticking.

I'm not against canyons becoming popular, I'm actually in favor of it. But not ALL canyons. There is a certain irony here that this set of canyons has now been "outed" by people who have not even done them. I'm not saying you were "wrong" at any point in this process, Bob, just that you put us in kind of a crazy place.

Yes, as the arc of history bends towards justice, the arc of beta bends toward all canyons being published, beta'd, popular, bolted, trashed. Shane is our partner in keeping the bolts out of the canyons - thank you, Sir Ice. My opinion, elitist as it may be, is that there are enough canyons out there with beta to keep people busy for many years. And people who are interested in doing canyons without beta are certainly welcome to do so. It just seems peculiar to ask for beta on canyons that are not beta'd... and decline a private conversation that would have made that available to you.

So it comes full circle. The only way Bob would know that these canyons have been done but are deliberately not-public is to ask in a public place. Which he did. And then he declined my offer for a non-public discussion (was I really that obnoxious?), which is certainly his right. In the past, few of those offers have been declined, people go with us and do some canyons, and become part of our community or not. I am sad that this did not happen in this case.

So, yes, I can agree to not publish any more beta than has already been published. I can agree to publish that this particular area is a "preserve", but I would prefer not to. I think it draws too much attention to the area. There are other areas I would rather give up, like Little Gem Canyon, ( http://www.summitpost.org/little-gem-canyon-west-fork/152117 ), Ireland Mesa Canyon or Hidden Plus One.

Did I talk that around in circles twice? My head is spinning; might be the scotch. :cool2:

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

And the minute these canyons are listed publicly as "sacred cows" the Gold rush will be on...........

My question to the group--why does anything have to change?

A stark reality is that eventually this complex and many others will be broadbanded, thats a reality.

How we choose to slow or expedite this inevitable transition is up to us.

Plastering anything with the "sacred cow" moniker only draws interest by those who would otherwise not have any.( I use GSENM as my prime example)

[jman]

Plastering anything with the "sacred cow" moniker only draws interest by those who would otherwise not have any.( I use GSENM as my prime example)

Exactly Kurt! That's why I have beef with someone posting pics of these gems and going "nah nah nah nah nah, lok where I have been and you haven't". Even if its not explicitly said quite like that, the rest of us feel left out. Hence the inquisitive minds.

If you post teasers of canyons, caves, etc. expect to be bombarded with location questions. That should not come as a surprise. Just being captain obvious here - but it seems like a few haven't learned that reality yet...

[penmartens]

The ‘A Team’ has been, and is today, a broad and dynamic collection of people. Tom and Ram are the only consistent members. Most members are around for a few trips, or a few years, and then move on having matured into skilled canyoneers who think, act, and adventure in their own style. Each canyon can have its own unique ‘A Team’.
In the case of the Dante’s, the members of the ‘A team’ that first went in to explore gave their word to each other, equally, notwithstanding the fame of some, each having taken risks on that day, that they would not mention the Dante’s to the community. That these would be ‘show, not tell’ canyons.
When is an anchor not an anchor? When it fails, it is not an anchor.
When is an agreement not an agreement? When pictures and beta are given publicly to the community with the goal of bullying, flaunting, taunting, and/or manipulating, it breaks the agreement.
Half of the ‘A team’ unique to the Dante’s has broken the agreement. It is null and void. I no longer feel bound by an honorable agreement. I will not stand by and be part of bullying, deceit, and manipulation. It is against the moral standards by which I guide my entire life, not just the recreational sport of canyoneering.
I wonder how the other ‘hundreds’ are feeling, having bargained in good faith.
Penny

[spinesnaper]

:facepalm1: Geez guys, these poor canyons are going to be committeed to death. Just frigging delete the thread. OK some of our really smart comments will disappear into the void. I for one do not believe for a minute that it is enough to advertise the existence of these canyon but set ground rules for the canyon. Many may respect that but it is still traffic. Unless these threads are taken down, it is inevitable that these particular canyons will see much more traffic and I suspect that with the proliferation of beta sites, someone will spill the beans.

I think on an other thread, it might be very interesting to talk about how "new' canyons are introduced to the public eye, what canyons are promoted and why, and how effective posting local ethics are in maintaining a particular canyon. I do agree that it would be very interesting to having an understanding that this might include a category of canyons without beta. Should Dante be one of these canyons? I think it is likely that the other canyons in this system will also see increased traffic.

Ken

[Iceaxe]

FWIW: This thread will not be deleted. One of the core values of Bogley and a major reason for its existence is to allow a free-flowing exchange of information.

So... having my support means the B-Team (maybe that should be Rebel Alliance?) doesn't charge in on a sunny weekend in the near future and beta the entire complex in a detailed and systematic format.

[spinesnaper]

Shane

This of course is the inevitable conflict. If you are in the business of selling information (or getting eyeballs and selling ads), the more conflict and controversy the better. The community has a long memory so this thread perhaps can serve as an object lesson. Given then that these canyons have officially been outted, is it possible to have a limit on the detail of beta or will this also be eroded to "allow a free-flowing exchange of information?"

Ken

[oldno7]

This thread or any other relating to canyoneering should not be deleted, If your worried about it, Ken, as one of the top posters on this thread, quit posting and hope it will die.

Theres already been some great comments and participation by many, including some of the first group to "officially" descend these canyons.

Censorship is self serving in this case, open dialogue is the preferred method. imo.

I didn't see or hear anything that states these canyons have been "outed". There were suggestions and sharing of ideas, along with some dissension from the "original" group.

Theres still un beta'd and un explored canyons out there, many in fact!!!

I guess Ken would prefer all of Steve Allen's and Mike Kelsey's books be banned and all remaining copies burned?(you might be surprised how many canyons have previously been documented in these books alone)

You may notice, I struggle with the idea of locking threads and censoring an entire community.

[ratagonia]

While deleting the whole thread requires a moderator and is against policy (ie, an abomination), individuals are free to remove their own content in the thread, either selectively or in toto. Select 'edit', replace content with 'blank', select 'save'.

Tom :moses:

[spinesnaper]

This thread or any other relating to canyoneering should not be deleted, If your worried about it, Ken, as one of the top posters on this thread, quit posting and hope it will die.

Theres already been some great comments and participation by many, including some of the first group to "officially" descend these canyons.

Censorship is self serving in this case, open dialogue is the preferred method. imo.

I didn't see or hear anything that states these canyons have been "outed". There were suggestions and sharing of ideas, along with some dissension from the "original" group.

Theres still un beta'd and un explored canyons out there, many in fact!!!

I guess Ken would prefer all of Steve Allen's and Mike Kelsey's books be banned and all remaining copies burned?(you might be surprised how many canyons have previously been documented in these books alone)

You may notice, I struggle with the idea of locking threads and censoring an entire community.

No, what I said was that the hypocrisy runs deep. I do not venture into canyons without every ounce of beta I can scrounge up. I own all the canyoneering guides that are published. I scour the internet for canyoneering blogs and love reading reports about canyons that I am probably never going to do. And, yes Shane, I will be soon renewing my subscription to Climb Utah. But I also respect the desire to protect some canyons from being loved to death. I think it is also interesting to talk about how these canyons bubble up to public awareness. Development is inevitable, conservation takes work.

Respectfully

Ken

[Iceaxe]

While deleting the whole thread requires a moderator and is against policy (ie, an abomination), individuals are free to remove their own content in the thread, either selectively or in toto. Select 'edit', replace content with 'blank', select 'save'.

Actually that "depends".... In the past when individuals have used such a method to try and "trash" or attack the forum their abilities to "edit" have been removed. Super Mod's also have the ability to restore deleted content. Actions detrimental to the forum as a whole are usually frowned upon.

Those types of calls are above my pay grade, just pointing out that Tom's information was not entirely accurate.

[oldno7]

No, what I said was that the hypocrisy runs deep. I do not venture into canyons without every ounce of beta I can scrounge up. I own all the canyoneering guides that are published. I scour the internet for canyoneering blogs and love reading reports about canyons that I am probably never going to do. And, yes Shane, I will be soon renewing my subscription to Climb Utah. But I also respect the desire to protect some canyons from being loved to death. I think it is also interesting to talk about how these canyons bubble up to public awareness. Development is inevitable, conservation takes work.

Respectfully

Ken

You didn't say this----

"Geez guys, these poor canyons are going to be committeed to death. Just frigging delete the thread."

or this----

"Unless these threads are taken down, it is inevitable that these particular canyons will see much more traffic and I suspect that with the proliferation of beta sites, someone will spill the beans."


You did say this--

"No, what I said was that the hypocrisy runs deep."

And on that--I wholeheartedly agree

[spinesnaper]

Yes, yes I did and I stand by those statements. I think we all know that these canyons will change in character as they are popularized. Will it be the death of a canyon? Sure blogospheric hyperbole to make the point regarding how a wild canyon changes with human impact. We can have a debate about whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. The inherent contradiction is that I am involved in canyoneering in no small measure because of the success of forums like this. I am sure that is true for many canyoneers. At the same time I can understand the reluctance of certain canyoneers to spill the beans and share information on canyons as a way of preserving wild places. The irony is that in many cases it appears that the canyoneers most actively involved in promoting and in many cases profiting from the growth in canyoneering are also the ones weighing what information to disseminate. The conflict of interest is obvious.

Ken

[Iceaxe]

Slot Machine gets the beta he requests in the form of "yes, the canyons are good and worth doing", and than SM pulls up the ladder behind himself... I just don't really agree with that, I believe its disrespectful to those outside of the A-team that provided him with what they knew.

I'm pretty sure that #5 is the slot the now deleted pretty pothole pictures came from... I could be wrong.

#5 - N37 41' 20", W110 31' 18"

51006

[oldno7]

I'm busy until the end of February-ish,

Might have to put together a Dantes bogleyfest.

Yep--no respect for SM.

Tom--well, as mentioned in this thread already, believes conditions he instigates, don't apply to him.(hypocritical??me thinks) don't need a separate thread to see that.

[Iceaxe]

All Bogley members have the ability to download an entire thread
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?40649

Which I did when I saw the direction this was going..... Here is a transcript before the mass deletion:

[accadacca]

Wow! :eek2: I kept seeing this thread popping up on my "what's new" list and I finally jumped in fully and finished reading it...wasted my whole lunch. What an excellent read! :popcorn:

I learned a great deal reading this thread and it really gave me a great perspective into all sides of the argument. I too hope that none of the valuable dialog is deleted. I for one learned some valuable lessons and was educated. Terrific. :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

I'm busy until the end of February-ish,

Might have to put together a Dantes bogleyfest.

Yep--no respect for SM.

Tom--well, as mentioned in this thread already, believes conditions he instigates, don't apply to him.(hypocritical??me thinks) don't need a separate thread to see that.

~sarcasm~ Happy to have you as a fan, Kurt. :2thumbs: ~/sarcasm~

[accadacca]

Looks like its too late. :facepalm1: I see a bunch of blank posts and by people who I wouldn't think would be into this type of activity. Shoot, that was valuable stuff for the community to read and understand. I learned a bunch and it seems that much of the dialog about ethics was deleted too. Which didn't have anything to do with the secret canyons. Ah well, laters... :ne_nau:

[oldno7]

And heres a post after Tom and Hank posted pictures from the canyon.


"When is an agreement not an agreement? When pictures and beta are given publicly to the community with the goal of bullying, flaunting, taunting, and/or manipulating, it breaks the agreement.
Half of the ‘A team’ unique to the Dante’s has broken the agreement. It is null and void. I no longer feel bound by an honorable agreement. I will not stand by and be part of bullying, deceit, and manipulation. It is against the moral standards by which I guide my entire life, not just the recreational sport of canyoneering.
I wonder how the other ‘hundreds’ are feeling, having bargained in good faith."
Penny

Soo? Who's the hypocrites?

Still can't see it Tom?

[ratagonia]

And heres a post after Tom and Hank posted pictures from the canyon.



"When is an agreement not an agreement? When pictures and beta are given publicly to the community with the goal of bullying, flaunting, taunting, and/or manipulating, it breaks the agreement.
Half of the ‘A team’ unique to the Dante’s has broken the agreement. It is null and void. I no longer feel bound by an honorable agreement. I will not stand by and be part of bullying, deceit, and manipulation. It is against the moral standards by which I guide my entire life, not just the recreational sport of canyoneering.
I wonder how the other ‘hundreds’ are feeling, having bargained in good faith."
Penny

Soo? Who's the hypocrites?

Still can't see it Tom?

Nuance Kurt.

There is a big difference between pictures and beta. The agreement was not to paste beta, not to give away the location. Identifying pictures definitely forbidden. A picture of a person crossing a pothole - hardly identifiable. Thus, while Penny thinks I have given it away, I disagree. I believe I am inside the agreement. But I took down the picture anyway (too late) because she objected.

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

Nuance/smuance, my guess is a lot of canyon folks, now know where the Dantes are.

really my only problem here is figuring out how you label enough canyons here to get 9 inferno's.:twisted:

and who got to decide, out of the 9, which was the worst level.:haha:

No inferno on this side of the hill today, more like 5-6" of snow and still flurrying.

[MSchasch]

blah blah blah

once again back into a thread full of instigating with subtle and not so subtle shots at folks

Why don't you guys just go do the canyons instead of talking about it. Heres the weather forecast, looks good: http://www.wunderground.com/US/UT/Hanksville.html

Or just resume posting "neener neener" BS like the map that was deleted by the originator, or how to save threads.

Its getting pretty embarrassing.

[mdd]

[LEFT]Well, I

[Deathcricket]

Back to lurking

Come back sooner than later, that was a nice post and well said. :2thumbs:

[outsider]

mdd, I’d posit there’s another argument for “secret” canyons. Preservation of exploration. An example comes to mind (please anyone correct me if I have my history wrong). Canyoneers, including some on this site, started “exploring” what is called the North Wash area 10-12 years ago. I think a number of folks had a hand in this, and I suspect a lot of fun was derived from the whole process (not to mention a few classic stories came into being). But… as it turns out (if my understanding is correct), Steve Allen and friends descended many of these canyons 15-20 years ago, they just didn’t publicly throw out the beta. So thanks to their actions, a whole new generation of explorers had a wonderful experience waiting for them.

In this day and age of FB, Google+, Bogley, Yahoo, etc., etc. I doubt “secret” can happen anymore. It would take a concerted effort by an entire community. People just don’t work that way. Oh well.

-john

Ps. I put “secret” in quotes because I don’t believe there is such a thing as secret canyons with current technology. They are all there in Google earth for anyone to see.

[EDIT to add a couple things I forgot to mention: NW is an ideal area to be fully documented - large variety of canyons in a compact area, close to a road. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. mdd, didn't mean to be confrontational, I think your points are spot on. Just think there are additional reasons for keeping quiet about places. Last, I may try to convince people that keeping a place under the radar makes sense, but I'm not interested in doing so through any kind of arm twisting. People ought to do what they think is right in this regards.]

[The Good Cop]

I was very impressed by what I saw to be Mike's (MDD) efforts in his Ouray book to engage the various stakeholders in the community and inform & inspire canyoners to respect the various concerns & interests. Bravo Mike & thanks for helping me to understand how to explore Ouray sustainably!

Having said that, the concept of an 'exploration preserve' sounds like a wonderful & worthwhile thing to me. The many challenges involved with making it work are things I have no brilliant suggestions for, but the idea seems worth working on.

Cheers,

Wayne

[hank moon]

the concept of an 'exploration preserve' sounds like a wonderful & worthwhile thing to me. The many challenges involved with making it work are things I have no brilliant suggestions for, but the idea seems worth working on.

x2

[Sombeech]

OK so here's an honest question, which I'm surprised is not asked more;

If I'm surfing around Google Maps or maybe I come across a canyon pic on the interwebs.... And I post it here asking "where is this, or what's the name of this canyon?"....

If the canyon is in the Preserve, or in Beta Only phase, what is the correct response? A private message? A reply stating that this canyon is part of the Preserve? Because to put it bluntly, this thread turned ugly when an honest canyon seeker was attacked by the mysterious "juaquin" for using online resources to look for canyons. Maybe canyon research is only allowed from a book? Argue that if you must (but please don't), and it just got nasty after that.

But how are the noobs and other canyon seekers supposed to know if a canyon is off limits, secret, show but don't tell, beta, handshake, campfire talk, or paid guide only? And if the inquiring thread gets deleted, then that invites others to ask over and over again because there is no sign of the original question.

Serious inquiry, smart ass responses not needed.

[Iceaxe]

If the canyon is in the Preserve,

So long as the elitest continue to bully noob's the way I saw in this thread you can kiss the idea of a preserve good-bye.

I think I'll just go back to the good ol' days when I cherry picked the best of the show don't tell canyons and betaed the hell outta them.... I'm sure guys like juaquin remember those days fondly...

And I hope this isn't taken as a smartass remark, because I'm serious. I thought it was a disgrace the way a noob doing the research, and looking for canyons the correct way by pouring over his maps was treated...

Now I'm off to do some show-don't-tell canyons... with my trusty notebook, GPS and camera.

:cool2:

[Deathcricket]

Come on! People are reading this stuff! Some of you fail to even sign your name to your post(s)! If this diminishing kind of dialogue occurred in a face-to-face setting, there would likely be guns, knives, bloody noses and all would be sent to the principal's office. Your parents would be called, your granny saddened and expulsion warranted in many cases! Who among you would dare to say such nasty things to someone's face?!

Respectfully,
Jenny (Luella and Edna's Grand daughter)

Hahaha with this thread "cleaned up" I had missed this post and it was well written. I think you are a little off base on the violence scenario though. Even though we all have different opinions and don't really get along online, I think there is an underlying respect everyone has for each other and doing a canyon we are fine. Having a different opinion is completely different than wishing violence upon someone. We aren't neanderthals you know :) For Example, I argue probably with Tom the most online, I have done a canyon with him and found his company very agreeable, he was full of knowledge and a very good guide. No matter what we say online to each other, I doubt either of us is really angry and would wish violence upon the other. I'm sure it's the same for all of us here. In all the time spent here and myriad of different personalities, I've only heard of one single instance where one canyoneer assaulted another on a trip. That's a pretty good record and testament to the quality people canyoneers are.

Although perhaps violent instances do occur and the parties just agree to keep silent about it, I could be wrong about my "one bad apple" theory. :lol8:

But no, I don't think you are naive in your thinking or wrong with your thoughts. Bummed I miss your post the first time, good stuff.

[Deathcricket]

If I'm surfing around Google Maps or maybe I come across a canyon pic on the interwebs.... And I post it here asking "where is this, or what's the name of this canyon?"....


I think you just do the canyon and then find out later honestly. Some friends and I thought we were one of the first through a canyon "we thought" we discovered up in Silver Reef area. Pretty close to Yankee Doodle actually. We came loaded to the hilt and expecting some awesome beta adventures. Once inside the canyon, it was very clear lots of people had been in there before us and it was very well traveled. And I was so looking so forward to coming up with a name for it! Turns out it was Hidden Star and apparently very well known already. Ahhh well....

[Sombeech]

I think you just do the canyon and then find out later honestly.

OK, say you do that, snap some pics, take some technical notes..... then what? Do you need approval of the committee before you can post the pictures? Because at some point you'll need to find out if anybody else knows of the canyon, risking harsh cyber discipline. Who do you beg and plead to? It can't all be via private message, if you're a noob - not knowing the experts.

My point is it's going to happen again. And that excited noob who is eager to contribute something to the community is just going to get his ass kicked by juaquin. And those who tell juaquin to simmer down (deathcricket) are going to be deemed the attacker for some strange reason.

Everybody is on board for canyon preservation to some extent. But there's no real plan in place on how to do that. So far it's just attacking the dude who stumbles upon the location, and then hopefully delete the thread.

[Deathcricket]

Keep in mind I'm not part of the A-team elite secret handshake crew. But yeah, I would think publishing beta on one of their secret canyons, no matter how you got the info, would be cause for shunning. Just look at how that poor lady was treated in this very thread for an example, can't recall the name, Sarah I think? Thank goodness there is very little else they can do and their powers are very limited. So besides a "shame on you" type response their options are limited. Another reason I think Iceaxe's point in another thread about the fox guarding the henhouse was so pertinent.

[Sombeech]

Keep in mind I'm not part of the A-team elite secret handshake crew. But yeah, I would think publishing beta on one of their secret canyons, no matter how you got the info, would be cause for shunning.

I understand this, but the question is, how does the eager canyoneer know the canyon is part of that secret beta group - the "Preserve", or if it's truly a first time discovery? How do they refrain from publishing beta? Where is the "allowed canyons list" to compare against? If it exists, is it complete? And if it's complete, that would show the arrogance of the authors who say "if it's not on the list we are giving you, we have decided you can't post it anywhere on the internet".

I understand that a list of secret canyons can't be published, destroying the purpose thereof, but without knowing which canyons are off limits, the explorer has to be completely innocent and shouldn't be chastised for asking about a certain crack in the earth.

So back to the million dollar question, how was Slot Machine to know he was exposing sacred canyons?

[The Good Cop]

Very good questions Sombeech, one thing from your description does jump out to me; at least the way I perceived what I read on the thread. With respect to Slot Machine's questions I entirely agree regarding their legitimacy & that he was treated with an unreasonable lack of respect...but I did not see that coming from the so-called "A-team". What I saw from the folks who I know on that "A-team" list - not a big fan of that term, but whatever, for clarity - (early in the thread, Tom) was a polite invite to a private discussion, offering info. In addition, I saw Tom encourage people to do the canyons cleanly, and to be careful because they are not easy.

That seemed pretty reasonable & respectful to me, am I wrong?

I don't know several of the folks involved in the discussion, so perhaps my understanding of the dynamic is mistaken; but that's what I saw.

I would throw out for consideration the thought that if someone posting a map & questions regarding a canyon were answered in a polite & respectful way about it, that there would be the potential for people to be comfortable with it.

In addition, I don't believe the idea of an exploration preserve precludes the idea of maps being posted; after all they're "posted" on Google Earth for all to see anyway. My understanding of an exploration preserve is that the primary focus is with respect to exploring the canyons themselves without prior specific beta...am I wrong there?

Let me know if I'm missing the mark on my understanding,

Thanks,

Wayne

[spinesnaper]

This thread or any other relating to canyoneering should not be deleted, If your worried about it, Ken, as one of the top posters on this thread, quit posting and hope it will die.



OK, threads don't die. I am not sure I said anything meaningful so I didn't bother to drink the "blog post koolaid."

I think there are a number of object lessons from this thread.

First, as noted above, threads don't die. So if you want to permanently publicize a canyon or a canyoneering trip report, this is a great forum. I think we can all agree that is of incredible service to this community.

On the other hand, if it is not your goal to permanently publicize a canyon or a canyoneering trip report, don't post it here. If you have discovered or think you have discovered a new canyon and you want to share that with the world, this is a probably the essential place to make your post. If that canyon was someone's secret handshake canyon, they may get pissed. This is fundamentally different than placing a bolt into a previously unbolted canyon. Someone who does not feel that bolt should be there can pull the bolt, fill the hole with sand and epoxy and virtually all traces of the bolt are gone. Publicizing a canyon that previously was below the radar of the general canyoneering community puts out the welcome mat.

If you have "discovered” a new canyon, there are alternatives to posting this fact as a public thread. I suspect that Slot Machine could have gotten all of the beta he was looking for by private messaging members of this forum.

I will leave for others to ponder the value, ethics, and ethos of secret canyons. Clearly if you have a secret canyon, a number of factors come into play regarding the utility of secrecy. I openly wonder about that utility if the secret canyon is really an open secret. It begins to remind me of locals only surfing rules. For the most part these canyons are public but we all share a responsibility for their stewardship. Yes, out there where no one is looking you are the law.

I think the idea of unbetaed canyons is intriguing. However, there is a fundamental difference between a secret canyon and a named canyon for which the community has agreed to not provide detailed information to preserve the experience of descending a previously unexplored canyon. Of course anyone who decided that this was some type of elitist exercise might simply post a detailed report here or elsewhere making it easy for canyoneers like myself to ultimately retrace that route with my printed route in one hand and a Mountain Dew in the other (a shout out to Brejcha).

Shane and Kurt, I do understand and appreciate where you are coming from. If you are going to keep a canyon secret, it probably shouldn't be an open secret. One of the reputations of the Bogley Canyoneering forum is that it is unkind to noobs. I think yes it can be, but the community can also be very generous. There are fundamental questions regarding secret canyons: 1) Why are you keeping it secret? Are you attempting to preserve the canyon? Are you using this information to win friends and influence others? 2) When and how does information regarding a previously secret canyon get disseminated? Does anyone have other examples or is this terra incognito? Did it go more smoothly the last time this happened? Or are we just trying to herd a bunch of ringtail cats down a canyon? If that’s the case, it is unrealistic to expect the process to be anything but chaotic.

Wayne, I also think that Slot Machine’s post could have been met with a respectful private message and a request to remove the public post. We of course do not know if parties offered to take him down the canyon in return for removing his post.

Ken

[Sombeech]

One of the reputations of the Bogley Canyoneering forum is that it is unkind to noobs.

If this is the case, we need to fix this. Where can we start?

[ratagonia]

...

Wayne, I also think that Slot Machine’s post could have been met with a respectful private message and a request to remove the public post. We of course do not know if parties offered to take him down the canyon in return for removing his post.

Ken

It was met with a respectful private message, and no request to remove the public post. An offer to take him down it would have occurred soon after.

He denied - the first time anyone has denied, actually.

SM said he found the message "demanding". I do not have a copy of the message, so I don't know, but I remember it as being short and to the point.

Tom

[ilipichicuma]

If this is the case, we need to fix this. Where can we start?

I actually thought the forum was really welcoming when I joined. Just sayin'.

[DesertDuke]

I would not have called my "initiation" particularly welcoming.

[spinesnaper]

I actually thought the forum was really welcoming when I joined. Just sayin'.

Cliff

That is my personal experience too with the exception of a few snarky comments, and an occasional admonishment. However, I am not out there pushing the envelope. I also have a pretty tough skin and recognize that it is easy to be insensitive and offensive in an online post. Rereading this entire thread, I suspect that Bob (aka Slot Machine) may be of the opinion that this forum is pretty unwelcoming. This wasn't his only thread that has gotten a bit thrashed.

Ken

[jman]

Well I know DeathCricket had a snarky comment at Juaquin.Phoenix (1 time poster) and I reminded to be nicer to noobs in which he quickly apologized for (thank you again). However, J.P. was the one who instigated the name-callin in the first place. You can't be coming in with guns a blazing to the firum and expect to get away unscathed.

[spinesnaper]

Well I know DeathCricket had a snarky comment at Juaquin.Phoenix (1 time poster) and I reminded to be nicer to noobs in which he quickly apologized for (thank you again). However, J.P. was the one who instigated the name-callin in the first place. You can't be coming in with guns a blazing to the firum and expect to get away unscathed.

Assuming of course that J.P. was an actual 1 time poster and not a proxy for a longer term member of the Bogley community.:kicknuts:

Ken

[nat]

I understand this, but the question is, how does the eager canyoneer know the canyon is part of that secret beta group - the "Preserve", or if it's truly a first time discovery? How do they refrain from publishing beta? Where is the "allowed canyons list" to compare against? If it exists, is it complete? And if it's complete, that would show the arrogance of the authors who say "if it's not on the list we are giving you, we have decided you can't post it anywhere on the internet".

I understand that a list of secret canyons can't be published, destroying the purpose thereof, but without knowing which canyons are off limits, the explorer has to be completely innocent and shouldn't be chastised for asking about a certain crack in the earth.

So back to the million dollar question, how was Slot Machine to know he was exposing sacred canyons?

In my opinion, there really is no "preserve". If someone goes out on their own, finds a canyon using google earth or whatever, descends it, and then posts pictures and beta, that's fine, and if someone else wanted to keep it secret, well..., that's the way the cookie crumbles. Of course, if someone is shown a canyon by another, on condition of not publicizing it, they should obviously keep quiet about it (if they have any sense of self respect). I understand why some don't want to make public what they have explored, and have no problem with that at all. But if anyone else finds it on their own, they can certainly do whatever they want with the beta they have.

Nat

[ratagonia]

In my opinion, there really is no "preserve". If someone goes out on their own, finds a canyon using google earth or whatever, descends it, and then posts pictures and beta, that's fine, and if someone else wanted to keep it secret, well..., that's the way the cookie crumbles. Of course, if someone is shown a canyon by another, on condition of not publicizing it, they should obviously keep quiet about it (if they have any sense of self respect). I understand why some don't want to make public what they have explored, and have no problem with that at all. But if anyone else finds it on their own, they can certainly do whatever they want with the beta they have.

Nat

Well and simply stated, sir. :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

I would not have called my "initiation" particularly welcoming.

I'm sorry Duke. I used your question to make a point, but I did so in a rather snarky way. Please forgive me, and welcome to the Forum, rough and tumble though it may be, at times.

Tom :moses:

[The Good Cop]

I think that's a great way to describe it Nat. I also believe that nothing I have heard or read from folks who explored those canyons (I'm stopping that "A-team" business in my posts at least) suggests anything even slightly to the contrary to what Nat described. The folks who were asked to not post things were folks who had agreed to not post things; the guy who came up with the stuff on his own was invited to talk about it privately & then make up his own mind. That seems reasonable & respectful to me.

Wayne

[bruce from bryce]

I am amazed by the length of this thread. In the past many discussions on Bogley dissolved into 'Man ****s Dead Horse' and other subjects that had absolutely nothing to with the original idea. which showed the immaturity of many in the group. I applaud those that have persevered to keep this one going on the original subject.

bruce from bryce

[Randi]

[QUOTE=mdd;486477][LEFT]Well, I

[Slot Machine]

I originally removed my posts in protest of issues that have now been resolved.

I've reposted my original statements and will refrain from deleting or modifying my posts in the future.

Bob

[oldno7]

I originally removed my posts in protest of issues that have now been resolved.

I've reposted my original statements and will refrain from deleting or modifying my posts in the future.

Bob

Good on ya Bob:2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Good on ya Bob:2thumbs:

x2

[Iceaxe]

Is there any beta on the Dante's? They must be good if they inspire "outrage... in the canyoneering community".

Since these canyons are about to come into season....

Purgatory
http://climb-utah.com/Powell/dante-purgatory.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/purgatory01.jpg


Inferno
http://climb-utah.com/Powell/dante-inferno.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/inferno01.jpg


Limbo
http://climb-utah.com/Powell/dante-limbo.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/limbo01.jpg


Paradiso
http://climb-utah.com/Powell/dante-paradiso.htm

http://climb-utah.com/Powell/Files/paradiso01.jpg


The B-team has been busy.... More canyons from the area are on the way soon as I get a chance to write them up....


Enjoy... :popcorn:

[penmartens]

Beta for the Dantes can also be found at no cost here:
http://bluugnome. com/canyoneer_tripreport_list_ticaboo-mesas_uth.aspx

[deagol]

Beta for the Dantes can also be found at no cost here:
http://bluugnome. com/canyoneer_tripreport_list_ticaboo-mesas_uth.aspx

:2thumbs: