Tommy takes a tumble

[hank moon]

Posted from Tom Jones' (The Empire - er's) FB page:

"... tuesday went out for an exploration w jenny, ram, john d and the rap anchor i set up failed when i was 10 feet off the ground. broke my right wrist a small fracture and got a little bruised up. i am feeling lucky that is all. it is good to be lucky. so - 5 weeks in a cast, learning to type with just my left hand!"

He is trying to minimize typing, and asked me to post here. I saw him last night and took this lovely photo of him posing with Tuco Ramirez, the healing bear with cowboy flair:

49525


Heal up quick, Tom, and I am very glad you are still here.

[dude9478]

Ouch! Glad you are doing alright Tom, could have been much worse :eek2:

[Iceaxe]

Whenever I got hurt my mom would fix me some chicken soup to make me feel better....

49526

Get well soon!

[DRobb]

Yikes! What happened to cause the achor to fail?

[hank moon]

Yikes! What happened to cause the achor to fail?

Tom promises an extensive report once he can type better than 7 wpm again. Looking forward, Senor Jones.

[trackrunner]

I wonder if @Jaxx (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=951) chabidiah @TNTRebel (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=18132) @Chungy22 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=18122) are eager to participate in Tom's debriefing, haha :haha:

[jman]

I wonder if @Jaxx (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=951) chabidiah @TNTRebel (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=18132) @Chungy22 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=18122) are eager to participate in Tom's debriefing, haha :haha:

Lol. That was a good one!

[Iceaxe]

I wonder if @Jaxx (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=951) chabidiah @TNTRebel (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=18132) @Chungy22 (http://www.bogley.com/forum/member.php?u=18122) are eager to participate in Tom's debriefing, haha :haha:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[stefan]

hope ya heal up soon, tom!

in the mean time http://freeemoticonsandsmileys.com/animated%20emoticons/Smile%20Animated%20Emoticons/another%20beer%20please.gif

[Bo_Beck]

Dang anchors! Glad it was only 10' and surely hope you heal up real quick! I found out yesterday (had the consultation on my MRI) that sure enough.....torn rotator cuff! Advantage I've got is that I'm waitin' until January for surgery so's I can heal up over the course of the winter months!

[Scott P]

Tom and Ram went up the hill to do a little slot
The anchor missed, Tom broke his wrist
A cast is what he got
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get well soon.

[Scott Card]

Tom promises an extensive report once he can type better than 7 wpm again. Looking forward, Senor Jones. Wait. Is 7 wpm slow?


Now would be a really good time to confess any canyon mistakes or near misses. :lol8:


Get Well Soon!

(This post took 4 minutes to type... a new record!)

[accadacca]

Sorry to hear. I broke my wrist a few years ago when I wheelied over on my mountain bike. It wasn't fun, but now I am back to 8 wpm. :lol8:

Get well soon...at least its winter time. I guess...never a good time.

Full details about the wrist with x-rays: OVERLOAD = Sagebrush Faceplant (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26922)

TR from the accident: Glenwild Loop TR (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?26900)

[Felicia]

Tom and Ram went up the hill to do a little slot
The anchor missed, Tom broke his wrist
A cast is what he got


Cute!

Tom, here's to a speedy recovery. I'm glad you are ok. *hugs*. :-)

Felicia

[oldno7]

We of course expect a 3 page double spaced document, entailing all the necessary info.

Best Wishes on healing, old man Tommy...

[restrac2000]

Someone looks like they are good prescription drugs.

[ratagonia]

Someone looks like they are good prescription drugs.

I wish....

T

[Cirrus2000]

Look, he can type capitals!

Speedy recovery, Tom!!!

We need one of these with a sling: :moses:

[Pelon1]

Oh Man thats a bummer, hope it all heals well!!:nod:

[tylerhirshfeld]

Fall of the Emperor??? Just kiddin. Get well soon Tom!

[skiclimb3287]

I wish....

T


At least that post only took ~30 seconds...maybe a bit longer for the capital I :haha:

Here's to a speedy recovery!

[moab mark]

looks like you are in good spirits. Get well soon.

Mark

[hike2kolob]

Ouch! Hope you're feeling better soon!

[ratagonia]

Thank you all... Feelin' da love.

T

[spinesnaper]

Tom

It's a darn good thing you were wear a helmet! Hope those bones mend soon.

Ken

[Win]

Somehow I missed this, hope you have a speedy recovery . You know old guys don't heal as fast, I'm living proof of that.

Win

[moab mark]

:popcorn:

[Scott Card]

Patience, he's got old bones. They take longer. Pass the corn :popcorn:

[Jaxx]

Man that sucks. Hope it heals quickly.

[Jaxx]

Tom promises an extensive report once he can type better than 7 wpm again. Looking forward, Senor Jones.

Hmmm. That doesn't sound like the Bogley way. How about we start speculating and second guessing and then condemn him once he does post about it. Don't hold back!

Have things changed in the last few months, I haven't been around for a while???

[DOSS]

Dragon naturally speaking?... don't let the details get fogged by time :)

[maarten.1975]

Best wishes for you and your wrist Tom!
Hope you are 100% again soon!

Drinking or eating lots of dairy products will help you getting enough calcium to reconnect the bones quickly :stud:
Dark-green vegetables and cabbage also have high calcium-levels.
And make sure you enjoy some sun if possible, because sunlight makes our skin produce vitamin D, what is needed to adsorb calcium from food.
And with that I stop with the lesson and wish you all the best

[ratagonia]

Best wishes for you and your wrist Tom!
Hope you are 100% again soon!

Drinking or eating lots of dairy products will help you getting enough calcium to reconnect the bones quickly :stud:
Dark-green vegetables and cabbage also have high calcium-levels.
And make sure you enjoy some sun if possible, because sunlight makes our skin produce vitamin D, what is needed to adsorb calcium from food.
And with that I stop with the lesson and wish you all the best

Danka, Maarten. We also have pills over here and I am eating some of them. :cool2: Tom

[oldno7]

Sooooo:ne_nau:

Tell us your story, it's all about learnin'

[ratagonia]

Sooooo:ne_nau:

Tell us your story, it's all about learnin'

I believe the Bogley Way, which I am the intellectual Patriarch of, is to not worry about the facts and work entirely from speculation. :naughty:

Soon. Getting better.

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

Glad to hear your oldish self is mending.

Looking forward to hearing your bloviation on the subject.

[Cirrus2000]

Bloviation

:roflol:

[Scott Card]

Bloviations maybe but not by a ninnyhammer. :haha:

[Pelon1]

ninnyhammer

Had to get into the Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ninnyhammer) for that one!!:mrgreen:

[nelsonccc]

Should have put a bolt in. Bomber!

[ratagonia]

All the reports are into Hank for minor processing, but he is making a mad dash to SLC so it might be a few days.

Tom

[oldno7]

All the reports are into Hank for minor processing, but he is making a mad dash to SLC so it might be a few days.

Tom

So you've hired a "stand in bloviator"?

I guess if you hadn't told us it was Hank, it could of been a "ghost bloviator"

[Scott Card]

Either that or you got a dictaphone and Hank has been promoted to the Emperor's Assistant. (does that make him Darth Vader?) :haha:

[hank moon]

Hello y'all

You may have heard that Tom Jones recently took a fall and is
thankfully healing up nicely. You may also have heard that a
"Rashomon" of accident reports is forthcoming on this accident.
Rashomon being the title of an excellent film by Akira Kurosawa which
has come to be associated with "...the effect of the subjectivity of
perception on recollection, by which observers of an event are able to
produce substantially different but equally plausible accounts of it.
"

see here for more on the Rashomon effect: http://goo.gl/yio5U

I have not yet read all the reports, so I do not know how different
the recollections are, so let's all find out together, shall we?

The intro by Tom Jones and the first report by John Diener are attached in pdf format.

Tomorrow: reports from Ram and Tom
Friday: a truly unique perspective from Jenny West

Rashom-on!

[Cirrus2000]

Thanks, Hank. You the "facilitator" in this? Neat.

:popcorn:

[Brian in SLC]

Invalid without photos!

Neat. I'll be staying tuned.

I've always thought if 10 people saw/experienced a significant event, you'd get 10 fairly different stories. Interesting.

Thanks!

[oldno7]

HEADLINE NEWS------

The Lack of fluids, seen as cause for the emperor from ratagonia's sudden,fractured descent.

Further Rashomonian bloviations to follow...

[Iceaxe]

"Ram and Jenny got him home and then eventually to the Kanab hospital from there."

Trusting your life to a small town hospital might be the scariest part of this story.

:popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Trusting your life to a small town hospital might be the scariest part of this story.

:popcorn:

You big city snobs... shameful.

Don't worry, if my wrist was really messed up, I woulda driven up to Murray, or at least sent the film up to Doc Rosen for an opinion.

:moses:

[accadacca]

You big city snobs... shameful.

Don't worry, if my wrist was really messed up, I woulda driven up to Murray, or at least sent the film up to Doc Rosen for an opinion.

:moses:
Ha, nice! Rosen was my doc when I tore my MCL in March. Great guy.

[skiclimb3287]

Tom - if you had only been proficient in the sport of Parkour (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?61473-Canyoneering-Worlds-Dumbest-Sports), you would have known how to take that fall without even a scrape! :lol8:

Maybe we should all learn Parkour...it could go hand in hand with many outdoor pursuits...even skydiving :eek2:

Glad you are well on the path to recovery!

[Iceaxe]

If Tom had of landed on his helmet this would all be a non-issue. :haha:

[Scott Card]

:haha:

[Deathcricket]

Should have put a bolt in. Bomber!
Darnit stole my line. :lol8:

Hope you get better bro.

[hank moon]

Hey Kevin, yeah that's me. :)

Here's Ram's take on the event:

[Scott Card]

Very interesting. I need to see these water anchors to really understand what is going on here. I guess if there is no real reason not to fill the thing full then shouldn't that be the rule to follow? I am speaking out of ignorance here but based on the narratives, it seems like that may have prevented this accident.

[ratagonia]

Very interesting. I need to see these water anchors to really understand what is going on here. I guess if there is no real reason not to fill the thing full then shouldn't that be the rule to follow? I am speaking out of ignorance here but based on the narratives, it seems like that may have prevented this accident.

My elbows and shoulders are not so good, so one obstacle was how much I could lift without pain from an awkward stance. But, consistent with The Plan, there were young strong kids around.

"Full"? I don't know how full I can make the bag, and have enough length to do the tie-off. 3/4 full might be the real "FULL".

But really, the choice of placement was the problem, not the amount of fill. :facepalm1:

Tom - up at 4 am to eat food so he can take the next pill. :moses:

[oldno7]

I'll offer up comment

When we use sand as our anchor in a canyon on a sandtrap type device, as it is weighted, it tends to mould to it's environment, creating the maximum amount of friction for this type of system.
This moulded friction is not easily upset by the act of rappeling. When water is used as the primary anchor medium(I've only personally used pot shots and dry bags)it lacks the moulding and setting properties of sand, it therefore is more easily disrupted and requires more friction be built into the system with the rappeling line. Water would tend to be considered a weighted anchor, vs. sand which is both weight and friction.

Settup, would certainly be key using either, with water the more finicky, requiring additional friction incorporated into the system if possible, since your mostly relying on weight. Great, not good, rappeling technique would always be the norm.

Having said that, I consider this team(Tom and Ram) the most expert, experienced, knowledgeable, cutting edge team in the community. Their failing should cause us all to pause. I believe in their rush for new medium to slide through canyons without trace, they have abandoned solid,proven technique(group inspection and approval of anchor and sequencing) I can only guess here, so I will. My guess is that in sequencing these canyons, Jenny always ends up being the last one down, due to weight. Trying to solve this problem, the group invents a new, unproven technique(you build it--you go last)Was Tom backing this anchor before he went(I would assume)? How did the anchor react to others rappeling.

We know that smooth rappeling technique can often overcome light weight rappeler/bad technique. Tom, knowing this offers to go last, although I'm sure there is no one in this group, doing this style of canyon, with bad technique. I'd guess his technique was smooth--until he stopped and restarted. Having done so, the water anchor on top is slightly disrupted, just enough to release it's friction hold and Tom falls the last XXfeet.

I conclude that the nuances between sand and water are greater than one might think, sand being the preferred option when available.
These techniques are stellar(sand/water traps) We will collectively learn from this and move on. Thanks for sharing.

[Bo_Beck]

I'll offer up comment
Water would tend to be considered a weighted anchor, vs. sand which is both weight and friction.


If I'm not mistaken Oldno7, there may be another consideration......I believe that water would also be mass and friction, but also could play the other direction. When water is disturbed that force is often returned because of it's non-solid nature. If you punch a bag of sand you'll leave a dent. If you punch a bag of water it wants to punch you back. My point.....if the bag of water suddenly moves while you are rappelling and then friction bites against the material housing the water...the water still continues in the direction it was moving. If the placement of water was totally vertical in nature, then this "momentum" would be less of a factor, but if the placement were more horizontal in nature then "momentum" may be an impediment for sure.

[oldno7]

If I'm not mistaken Oldno7, there may be another consideration......I believe that water would also be mass and friction, but also could play the other direction. When water is disturbed that force is often returned because of it's non-solid nature.

I think we're saying about the same thing. Sure, friction is incorporated into a water type anchor. It is just more easily released from rope movement or weighting/unweighting. This makes weight, the key player not friction. Thats why I mention adding friction into the system with the rope(if possible), where water is the anchor source.

[oldno7]

Once again--IMO--this is poor technique on a marginal anchor.

Staying low and "quickly" building friction into the system would seem prudent.

If this was in an effort to test a backed up anchor, I apologize.

Photo's "borrowed" from Rams picasa, without permission.

[ghawk]

The only time I've gotten hurt badly was when I got complacent and didn't check things quite as well as I should have. I'm glad nobody is hurt permanently :) I guess the lesson is always always be careful and don't get too confident. Things go bad awful quick when those little mistakes are made. If it happens to some of the very best it can happen to you too! and wear a helmet :cool2: Glad you're on the mend Tom, hope it's quick :nod:

[Iceaxe]

I've noticed canyoneers have a habit of being complacent on shorter rappels. Anchors they would never consider using on a 200' rappel are somehow acceptable on a 30' rappel.

That's probably a bad habit we should all work to correct.

I'm not saying that is what happened here.... just a general observation about rappel anchors in general.

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

Once again--IMO--this is poor technique on a marginal anchor.

Staying low and "quickly" building friction into the system would seem prudent.

If this was in an effort to test a backed up anchor, I apologize.

Photo's "borrowed" from Rams picasa, without permission.

It's not a marginal anchor.

And, also, it's not bad technique. You can't really tell, but on that particular rappel, where he is now, there is only 1/3 weight on the rope, 2/3 on the feet. At the "horizon line" below, those wishing to minimize force put butt on rock and slide over the edge.

Also, he is not last or near-last, as you pointed out.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I think we're saying about the same thing. Sure, friction is incorporated into a water type anchor. It is just more easily released from rope movement or weighting/unweighting. This makes weight, the key player not friction. Thats why I mention adding friction into the system with the rope(if possible), where water is the anchor source.

I wish we had a picture of the placement, so you could all see how incredibly DUMB I was. A bad placement. :facepalm1:

But all these other ideas are also valid. Not sure how much difference they make. I think Kurt said it well - the Sandtrap and Watertrap are actually quite different.

Tom

[oldno7]

It's not a marginal anchor.

And, also, it's not bad technique. You can't really tell, but on that particular rappel, where he is now, there is only 1/3 weight on the rope, 2/3 on the feet. At the "horizon line" below, those wishing to minimize force put butt on rock and slide over the edge.

Also, he is not last or near-last, as you pointed out.

Tom

Maybe I over simplify, to me, there are marginal anchors and bomber anchors.
All of these type anchors(potshot,sandtrap,watertrap,rock chock, etc.) to me, should always be treated as marginal. To call, or treat them as anything different, is misleading to the community.
Tree's, rocks, boulders,most Zion bolts, etc could be classified bomber. If you can stand up, aggressively and safely pre-test an anchor, it is bomber, all else falls into marginal.IMO, and is used accordingly.

I don't see the problem lying with the anchor type so much as the acceptable approach to begin and during these rappels. I've rapped off a 3/4" diameter stick buried in the sand, it was marginal at best but it held due to careful technique, including a lot of rope friction and rope BENDS. I know you have many similar stories.

I do wish I could see pictures of your anchor, it would definitely add further insight.

As with any canyoneering mis-adventure, I'm glad your mostly alright and providing an opportunity to be critiqued.(not easy for the Emperor)

Care to comment on the lack of sequencing:twisted: I think your group failed miserably here. He who builds it, goes last doesn't seem like a rational method.

[ratagonia]

Maybe I over simplify, to me, there are marginal anchors and bomber anchors.
All of these type anchors(potshot,sandtrap,watertrap,rock chock, etc.) to me, should always be treated as marginal. To call, or treat them as anything different, is misleading to the community.
Tree's, rocks, boulders,most Zion bolts, etc could be classified bomber. If you can stand up, aggressively and safely pre-test an anchor, it is bomber, all else falls into marginal.IMO, and is used accordingly.

I don't see the problem lying with the anchor type so much as the acceptable approach to begin and during these rappels. I've rapped off a 3/4" diameter stick buried in the sand, it was marginal at best but it held due to careful technique, including a lot of rope friction and rope BENDS. I know you have many similar stories.

I do wish I could see pictures of your anchor, it would definitely add further insight.

As with any canyoneering mis-adventure, I'm glad your mostly alright and providing an opportunity to be critiqued.(not easy for the Emperor)

Care to comment on the lack of sequencing:twisted: I think your group failed miserably here. He who builds it, goes last doesn't seem like a rational method.

Thank you.

This was commented on in the introduction. Your category of "marginal anchors" is much larger than mine. I don't consider the WaterTrap, properly used, to be a marginal anchor; thus sending lightest last is not a priority. True, the guy in the boat would not have gone last, but I am not that Brando-esque, yet. Sufficient information was generated in testing to indicate that this was a BAD PLACEMENT. If the lights had been on, this would have been placed differently and thus be a non-event.

:moses:

[oldno7]

Thanks, Tom

[ratagonia]

Jenny's version of events:

THE FALL of THE EMPEROR
by Jennae le Mae(den), aka. Jenny West

Exerpts taken (some borrowed, some morphed) from:
E.E.Cummings poem, The Emperor
The Emperor’s New Groove, A Disney movie and
Monty Python and The Holy Grail

The Emperor, Sir Thomas of Mount Carmel,
ventures forth to the desert, to celebrate
a Breath Day. Clad in black garments the
comrades and comradettes descend many a dark
and wet crack. Tittering they dangle from ropes,
small bits of metal and cord. A grand frolic it is!

At nightfall they rally ‘round fires, feast and share great merriment.

“the emperor
sleeps in a palace of porphyry
which was a million years building
he takes the air in a howdah
of jasper beneath saffron
umbrellas
upon an elephant
twelve foot high
behind whose ear
sits always a crowned
king twir-
ling an
ankus of
ebony
the fountains of the emperor’s
palace run sunlight and
moonlight and the emperor’s
elephant is a thousand years old”

In time the masses depart for hinder lands.
Just three remain at the camp of Sandthrax;
Sir Thomas, Big John and Evan the Young.
Soon, from the east, crossing high mountain passes, comes The Ram.
Lastly, driven north by the storms of the south (?Yes, ‘tis true!)
Jennae le Mae(den) arrives.

Sir Thomas: Old man.
Jennae le Mae(den): Woman.
Sir Thomas: Woman, sorry. You are to join us in a canyon upon the morrow?
Jennae le Mae(den): I'm 37.
Sir Thomas: What?
Jennae le Mae(den): I'm 37. I'm not old.
Sir Thomas: Well I can't just call you "woman".
Jennae le Mae(den): Well you could say "Jennae le Mae(den)".
Sir Thomas: I didn't know you were called Jennae le Mae(den).
Jennae le Mae(den): Well you didn't bother to find out did you?
Sir Thomas: I did say sorry about the "old man", but from behind you looked...
Jennae le Mae(den) What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior.
Sir Thomas: Well I am The Emperor.
Jennae le Mae(den): Oh, Emperor, eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.
Sir Thomas: I am your Emperor.
Jennae le Mae(den): Well I didn't vote for you.
Sir Thomas: You don't vote for Emperors.
Jennae le Mae(den): Well how'd you become Emperor then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
Sir Thomas: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft this SandTrap from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Thomas, was to carry it. THAT is why I am your Emperor
Jennae le Mae(den): [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' a piece of cloth is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a cloth rappel anchor at you.
(awkward pause)
Jennae le Mae(den): Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
Sir Thomas: Bloody peasant!
Jennae le Mae(den): Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that, The Ram? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me, Big John? You saw him, Didn't you, Young Evan?
(awkward pause as The 4 consider:)
The Ram: You must spank her well, and after you are done with her, you may deal with her as you like... and then... spank me.
Big John: And me.
Evan the Young: And me too. And me.
The Ram: Yes. Yes, you must give us all a good spanking.
Jennae le Mae(den): And after the spanking we can try rappelling off of water?

Meanwhile, not more than two swallow's flights away, a beautiful little canyon waits, undiscovered. Oh, that's an unladen swallow's flight away, obviously.
They were more than two laden swallow's flights away, four really, if they had the rappel rope on a line between them. I mean, if the birds were walking, and dragging the rappel rope...
Sir Thomas: Get on with it!

And now on to the next scene. A smashing scene with some lovely views, in which The 5 gather round the fire and bold tales are told. Firewater Whiskey is passed ‘round in vessels of Nalgene and in which there aren't any swallows, though I think you can hear a starling...and the scratchings of many mice.

Verily, wearily and finally, in morning’s soft winter light, The 5 ride away.
They know not where or what but agree upon Why.
Dancing ‘cross fins of stone
tracing channels of sand
The 5 arrive at the top of a cavernous slot.

Donning armor and tossing the accoutrements
of adventure about
the excitement is high.

The Emperor sits upon the sandstone throne:

Thus it is decided:

Sir Thomas: Tell me. How does it... um... how does it work?
Jennae le Mae(den): I know not, my liege.
Evan the Young: Consult the Ghost Book of Armaments.
Big John: [reading] Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one.
And Saint Attila raised the SandTrap up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy cloth anchor, that with it thou mayst leave thy canyons pure, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu...
The Ram: Skip a bit, Brother...
Big John: And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Sling. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Ghosting Anchor of Antioch towards thy target who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Jennae le Mae(den): Amen.
The 4: Amen.
Sir Thomas: Right. One... two... five.
Evan the Young: Three, sir.
Sir Thomas: Three.

By and by, one by one, they drop into the unknown depths;
The Ram first, then Big John, followed by Jennae Mae(den), and then Young Evan.
Sir Thomas sits now alone, the chill of winter sand beneath his firm buttock.
He fiddles with fabric, a bag of water.
Adjusts his devices and backs to the edge of the cavernous precipice.

Bravely bold Sir Thomas prepares to rappel. He is not afraid to die, oh brave Sir Thomas. He is not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways, brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Thomas. He is not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp, or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken. To have his kneecaps split, and his body burned away, and his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Sir Thomas. His head smashed in and heart cut out, and his liver removed, and his bowels unplugged, and his nostrils raped and his bottom burned off and his privates...
(That's, uh, that's enough for now, lads... looks like there's dirty work afoot.)

Thus He and Himself descends the thin cord.

He: Don't worry, Your Highness, I got ya! You're safe now--
Himself: Maybe I'm just new to this whole rescuing thing, but this, to me, might be considered kind of a step backwards, wouldn't you say?
He: No, no, no. It's-it's okay! This-this is all right. We can figure this out.
Himself: I hate you.
He: I don't know about you, but I'm getting all funned out.
Himself: [eyes widen] Uh-oh.
He: [resigned] Don't tell me. We're about to go over a huge waterfall.
Himself:[also resigned] Yep.
He: Sharp rocks at the bottom?
Himself: Most likely.
He: [pause] Bring it on. [yells as they go over] BOOOOOO-YAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!”
[Something gives way completely, they plummet to the ground. They drop and hit a rock ledge.]

The 4, arrive at his side; in unison: We are in the nick of time. You were in great peril.
Sir Thomas: I don't think I was.
The 4: Yes, you were. You were in terrible peril.
Sir Thomas: Look, let me go back up there and face the peril.
The 4: No, it's too perilous.
Sir Thomas: Look, it's my duty as The Emperor to sample as much peril as I can.
The 4: No, we've got to find the end of the canyon. Come on.
Sir Thomas: Oh, let me have just a little bit of peril?
The 4: No. It's unhealthy.
Sir Thomas: I bet you're all gay.
The 4, loudly: ‘Are not.

The Emperor, Sir Thomas, rappelled down the wall.
The Emperor, Sir Thomas, he took a small fall.
All The 4 comrades
With the upmost concern
Diligently worked to put Sir Thomas
Together again.

A year passes (or so it seems): winter changes into spring, spring changes into summer, summer changes back into winter, and winter gave spring and summer a miss and went straight on into autumn... until one day... Brave Sir Thomas arrives back at the trucks. (Really it was a bit over an hour journey made pleasant by the sound of clacking coconuts.)

Brave SIr Thomas, bound tightly in the side cart of
a flying steel steed, rides home. A nighttime journey to steaming waters and chilly sheets. He cradles his arm and pampers his back. Morning breaks and to the hospital they charge.
Five nurses attend to a clean Sir Thomas and a fine doctor
brings forth dark films:

“Look Sir Thomas; you've got a fracture at the distal end of your radius. You have a broken arm.”
“No, I don’t.”
“*Look*!”
“It's just a flesh wound. I must attend FreezeFest X. Good-bye,”

So The 2 deliver Sir Thomas back to his palace.

“when the emperor is very
amorous he reclines upon
the couch of couches and
beckons with
the little
finger of his left
hand
then the
thrice-three-hundredth
door is opened by the tallest
eunuch and the queen
of queens comes
forth
ankles
musical with large pearls
kingdoms in her ears
at the feet of
the emperor a cithern-
player squats with
quiveringgold
body
behind
the emperor ten
elected warriors with
bodies of lazy jade
and twitching
eyelids
finger
their
unquiet
spears”

[The Ram and Jennae le Mae(den) are ordering meals for Sir Thomas. When one exits, the other enters, so they never see each other; Kronk, the waiter, in Mount Carmel meanwhile thinks they are making the same order.]

“Jennae: While you're at it, make him the special. And hold the gravy!
Kronk: Check. Pickup.
Ram: You know what? On second thought, make his omelet a meat pie.
Kronk: Meat pie. Check.
Jennae: Kronk? Can I order the potatoes as a side dish?
Kronk: I'll have to charge you full price.
Jennae: [growls in annoyance]
Ram: Hey, how about a side of potatoes, buddy?
Kronk: You got it. Want cheese on those potatoes?
Jennae: Thank you, Kronk. Cheddar will be fine.
Kronk: Cheddar spuds coming up.
Ram: Spuds yes, cheese no.
Kronk: Hold the cheese.
Jennae: No, he wants the cheese!
Kronk: Cheese it is.
Ram: Cheese, he no likey!
Kronk: Cheese out.
Jennae: Cheese in!
Kronk: Ah, come on, make up your mind!
Ram: Okay, okay, on second thought...
Jennae and Ram: Make my potatoes a salad.”

Back at the Emperor’s palace in the land of Mount Carmel:

“the harem of
the emperor
is carpeted with
gold cloth
from the
ceiling(one
diamond timid
with nesting incense)
fifty
marble
pillars
slipped from immeasurable
height,fall,fifty,silent

in the incense is tangled a cool moon
there are thrice-three-hundred
doors carven of chalcedony and
before every door a naked
eunuch watches
on their heads turbans of a hundred
colours
in their hands scimitars like windy torches
each
is
blacker than oblivion

the ladies
of the emperor’s
harem are queens
of all the earth and the rings
upon their hands are from mines
a mile deep
but the body of
the queen of queens is
more transparent
than water,she is softer than birds”

Left alone, at last
His arm now in a cast.
At the keyboard he doth sit
With a right hand like a mitt.

Sir Thomas tries to share
for those that truly care.
It is hard for him to do
So leaves these words for you:

Notes To Self (and I):
THE NEW WATER TRAP ANCHOR

Self: What else floats?
I: Wood?
Self: Good. So how do you tell whether it is made of wood?
I: Build a bridge out of it.
Self: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
I: Oh yeah.
Self: Does wood sink in water?
I: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw it into the pond!
Self: No, no. What else floats in water?
I: Bread.
Self: Apples.
I: Very small rocks.
Self: Cider.
I: Gravy.
Self: Cherries.
I: Mud.
Self: Churches.
I: Lead! Lead!
Self: A Duck.
I: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Self: If it weighs the same as a duck... it ‘s made of wood.
I: And therefore...

With affection and respect to my partners, The 3 and The Emperor, I pronounce
The End

[restrac2000]

This is the oddest and most burdensome incident story I have ever seen (the collective, not specific individuals stories). :sleeping:

Part of me wants to enjoy the creativity of it but that part of me was lost in the convoluted nature of the process. Not sure he has found his way home yet.

Phillip

[ratagonia]

This is the oddest and most burdensome incident story I have ever seen (the collective, not specific individuals stories). :sleeping:

Part of me wants to enjoy the creativity of it but that part of me was lost in the convoluted nature of the process. Not sure he has found his way home yet.

Phillip

So happy to contribute to your Journey, Happy-footed one.

:moses:

[restrac2000]

Despite my snarky comment....Sorry to hear the injury is still causing so much pain. Have you been able to work on Imlay business or has that been limited?

[oldno7]

Jenny's version of events:

THE FALL of THE EMPEROR
by Jennae le Mae(den), aka. Jenny West

Exerpts taken (some borrowed, some morphed) from:
E.E.Cummings poem, The Emperor
The Emperor’s New Groove, A Disney movie and
Monty Python and The Holy Grail

The Emperor, Sir Thomas of Mount Carmel,
ventures forth to the desert, to celebrate
a Breath Day. Clad in black garments the
comrades and comradettes descend many a dark
and wet crack. Tittering they dangle from ropes,
small bits of metal and cord. A grand frolic it is!

At nightfall they rally ‘round fires, feast and share great merriment.

“the emperor
sleeps in a palace of porphyry
which was a million years building
he takes the air in a howdah
of jasper beneath saffron
umbrellas
upon an elephant
twelve foot high
behind whose ear
sits always a crowned
king twir-
ling an
ankus of
ebony
the fountains of the emperor’s
palace run sunlight and
moonlight and the emperor’s
elephant is a thousand years old”

In time the masses depart for hinder lands.
Just three remain at the camp of Sandthrax;
Sir Thomas, Big John and Evan the Young.
Soon, from the east, crossing high mountain passes, comes The Ram.
Lastly, driven north by the storms of the south (?Yes, ‘tis true!)
Jennae le Mae(den) arrives.

Sir Thomas: Old man.
Jennae le Mae(den): Woman.
Sir Thomas: Woman, sorry. You are to join us in a canyon upon the morrow?
Jennae le Mae(den): I'm 37.
Sir Thomas: What?
Jennae le Mae(den): I'm 37. I'm not old.
Sir Thomas: Well I can't just call you "woman".
Jennae le Mae(den): Well you could say "Jennae le Mae(den)".
Sir Thomas: I didn't know you were called Jennae le Mae(den).
Jennae le Mae(den): Well you didn't bother to find out did you?
Sir Thomas: I did say sorry about the "old man", but from behind you looked...
Jennae le Mae(den) What I object to is you automatically treat me like an inferior.
Sir Thomas: Well I am The Emperor.
Jennae le Mae(den): Oh, Emperor, eh? Very nice. And how'd you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers. By hanging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.
Sir Thomas: I am your Emperor.
Jennae le Mae(den): Well I didn't vote for you.
Sir Thomas: You don't vote for Emperors.
Jennae le Mae(den): Well how'd you become Emperor then?
[Angelic music plays... ]
Sir Thomas: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft this SandTrap from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Thomas, was to carry it. THAT is why I am your Emperor
Jennae le Mae(den): [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' a piece of cloth is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony. You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a cloth rappel anchor at you.
(awkward pause)
Jennae le Mae(den): Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
Sir Thomas: Bloody peasant!
Jennae le Mae(den): Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that, The Ram? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me, Big John? You saw him, Didn't you, Young Evan?
(awkward pause as The 4 consider:)
The Ram: You must spank her well, and after you are done with her, you may deal with her as you like... and then... spank me.
Big John: And me.
Evan the Young: And me too. And me.
The Ram: Yes. Yes, you must give us all a good spanking.
Jennae le Mae(den): And after the spanking we can try rappelling off of water?

Meanwhile, not more than two swallow's flights away, a beautiful little canyon waits, undiscovered. Oh, that's an unladen swallow's flight away, obviously.
They were more than two laden swallow's flights away, four really, if they had the rappel rope on a line between them. I mean, if the birds were walking, and dragging the rappel rope...
Sir Thomas: Get on with it!

And now on to the next scene. A smashing scene with some lovely views, in which The 5 gather round the fire and bold tales are told. Firewater Whiskey is passed ‘round in vessels of Nalgene and in which there aren't any swallows, though I think you can hear a starling...and the scratchings of many mice.

Verily, wearily and finally, in morning’s soft winter light, The 5 ride away.
They know not where or what but agree upon Why.
Dancing ‘cross fins of stone
tracing channels of sand
The 5 arrive at the top of a cavernous slot.

Donning armor and tossing the accoutrements
of adventure about
the excitement is high.

The Emperor sits upon the sandstone throne:

Thus it is decided:

Sir Thomas: Tell me. How does it... um... how does it work?
Jennae le Mae(den): I know not, my liege.
Evan the Young: Consult the Ghost Book of Armaments.
Big John: [reading] Armaments, chapter two, verses nine through twenty-one.
And Saint Attila raised the SandTrap up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy cloth anchor, that with it thou mayst leave thy canyons pure, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu...
The Ram: Skip a bit, Brother...
Big John: And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Sling. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Ghosting Anchor of Antioch towards thy target who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
Jennae le Mae(den): Amen.
The 4: Amen.
Sir Thomas: Right. One... two... five.
Evan the Young: Three, sir.
Sir Thomas: Three.

By and by, one by one, they drop into the unknown depths;
The Ram first, then Big John, followed by Jennae Mae(den), and then Young Evan.
Sir Thomas sits now alone, the chill of winter sand beneath his firm buttock.
He fiddles with fabric, a bag of water.
Adjusts his devices and backs to the edge of the cavernous precipice.

Bravely bold Sir Thomas prepares to rappel. He is not afraid to die, oh brave Sir Thomas. He is not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways, brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Thomas. He is not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp, or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken. To have his kneecaps split, and his body burned away, and his limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Sir Thomas. His head smashed in and heart cut out, and his liver removed, and his bowels unplugged, and his nostrils raped and his bottom burned off and his privates...
(That's, uh, that's enough for now, lads... looks like there's dirty work afoot.)

Thus He and Himself descends the thin cord.

He: Don't worry, Your Highness, I got ya! You're safe now--
Himself: Maybe I'm just new to this whole rescuing thing, but this, to me, might be considered kind of a step backwards, wouldn't you say?
He: No, no, no. It's-it's okay! This-this is all right. We can figure this out.
Himself: I hate you.
He: I don't know about you, but I'm getting all funned out.
Himself: [eyes widen] Uh-oh.
He: [resigned] Don't tell me. We're about to go over a huge waterfall.
Himself:[also resigned] Yep.
He: Sharp rocks at the bottom?
Himself: Most likely.
He: [pause] Bring it on. [yells as they go over] BOOOOOO-YAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!”
[Something gives way completely, they plummet to the ground. They drop and hit a rock ledge.]

The 4, arrive at his side; in unison: We are in the nick of time. You were in great peril.
Sir Thomas: I don't think I was.
The 4: Yes, you were. You were in terrible peril.
Sir Thomas: Look, let me go back up there and face the peril.
The 4: No, it's too perilous.
Sir Thomas: Look, it's my duty as The Emperor to sample as much peril as I can.
The 4: No, we've got to find the end of the canyon. Come on.
Sir Thomas: Oh, let me have just a little bit of peril?
The 4: No. It's unhealthy.
Sir Thomas: I bet you're all gay.
The 4, loudly: ‘Are not.

The Emperor, Sir Thomas, rappelled down the wall.
The Emperor, Sir Thomas, he took a small fall.
All The 4 comrades
With the upmost concern
Diligently worked to put Sir Thomas
Together again.

A year passes (or so it seems): winter changes into spring, spring changes into summer, summer changes back into winter, and winter gave spring and summer a miss and went straight on into autumn... until one day... Brave Sir Thomas arrives back at the trucks. (Really it was a bit over an hour journey made pleasant by the sound of clacking coconuts.)

Brave SIr Thomas, bound tightly in the side cart of
a flying steel steed, rides home. A nighttime journey to steaming waters and chilly sheets. He cradles his arm and pampers his back. Morning breaks and to the hospital they charge.
Five nurses attend to a clean Sir Thomas and a fine doctor
brings forth dark films:

“Look Sir Thomas; you've got a fracture at the distal end of your radius. You have a broken arm.”
“No, I don’t.”
“*Look*!”
“It's just a flesh wound. I must attend FreezeFest X. Good-bye,”

So The 2 deliver Sir Thomas back to his palace.

“when the emperor is very
amorous he reclines upon
the couch of couches and
beckons with
the little
finger of his left
hand
then the
thrice-three-hundredth
door is opened by the tallest
eunuch and the queen
of queens comes
forth
ankles
musical with large pearls
kingdoms in her ears
at the feet of
the emperor a cithern-
player squats with
quiveringgold
body
behind
the emperor ten
elected warriors with
bodies of lazy jade
and twitching
eyelids
finger
their
unquiet
spears”

[The Ram and Jennae le Mae(den) are ordering meals for Sir Thomas. When one exits, the other enters, so they never see each other; Kronk, the waiter, in Mount Carmel meanwhile thinks they are making the same order.]

“Jennae: While you're at it, make him the special. And hold the gravy!
Kronk: Check. Pickup.
Ram: You know what? On second thought, make his omelet a meat pie.
Kronk: Meat pie. Check.
Jennae: Kronk? Can I order the potatoes as a side dish?
Kronk: I'll have to charge you full price.
Jennae: [growls in annoyance]
Ram: Hey, how about a side of potatoes, buddy?
Kronk: You got it. Want cheese on those potatoes?
Jennae: Thank you, Kronk. Cheddar will be fine.
Kronk: Cheddar spuds coming up.
Ram: Spuds yes, cheese no.
Kronk: Hold the cheese.
Jennae: No, he wants the cheese!
Kronk: Cheese it is.
Ram: Cheese, he no likey!
Kronk: Cheese out.
Jennae: Cheese in!
Kronk: Ah, come on, make up your mind!
Ram: Okay, okay, on second thought...
Jennae and Ram: Make my potatoes a salad.”

Back at the Emperor’s palace in the land of Mount Carmel:

“the harem of
the emperor
is carpeted with
gold cloth
from the
ceiling(one
diamond timid
with nesting incense)
fifty
marble
pillars
slipped from immeasurable
height,fall,fifty,silent

in the incense is tangled a cool moon
there are thrice-three-hundred
doors carven of chalcedony and
before every door a naked
eunuch watches
on their heads turbans of a hundred
colours
in their hands scimitars like windy torches
each
is
blacker than oblivion

the ladies
of the emperor’s
harem are queens
of all the earth and the rings
upon their hands are from mines
a mile deep
but the body of
the queen of queens is
more transparent
than water,she is softer than birds”

Left alone, at last
His arm now in a cast.
At the keyboard he doth sit
With a right hand like a mitt.

Sir Thomas tries to share
for those that truly care.
It is hard for him to do
So leaves these words for you:

Notes To Self (and I):
THE NEW WATER TRAP ANCHOR

Self: What else floats?
I: Wood?
Self: Good. So how do you tell whether it is made of wood?
I: Build a bridge out of it.
Self: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
I: Oh yeah.
Self: Does wood sink in water?
I: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw it into the pond!
Self: No, no. What else floats in water?
I: Bread.
Self: Apples.
I: Very small rocks.
Self: Cider.
I: Gravy.
Self: Cherries.
I: Mud.
Self: Churches.
I: Lead! Lead!
Self: A Duck.
I: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Self: If it weighs the same as a duck... it ‘s made of wood.
I: And therefore...

With affection and respect to my partners, The 3 and The Emperor, I pronounce
The End

DRIVELOUS:roll:

[CarpeyBiggs]

DRIVELOUS:roll:

did you seriously have to requote the whole thing over again? :roflol:

[ratagonia]

Despite my snarky comment....Sorry to hear the injury is still causing so much pain. Have you been able to work on Imlay business or has that been limited?

Thank you for asking. I can focus and work about 2 hours per day. Might be better tomorrow. Thankfully, Bill W has been coming in to get the orders out, and Scott W has cut a huge quantity of ropes in the last two weeks.

:moses:

[ratagonia]

did you seriously have to requote the whole thing over again? :roflol:

I think he liked it so much, he HAD to quote the whole thing. I'm thinkin' "DRIVELOUS" was meant as a complement. :moses:

[ratagonia]

Some Pictures...

[ratagonia]

s'more pictures

[JennyMae]

Care to comment on the lack of sequencing:twisted: I think your group failed miserably here. He who builds it, goes last doesn't seem like a rational method.
Seriously, this is a valid question that came from some keen thinking, in my opinion. So, I'll come out of lurk status to offer my perspective.
With very few exceptions I rappel last on the SandTrap and all weight sensitive anchors. I offer/request to go last on rappel under two conditions; 1) when a lighter weight may be the safest option for anchor stability and I weigh the least in the group, 2) when I have set the anchor and ALWAYS if the anchor is a prototype of my design. If I opt to go last on an anchor, I fully focus on the

[JennyMae]

DRIVELOUS:roll:

Oh, and another thing Oldno7, I LOVE the word "DRIVELOUS".

[restrac2000]

First, thanks for sharing that post Jenny.

I have always pushed the lightest person goes last practice as well. When its within a close range I prefer the "you built it, you go last" philosophy. But I am curious. When it boils down to it, does 30-50 pounds really make that big of a difference with an anchor? And if so, shouldn't that throw up major red flags regarding quality and safety? I mean if I was really to think about it in the field, I would much rather build a different anchor if it came down to that difference. But maybe thats why I stopped pushing my limits in canyoneering so long ago. That sort of edgework is not what I find meaningful in canyoneering.

Phillip

[oldno7]

Seriously, this is a valid question that came from some keen thinking, in my opinion. So, I'll come out of lurk status to offer my perspective.
With very few exceptions I rappel last on the SandTrap and all weight sensitive anchors. I offer/request to go last on rappel under two conditions; 1) when a lighter weight may be the safest option for anchor stability and I weigh the least in the group, 2) when I have set the anchor and ALWAYS if the anchor is a prototype of my design. If I opt to go last on an anchor, I fully focus on the “test” rappels and engage myself in the certainty that it will be safe. I make whatever adjustments to ensure that the anchor will hold me, that the sand will properly spill out, and that the retrieval lines are set for successful pull. I do not defer to anyone on these points; my life, my choice, my consequences to suffer and/or celebrate. I have great confidence in my ability to make the SandTrap safe and retrievable. I may have been “last (wo)man” more often than anyone else out there and have never had a SandTrap stick. Maybe the wiser choice? I should have taken the time to fully discuss the set up of Tom’s water anchor to become comfortable with the safety of it. Had I agreed to “go last”, I would not have done so without full engagement in the set up, testing, and had a great degree of control over all stages of deployment. Trusting that all of this was occurring for the safety of someone else rappelling last and not supporting that with my personal experience/perspective was irresponsible on my part. I deferred to Tom and held him accountable for his protocol of “he who set it goes last”. I chose to dismiss his asking me if I wanted to go last. Did he have concern there?A discussion should have occurred at that point. Tom and I shared a recent near miss of another prototype anchor tool where I was left to go last and did not fully complete the debrief of this incident. Awkward? Afraid of disagreement? I think that avoidance of conflict (OR WHATEVER) is not a viable excuse for ignoring concerns in these types of situations! I regret my cowardice in this instance. I should have pressed the subject, risking disagreement and arrived at safe decision for a “go last” protocol.
We were lucky in this instance and hopefully have shed some light (within all the drama and silliness) on some of the lessons available from the mistakes made.

Thank You Jenny for a "much better" accounting.
I quoted your entirety again, I hope Dan doesn't get mad.:mrgreen:
Much of what you wrote is what I surmised earlier in this thread.
Really am glad all is o.k. and you guys are bringing us in on the event.
I'm learning

[Randi]

:2thumbs:
I've noticed canyoneers have a habit of being complacent on shorter rappels. Anchors they would never consider using on a 200' rappel are somehow acceptable on a 30' rappel.

That's probably a bad habit we should all work to correct.

I'm not saying that is what happened here.... just a general observation about rappel anchors in general.

:cool2:

[CarpeyBiggs]

When it boils down to it, does 30-50 pounds really make that big of a difference with an anchor?
in my opinion, certainly could... i bet the margin of error on some of these setups is maybe 100-200 pounds. could someone dynamically loading an anchor who weighs 50 pounds more create enough force to make the anchor fail? certainly seems within the realm of possible.


And if so, shouldn't that throw up major red flags regarding quality and safety?
perhaps. but, these systems aren't tested by anything other than "let's test it and see if it moves." if it doesn't move, how do you figure out how much force it will take for it to fail? hard to really figure out the margin of error. this accident has me seriously wondering what the margin is. i have my suspicions it might be even more slim than i previously thought.



I mean if I was really to think about it in the field, I would much rather build a different anchor if it came down to that difference.
interestingly, there are some canyons where i honestly don't know what you'd do without sandtrap anchors. fortunately, most of them are on powell and casual canyoneers wouldn't just walk into them. but in these big sand filled pothole canyons, the sandtrap makes a lot of sense, and it is what i'd consider bombproof. it solves a lot of tough anchor situations. but... there's always a but....


But maybe thats why I stopped pushing my limits in canyoneering so long ago. That sort of edgework is not what I find meaningful in canyoneering.

you and me both... :nod:

[ilipichicuma]

First, thanks for sharing that post Jenny.

I have always pushed the lightest person goes last practice as well. When its within a close range I prefer the "you built it, you go last" philosophy. But I am curious. When it boils down to it, does 30-50 pounds really make that big of a difference with an anchor? And if so, shouldn't that throw up major red flags regarding quality and safety? I mean if I was really to think about it in the field, I would much rather build a different anchor if it came down to that difference. But maybe thats why I stopped pushing my limits in canyoneering so long ago. That sort of edgework is not what I find meaningful in canyoneering.

Phillip

This is a good question, but I know from experience that an anchor can work for everyone but me. Being the fattest in my group of friends, I often end up going down first (with backups), as I have at least 30 pounds on the next to heaviest person. We don't have a sandtrap, but we've found that two loaded potshots with enough friction can anchor anyone in our group pretty safely...except for me. So, yes, 30-50 pounds can make a pretty big difference, at least in my (by no means vast) experience.

[oldno7]

I would guess the weight differential in Tom's group, is closer to 70-80lbs. Which in of itself, may or may not be significant.
BUT-even a super smooth, great rappeller can increase this # greatly, stopping would multiply this #.

I think the adjective for anchors is fairly important here. (Bomber/Marginal)
If it requires backing, it IS NOT BOMBER!
The distinction is important because it plays a key role in how an anchor is utilized.
A bomber anchor(imo) has the ability to also aid in rescue. ie. raise/lower/tandem, etc.
This plays out in this groups scenario, in this canyon. If Tom was rendered unconscious or immobile, required immediate evacuation,
what would be the plan? Is someone willing to rig up a tandem rappel off a sand/watertrap?

So, I sit and now, Saturday morning quarterback. I think what this group is doing is exemplary. The methods being discovered are cutting edge, there are inherent
risks with these methods, which NO ONE FULLY UNDERSTANDS OR CAN CALCULATE. Getting comfortable on your 201st sandtrap rappel, does not mean the 202nd won't fail.
This is definitely no arena for complacency.

[restrac2000]

I tend to agree with your idea about bomber anchors, oldno7. I also think I have moved further into the category of casual canyoneers by choice. Don't think that will surprise anyone that ever cannoned with me; never enjoyed that ballet at the edge.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

This is a good question, but I know from experience that an anchor can work for everyone but me. Being the fattest in my group of friends,

That's for weighting in on this topic. :2thumbs:

:roflol: :roflol:



Sorry.... I couldn't help myself... all said in fun and games. :2thumbs:

[CLE]

This is more of a general question related to the water trap, which may or may not have anything to do with this specific incident. I have not seen or used a water trap. Based on descriptions here, I picture it as basically a bag with water in it, probably having a simple means for releasing the water remotely. Oldno7 commented back in the thread about frictional differences between using sand versus water. What about the wave action that could be initiated in the water bag? Does jerking on the anchor (e.g. quickly stopping a rappel) cause the water to slosh back and forth? If that wave combined in phase with another bouncing of the rope, could that not marginalize the water trap anchor due to the water flowing back in the direction of the rappel? Depending on how much back-and-forth water movement occured and the form of the hole the water trap is in, it seems that this anchor could vary in its strength during a rappel. Is that correct?

[ratagonia]

This is more of a general question related to the water trap, which may or may not have anything to do with this specific incident. I have not seen or used a water trap. Based on descriptions here, I picture it as basically a bag with water in it, probably having a simple means for releasing the water remotely. Oldno7 commented back in the thread about frictional differences between using sand versus water. What about the wave action that could be initiated in the water bag? Does jerking on the anchor (e.g. quickly stopping a rappel) cause the water to slosh back and forth? If that wave combined in phase with another bouncing of the rope, could that not marginalize the water trap anchor due to the water flowing back in the direction of the rappel? Depending on how much back-and-forth water movement occured and the form of the hole the water trap is in, it seems that this anchor could vary in its strength during a rappel. Is that correct?

In theory, perhaps. But it is a small bag, so the frequency is pretty high, much much higher than the cycle you would induce rappelling.

But really, all theorizing aside, the choice of where to put it was really, really bad. :facepalm1: Wish we had a picture of what I saw as I went over the edge, so we could all just say "what a knucklehead!".

:moses:

[JennyMae]

:facepalm1: Wish we had a picture of what I saw as I went over the edge, so we could all just say "what a knucklehead!".

:moses:

OK, I'll say it, "What a knucklehead!" But a brilliant one and one soon to have a skinny white arm freed to move forward to create great canyoneering tools for the common folk. :hail2thechief: