Comments, corrections and suggestions sought fo Zion: Canyoneering, second edition

[ratagonia]

I'm starting work on a second edition of the Zion: Canyoneering Book, and would appreciate comments, corrections and suggestions. Please be as specific as possible, when talking about something specific, but comments in general are also appreciated.

You can email me directly CanyoneeringUSA at gmail dot com or post here on this thread. Please do not Bogley PM me.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

PM sent...

:roflol:

What kind of time-line are we looking at for the introduction of the 2nd edition.... or does one exist yet?

[Brian in SLC]

The "foto" in the alcove in the Right Fork isn't Mel Brown...

Cheers!

[Iceaxe]

FYI: You can go into your Bogley Settings (top right) >>General settings >>messaging

And turn off private messaging... and turn on allow email, which is how I prefer things. I also hate PM's and would rather receive emails.

[ratagonia]

FYI: You can go into your Bogley Settings (top right) >>General settings >>messaging

And turn off private messaging... and turn on allow email, which is how I prefer things. I also hate PM's and would rather receive emails.

Thanks, but...

On my screen, the Bogley Settings are mid-left, under "My Settings", then General Settings, etc.

Tom

[ratagonia]

The "foto" in the alcove in the Right Fork isn't Mel Brown...

Cheers!

No fotos in my book - mine are all photos.

Unfortunately, I am unlikely to re-use any of the first edition fot... uh, photos in the second edition.

Tom

[ratagonia]

What kind of time-line are we looking at for the introduction of the 2nd edition.... or does one exist yet?

The plan is to print about this time next year, for release February 2013.

Finalizing the text and photos next Oct/November which tends to slide to December.

Tom

[spinesnaper]

The plan is to print about this time next year, for release February 2013.

Finalizing the text and photos next Oct/November which tends to slide to December.

Tom

Tom

Great project.

My suggestion is fixing the description for the exit route for the right fork.

This is minor but we noticed that when we did Mystery from the trail junction, it was 22 minutes before arriving at the head of Mystery came into view as opposed to the 20 minutes stated in the book. Just thought you might want to fix that.:roll:

Honestly though, whenever I thought there was some discrepancy with between reality and what the book said, it has generally been the better part of valor to act on the book description. On more than one trip we have asked ourselves what would Tom do here and more often than not it was already described in black and white.

Like so many, I was better prepared for these trips thanks to your generous work describing this amazing collection of canyons.

Looking forward to the second edition.

Ken

[Scott P]

The route to Bridge Mountain Arch would make a fine edition, but I guess it's not really canyoneering.

Beartrap might be worth mentioning.

On the Subway route, there is an old cattle trail that reaches the north rim of Left Fork. From memory, it begins just before Little Creek climbs a little and crosses Little Creek near a nice little waterfall before reaching the rim. This route is a little longer than the standard route, but eliminated the need for a car shuttle and makes the Subway route into a nice loop.

The current edition says that once you reach Double Falls in Right Fork, that the goodies are all over and there is nothing but a slog left. I would have to disagree since the side canyons below Double Falls do indeed contain some goodies (pools, waterfalls). If you haven't checked them out yet, maybe take a look.

The book says that the longest rappel in Keyhole is 60 feet. It's been a while, but I don't think it's anywhere near that.

[Iceaxe]

The book says that the longest rappel in Keyhole is 60 feet. It's been a while, but I don't think it's anywhere near that.

The longest rappel is 30'. We do the canyon with a 100' rope and that is extreme overkill.

Back when you had to rig the first rap from the big pondarosa pine it took a 120' rope, which I'm guessing is where Tom orginally got the 60' from.

[ratagonia]

The longest rappel is 30'. We do the canyon with a 100' rope and that is extreme overkill.

Back when you had to rig the first rap from the big pondarosa pine it took a 120' rope, which I'm guessing is where Tom orginally got the 60' from.

Bingo. Give that man a rap ring! :moses:

[Scott Card]

You mean I have to buy another book? :facepalm1:








:haha: Put me down for a signed copy.

[french_de]

I'm starting work on a second edition of the Zion: Canyoneering Book, and would appreciate comments, corrections and suggestions. Please be as specific as possible, when talking about something specific, but comments in general are also appreciated.

You can email me directly CanyoneeringUSA at gmail dot com or post here on this thread. Please do not Bogley PM me.

Tom

Since i got a Kindle Fire for Xmas and have had the chance to reference many types of books ( geology, field guides, hiking guides etc.) on it I am hoping you consider having your next edition available in a Kindle fire format. I would buy both the soft bound and Kindle Format :nod:

Doug French

[canyoncaver]

Would you consider including a more detailed description for the more advanced canyons this time? The old book says something like, "If you need more information than this, then you are a chucky and should not be in these canyons anyway." (paraphrased)

While I agree with your intent in this matter, I would be unlikely to buy the new book unless it had expanded info. Otherwise, my old one still works just fine.

Thanks,
Mr. Chucky

[ratagonia]

Would you consider including a more detailed description for the more advanced canyons this time? The old book says something like, "If you need more information than this, then you are a chucky and should not be in these canyons anyway." (paraphrased)

While I agree with your intent in this matter, I would be unlikely to buy the new book unless it had expanded info. Otherwise, my old one still works just fine.

Thanks,
Mr. Chucky

The old book says, exactly (page 163): "The following canyoneering descriptions are presented in somewhat less detail than the previously described Classic Canyons."

All that stuff about Chucky is stuff from your head, not from mine. :nod:

What further detail would you suggest I add?

My current plan is to move a few canyons up into the Classic Canyon section, thus providing expanded detail on them is part of the plan.

In all seriousness, I wonder if it really serves the public to provide more detail? Can you give me some examples of how more detail would make your trip better?

Tom

[canyoncaver]

All that stuff about Chucky is stuff from your head, not from mine. :nod:

Oh, I know. I was just funnin' you. :haha: I said it was paraphrased!

I'm not sure it would "serve the public" to include more detail, I was just wondering if that was your plan. For example, I think I first did Englestead using your description. It was fine. You gave enough information to safely complete the canyon. Later, I found Todd Martin's website that gives a lot more information on the same canyon. I don't NEED Todd's information to do the canyon, I just find it interesting. We went back to Englestead last year. Having read Todd's play-by-play beforehand did not make it any less interesting, at least for me. Others will disagree.

I know there is debate on how much beta is appropriate. I am not interested in that debate. For me, all I really need to know is longest rap, some idea of water conditions, and anything I need special gear for like a heinous pothole or a lead climb. If there is more information available, I'll read that too and still have fun.

I was just wondering if you would be expanding any of the sparser descriptions. It sounds like you will be, at least for a few canyons. For me, the old book works just fine, but if the new one has more information then I will consider buying it.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.

[canyoncaver]

Also, I do not have your book in front of me, so it is possible that I am thinking of the very short Englestead description on your website and maybe the book does have more info. If that is the case, then please disregard. Some times I get my Tom beta sources confused. I do remember though some of the advanced canyons in the book having pretty short descriptions.

[ratagonia]

Book text is replacing website text on the new site, which should be available in about a month. The beta version is here:

http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com

Tom

[tcott]

More color pictures would be cool.

[trackrunner]

how about hand drawn maps. who uses topo maps? so turn of 20th century
maybe renaming canyons from historical names just for kicks. behunin can become right fork of middle left fork of zion canyon.
save the trees and cram all route descriptions to fit on a small brochure . . .
[/taged for strong sarcasm]

[Scott Card]

behunin can become right fork of middle left fork of zion canyon.
[/taged for strong sarcasm]
Oh, and Heaps should be renamed "Not Behunin"

[trackrunner]

Oh, and Heaps should be renamed "Not Behunin"

gunsight of heaps should be named not behunin

[deagol]

Also, thanks for not using only the metric system and not spelling photos as "fotos"
:nod:

I especially liked the section "What would water do".

[Bo_Beck]

An explanation as to why "Mystery Canyon" isn't "Not Mystery Canyon" and why "Not Mystery Canyon" ends up being a Mystery Canyon for some?

[Exergy]

Add this to the disclaimer so people know your position before buying :haha::haha::haha:



Pick up a couple of Kelsey's book, so he gets the blame.

[yetigonecrazy]

Off Topic but i feel it needs to be addressed.

all of this Michael Kelsey bashing is petty and immature......

if you all dont like him, thats fine....but to be lambasting him with d-bag comments on a forum like this over and over is pretty damn silly.

i dont really care for someone who is a well known figure on this site, his attitudes and his general nature towards lesser canyoneers, but does that mean i make fun of him behind his back? no. does it mean I make snide comments about his book in other threads? no. i shut up, I hold my tounge, and i move on. easy.

dont know why its so hard for you "profressionals" to let shit go sometimes.

does anybody want to point out an entire series of 20+ books THEY have successfully written and published? thats what i thought.

if youre going to act like middle schoolers, then i will tell you what middle schoolers get told: if you dont have anything nice to say, then don't say it. sure, its ok to bash MK over and over because he isn't a force in this community. But if I was to start bad mouthing Tom and his books, the shit storm would never end. Hypocrisy much?

[canyoncaver]

Bro, you got a lot of free time for getting all upset on the internet? You should go hike a few kilometers, you know, go see some PIC and PET, take some fotos, you'll feel better. Don't forget BH & QL and your KP/EP. And most importantly, "DON'T BLAME ME!"

[jman]

Oh great...not this again.....

[Iceaxe]

all of this Michael Kelsey bashing is petty and immature......

Is it fair and immature that people comment or bash on Steve Jobs or Bill Gates?

I see no problem with discussing a 'public figure.' A public figure is someone who injects themselves into the public view in a particular area; i.e., writing canyoneering guidebooks, appearing in canyoneering documentries, offering insight and opinions in news print and magazines on the subject. Once an indivdual has entered the public arena they are fair game for public comment.

Your Mileage May Vary

[Exergy]

Whoaa Crazy :crazy::roflol::roflol:

Now that we're off topic, ain't nobody bashing no one! If anything, it was a jab at Tom. At the time, Tom was just doing a little CYA and redirecting what he saw to be a potential lawsuit (go back to the original thread). All in fun. :2thumbs: Cool. Back on topic now.:toker:

[ratagonia]

Add this to the disclaimer so people know your position before buying :haha::haha::haha:

I don't remember what the original thread was, but it sounds like a snide comment I would make... :cool2::facepalm1::crazycobasa:

Perhaps, Exergy, if you remember, you could link to the original thread.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Is it fair and immature that people comment or bash on Steve Jobs or Bill Gates?

I see no problem with discussing a 'public figure.' A public figure is someone who injects themselves into the public view in a particular area; i.e., writing canyoneering guidebooks, appearing in canyoneering documentries, offering insight and opinions in news print and magazines on the subject. Once an indivdual has entered the public arena they are fair game for public comment.

Your Mileage May Vary

Public Figures. like, Shane and Tom.

T

[deagol]

I didn't see any MK bashing here.
Just sayin .....
:cold:

[tcott]

An explanation as to why "Mystery Canyon" isn't "Not Mystery Canyon" and why "Not Mystery Canyon" ends up being a Mystery Canyon for some?

Just curious, what are the canyons next to Mystery like? Anything good with the right gear so you don't need rescue?

[trackrunner]

Just curious, what are the canyons next to Mystery like? Anything good with the right gear so you don't need rescue?

here is the story behind bo's comment. this canyon is a hazard to knocking rocks on the tourist below you can't get a permit for it.
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/zionrescue1.htm

if these canyons were any good you would have heard of them. search bogley and you can find some first hand accounts of people who have been down them. most are brushy, dirty, lack any good rappels. tom described one something along the lines: why did we do this canyon when we could have done mystery!

[french_de]

Since i got a Kindle Fire for Xmas and have had the chance to reference many types of books ( geology, field guides, hiking guides etc.) on it I am hoping you consider having your next edition available in a Kindle fire format. I would buy both the soft bound and Kindle Format :nod:

Doug French

So No Kindle Huh?

[Scott Card]

Any statements in the book about runoff or post flash flood flowing water and how that changes everything? Just curious so as to assist those who walk while staring at guide books to know that canyons like the Subway go from pretty darn easy in "normal conditions" to down right nasty in runoff.

[ratagonia]

Any statements in the book about runoff or post flash flood flowing water and how that changes everything? Just curious so as to assist those who walk while staring at guide books to know that canyons like the Subway go from pretty darn easy in "normal conditions" to down right nasty in runoff.

There will be talk on each canyon about "seasonal adjustments", thing like in spring, snow melts and flows down the canyons. The start of that is up on http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com

Tom

[ratagonia]

here is the story behind bo's comment. this canyon is a hazard to knocking rocks on the tourist below you can't get a permit for it.
http://climb-utah.com/Zion/zionrescue1.htm

if these canyons were any good you would have heard of them. search bogley and you can find some first hand accounts of people who have been down them. most are brushy, dirty, lack any good rappels. tom described one something along the lines: why did we do this canyon when we could have done mystery!

One we did is called "not worth it". It goes over the pass at the dogleg and drops into Orderville. We used the rope one time, but we didn't have to. Might be hard to get up without a rope there. Awful bushwhacking, and the Bushwhacker wasn't even there.

Oops, I should not have let out of the bag, one of our special, elitist canyons... darn, too late now!

Tom

[ratagonia]

So No Kindle Huh?

I'll look into it, but I cannot give it a high priority.

T

[Exergy]

I don't remember what the original thread was, but it sounds like a snide comment I would make... :cool2::facepalm1::crazycobasa:

Perhaps, Exergy, if you remember, you could link to the original thread.

Tom

You even claimed to be making a "snide" comment in the response :nod: but zero offense taken :mrgreen: If you click the blue box with double arrows in the quote-box, it will take you to the original thread.


There will be talk on each canyon about "seasonal adjustments", thing like in spring, snow melts and flows down the canyons. The start of that is up on http://www.canyoneeringcentral.com

Tom

That would be a great addition. A writeup on seasonal adjustments would have addressed the question I asked in that post (running Behunnin after a snow storm under sunny skies :cold:).