American Canyoneers needs your input!

[msmnificent]

Have you logged onto the new American Canyoneers group yet? The group has been formed with the primary intent of working on canyoneering access, in part, by promoting conservation, safety, and education. We want you to participate in the discussion regarding these important issues. One project that is in the early development stages that you can give input on right now is the process of reporting on and learning from accidents to try to reduce future accidents in canyoneering. To do this, check out the forum on Accident Report Progress and provide your feedback!
Find it at americancanyoneers dot org.
Thanks and happy canyoneering!
-Malia

[Deathcricket]

http://www.americancanyoneers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66


Malia and I have begun working on the Accident Report process. Our intent is not to try and place blame, but to try and determine the conditions that existed that may have contributed to the accident.

We are hoping you will be part of this process and provide feedback about how we can improve the questionaire (its below).

Our plan is as follows:
1 - Post the questionaire on the forum (its below) for two weeks for feedback.
2- Review your feedback.
3- Integrate your feedback into a 2nd draft of the questionaire
4- Test the questionaire on a recent canyon accident, by asking participants to complete the questionaire.
5- Write up an accident report based on the completed questionaires.
6 - Submit the questionaires along with the accident report on the forum for additional feedback regarding the overall process, our conclusions from the questionaires, etc.

Below is a rough draft of the questionaire we will ask participants to complete when involved in a canyoneering accident.

The parts between paranthasis are the common traps in decision making. The question below each trap is designed to try and determine contributing factors.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[b]Accident Report Questionaire[/b
]Date of Incident: ____________________________ Date of Accident Report: __________________________
(These questions are designed to get the “big picture”)
Region: __________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Weather Conditions: __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________
(We are trying to get a good idea of the group dynamics that would contribute to decision making.)

What type of group was this?
Guided ____ Friends/Family ______ Boyscouts _____ Newly Acquainted ____
Was there a designated group leader? _____________ (If yes, who?) ___________________________
Were there any participants under 12? _________
What is the general level of experience for each member of the group:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

(Familiarity Bias)
Have any of the members of the group descended this specific canyon previously? ______

(Acceptance Bias)
Did anything occur between canyoneers that made you feel uncomfortable?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

(Commitment Bias)

Before committing to the canyon, were there any factors that made you reluctant to change plans?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________

In hindsight, were there any factors that should have caused you to consider changing your plans?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________
(Expert Halo:)

From your point of view, did you try to contribute to decision making?
Was your input considered?
Please explain:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
At the time the incident occurred….did the group dynamic or decision making process change in any way? _____________ If yes, please explain…
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

(Scarcity Bias:)

What attracted your group to choosing this canyon?
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Summary of Incident:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________
Kudos (items the group did well to decrease the impact of the incident):
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Recommendations (items implemented correctly that would have avoided the incident):
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
Assessing members names and email addresses:
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

May we contact you for more information:
Name: _______________________________ Phone: _________________________________
Email Address: __________________________________________________ ______________________

I doubt everyone wants to go through the huge hassle of browsing your entire site looking for a single thread, hope you don't mind I linked directly to it.

I dunno, seems too formulated and rigid to me. I think having an accident is a deeply personal issue and people should be free to express it in a more "organic" way. I like to hear the story and what details are important to the person who experienced it. Filling out a questionaire seems to diminish the experience. It's like filling out a form about your last sexual encounter, it's better in story mode and hearing the person tell it in their own words.

[ratagonia]

Thanks for digging out the link, DC. some concern about an actual link being censored, here at Bogley Inc.

Stories are great, but they don't contribute much to the safety of the community, especially when people leave out key details or dodge responsibility. Trying to find TRENDS in what causes accidents is even more problematic, thus an organized methodology is required.

Filling out the form does not relieve one of the responsibility of telling it as a good story, around the campfire. Attention to actual truth not a requirement... :naughty:

Tom :moses:

[Deathcricket]

Interesting theory I guess, would be interested to hear the results. in my opinion accidents are only reported for the following reasons.

1. It's an exciting story and makes a great tale or survival, overcoming adversity, or escape.
2. They made a mistake of some sort and they want to come to grips with it, maybe help others avoid said mistake.
3. They got caught. Someone saw them, heard about lifeflight, concerned family members blew the whistle, other canyoneers stumbled upon them, etc. They feel the need to defend themselves or their actions and "set the record straight".

In none of these cases would people prefer to use a standardized form. But I agree it's a good place to start gathering data, or trying to. Keep us updated on how successful this marketing strategy works out for ya. Could make for some interesting spreadsheets in the next couple years. Assuming people actually use it. Good luck though.

[accadacca]

I would be interested in reading periodic updates on the overall progress that the AC is making without sifting through all the forum threads. It would be great to have a simple page called "news" or something linked from the AC main/home page that could be easily accessed and read by those seeking these types of updates, but don't want to search for it. :popcorn:

[CarpeyBiggs]

The board is posting minutes from their meetings. Right now, that's probably the best place to see what they're up to.

http://www.americancanyoneers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=51

[Deathcricket]

$50 per year membership dues? Holy Crapage! I can't even bring myself to register for free on the site. :eek2:

[CarpeyBiggs]

$50 per year membership dues? Holy Crapage! I can't even bring myself to register for free on the site. :eek2:
:ne_nau:


3. Membership
a. Two people working on it for now—coming up with a fee structure, etc.
b. Proposed: $50 per year dues with some sort of tangible product provided to members?
c. Other ideas?
d. Do we have a threshold on what the annual fee should be?
e. Proposed alternative: $25 basic, and higher rate option for people who want to provide more support? Lower rate will attract more members, and with a larger member base the AC group will have more credibility/influence.
f. Proposed alternative: Tiered rates, including discounts for students, and individual rate, a couple’s rate, a family rate, and a higher rate for those who can/wish to provide more support?
Nothing looks finalized, so far as I can tell...

[Iceaxe]

Not that anyone asked me..... but $50 a year is too much. :cool2:

Just curious.... how is this accident form supposed to relate/improve access? And why does the AC think folks will take the time to fill out the forms? I don't think anyone ever filled out an accident form when the ACA tried a similar approach. I understand a lot of this is still in the development stage, I'm just kinda wondering where this is all headed and the reasoning behind it.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Not that anyone asked me..... but $50 a year is too much. :cool2:
I agree. I would doubt that it's actually going to be that high, but I suppose it's up to us as community members to send feedback to the board. The reason the minutes are posted though is so the board can get a better feel for exactly what will best help the community. If $50 will keep people from joining, then the community should make it known. The obvious question is what will the money be used for, exactly... And what are the benefits to membership, exactly? Seems like those details are yet to be determined, and once they are, maybe it will all make more sense?



Just curious.... how is this accident form supposed to relate/improve access? And why does the AC think folks will take the time to fill out the forms? I don't think anyone ever filled out an accident form when the ACA tried a similar approach. I understand a lot of this is still in the development stage, I'm just kinda wondering where this is all headed and the reasoning behind it.
I can't answer definitively... However, I know there is some academic muscle behind it. From what little I know, Troy at the U of U and Steve from BYU-I have been doing a lot of research on canyoneering accidents over the last few years. My guess is that analyzing the data will help assist land managers in developing more efficient SAR protocols, and target areas that can help the most. Will probably shed light on user days compared to backcountry accidents, compared to permits, etc...

Just my guess though.

You can always ask on the AC site, where the guys doing the research are more likely to answer.

[Deathcricket]

The obvious question is what will the money be used for, exactly... And what are the benefits to membership, exactly? Seems like those details are yet to be determined, and once they are, maybe it will all make more sense?

Yeah good point bro. I guess once you know what you get for $50, $30, $25 it might make more sense. Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit with my last comment. Even $50 isn't too much when it goes to a good cause, really. Carry on!

[restrac2000]

Accident studies don't have much direct affect on access. However, if done properly, they can have indirect benefits. Avalanche educators starting directly incorporating McCammon's feedback into their curriculum as early as 2005 I believe. The heuristics and trends allowed them justify focus more on the the "human dynamics" of education, where in the past the focus had been on hard skills. Several companies completely rearranged the material in the courses based on the findings, specifically how certain levels of education translate into behavior in the field.

Now, this could be applied in canyoneering as well. It will likely be at least 5-10 years before strong enough results could be justified to change the manner in which educate students. Nonetheless, if we can show land managers that we are researching our own community and adapting when possible then we may be able to further justify access into any questionable areas (such as those that have seen high incidents of accidents). Highly uncertain but I personally don't see much harm in the process.

As the questionaire is structured now, I see very little benefit to SAR protocols or resource questions. That could change but the questions don't seem to reflect any possible conclusions to those fields.

Also agree that $50 is too much for an annual fee. But it all depends on the "benefits" to the membership. I would rather not see any consumer benefits attached to the membership but I am holding off om much input right now (I am a vocal enough member as it is). Will be interesting to see the minutes from the next meeting.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

Yeah good point bro. I guess once you know what you get for $50, $30, $25 it might make more sense. Perhaps I jumped the gun a bit with my last comment. Even $50 isn't too much when it goes to a good cause, really. Carry on!

While access is a great value in the grand scheme of things.... I think most people making a purchase want something they can actually touch, at least in this time of instant gratification.

That combined with the fact that Canyoneers are a notoriously cheap.... err.... economical group when taken as a whole. If we were talking the off-road crowded I don't think they would even blink at $50, but canyoneers tend to want a real bargain for their dollars spent.

[Iceaxe]

Highly uncertain but I personally don't see much harm in the process.

I also don't see any harm in compiling the data, I was just curious what the general use plan for it was at the moment. I'm also wondering how many people would actually take the time to bother filling out the form. It's long and doesn't look like it would be much in the way of fun. I figure Bogley is lucky to get a one paragraph incident report after and accident. Sometimes getting that much is like pulling teeth.

[restrac2000]

Fair concern. Also fair to note the study being emulated was done as a meta-analysis on existing reports, i.e. no self-reporting. I have noted my concerns about self reporting on the American Canyoneers site. Wording and structure is extremely important to remove the various biases that all of us. Tom talked a lot about these issues in regard to the Zion surveys years ago. Different situation but similar consequences.

Phillip

[peakbaggers]

http://www.americanalpineclub.org/p/anam
The above link is to "Accidents In North American Mountaineering" and may be a useful guide in this discussion -you can learn a little about how they collect data, purposes, etc. They spend a great deal of time analyzing the dynamics of reported accidents, probably far more than what's in mind here, but I have found their reports very instructive over the years. I really dislike the newspaper, radio & TV reports of climbing or canyoneering accidents. They are ususally misinformed as to the exact location, and what really happened & are useless for reliable info. I like some detailed accident reports. They can be helpful in avoiding making the same/similar mistakes. If involved in an accident, I'd want others to know what happened so they can avoid the same. There may be legal issues in admission of fault, but as noted earlier, blame placement is not the ultimate goal, though I'm sure that in the reporting, evidence of blame may easily surface.
In regards to the $50/per person fee, - yep, I consider that too high. Family discounts would be advisable. We just have too many recreational activities we like to do and associations that want our support. $25 would get my support. $50 is pushing it. I doubt that any tangible item offered (like water bottles, T-shirts, bumper stickers, etc) as an incentive would attract me to pay more, unless of course,they were throwing in a new 100 ft. rope! In that case, my check will be in the next days mail!:haha:

[Branin]

Has there been thought given to approaching the Access Fund about a partnership (or even a canyoneering division). It's an established organization with lots of members, reasonable coffers, and mostly good relationships with land managers. Could be a partnership worth exploring. Just my $.02

[ratagonia]

Has there been thought given to approaching the Access Fund about a partnership (or even a canyoneering division). It's an established organization with lots of members, reasonable coffers, and mostly good relationships with land managers. Could be a partnership worth exploring. Just my $.02

I did some work for the Access Fund, quite some time ago, and have established contacts there. Being part of the Access Fund seems unlikely. Using them for coaching and coordinating comments we are already doing, at least on an informal basis. Learning from them is certainly part of our gig.

Tom :moses:

[Randi]

$50 per year membership dues? Holy Crapage! :eek2:

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I won't even buy a COSTCO card at that price! Good luck to the Org for whatever they're trying to do, but I cringe at the thought of organization for the sake of organizing. I guess that's why they kicked me out of the San Gabriel chapter of the ACA early on. I'm interested to see what develops but not interested in the least in any sort of imposed structure/method/stifle-my-innovation-with-rules when I go outdoors. And now an accident form? Accidents are not a laughing matter, but I find this funny....I really do. And already talk of merchandising? OH MY! It reminds me of SpaceBalls!

Lone Starr: But Yogurt, what is this place? What is it that you do here?
Yogurt: Moichandising.
Barf: Merchandising? What's that?
Yogurt: Moichandising! Come, I'll show you. [to the Dinks] Open up this door.
[Yogurt walks over to a wall filled with Spaceballs merchandise.]
Yogurt: Heh-heh. Come! We put the picture's name on everything!
[everyone is staring in amazement]
Yogurt: Moichandising! Moichandising! Where the real money from the movie is made. Spaceballs: the T-shirt, Spaceballs: the Coloring Book [holds up a Transformers comic book], Spaceballs: the Lunchbox, Spaceballs: the Breakfast Cereal! Spaceballs: the Flame Thrower!! [fires a blast from flame thrower]
Dinks: Ooohh!
Yogurt: The kids love this one. And last, but not least, Spaceballs: the Doll- me.
[Yogurt squeezes the doll, which says "May the Schwartz be with you!"]
Yogurt: Adorable.

[Deathcricket]

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I won't even buy a COSTCO card at that price!

OMG I love spaceballs!!! Regarding Costco though, if you get the premium membership ($100) they actually pay you back. It's not a lot but I get a check back for like $150 at the end of the year. It's based on how much you spend there. You basically have to spend $2500 to break even, which is pretty much one TV purchase, and they even will refund your membership fee if you are unsatisfied with it. I would encourage you to check it out. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

I thought the iBOD was tasked with getting the organization incorporated, providing some very basic frame work to begin work under, and setting up an election for a board of directors.

It was my understanding that a lot of what the iBOD is doing now was supposed to be done by the elected BOD and the election was supposed to take place in the spring? Did I miss something along the way? Was an actual BOD elected?

It just seems to me that accident reports and merchandise type decisions should be the BOD's job, along with things like direction and guidance.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I agree Shane. Seems like a bit of cart before the horse right now. :ne_nau:

[Wolf]

Well, I don't agree with Shane. I think bylaws, 501c3 status, accounting system, logo's, membership dues, committees are all part of the process to get this off the ground. I also don't want this process to take place in a vacuum behind closed doors. Safety is part of it, getting peoples input and making it better is also part of it. Malia and Troy put the effort out there, spent their free time researching and coming up with a plan. Give your input, make it better. Travis is going to post on american canyoneers site, membership, benefits, dues and such. FYI $50 for membership dues was discussed during the last board meeting, membership is not going to be $50. Participation and input from everyone is welcome. Hell, I even asked Shane to be part of access...

WOLF

[oldno7]

I agree Shane. Seems like a bit of cart before the horse right now. :ne_nau:

x2

[Iceaxe]

Wolf, it just seems to me that getting a BOD elected should be job one.... and I don't see that happening, which concerns me. From the outside looking in it appears the iBOD has lost sight of what they were elected to do, which was to handle incorporation and to get a BOD in place. They were not elected to set agenda, establish membership dues and design t-shirts..... Or maybe my ideas of what an iBOD is supposed to accomplish and your view differ..... but this wouldn't be a problem if we had an elected BOD steering the ship and not a temperary interim-BOD.

Honestly I'm interested in helping once I see a BOD elected and a course of action set.....

[CarpeyBiggs]

I kind of figured they'd set membership dues, simply because how do you have members without paying dues? And how do you elect a full time BOD without members?

I was hoping they'd set the organization up as a legal entity, establish the bylaws, and then establish a way to get a membership, allow full dues paying members to vote for an established BOD, who would then lead on behalf of it's membership. Perhaps I misunderstood what the purpose of the iBOD was?

However, it does sound like the legal stuff is well underway. So I'm happy to wait and see where this all goes. It does seem a little strange to get too far down the road without the foundation being laid, however.

[ratagonia]

Is kind of a chicken and egg problem!

The organization has to have legal status, bylaws etc. before much of anything can be done. - check, well underway.

The organization needs to have some goals, intents, and maybe start working on some stuff, before people will be interested in joining.

In order to have an election, you need to have members, ie, people that have joined. Bylaws would be a good thing to have in place then too.

So, while I appreciate Shane's point, that this is really intended as an interim Board of Directors, I also think it naive to think that people will join the organization without some actions being taken, to give a sense of what the organization IS and could do. At the very least, it would give something for people to talk about during the BOD elections - either pro-what is happening, or anti-what is happening.

Could set a low dues level pre-election, an interim dues level, say 10$.

May I suggest, Wolf, that it would behoove the board to work on setting a date for a real BOD election, which involves (thinking out loud here);

1. an election date.
2. a membership cutoff deadline for voting in the election.
3. bylaws written, commented on and revised before the election, partly so the bylaws can be voted up or down by the election.
4. dues, at least interim, set, etc.
4. etc.

My observation is that "setting a date for an election", once you drill down into the details, is a little more complicated than just setting a date. Thus, I suggest to Wolf that this is something that needs to be worked on, and to Shane, thank you for your comments, yes, we are working on that, and please, your vigilant patience is requested.

"Spring" seems a little soon. "Summer" might be a better choice. "Fall" seems a little far away.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

I kind of figured they'd set membership dues, simply because how do you have members without paying dues? And how do you elect a full time BOD without members?

What says the BOD has to be elected by a membership that paid for the privilege to vote?

It wouldn't hurt my feelings any if the first BOD election was open to ALL canyoneers, and not just card carrying members. The organization is going to be small at the first election and if nothing else I can see the BOD being populated and dominated by one or two canyoneering cliques without a broad base of voters.

Anyhoo.... These are the type of options and ideas I was hoping an iBOD would explore before picking out fixtures for the executive bathroom.

[Branin]

I did some work for the Access Fund, quite some time ago, and have established contacts there. Being part of the Access Fund seems unlikely. Using them for coaching and coordinating comments we are already doing, at least on an informal basis. Learning from them is certainly part of our gig.

Tom :moses:

:2thumbs:

[travis]

Hi Fellow Canyoneers,

We are getting closer to getting everything in line to start accepting paid membership for AC.

Here's the lowdown that we are thinking so far....

Regular Member: $35
Student Member: $20

What you get for the $:
1) A one year membership with American Canyoneers including a personalized membership card.
2) Invitations to Special Events
3) A good feeling in your heart knowing you are supporting access and conservation of canyoneering resources
4) Discounts on gear, training, and food (everything a growing canyoneer needs)

We already have a number of businesses that have offered discounts of 10%-25% for active members. On a side note - if you are a business interested in offering a discount contact me via travismcdan at gmail.com with your information.

Sooner than later, you'll be able to come to this website and purchase a membership which will give you access to the "Members Only" section containing the appropriate access info for all the discount offerings and special events. Pretty rad!

So that's about it for now - let us know any thoughts you have.

Thanks! :afro:

[Iceaxe]

let us know any thoughts you have.

Just one question at the moment.... Does the money some of us already donated to get this off the ground count toward our membership?

And a couple of comments.... I still think $35 is a little steep.... my though is charge $25 and get twice the numbers. When dealing with land managers I think you will discover having the official backing of a large number of canyoneers will help your cause more than having a large bank.

[travis]

Just one question at the moment.... Does the money some of us already donated to get this off the ground count toward our membership?

And one comment.... I still think $35 is a little steep.... my though is charge $25 and get twice the numbers. When dealing with land managers I think you will discover having the official backing of a large number of canyoneers will help your cause more than having a large bank.

I cannot speak to the former - above my pay grade.

But, noted on the latter. Thanks.:afro:

[Iceaxe]

You should consider adding a corparate sponsorship where business that make a contribution get a link or something from AC. Maybe several different tiers of corparate memberships so small organizations like Bogley can make a contibution and not get lost among the big dogs like Petzl.... anyhoo... that's my 2 cents.

[travis]

Also in the works.

Thanks Shane!:afro:

[Wolf]

The criteria for electing the BOD is posted on americancanyoneers. Please provide input on the AC site.

WOLF

[Deathcricket]

The criteria for electing the BOD is posted on americancanyoneers. Please provide input on the AC site.

WOLF

Can't you just provide a direct link? How hard is it to copy and paste... You guys over there seem to be under the impression we want to search your entire site for single thread topics. I assure you this is not the case.

[Iceaxe]

If you want to reach the largest cross section of canyoneers possible in one swipe and get them to actually read the material consider cross posting the major highlights of American Canyoneers, with a link to follow for those that might be interested in reading the fine print.



Criteria for BOD election
The interim board of directors came up with the criteria for electing the BOD:

1. Vision and mission statement (done)
2. Bylaws and incorporating documents (in progress)
3. 501c3 paperwork filed (will be started after incorporation)
4. 75 members
5. 01may start the nomination process, vote 01june for BOD

501c3 paperwork filed with 75 members will trigger an earlier election date. Nominations will start with completion of both those requirements. If the 501c3 papers is not filed by 01 May, elections will proceed regardless. In the mean time we will continue working on the various committees. Membership will be open for enrollment in the first week of February after we get input on fee structure.

WOLF

http://www.americancanyoneers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=137

[ratagonia]

Can't you just provide a direct link? How hard is it to copy and paste... You guys over there seem to be under the impression we want to search your entire site for single thread topics. I assure you this is not the case.

A direct link in the past was Zapped by the Bogley management, Deathcricket. Thus, AC posters are shy about providing direct links.

The direct link is: http://www.americancanyoneers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=137

I believe the idea is to have discussion about the American Canyoneers governance topic over on the AC forum, so that all may have a little back and forth. Certainly posts on Bogley are read, but those who are alienated by Bogley would perhaps like to interact in discussion on this topic. Contrary to Ice's opinion, "those alienated by Bogley" are also members of the Canyoneering Community.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Direct links in the past have been Zapped by the Bogley management, Deathcricket. Thus, AC posters are shy about providing direct links.

:roll:

Please keep the extreme exaggerations to a small roar...

To the best of my knowledge.... Exactly ONE link was zapped as spam by a mod who has only a curious interest in canyoneering and exactly zero interest in canyoneering politics.

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

:roll:

Please keep the extreme exaggerations to a small roar...

To the best of my knowledge.... Exactly ONE link was zapped as spam by a mod who has only a curious interest in canyoneering and exactly zero interest in canyoneering politics.

:cool2:

Thank you for correcting the record, Shane.

I was EXPLAINING why the link was not originally posted. Thank you for stating, for the management, that links to AC are OK.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Thank you for stating, for the management, that links to AC are OK.


My understanding is that Scott and Wolf have agreed that links in BOTH directions are acceptable, provided they are kept within reason.

FWIW: the zapped link on Bogley was restored after discussion with other mods and Wolf. Part of the problem was reverse links to Bogley were not welcomed by some of those affiliated with American Canyoneers.

[accadacca]

That link zap was months ago (and yep restored)...old news and there have been links posted to AC since then (before this thread) from Bogley.

At the end of the day, canyon access (AC) topics/issues will be discussed all across the web (bogley, yahoo, facebook, etc, etc). Expecting the AC topics to only be discussed on the AC site is not realistic and foolish if you want to reach a much larger slice of the community.

IMO, you must raise the issues to the community at large and let the dialog sprout organically all across the web. It will then come from multiple sources and mediums. Enabling the AC to get maximum traction and make the impact that they are seeking.

My .02 cents.

[Wolf]

Mr. Accadacca, I agree, there's going to be discussion everywhere, including around the campfire. Americancanyoneers success is in all our interests. Opening areas that are closed now, knowing what the rules are so that areas remain open, influencing land owners and National Park Service benefits all.
Mr. Death cricket, it's not "you people" that didn't provide the link, it was me. Next time I will include it.
Shane, lets talk about links. Every post I've seen from you includes a link to your personal web site. You personally benefit by providing that link how many thousand times? I don't think bogley would be happy if I was self promoting. I guess that's the difference between having a financial interest in a site and not. And you talk about having links within reason.
So, Mr. Iceaxe, what do you want to do. Are we just going to do battle and spar, or work together. I personally am going to pay $100 for my $25 membership, because I want to see this succeed and I have no financial interest in any of this. What are you going to do? When americancanyoneers is successful, you stand to gain more then most by having more areas for beta available and more interested enthusiasts.


WOLF

[reflection]

To Wolf S_ _ _ _ _ _ _
From a Prospective Contributing Canyoneer (and organization)
I/we have $ money/funds we wish to put in the AC pot. 501c3
Is there an AC bank account set up yet?
I have your reported address, but not your phone number; I'd like to speak with you, soon!
You can be contacted at?

ACA iboard members?
Is it expected/planned, that some/all temporary board members will shift into formal board status?
And will other board members potentially be added? And what is the projected size of the new board?
Bylaws & Articles will (hopefully set this out.)
*possibly some of these matters will be delayed until a formal board sits?

AC, a new group, with a new fireworks show. Myself and others have offered to waive a few sparklers.

[Deathcricket]

Mr. Death cricket, it's not "you people" that didn't provide the link, it was me. Next time I will include it.

The original poster of this thread also didn't include a link to the topic he/she was referencing. So hence the terminology "you people" was used, as me seeing a trend or pattern of behavior, twice now in the same thread. But thanks for the "attempted" correction to my verbiage. I was unaware of the soap opera type "butthurtness" between Bogley and AC and was simply under the impression you wanted us to browse your entire site for a single thread.

Regarding links, I think Iceaxe's site is very useful and greatly appreciate links to it. Truth be told I actually came to Bogley from his site (searching for info on Subway). Right now AC seems interesting but not really that useful. But if has the potential to become so in the future. Everyone appreciates links to useful information. So I would think the motto would be to allow links both ways until it becomes tiresome. I don't actually see AC really going anywhere, doesn't seem that focused, too expensive, and not a huge benefit to canyoneers. Seems to me like an "exclusive club" for the huge ego's and nothing else. But would love to be proven wrong and will follow the project with interest. But paying $35 to attend some cool party or do some super secret canyon doesn't really seem worth it right now. I haven't even been to half the cool canyons on Iceaxe's site. Paying a subscription to him is totally worth it though, IMO.

Just my .02$ of course. :2thumbs:

[Wolf]

reflection...PM sent

[ratagonia]

To Wolf S_ _ _ _ _ _ _
From a Prospective Contributing Canyoneer (and organization)
I/we have $ money/funds we wish to put in the AC pot. 501c3
Is there an AC bank account set up yet?
I have your reported address, but not your phone number; I'd like to speak with you, soon!
You can be contacted at?

ACA iboard members?
Is it expected/planned, that some/all temporary board members will shift into formal board status?
And will other board members potentially be added? And what is the projected size of the new board?
Bylaws & Articles will (hopefully set this out.)
*possibly some of these matters will be delayed until a formal board sits?

AC, a new group, with a new fireworks show. Myself and others have offered to waive a few sparklers.

Much of this is covered over at the website: http://www.americancanyoneers.org/forum/index.php

Tom

[Wolf]

Dear Mr. Deathcricket:
"Butthurtness" my butt doesn't hurt, in fact I think it's kind of sexy being 53 yrs old. It's also not "my" ego that's the concern. So according to your logic it should be okay for Tom to post a link to his site on every message. He also provides excellent products to members. Maybe I could add a link to my favorite home builder or favorite porn site since you started talking about butts.
Shane provides valuable information for canyoneers, I have no problem with that. Shane has added some valuable info on the AC site, ref Arches, which will be incorporated after access comes on line. But, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Look, it's easy sitting on the sideline quarterbacking, going I'll see if I'm "pleasantly surprised". Add no monetary fund even though you directly benefit. It's a whole other issue being in the trenches putting it together. It's your organization as much as mine. Come be part of the solution.
I forgot the title again, I hope that doesn't bother you...

WOLF

[Iceaxe]

Shane, lets talk about links. Every post I've seen from you includes a link to your personal web site. You personally benefit by providing that link how many thousand times? I don't think bogley would be happy if I was self promoting. I guess that's the difference between having a financial interest in a site and not. And you talk about having links within reason.

You really lost me here.... exactly which links of mine are you talking about? Not that it really matters, as I take full advantage of all linking opportunities available to me. Anyone that hasn't figured that out by now just isn't paying attention.

But the linking issue discussed above was never about ME and Climb-Utah, it was between Bogley and American Canyoneers and what would be acceptable between the two forums.... apples and oranges... If you want to discuss establishing links between Climb-Utah and American Canyoneers then I'm your man.



So, Mr. Iceaxe, what do you want to do. Are we just going to do battle and spar, or work together. I personally am going to pay $100 for my $25 membership, because I want to see this succeed and I have no financial interest in any of this. What are you going to do? When americancanyoneers is successful, you stand to gain more then most by having more areas for beta available and more interested enthusiasts.

WOW!!! that was kinda harsh.... considering the amount of work I have put into canyon access over the years working with both land managers and SAR teams. I'm happy you are interested in access issues and have taken some action, but if you are going to head up an access organization you really need to get a better understanding of who has been doing what the past 15 years. Several people have been doing serious access work long before American Canyoneers came along.

Heck.... I've even helped your organization. I made a small monetary contribution, I have provided your organization with several access issues that needed immediate attention. I have provided information and feedback to several of your BOD members that have approached me for advice, guidance and contacts. I've probably done some other really cool stuff that I've already forgotten.... yippee.... give me a pat on the back....

So.... I guess the part that concerns me the most at the moment is how little you actually know about what is going on in regards to access (at least in Utah which is the extent of my realm). So I'll be happy to give you the benefit of the doubt at the moment as I know you are a total noob at this access stuff. But you might want to do a little research and talk with a few land managers, maybe a AC BOD member or two, perhaps your accident team, maybe a couple of SAR teams before making too many a judgements. How much additional support I give American Canyoneers in the future is still an open subject with me. But either way, with the AC or without the AC I will continue to work towards access.

Now Mr. Wolf... do you have any other questions for me?


:cool2:

[restrac2000]

Since the interaction is occurring here I will critique here.

I have strong hopes for the American Canyoneers for the coming years. The transparency thus far has been encouraging. However, I think I have strong reservations about anyone in the iBOD engaging in such conversations as this. The AC is officially a political organization and its communication should reflect such efforts. I would hope to see very few interactions such as this on internet forums as I believe it undermines the respect of the organization as well as the already strained connections within the community. We can learn from a decade+ long history how quickly a single person's style and interactions can paint the reputation of an entire organization.

Wolf, I admire your efforts thus far. You took talk and put it into action. I look forward to watching the organization blossom and hopefully strike a cord with a large membership base. But these forums are a double-edged sword and I would argue that they are not the best venue for engagement for discussing the type of details that are now polluting this thread.

Phillip

[Deathcricket]

Dear Mr. Deathcricket:
"Butthurtness" my butt doesn't hurt, in fact I think it's kind of sexy being 53 yrs old. It's also not "my" ego that's the concern. So according to your logic it should be okay for Tom to post a link to his site on every message. He also provides excellent products to members. Maybe I could add a link to my favorite home builder or favorite porn site since you started talking about butts.
Shane provides valuable information for canyoneers, I have no problem with that. Shane has added some valuable info on the AC site, ref Arches, which will be incorporated after access comes on line. But, a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Look, it's easy sitting on the sideline quarterbacking, going I'll see if I'm "pleasantly surprised". Add no monetary fund even though you directly benefit. It's a whole other issue being in the trenches putting it together. It's your organization as much as mine. Come be part of the solution.
I forgot the title again, I hope that doesn't bother you...

WOLF

1. Tom frequently links to his site. He has some awesome photos, trip reports, and store. They are always appreciated and I've clicked through them several times to read up on his awesome adventures and I personally own 3 of his ropes. Same with Dan Ransom, awesome website/blog and seriously a joy to click on his links. If anyone wants to put a direct link to their website in their sig it's no big deal at all. Trying to criticize Ice for linking his website via sig is utterly ridiculous and nearing retardation levels, quite frankly.

2. You should probably do a little more surfing if you are going to be communicating via web formats. Your utter lack of knowledge in this area is appalling. Not having a clue on how signatures work and not understanding basic internet terminology are 2 factors that are seriously going to hinder you, for example. (I feel I should at least help you out)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ButtHurt

ButtHurt
An inappropriately strong negative emotional response from a perceived personal insult. Characterized by strong feelings of shame. Frequently associated with a cessation of communication and overt hostility towards the "aggressor.Perhaps now you can understand my earlier comment to mean that their were bad feelings and resentment. And nothing of a sexual nature which you seem to be hinting at. But you are so way out in left field I guess it doesn't even matter really. *shrug*

3. The "armchair quarterbacking" comment is probably warranted and valid. But you will find I'm very passionate about causes I believe in. I simply don't believe this org will achieve any valid results, and would rather not waste time/money on it. Pretty much every comment you're posted so far further confirms my suspicions. But you have some great people working with you who I do believe in and respect. Once I see some progress besides a super cool hangout for bros, I will probably come on board as well. As I do wish you luck!

[Wolf]

There is no doubt you have done a lot for the canyoneering community. You have a lot of knowledge dealing with land owners and managers. That was never the issue. There are a lot of other individuals that deal in the same realm: Ram, Tom, Kip, Rich to mention a few, there are many more out there. You also at least make a partial living selling beta, access is an intricate part of that. So here comes americancanyoneers who want to deal in access in a non profit format. Information available to anyone free of charge. Can climb utah and AC coexist? How do you see that happening without you having 100% control of everything?

The Noob

[CarpeyBiggs]

I agree with Phillip. This is a disappointing exchange to see air publicly, and so quickly too. Wolf, don't undo all your hard work by getting involved in this. There are legitimate concerns being brought up, but they are clouding the real issue here.

Here's the deal. It seems like AC is in a catch 22. In order to file for nonprofit they need more money to pay a lawyer to get this done right. We don't seem to have a clear understanding of how much. Maybe $1500? Maybe $4k? In order to get money, it seems they need to offer memberships. People are reluctant to pay for memberships without knowing what they are paying for, or having an actual clear understanding of what the organization will do. It's a very fair reservation to have. No need to be offended by it.

To keep it simple, I think AC should just say - we don't have the money to pay a lawyer to file the paperwork. We need $1500 more (or however much.) However, by discussing merchandising plans and membership tiers and accident reports and what not, the iBOD is only confusing the issue. AC needs money in order to become a legal entity. There is not enough money yet. Without the money, progress is halted.

How do they raise that money? By having paid memberships? Seems unlikely people are going to sign up, and in enough numbers to raise the necessary money by that method alone, especially so early in its infancy. The only other option, as I see it, is to ASK for those of us who will be potential members to put up the money up front, so that the organization becomes formal.

Is that what needs to happen? If so, just tell us that's what's up. I'll put up $200 more dollars if it will help. I bet there is at least 10 more people who will do the same. Probably 20. Problem solved.

Let's get this organization a lawyer and make it happen.

[Iceaxe]

There are a lot of other individuals that deal in the same realm: Ram, Tom, Kip, Rich to mention a few, there are many more out there.

Yes sir, lots of people doing good stuff. :2thumbs:



You also at least make a partial living selling beta, access is an intricate part of that.

Technically I lose money on Climb-Utah at a pretty high rate, and by that I mean its much more profitable for me to work at my day job instead of playing with Climb-Utah, which I regard as a hobby/toy. I do Climb-Utah for a lot of reasons, but money isn't one of them.



Can climb utah and AC coexist? How do you see that happening without you having 100% control of everything?

Where in the hell do you get this stuff from? I have asked for zero control of AC, I want zero control of AC. I'm still not sure if I even want anything to do with AC as I'm still on the fence watching the progress. If I desired any control or official capacity what-so-ever in AC I'd just run for the BOD.

I'm really not sure why you consider me an antagonist? Maybe because I haven't jumped on the bandwagon and started loading supplies?

Unless I'm missing something, the only thing I have done is offer input and opinions when asked, and perhaps provided an observation or two.

[oldno7]

So the AC's has now become Wolf's personal, Us vs. them.
Just what I don't want.
I didn't know the AC had a spokesman(wolf), I thought an ibod was to get everything started and put in motion an election for a BOD.(couldn't happen soon enough)
Seems as though what was started, and supported by a large contingency, has now become a select few, from one small group:facepalm1:
Really, what diversity is in the ibod? I see a preaching to your choir group.

I'm an occasional off road guy, I own an atv, who represents these ideals and method of access?
And don't say they are not a part of canyoneering when they are, and have been used for Grand canyon, Parashant and other access.
How bout boats and Lake Powell access, who represents this small group?

Yep, not impressed with "your" AC , Wolf.
but hey, we're just here from bogley, you don't want our support.

I've personally witnessed members of the "ibod" using this position to their, and maybe others benefit by claiming to be on the BOD for AC.`



Without an "elected BOD" in a position to be ousted by members in the next election, this group is destined to fail and fast.........

Still sitting back and wondering, who's "really" running this charade.

Guess I'll hang out here and if I see no need for the AC--oh well..........:ne_nau:

by the way--got my 2 canyons in this weekend, how bout you?

[oldno7]

Heres an access/land use example, wolf.

Do you and your group support draining of Lake Powell and returning natural flows through the Grand Canyon, or
do you support working with the Lake Powell NRA/Navajo Nation, in providing uncomplicated canyoneer access throughout the Lake?
Can there be both?
Where do you stand?

It's no secret that Glen Canyon contains possibly the highest concentration of canyonerring potential, maybe in the world.

[oldno7]

Oh, and wolf--could you post a link to the AC by-laws which prohibit a member from posting with a link to there own for profit website, thanks.

[ratagonia]

2. You should probably do a little more surfing if you are going to be communicating via web formats. Your utter lack of knowledge in this area is appalling. Not having a clue on how signatures work and not understanding basic internet terminology are 2 factors that are seriously going to hinder you, for example. (I feel I should at least help you out)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ButtHurt
Perhaps now you can understand my earlier comment to mean that their were bad feelings and resentment. And nothing of a sexual nature which you seem to be hinting at. But you are so way out in left field I guess it doesn't even matter really. *shrug*


I guess it then surprises you, DeathCricket, that the term "ButtHurt" may not be in circulation among all that many members of the canyoneering community. I checked down at the Ward last Sunday and amongst the fine folk of Orderville, it did not seem to be in common use. Didn't get much of a survey going, since the Bishop give me "that look" and suggested I vamoose. Again.

Should we just tattoo "L"s on our foreheads if, surprise surprise, we assume it means what the words mean in English? And maybe take offense to it, since we were trying to have an actual conversation. Here let me make that easier for you:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conversation

con

[ratagonia]

So the AC's has now become Wolf's personal, Us vs. them.
Just what I don't want.
I didn't know the AC had a spokesman(wolf), I thought an ibod was to get everything started and put in motion an election for a BOD.(couldn't happen soon enough)
Seems as though what was started, and supported by a large contingency, has now become a select few, from one small group :facepalm1:
Really, what diversity is in the ibod? I see a preaching to your choir group.

I'm an occasional off road guy, I own an atv, who represents these ideals and method of access?
And don't say they are not a part of canyoneering when they are, and have been used for Grand canyon, Parashant and other access.
How bout boats and Lake Powell access, who represents this small group?

Yep, not impressed with "your" AC , Wolf.
but hey, we're just here from bogley, you don't want our support.

I've personally witnessed members of the "ibod" using this position to their, and maybe others benefit by claiming to be on the BOD for AC.`

Without an "elected BOD" in a position to be ousted by members in the next election, this group is destined to fail and fast.........

Still sitting back and wondering, who's "really" running this charade. Guess I'll hang out here and if I see no need for the AC--oh well..........:ne_nau:

By the way--got my 2 canyons in this weekend, how bout you?

Seriously...

WTF Kurt? Smashed your hammer with a thumb? Half a bottle of Old #7 addling your brain? What is this, Get the Noob Night????

You're way out of line. So are you, Shane. DeathCricket I am used to being a complete A** - it's just the way he's built. But Shane and Kurt, c'mon, don't be such douches. Count to 10 before post. Heck, count to a hundred! You jump the Wolf like the Pallin family in a borrowed Huey. Show SOME degree of fairness - at least land and shoot em from the ground!!!

Wolf can be combative - he's a terrier-type. Rarely backs down from a fight. In person, you'd see the wry smile on his face showing it to be sport. But here on the Interwebs, things seem to spiral out of control might quick, unfortunately.

This all started from a slightly inappropriate action taken by a Bogley moderator, that got straightened out pretty fast, to everyone's advantage. A couple cheap shots were thrown around, and now you guys are making up accusations left and right. Or, in Utah that would be right and righter. I find it rather rude. So just CHILL. Relax, have another snort of the Jack. Go shoot some bottles or something. Take your medication, no matter what the voices say.

Wolf and I appreciate the criticism. Thank you for pointing out our inadequacies. But the form of the criticism is a little over the top.

***

No canyons for me. But I did get in 11 Sundance Movies, with my best ratio ever: no stinkers, no mediocres, 8 good ones and 3 greats!

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

So Tom
You seem to answer a lot for wolf.
I view wolf as one who comes to bogley telling us what he and his chronies are doing at the AC site, seems quite a bit like another site we used to frequent.
I thought the idea with the AC was to have a diverse group of canyoneers that shared access issues, all I'm seeing is a group set up to move personal agendas---AGAIN.

Please, prove me wrong....Show me the diversity.

Thanks for your concern of my health(smashed finger or drunk) neither would be the case, I can't recall the last time I've been drunk, but I do enjoy a drink when I get home from work at night.
Maybe instead if insulting me, you could try to explain the questions I've asked wolf, as it seems your his spokesman.

Tom
is the only way for you to hold the intellectual high ground, to reduce that high ground to a prairie.

And as an aside--it's very difficult to smash a hammer with ones thumb, just sayin' oh wise one......:haha:

[Felicia]

Really?

How the hell can this group get started with all this bashing? Is there no room for growing pains?

Is this how you facilitate and grow your other interests?

What happen to giving the Association a chance?

Clearly The Feburary Blahs have begun!

Wolf, I hope you do not get discouraged. Shane - got a bored attorney on staff? Kurt - don't want to pay, then take time off from play. Tom - nice attempt with February on the next calendar page.

Give the IBOD a chance to get off the ground.

[ratagonia]

Thanks for your concern of my health(smashed finger or drunk) neither would be the case, I can't recall the last time I've been drunk, but I do enjoy a drink when I get home from work at night.

...

And as an aside--it's very difficult to smash a hammer with one's thumb, just sayin' oh wise one......:haha:

If'n you hit the Old No. 7, THEN figure you really oughtta finish those bins for the firewood because it might snow tonight...

Not exactly how it happened, but close enough. As was said: "looks like you hit the wrong nail".

T

[restrac2000]

Support. Seems like a we are focusing on personality differences which can only further pollute the issue. We are not passive actors. Instead, we seem to be actively engaging in actions that will further divide our larger community into antagonistic factions. While we have seen this happen time and again in the past this seems to be happening in an unusually premature fashion. And in this case it seems all "sides" seem to be instigating the tense situation instead of working towards effective mitigation.

I really don't think anyone wants that as an outcome......

Phillip

[MSchasch]

Really?

How the hell can this group get started with all this bashing? Is there no room for growing pains?


What happen to giving the Association a chance?


Give the IBOD a chance to get off the ground.

Thanks for that.

Its difficult (and probably intimidating for some) to want to interact/give your 2 cents when the same 4-5 people that reply to every little thing, are busy clogging a thread with arguments and nay-saying.

Maybe its time to back off and let others get a word in. Maybe then some positivity can be found.

[RAM]

Thanks Felicia

What the hell is going on here? Take a look at the AC site. Really, read the threads. Good people are trying to do good things. Its damn well is diverse group. People on the IBOD ,and elsewhere I have never heard of. Shane has posted great stuff toward access. Wolf has been a warrior toward moving the thing along. Look and you will see other heroes. No one is set on any power play. The thing drips of altruism outside of what is happening here. Kurt, its nothing like what was. There is no center to the thing. Good advice from Phil and Dan. Put the personalities on hold. Give the benefit of the doubt. I don 't give a damn (sorry LDS folks, for effect) about the personalities. A cheap way to posture ourselves out of opportunity to create something good. If something good comes, it comes from multiple sources. If it isn't needed, that will show. Come on! OK, what else? Concerns come from here, wondering what is being decided on the AC by an IBOD. NOTHING is being decided by the IBOD. People are throwing out their best efforts (seeds) with NOTHING in concrete. Elections are coming. Some strong critics better damn well be running, or....or ...or .never mind. The timing of what an IBOD should do? A fine question. Don't assume they have sinister motives. They should also put on their thick skins for what some may say. Those that criticize, should consider joining and effecting change. Its all open over there. Their best efforts.Make them yours? Nice reasonable questions. Good reasonable reply from Tom a few days back, outlining what is being structured, for future approval. Good information there. Suggestions on fee amounts here? Great. It has lowered the suggested price, by those who are facing the the pressure of paying for incorporation fee and other expenses. And as long as we are here? Is there a person with law resources or no money concerns that wants to be a sugar daddy? It ain't that much money. Cricket...you came so highly recommended. I was told to get out with you. Your an excellent skeptic and critic. What else can you do? Shane, Wolf, Kurt...let it go and refocus on the possible. NOTHING is decided. NOTHING is determined. The game is wide open. Its ours to create and I see talent everywhere.
Respectfully
Ram (who has not done enough himself)

[The Good Cop]

First of all, I brew beer for a living, so for all those to whom it is a part of their lives & beliefs, can we relax over a couple? For those to whom it's not, I enjoy entirely sober conversation too :haha:

Support to Ram, Mike, Felicia, Dan, Phil (and any others I forgot and/or failed to mention) for what I perceive as attempting to engage in constructive discussion. Respect for the troubled history of personality conflicts in the Canyoneering community and what I perceive as the justified sensitivity to potential concerns which can arise (learning from history is a good & healthy thing). Hope that folks who have made significant efforts themselves and who have been perceived (accurately or not) as being unnecessarily critical can engage in manners which benefit all and lead to better outcomes. Encouragement to Tom for his enthusiastic support of what he sees as positive efforts, but concern over the (maybe, maybe not) justified or maybe/maybe not functional aggressive tone of his post.

I have the great good fortune to know some folks who are engaged in these efforts. Whether people's individual engagements have been by active participation on the iBOD or in active discussion in a number of places or active involvement with the many interested parties in the canyoneering world; my great hope is to get to share canyons with all of you. I do hope that despite the many concerns we can find a comfort level with working together on topics that I believe would make all our canyoneering lives richer.

I've been lazy recently keeping up on what's occurring over on AC's site; if Dan's characterization is accurate, count me in for chipping in some support right now to deal with the legal financial hurdle...I'll head over to AC later today and see what I learn. Entirely outside of my personal impression of the people working for AC (something which is just my own personal bias) I view chipping in $50 or $100 for the sake of AC being able to get off the ground as a low cost/possible high reward situation. In my case I spend significantly more than that just in gas money for each canyoneering trip I make, so the possibility of helping along an transparent and democratic member-driven group seems good to me, fwiw.

Kurt, I don't know enough to feel like I can have a well-considered opinion on the decommissioning of the Glen Canyon Dam, but I would certainly have to be convinced that there is important value to it, particularly if, as I understand it, it is already 50 years into a maximum lifespan of ~ 150 years, and it will become more burdensome & less efficient with every year that goes by. Nevertheless, while that's a very worthwhile topic for discussion, to my limited ability to understand, it appears like your question is a setup for Wolf to say something inflammatory, rather than something constructive...am I wrong?

Cheers to all & best wishes for common & constructive ground,

Wayne

[Bo_Beck]

I view wolf as one who comes to bogley telling us what he and his chronies are doing at the AC site, seems quite a bit like another site we used to frequent.


I resemble that remark! Kurt..a lot of time and effort has been invested so far to insure that exactly "That" doesn't happen. I would have thought your "inflamation" would have subsided? Mine has. Time to move on. Get involved again. Smile...it really confuses approaching frowns.

[ratagonia]

Heres an access/land use example, wolf.

Do you and your group support draining of Lake Powell and returning natural flows through the Grand Canyon, or
do you support working with the Lake Powell NRA/Navajo Nation, in providing uncomplicated canyoneer access throughout the Lake?
Can there be both?
Where do you stand?

It's no secret that Glen Canyon contains possibly the highest concentration of canyonerring potential, maybe in the world.

I can answer that for you, Kurt, since it is a question of philosophy.

AC is envisioned as a practical organization. Thus, it is likely that the AC, when formulating policy, will avoid tilting at windmills (like draining Lake Powell); instead working closely with land managers to secure access for canyoneers. We anticipate working with Glen Canyon NRA and the Navajo Nation Chapters.

The next board of directors may decide to head off in a different direction, but that is the general thrust of the vision for access at the moment.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

You're way out of line. So are you, Shane.

Way out of line? I don't think so.... I have only answered questions and accusation that Wolf has carelessly tossed around. I took great care to frame my answers inside the borders that Wolf established and tried not to step outside of them. Tom, your time would probably be better spent coaching Wolf up on not posting false accusations, not creating fictitious enemies and not chopping his supporters off at the knees.

I'm still trying to figure out why Wolf thinks I'm the enemy with regards to AC? I have supplied AC with funds, material and knowledge in the hope that it would be successful. Anyhoo.... that's a question I would really like to have Wolf answer. He is welcome to PM me if he feels more comfortable with that.

[ratagonia]

Way out of line? I don't think so.... I have only answered questions and accusation that Wolf has carelessly tossed around. I took great care to frame my answers inside the borders that Wolf established and tried not to step outside of them. Tom, your time would probably be better spent coaching Wolf up on not posting false accusations, not creating fictitious enemies and not chopping his supporters off at the knees.

I'm still trying to figure out why Wolf thinks I'm the enemy with regards to AC? I have supplied AC with funds, material and knowledge in the hope that it would be successful. Anyhoo.... that's a question I would really like to have Wolf answer. He is welcome to PM me if he feels more comfortable with that.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not sure having ME coach someone on civility would be particularly effective; thus that job has been given to Ram. My job here is to try to smooth things out, and attempt to redirect venom on myself, since I'm used to it.

I think Wolf equates you with Bogley. Perhaps conflates is the more accurate word.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

I'm not sure having ME coach someone on civility would be particularly effective; thus that job has been given to Ram.

Good Choice :2thumbs:



I think Wolf equates you with Bogley. Perhaps conflates is the more accurate word.

Then perhaps your job should be to coach him up on the history of canyoneering politics.

As you well know…. Bogley is populated by a sizable population of canyoneers that were run-off, moderated off or out right banned from the other canyon forums and organizations for various reasons. That makes Bogley a tough nut to crack as many here have been burned once by a similar organization and now they want to know what they are fighting for before marching blindly into battle a second time. That is an important dynamic to understand.

[Iceaxe]

I think Wolf equates you with Bogley. Perhaps conflates is the more accurate word.

And my next question.... why does Wolf (and several others in American Canyoneers) see Bogley as the enemy?

Outside of a small hiccup at the beginning I believe Bogley as an organization has also been very supportive of American Canyoneers, including making a sizable monetary donation and allowing access to its sizable membership base.

[CarpeyBiggs]

And my next question.... why does Wolf (and several others in American Canyoneers) see Bogley as the enemy?

Outside of a small hiccup at the beginning I believe Bogley as an organization has also been very supportive of American Canyoneers, including making a sizable monetary donation and allowing access to its sizable membership base.
Shane, you are completely right. Bogley is not the enemy. But to suggest American Canyoneers sees Bogley (or you) as the enemy is ridiculous. Let's recap who is actually on the iBOD.

Malia McIlvenna
Rich Rudow
Bo Beck
Wolfgang Schuster
Sonny Lawrence

At the moment, that is the entirety of American Canyoneers. There are no members yet, only an iBOD and a bunch of people hoping this thing plays out. Characterizing "several" of the AC folks as having an issue with Bogley is totally unfair. Wolf, for whatever reason, seems to be airing a personal irritation with you. Who knows why, I certainly don't. But guess what, it doesn't friggin' matter. The only way this thing works is if we get a representative organization of as many canyoneers as possible. Whether they play on bogley, or yahoo, or facebook, or meetup, or canyoneering.net, or whatever doesn't matter! We get it. Everyone has beef with everyone else. Seriously, WE GET IT. No seriously, we absolutely, without any question, completely and entirely GET IT.

Enough already!

The iBOD has one task right now. Get the legal filings done so that this becomes a legit entity, and can start getting members. And then there can be a proper election, BY THE MEMBERS, to determine it's course in the future.

What exactly is keeping this from happening? I ask again... Is it about the money? If so, I'll put in $200 so we can get a lawyer hired and finish this. There are plenty more people willing to help. THAT is where the effort should be focused. Not on this petty bullshit, it's exhausting and worthless.

[Deathcricket]

I agree with Phillip. This is a disappointing exchange to see air publicly, and so quickly too. Wolf, don't undo all your hard work by getting involved in this. There are legitimate concerns being brought up, but they are clouding the real issue here.

Here's the deal. It seems like AC is in a catch 22. In order to file for nonprofit they need more money to pay a lawyer to get this done right. We don't seem to have a clear understanding of how much. Maybe $1500? Maybe $4k? In order to get money, it seems they need to offer memberships. People are reluctant to pay for memberships without knowing what they are paying for, or having an actual clear understanding of what the organization will do. It's a very fair reservation to have. No need to be offended by it.

To keep it simple, I think AC should just say - we don't have the money to pay a lawyer to file the paperwork. We need $1500 more (or however much.) However, by discussing merchandising plans and membership tiers and accident reports and what not, the iBOD is only confusing the issue. AC needs money in order to become a legal entity. There is not enough money yet. Without the money, progress is halted.

How do they raise that money? By having paid memberships? Seems unlikely people are going to sign up, and in enough numbers to raise the necessary money by that method alone, especially so early in its infancy. The only other option, as I see it, is to ASK for those of us who will be potential members to put up the money up front, so that the organization becomes formal.

Is that what needs to happen? If so, just tell us that's what's up. I'll put up $200 more dollars if it will help. I bet there is at least 10 more people who will do the same. Probably 20. Problem solved.

Let's get this organization a lawyer and make it happen.

See this is genius and well written, also impossible to argue with and fair. If you aren't, I would certainly encourage you to run for BOD. They need more people like you in there. I would also match your $200 and mail you a check right now. I just need to be certain it's going for a good cause and not a bunch of bureaucratic BS, accident report loggings, secret member only elite parties/clubhouse, and other ridiculous projects. If you are on the "inside" and can tell me this won't happen like my gut seems to be telling me, PM me your address and I'll mail you money right now. Serious...... Lawyer fees are no joke and I agree with expenses like this.

[ratagonia]

See this is genius and well written, also impossible to argue with and fair. If you aren't, I would certainly encourage you to run for BOD. They need more people like you in there. I would also match your $200 and mail you a check right now. I just need to be certain it's going for a good cause and not a bunch of bureaucratic BS, accident report loggings, secret member only elite parties/clubhouse, and other ridiculous projects. If you are on the "inside" and can tell me this won't happen like my gut seems to be telling me, PM me your address and I'll mail you money right now. Serious...... Lawyer fees are no joke and I agree with expenses like this.

Very generous of you DC. While your deal is with Danno, I personally guarantee your satisfaction per the parameters stated. Decision date on that August 1, 2012. On that date, tell me you are not satisfied, and I will send you back $200.00.

I am also sending in 200 today.

Tom

[trackrunner]

Really?

How the hell can this group get started with all this bashing? Is there no room for growing pains?

Is this how you facilitate and grow your other interests?

What happen to giving the Association a chance?

Clearly The Feburary Blahs have begun!

Wolf, I hope you do not get discouraged. Shane - got a bored attorney on staff? Kurt - don't want to pay, then take time off from play. Tom - nice attempt with February on the next calendar page.

Give the IBOD a chance to get off the ground.


Support. Seems like a we are focusing on personality differences which can only further pollute the issue. . . And in this case it seems all "sides" seem to be instigating the tense situation instead of working towards effective mitigation.

I really don't think anyone wants that as an outcome......

Phillip


Thanks Felicia
...let it go and refocus on the possible. NOTHING is decided. NOTHING is determined. The game is wide open. Its ours to create and I see talent everywhere.
Respectfully
Ram (who has not done enough himself)


First of all, I brew beer for a living, so for all those to whom it is a part of their lives & beliefs, can we relax over a couple? For those to whom it's not, I enjoy entirely sober conversation too :haha:

Support to Ram, Mike, Felicia, Dan, Phil (and any others I forgot and/or failed to mention) for what I perceive as attempting to engage in constructive discussion.

Wayne

adding my support to these posters & others. this thread has been clogged on lost sight of what it should be about. would be great to have a thread for feedback.

AND


Thanks for that.

Its difficult (and probably intimidating for some) to want to interact/give your 2 cents when the same 4-5 people that reply to every little thing, are busy clogging a thread with arguments and nay-saying.


^^^ I didn't want to provide any feedback when this thread started to run away.
IBOD I think people would support membership when they know what it's going towards. Is the speculation right for lawyer fees. thanks for you future reply.
I also have other ideas on membership & raising funds that I'll share at a later date.

[reflection]

AC Incorporation? Private Attorney (that costs)? There are often tax consequences and organizational nuances that guide drafters of corporate by laws and articles of incorporation. Volunteer groups though who are not buying and selling and involving themselves in the general public marketplace can often (most often) get by with incorporation papers found on the State of Utah Corporations web site. They can be completed and then filed for a minimal fee and they most often DO NOT require an attorney being involved. Getting 501C3 status is another step/activity, and that really doesn't require an attorney either. Forms pulled off the net, signed and then filed. (articles of incorporation and bylaws can be borrowed - and copied - from another group, and suited for the interests of AC.) Other options exist. Private attorneys that wish to help, can/could prepare the necessary papers and make the filings and NOT CHARGE the organization, other than for costs of filing for example. The group could have put an attorney on the board, and there was suggestion earlier (by some) that attorneys (singular or plural?) were already on board to assist?. (maybe this meant they were on board as long as they were paid?)

By making these comments I DO NOT wish to get in a fight with, or be pilloried by others. I've been involved with many volunteer outdoor/enviro groups over the years. Most often, attorneys, friendly to or involved with the groups, volunteered services. I'm certain private (volunteer) attorneys, that are active canyoneers are out there, if AC feels they need to have one. And all that money that's going to get sent in, or that is sitting in the coffers; internet/web expenses and junkets of course for the board (hah). Reasonable future financial needs will arrive, I assume.

[ratagonia]

...

By making these comments I DO NOT wish to get in a fight with, or be pilloried by others. I've been involved with many volunteer outdoor/enviro groups over the years. Most often, attorneys, friendly to or involved with the groups, volunteered services. I'm certain private (volunteer) attorneys, that are active canyoneers are out there, if AC feels they need to have one. And all that money that's going to get sent in, or that is sitting in the coffers; internet/web expenses and junkets of course for the board (hah). Reasonable future financial needs will arrive, I assume.

Seems high to me too, but, I do know a couple years ago, the IRS made big changes to the 501c3 requirements, and it is now a lot harder to get and maintain that status.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

I'll offer some food for thought.....

If I were running American Canyoneer membership would be free, at least for the initial six month's. My goal would be to fill the church, get the congregation seated, and listening to the sermon.

If funding the non-profit status is causing a problem skip that for the time being and run it as a business which can be setup for a couple hundred dollars, I know AC has collected enough coinage to do that already. Make the non-profit status a goal to come back to and address once the organization is up and running. Its not like the organization will be making enough money the first year that taxes will be a problem, that is if it even makes any money.

The success or failure of AC in the end will be based on number of members and guidance of the BOD and not coins in the war chest or tax status.

:cool2:

[restrac2000]

If funding the non-profit status is causing a problem skip that for the time being and run it as a business which can be setup for a couple hundred dollars, I know AC has collected enough coinage to do that already. Make the non-profit status a goal to come back to and address once the organization is up and running. Its not like the organization will be making enough money the first year that taxes will be a problem, that is if it even makes any money.

The success or failure of AC in the end will be based on number of members and guidance of the BOD and not coins in the war chest or tax status.

:cool2:

I was wondering about a similar approach as well. Seems that the non-profit status could be a worthy long term goal but not sure how/if it is really needed now.

The only hiccups for that approach may be (from what I have inferred): paypal requirements; commercial donors; and describing payments as "membership". I don't have much direct knowledge of such factors.

I disagree about the "free" method you describe.

Phillip

[Branin]

Then perhaps your job should be to coach him up on the history of canyoneering politics.


Somehow it seems to me that those who aren't in the know (or willfully ignorant[like me]) maybe ought not be brought up to speed... Some of us want to get along with everyone. And have the idealistic dream of one day everyone getting along(ish) with everyone. :-p

[Bo_Beck]

Maybe spoken without the graces of the ibod, but speaking from my observations; the AC is being organized and created with much thought. Thwarting situations that were inherent in the last attempt are big considerations (if not the biggest). It seems to me that every last "minute" of meetings so far have been directed to establish a community that will be beneficial to all concerned people. This would include the canyon'eering' community, potential canyon'eering' community, management of the resources of the canyon'eering' community, folks involved with the dissemination of any and all information regarding canyon'eering', and protection of the right to disseminate this information. Yes, it may seem quite simple to incorporate, but there considerations that must be looked at. What state to file the articles of incorporation in? Liabilities, and indeminification? Bank accounts and payment methods? Recruiting memberships? Pertinent and responsible information to be presented? Bylaws and administration? I know, this doesn't seem to be much, but being certain that it is all done properly with much forethought takes time especially since we all have dayjobs and committments as well. I know that the ball is rolling, and sometimes this takes patience and help of others. I honestly believe that we're headed in the right direction and barring a lot of un-needed heated critisizm, maybe this thing will present itself to the majorities satisfaction. Give it a chance, and take a risk by being involved. I hadn't met any of the ibod members except maybe once or twice before, but I do see a genuine group of proffessionals that are truly concerned with establishing an organization not for their own benefit, but an organization that will become the voice of all people that are involved in a rapidly growing activity. I personally feel that it can and will work. Many issues may not be apparent to you now, but after having served on the board of S.U.C.C. for the last 8 years; seeing that major concerns don't all appear at once; issues sprout, and grow over time and without an awareness and proactivity are resolved without our involvement. Our involvement is the key.

[Wolf]

Well said Bo...

WOLF

[ratagonia]

Well said Bo...

WOLF

:2thumbs: Tom

[trackrunner]

thanks bo

[Iceaxe]

Thanks Bo... :2thumbs:

For what its worth.... I could care less about a membership card, gear discounts, bumper stickers, t-shirts or free Slurpee's.... you can keep the time and money you would spend printing, laminating and mailing my membership card and put it towards the cause.

[restrac2000]

Clearly spoken, Bo.

[oldno7]

Well said Bo

and thanks for just coming here and giving us details and hope.:2thumbs:

[Cirrus2000]

Well said, Bo!

[reflection]

Bo's comments, generally, are to be complimented.

1. 501C3 status. I heard from a number of people the group was going that direction. I mistakenly assumed someone was pursuing a filing. Based on what's been reported though, I'd put that off for the near or mid term future. Probably not a necessity or real benefit to the group. Contributions/donations to a group like that; not really tatamount to making an offer to a charitable organization and getting a tax write off.

2. Corporate Filing. In it's present status it would be as a Non Profit; dues or membership would cover overhead. Where to incorporate? Three IB members in Utah, one in AZ and one in CAL. (none in Nev). For a volunteer group that has no assets or liabilities and meager income or expenses, it wouldn't make much difference what state the incorporation was in. There are minor differences in fees and in the number of officers required.

3. Liabilities, Indemnification. If an individual is guiding or taking people out (for hire), liability insurance is a basic necessity. And in the corporate business world, LLC's are set up by professionals to shield damage claims and liabilities. But in the province of outdoor volunteer organizations, those concerns are really not part of the normal course of business. Is there a circumstance where AC would want or need liability or indemnification insurance/protection? I have no idea. Maybe the parameters of what the group plans to do is outside the normal specter of what outdoor volunteer groups normally involve themselves in.

4. Bank Accounts. Can be set up under an individual or an individual/using a DBA; as a corp with a DBA, or simply under the Corp name. The business account is more pricey than the individual account. These days, a min balance of $1K -1.5 is necessary to allay a monthly bank fee.

5. The reach of AC? "Will become the voice of all people that are involved.... OR will become A VOICE, of those involved in the canyoneering community.

There are already quite a few clans, many chieftans and lots of indians or soldiers involved in the canyoneering areana in America. Many of them pay no attention to any canyon web group and march to their own drum. Lots of others are involved and wish to participate in some capacity in the general movement. Have no idea if ACA plans to partner with AC or visa versa (I don't care). And I don't know about active canyoneers that don't join the ranks of AC. They are somehow bound or directed by a group they don't wish to involve with? (I'm speaking of others, not myself)

6. Caution and Concern? If lots of money is involved, logistics are in question, and other serious questions still abound, I guess folk can wait. Otherwise, targeting itself as a non profit, the incorporation could happen within days and then bylaws and accompanying article of incorporation follow after drafts are circulated and agreed on.

Some folk apparently are already moving, acting in the capacity as assigned agents for AC? I'm talking outside the scope of current IB members. Non profit, volunteer groups can do as they please, generally. No entity (right away) puts a microscope or probe on them. And some, never in fact incorporate, just operate as defacto entities.

That's the nature of groups and organizations. Interests and directions. Can bind and unite; cause others to disassociate or disconnect. Leaders styles, manner; or controlling manner of active participants, can have an impact on potential participants. (Wolf, Bo, (Dan) at least to date, seem to have a very prudent, poised & positive manner.)

[Felicia]

Well said Bo...

WOLF

And thank you ALL for moving forward.

Cheers!

Felicia

[Jaxx]

I got to about page 3. I haven't been around Bogley very often lately. It looks like not much has changed. :roflol:

[Wolf]

FYI, American Canyoneers is going to incorporate in AZ. A lawyer is drawing up the papers and the process should be completed in a few weeks. 501c3 papers to follow...

WOLF

[accadacca]

FYI, American Canyoneers is going to incorporate in AZ. A lawyer is drawing up the papers and the process should be completed in a few weeks. 501c3 papers to follow...

WOLF
Great news! :2thumbs: