Brainstorm: Canyoneering Adventure Challenge

[jman]

MOD: Moved from the "Trad v. Sport" thread. -Jman



What about speed canyoneering (or "hypercanyoneering" as Jared Campbell calls it)? Maybe it's for ADHD canyoneers. I know there's a few of you out there like me that love seeing just how fast and eficiently you can do a slot canyon. Slot canyons to me are like parkour taken to a whole new level. I try to take as little gear as possible and do the canyon as fast as possible often linking together three to five canyons in a day. I must admit, however, that I'm not stopping to smell the roses much this way, so every once in a while I take it easy and just enjoy the scenerey.

5/day? Is that a regular thing? You doing laps, or canyons you've done numerous times?

The most I did in one day was U-Turn, Dragonfly (including the long exit out), rappelling off Corona Arch 3x, Cameltoe, and then watching X-Men Origins: Wolverine later that evenin in Moab. That was a long day!

Derailing thread: Hmm...now you got me interested how many I can do in Zion in 1 day (and not including laps of the same canyon). Hmmm... Keyhole (40mins), Pinecreek (2 1/2 hrs), Echo (depends), and Spry (3-4hrs) and end with Mystery (4 1/2hrs). That would be very tough and exhausting! But I like the challenge. Oh, and this would be me and a partner.

[DRobb]

5/day? Is that a regular thing? You doing laps, or canyons you've done numerous times?

The most I did in one day was U-Turn, Dragonfly (including the long exit out), rappelling off Corona Arch 3x, Cameltoe, and then watching X-Men Origins: Wolverine later that evenin in Moab. That was a long day!

Derailing thread: Hmm...now you got me interested how many I can do in Zion in 1 day (and not including laps of the same canyon). Hmmm... Keyhole (40mins), Pinecreek (2 1/2 hrs), Echo (depends), and Spry (3-4hrs) and end with Mystery (4 1/2hrs). That would be very tough and exhausting! But I like the challenge. Oh, and this would be me and a partner.

Nice! But did you stay awake all the way through X-men? I glad to hear there's people out there interested in doing canyons this way. I never do the same canyon more than once in a day. Maybe that's the ADHD side of me kicking in, but I like variety. My favorite link up is Ding, Dang, Crack, Chute, Little Wild Horse, and Bell in a day. I like this link up because all the canyons are very runable, you don't need any gear, and they're close together so you're not wasteing time driving. It adds up to around 28 miles by the time your done (maybe we should call this "endurance canyoneering" instead of speed canyoneering since I'm not moving too fast by the end). I've linked up technical canyons too. You can stack up a pile of canyons in a day at the Northwash and Roost areas where there's a high concentration of canyons close together. Like you said, Zion would be a sweet place for link-ups if you didn't have to pay a fee for every canyon. If your fast, that can add up! I like your Key Hole, Pine, Echo, Spry, Mystery idea. That sounds like a fun (but expensive!) day. I might have to add that to my hit list. The most famous Zion link-up is, of course, Kolob, Imlay, and Heaps, but I'm not man enough for that one...yet.

[jman]

Nice! But did you stay awake all the way through X-men? I glad to hear there's people out there interested in doing canyons this way. I never do the same canyon more than once in a day. Maybe that's the ADHD side of me kicking in, but I like variety. My favorite link up is Ding, Dang, Crack, Chute, Little Wild Horse, and Bell in a day. I like this link up because all the canyons are very runable, you don't need any gear, and they're close together so you're not wasteing time driving. It adds up to around 28 miles by the time your done (maybe we should call this "endurance canyoneering" instead of speed canyoneering since I'm not moving too fast by the end). I've linked up technical canyons too. You can stack up a pile of canyons in a day at the Northwash and Roost areas where there's a high concentration of canyons close together. Like you said, Zion would be a sweet place for link-ups if you didn't have to pay a fee for every canyon. If your fast, that can add up! I like your Key Hole, Pine, Echo, Spry, Mystery idea. That sounds like a fun (but expensive!) day. I might have to add that to my hit list. The most famous Zion link-up is, of course, Kolob, Imlay, and Heaps, but I'm not man enough for that one...yet.

As a mod, I should move this into a new thread "endurance or speed canyoneering", but I'm too lazy right now. Lol. What we could do have a competition in Zion. We come to a concensus on canyons, reserve them, etc and one group does them the 1st day, 2nd group 2nd day, or start them in reverse or something, and whoever finishes first wins a awesome prize and praise by all. Think of it like FreezeFest but different. I like it!

Ps - it doesn't have to be in Zion per se, since the red tape would get in the way, unless the superintendent would allow for an exception for the competitors. Escalate, Roost, Moab, whatever.

[trackrunner]

NLike you said, Zion would be a sweet place for link-ups if you didn't have to pay a fee for every canyon.

I've heard you only need one permit if the route is not normally done by vehicle transportation. telephone/behunin, echo/mystery, etc. but don't quote me I'm sure :moses:will correct me.

[ratagonia]

I've heard you only need one permit if the route is not normally done by vehicle transportation. telephone/behunin, echo/mystery, etc. but don't quote me I'm sure :moses:will correct me.

Correct, mostly. If you do not travel by car (and maybe the Shuttle bus), then you can put multiple canyons on one permit.

Competitions in National Parks are generally prohibited. A little competition between friends is probably not an issue; announcing the competition to the public definitely is.

Remember that affiliated parties cannot draw a permit for the same canyon on the same day. AND the party must travel together. So, you might establish an itinerary, then separate parties could do it on different days.

We had a pretty good time on Heaps and Imlay (full, full) at 23 hours 9 minutes. Has been topped, but they cheated, being superhuman. And besides, I was, apparently, 95 years old at the time, so some handicap might be expected.

Tom

[jman]

Correct, mostly. If you do not travel by car (and maybe the Shuttle bus), then you can put multiple canyons on one permit.

Competitions in National Parks are generally prohibited. A little competition between friends is probably not an issue; announcing the competition to the public definitely is.

Remember that affiliated parties cannot draw a permit for the same canyon on the same day. AND the party must travel together. So, you might establish an itinerary, then separate parties could do it on different days.

We had a pretty good time on Heaps and Imlay (full, full) at 23 hours 9 minutes. Has been topped, but they cheated, being superhuman. And besides, I was, apparently, 95 years old at the time, so some handicap might be expected.

Tom

Oh TomTom the GPS who always points me in the right direction, thanks for the clarification.

I will ask the super anyways, as it doesn't hurt to ask. Perhaps he would like the publicity, the stunt, whatever, and allow an exception? Optimisic? Of course. Probable - not likely. Zion would be fun, just because of the anemities in Springdale for R&R afterwards.

[forum8fox]

If you wanna be the dean potter of canyoneering you gotta run big tony, long branch, ddi, and p.i.n.t.a.c in a push. Or how about a down and up thrax as many times as possible competition? I do enjoy link ups, but I can't handle a 28 mile day with "running" thrown in on top of that. Plus I like taking pictures too much to be that rushed. Perhaps if I get better I will be able to shoot on the fly, or get a go pro and hope I can pull some decent images between the two. Linking canyons can be fun, just like linking long rock climbs. Endurance days are for masochists... I'm not much of a huge distance person or a runner at all but I've put my share of 15+ mile days in. The diamond is hands down one of my biggest days to date, started the day by going to work, getting off and driving to boulder after a 9 hour day of heavy glass installation (glazing), had a couple beers at the southern sun while waiting for my partner, (he)drove to the TH,we started hiking around 1 am,got to the base of the route and started soloing up the north chimney at sun rise with wet approach shoes, summited the casual route and longs peak around 1pm, back to the car by 7pm. I think that was like 14 miles and somewhere around 1300 vertical feet of climbing (mostly) above 13k. barely managed to get myself home in one piece, after all that in a non stop 36 hour day.:stud:Youthful exuberance... or perhaps I'm just :crazycobasa:

[stefan]

Oh TomTom

JmanJman (are you seeing double?)



I will ask the super anyways, as it doesn't hurt to ask. Perhaps he would like the publicity, the stunt, whatever, and allow an exception?


what planet are you on?

[jman]

JmanJman (are you seeing double?)
eh...doesn't flow as nicely as TomTom does. ;)


what planet are you on?

Haha. Perhaps the same one the super is from?

[DRobb]

As a mod, I should move this into a new thread "endurance or speed canyoneering", but I'm too lazy right now. Lol. What we could do have a competition in Zion. We come to a concensus on canyons, reserve them, etc and one group does them the 1st day, 2nd group 2nd day, or start them in reverse or something, and whoever finishes first wins a awesome prize and praise by all. Think of it like FreezeFest but different. I like it!

Ps - it doesn't have to be in Zion per se, since the red tape would get in the way, unless the superintendent would allow for an exception for the competitors. Escalate, Roost, Moab, whatever.


I think that would be a blast. We could just go ahead and do it at Freeze Fest. We could start right out of the Sandthrax campground and hit any or all of those closest canyons. Or where ever, I'm not picky. Or we could just start posting times here. If enough people were interested, could we set aside a place to do that? Anyone else interested starting a place to post fastest known times for canyons and canyon link-ups? Does it already exist somewhere?

[jman]

I think that would be a blast. We could just go ahead and do it at Freeze Fest. We could start right out of the Sandthrax campground and hit any or all of those closest canyons. Or where ever, I'm not picky. Or we could just start posting times here. If enough people were interested, could we set aside a place to do that? Anyone else interested starting a place to post fastest known times for canyons and canyon link-ups? Does it already exist somewhere?

All of the Freezfests happen at my busiest times at work. I can't get work off for it ever, it seems like. However, later in the Spring is ideal for me and my partner (he works at Backcountry.com and slow season isn't until March/April; so he can't commit to a few days).

[DRobb]

If you wanna be the dean potter of canyoneering you gotta run big tony, long branch, ddi, and p.i.n.t.a.c in a push. Or how about a down and up thrax as many times as possible competition?

No thanks! I'll just go send myself through a wood chipper and save myself the gas money. I did Sandthrax once...never again.

[xxnitsuaxx]

I'm all for this idea. My friends and I have tossed the idea around before and I think it sounds like a blast.

[jman]

Sweet! Perhaps others would like to chime in as well.

Any ideas on other linkups? or areas? Feel free to list some canyons down.

Here ya go, just thought of an idea...how about something like a "Moab Hell challenge" (for lack of a clever name - LOL).
For example; you start at Pleiades, go to Arches, and do Tierdrop, U-turn or Not-Tierdrop, do Dragonfly, and end with Rock of Ages, or something like that. Best time wins - all afterwards, we celebrate at the Moab brewery (although I don't drink), but they have great burgers! And fastest times gets a awesome prize that the group pitches in for -a 3-day Advanced Course to ZAC (worth like $1200+ for 2 people, that way there's motivation to stay motivated and win) or other cool ideas...or heck, just for fun.

Just tossin' ideas.

[ratagonia]

Sweet! Perhaps others would like to chime in as well.

Any ideas on other linkups? or areas? Feel free to list some canyons down.

Here ya go, just thought of an idea...how about something like a "Moab Hell challenge" (for lack of a clever name - LOL).
For example; you start at Pleiades, go to Arches, and do Tierdrop, U-turn or Not-Tierdrop, do Dragonfly, and end with Rock of Ages, or something like that. Best time wins - all afterwards, we celebrate at the Moab brewery (although I don't drink), but they have great burgers! And fastest times gets a awesome prize that the group pitches in for -a 3-day Advanced Course to ZAC (worth like $1200+ for 2 people, that way there's motivation to stay motivated and win) or other cool ideas...or heck, just for fun.

Just tossin' ideas.

Hmmmmm. Thanks for thinking of us (ZAC) Jman, but... Seems like, having demonstrated a high level of competence in canyoneering skills (hopefully), that a 3-day course oriented toward beginners would be an unlikely choice as a prize. :cool2:

ZAC also offers a One-Day Progressive class, which is basically whatever you want it to be...

But I don't really have any suggestions otherwise.

Tom :moses:

[jman]

Hmmmmm. Thanks for thinking of us (ZAC) Jman, but... Seems like, having demonstrated a high level of competence in canyoneering skills (hopefully), that a 3-day course oriented toward beginners would be an unlikely choice as a prize. :cool2:

ZAC also offers a One-Day Progressive class, which is basically whatever you want it to be...

But I don't really have any suggestions otherwise.

Tom :moses:

of course! Your business has served me and my "needs" @ Zion, very well. And i like to reciprocate the love. I've never taken the advanced 3-day course but I have heard lots of good things about it, and thought it would be a worthy prize. I dunno, just thinking of potential ideas.

Although, the progressive class would be a good prize as well.

[DRobb]

What if we had someone like Tom (assuming he doesn't want to compete) come up with a list and not tell anyone until the last possible moment. That way the playing feild is totally leveled. It might even be a nearly impossible list. Then whoever gets the furthest (within something like a 12 hour window) or finishes the fastest wins.

[jman]

What if we had someone like Tom (assuming he doesn't want to compete) come up with a list and not tell anyone until the last possible moment. That way the playing feild is totally leveled. It might even be a nearly impossible list. Then whoever gets the furthest (within something like a 12 hour window) or finishes the fastest wins.

Hmmm...mystery! So, the group meets up at the evening before the challenge and is given the envelope with the canyons. Then the group has the rest of the evening to strategize, and next morning at a given time it officially begins.

However, with your scenario how would you solve the scenario of two groups entering the canyon the same time?

Would running be allowed? Or would a wildland firefighter fitnees test be implemented - no running, but power walking is fine. Jogging is not acceptable either.

[DRobb]

We can absolutely run! For me, that's half the fun! We would only have to insist that everyone obey speed limits and drive safely between canyons. You're right about potential problems with having more than one group in a canyon at a time. You'd have to just be polite and realistic. If one group is faster, the group in front needs to let them pass. It wouldn't be that different than in single track mountain bike racing or trail races. The more canyons on the list, the less chance of running into that problem. However, I could see another problem arising if no one was able to finish all the canyons and they all did different canyons, how would you judge the winner? I really like your idea of having an evening to create strategy and then starting the next day. This sounds fun! I don't even care about a prize.

[Spidey]

I've got a crew ready!

[trackrunner]

driving between canyons? Kind of takes the adventure race style away from it

[ratagonia]

driving between canyons? Kind of takes the adventure race style away from it

Hmmm, thinking about where and how, to make it fair. No driving would be nice. Permits need to be a non-issue.

Can do. Even the LOCATION would be secret, both before and after.

Tom

[Scott Card]

The old man in me wonders if this thread should be titled "Thinning the Herd". Be safe fellas.

I went with Spidey and Clark on the second leg of the Book End Tour of Zion (that is what I called it). Start with a 300 foot rap and end with a 300 foot rap. Englestead / Heaps or "Engleheap". No driving for Clark and Spidey.... Walked the whole thing. I only did Heaps with them.

[Iceaxe]

Some how I ended up doing South Red Cave, North Red Cave, Pine Creek and the Sneak Route into Imlay all in a day..... It was too much for me and kinda destroyed the fun of Imlay.

I'd rather take my time and smell the flowers....

[jman]

Some how I ended up doing South Red Cave, North Red Cave, Pine Creek and the Sneak Route into Imlay all in a day..... It was too much for me and kinda destroyed the fun of Imlay.

I'd rather take my time and smell the flowers....

I love that too. But I also like variety. In no way am I implying to push safety on the wayside, Scott.

I don't think Driving detracts from the experience. Unless its like a 2hr drive to the next canyon.

All the groups would carry a GPS so their tracks can be recorded, so we all know that every group descended the right canyons, didn't exit 1/2 through and hiked the rim instead, etc.

[forum8fox]

Who cares? Sounds like the pissing match between people trying to break the speed record on the nose. Mc neally holds more speed records than those poor suckers and he's sending much more impressive routes. The only speed records I'm interested in are the ones through cutting edge canyons, not walk through's that your grandma could do.

[Mitch R.]

This is an interesting thread for a guy like me who was all worked up over the now defunct Nolan's 14 ultramarathon mountaineering event 10+ years ago.

Might be even more interesting if you structure it like an adventure race, in which you don't know what you are going to do next until you get the next set of instructions.

[jman]

Who cares? Sounds like the pissing match between people trying to break the speed record on the nose. Mc neally holds more speed records than those poor suckers and he's sending much more impressive routes.

I really, really hope you realize that we do this for fun. It's not a pissing match at all. It's funny how you post about how (in paraphrase) "I'm doing canyons that most of you will never see". Cool! Good for you! And I've probably done canyons that you will never see either. Lol. What's the big deal? Just a fun competition with like-minded folks. If our idea of a speed canyoneering seems to slow or grandma-proof for you - by all means, dont respond here...


The only speed records I'm interested in are the ones through cutting edge canyons, not walk through's that your grandma could do.

Great, we're happy for ya!

[The Good Cop]

Hey, all in good fun & challenge guys! I must say, now that I see the competition might not be any tougher than Jason & Spidey, I feel like I have a real chance! :facepalm1: Just laughing to myself here, but it does sound like the potential for great fun with great people, and a great evening afterward. I hope something materializes & I hope I con join in with the people following in those guys' footprints through some wonderful places.

Cheers,

Wayne

[spinesnaper]

OK, you guys are definitely onto something. Should getting the permit be included in the time? That could be amusing. I think you are going to need the groups to video their descents to make them count. That creates the possibility of awarding style points.:haha:

[forum8fox]

Excuse my cynicism. Must have struck a nerve. I think I'll step out since I'm not interested in the least bit (healing from a broken back and I'm only in competition with myself). Enjoy yourselves, after all that IS what it's all about. Sorry if I seem to be that snobby and egotistical, have comfort in knowing I realize I'm not better then anyone else. I was simply trying to provide a differing POV which was merely opinion and thus worthless from the get go. Surely nothing to get worked up over to the point of personal slander, but I respect your opinion that my input was uncalled for and out of place. And for the record I wasn't saying you are slow, I'm just saying I generally don't care too much about speed and getting a million canyons done at once. I just like to enjoy the little time I have there most of the time. kinda like quality over quantity 75 % of the time unless I've already done everything around the area I'm in (which is pretty much never). Sincerely the :crazy: uncool guy hanging out alone in the corner.

[Mitch R.]

Upon second thought, the old man in me agrees with Scott's "Thinning the herd" sentiments.

This speed canyoneering thing should be left to the canyoneering equivalents of Ueli Steck.

[DRobb]

I for one have no intention of doing anything to compromise the safety of my partner or myself in the name of speed. I just think this sound like a great opportunity for some laughs and good ole fashioned suffering. The competitive side of it is merely for fun. In fact, I hope that any canyoneer with a reasonable amount of experience would feel free to join us. I don't think this should be any kind of elitist "pissing match". That would certainly ruin it for me. Let's keep it grass roots and light-hearted, but still challenging in terms of both distance and technical difficulty.

So when are we going to do this thing anyway? Spring? Maybe it's a question for Tom if he's willing to be the one to choose the canyons. I think we should nail down a date as soon as possible so that people can plan for it and the excitement doesn't fizzle out.

[CarpeyBiggs]

late to the party on this thread... like the ideas though.

what about something like an alaska wilderness classic type race? only canyoneering style. the route just has minimum checkpoints you have to hit, but all the rest is up to the racers, and encourages people to find unique routes and push their limits. something like that could easily be established in the dirty devil area, escalante, north wash, or powell areas. make it a multi-day race. certain canyons are mandatory to be descended, and could have "checkpoints" in them, to ensure racers pass certain locations. or require people to carry a spot and send a signal every 4 hours. no caches, no support, no movement except human power (bikes and packrafts ok).

like the AWC says, it's the only race that everyone loses.

[jman]

late to the party on this thread... like the ideas though.

what about something like an alaska wilderness classic type race? only canyoneering style. the route just has minimum checkpoints you have to hit, but all the rest is up to the racers, and encourages people to find unique routes and push their limits. something like that could easily be established in the dirty devil area, escalante, north wash, or powell areas. make it a multi-day race. certain canyons are mandatory to be descended, and could have "checkpoints" in them, to ensure racers pass certain locations. or require people to carry a spot and send a signal every 4 hours. no caches, no support, no movement except human power (bikes and packrafts ok).

like the AWC says, it's the only race that everyone loses.

x2. Great ideas! Hmmm....

[CarpeyBiggs]

i've followed dave chenault's blog for quite awhile, and they are working on this very thing, only without the canyoneering twist, if you want to see what they are up to.

http://bedrockandparadox.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/wilderness-racing-in-the-lower-48

[DRobb]

late to the party on this thread... like the ideas though.

what about something like an alaska wilderness classic type race? only canyoneering style. the route just has minimum checkpoints you have to hit, but all the rest is up to the racers, and encourages people to find unique routes and push their limits. something like that could easily be established in the dirty devil area, escalante, north wash, or powell areas. make it a multi-day race. certain canyons are mandatory to be descended, and could have "checkpoints" in them, to ensure racers pass certain locations. or require people to carry a spot and send a signal every 4 hours. no caches, no support, no movement except human power (bikes and packrafts ok).

like the AWC says, it's the only race that everyone loses.

Compelling ideas. I really like the multiday suggestion in particular. I have to admit, I was imagining something much simpler. What direction do people want to go with this:

1. A completely informal gathering of friends agreeing to race through a few canyons for a day with something like free dinner for the winners (more fun than competitive).

or

2. A formal, competitive, and involved race complete with entry fees and a more substantial prize.

Does anyone even have the resources and know-how for option two? I'm game for either one, but I'd prefer, at least for our first try at this, option one.

[CarpeyBiggs]

option two is pretty much guaranteed to be complicated as hell... and require permits. if there are no entry fees or prizes, then there is no need for a permit. i'd say something more simple than the monster races they do in alaska, simply because they are BURLY. i'd say a course that is roughly 60 miles, 4-6 slot canyons, with 4-6 checkpoints. can you imagine a race down the escalante river? loop it from the moody bench, neon (from the top), choprock, ringtail, the bakers, and exit back up moody canyon to the car. it'd be badass!

One description of the race: "Just a group of friends who like to party in two places, about 150 - 175 miles and a week apart."

more on the AWC could be found here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Mountain_Wilderness_Classic

only a couple rules, emphasis on purity of style

The rules are simple: start to finish with no outside support, requiring that racers carry all food and equipment; human-powered; leave no trace; and rescue is up to the individual to resolve. The most common form of transportation is by foot and packraft, although bicycles, skis, and even paragliders have been used by intrepid racers. Beginning in 2004, racers have been required to carry satellite phones to facilitate emergency rescues.

[CarpeyBiggs]

jman, maybe we should change the title of the thread? call it something like "Brainstorm: Canyoneering Wilderness Race" or something like that. I didn't engage the thread before because I figured it was something I didn't care about. However, a wilderness course would be much more interesting to me, even though I have no prayer in competing with the likes of spidey, it'd be fun as hell, especially if done in a 3 day weekend time frame.

[jman]

jman, maybe we should change the title of the thread? call it something like "Brainstorm: Canyoneering Wilderness Race" or something like that. I didn't engage the thread before because I figured it was something I didn't care about. However, a wilderness course would be much more interesting to me, even though I have no prayer in competing with the likes of spidey, it'd be fun as hell, especially if done in a 3 day weekend time frame.

What you are getting at is essentially my plan. Well, that was my vision after DRobb inspired me, initially. It's more the likes of the amazing race.

But yea I'm for it, let's change it. You or me doesn't matter.

[DRobb]

i'd say a course that is roughly 60 miles, 4-6 slot canyons, with 4-6 checkpoints. can you imagine a race down the escalante river? loop it from the moody bench, neon (from the top), choprock, ringtail, the bakers, and exit back up moody canyon to the car. it'd be badass!

I like the way you think! Does this mean you don't want the course to be a surprise? I kind of like the idea of showing up ready for a race like the one you describe, but having no idea what canyons it will involve.

[jman]

Should it require that participants have gone through canyons previously? That way it would minimize safety risks.

[Mitch R.]

All of this talk about the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic got this old guy worked up. Dan, thanks for the link to the one in the lower 48. I might put that on my schedule next year.

Of course, if one wants to do a canyoneering version under summer conditions, then you might also think of a winter version a al the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Ski Classic.

Real adventure is not knowing what you are up against when you show up at the start. That is what separates and adventure race from an off-road triathlon.

This thread is getting good!

[Mitch R.]

3 days would be a good legnth, but one would have to sleep along the course. Having gone 72 hours on 2 hours of sleep, I definately would not trust myself rappelling after 36+ hours without sleep.

[CarpeyBiggs]

3 days would be a good legnth, but one would have to sleep along the course. Having gone 72 hours on 2 hours of sleep, I definately would not trust myself rappelling after 36+ hours without sleep.
i think it's a race... you can sleep if you want, but other people likely will not (or will be cutting it as close as possible). most would sleep a couple hours each night, is my guess.

i'm thinking april time frame works best, i'll be gone for most of march and beginning of april myself. :2thumbs:

[restrac2000]

I was a course manager for PrimalQuest Utah, a couple thoughts:

1) Don't even get involved in the commercial permit side. Keep it to the non-commercial use limits and rules and have fun. The process is horrendous.

2) Keep the rules simple and few.

3) Route secrecy levels the playing field.

4) Have a good contingency plan when involving technical routes (for managers). I would recommend having 1-2 volunteers at a BaseCamp for "emergencies". Not likely to happen but helpful even for minor problems.

Will be interesting to see what folks ultimately come up with and how it pans out.

Phillip

[DRobb]

April sounds great. How about the weekend of the 21st?

As far as safety concerns go, I think we have to keep the responsibility on ourselves as the participants. Sleep or not, do the canyons before or not (assuming we even know what the canyons are), that has to be left up to the individual teams.

[jman]

April sounds great. How about the weekend of the 21st?

As far as safety concerns go, I think we have to keep the responsibility on ourselves as the participants. Sleep or not, do the canyons before or not (assuming we even know what the canyons are), that has to be left up to the individual teams.

I think we can broadcast the area, and list a few of the tough canyon (again, to minimize safety issues). Secrecy still needs to be intact, but the hardest ones listed would as least make it fair. At least that's the way I see it. It would suck if it turned into a rescue.

I would prefer May instead of April. Less to do in May workwise, than April, therefore easier to get off.

[DRobb]

I think we can broadcast the area, and list a few of the tough canyon (again, to minimize safety issues). Secrecy still needs to be intact, but the hardest ones listed would as least make it fair. At least that's the way I see it. It would suck if it turned into a rescue.

What if we had a list of gear needed, the hardest canyon's rating (but not its name), and any other pertinent information, but still left the location a mystery. If we disclose the location and a canyon name, it'll be pretty easy to figure out the course. I think it would have to be a total secret or disclose all, nothing in between.

May is fine. What date?

[CarpeyBiggs]

i think you need to make the course so that it is choose your own adventure... if everyone does the same exact route, it's kind of pointless. the cool thing about the AWC is that everyone develops their routes in secret, and there are tons of variations, with the winners usually taking a high risk/high reward route. the fun thing would be to have a general area, but then every team plans their own route, with a couple mandatory checkpoints. secrecy would be pretty tough, in my opinion.

[trackrunner]

idea: could you have bonus for the high risk high reward canyons where it would take a few small easy canyons to equal that value

[DRobb]

I've been thinking, as much as I like CarpeyBiggs idea of a multiday monster race, I think it would alienate a lot of people who would otherwise like to join us. At least for our first try at this, why don't we keep it to one day. CarpeyBiggs is right about it needing to be a "choose your own adventure" type of thing to prevent traffic jams in the canyons. But I don't see why it can't be a secret list of canyons that we only find out about the night before (like jman suggested), spend the evening developing a strategy with our team, and then take off the next day with all teams free to do the canyons in any order they want. I think restrac2000's advice was dead on and we should stick to it. That being said, I'm still excited to do it any or all of the ways suggested so far. They all sound like a good time to me.

So all those interested in joining in on this, cast your votes and let's see what we agree on:

1. One day or multiday?
2. Canyons kept secret until race day or notified before hand?
3. Cars or no cars?
4. What date?

Am I forgetting anything else?

[Mitch R.]

I will follow this thread with great interest, but won't be there next year.

I am going up the Casaval Ridge (Mt. Shasta) in April and will do, with a very big thanks to Carpey Biggs :2thumbs:, the Bob Marshall Wilderness Open over Memorial Day weekend.

I have waited nearly 20 years for a lower-48 version of the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic and can't wait any longer.

[DRobb]

I will follow this thread with great interest, but won't be there next year.

I am going up the Casaval Ridge (Mt. Shasta) in April and will do, with a very big thanks to Carpey Biggs :2thumbs:, the Bob Marshall Wilderness Open over Memorial Day weekend.

I have waited nearly 20 years for a lower-48 version of the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic and can't wait any longer.

Wow! The Bob Marshall looks amazing. Thanks for posting about it here or I don't think I would ever have known it existed. So tempted by it and scared of it at the same time!

[Mitch R.]

I have never been to the area, but just looking at the topo map, it looks like a ski mountaineering gig at that time of the year.

The winner will probably skin up the crest of the Rockies, then paraglide to the finish.

Kind of like the Red Bull X-Alps race

http://www.redbullxalps.com/

These young guys have all the fun!

[xxnitsuaxx]

1.) Whichever.
2.) Keep 'em secret.
3.) No cars.
4.) Whenever

[Scott Card]

I think to keep it fair and safe, each group is required to have a 45+ year old canyoneer along in the group. (That is the only way I have a chance. :haha: )

[Buzz]

This topic is of interest to me. A few thoughts:

* Sorry; being 45 yrs old no longer counts.
* We've been staging climbing/scrambling races in Boulder's Flatirons for 10 years. The rules are simple and important:
1. Be Safe
2. Have Fun
3. Go Fast
In that order!
* Asking the Zion Super if you can have a race would be like asking the Bank President if it would be OK if you took all his money.
* Organizing a multiday race with checkpoints is not going to happen, unless your brother-in-law is a multi-millionaire and wants to fund your ideas.
* Organizing any kind of race is dubious, for the simple reason you can't pass people in canyons. Imagine racing Heaps or Imlay: first team to reach the first rappel has won.
* I still feel the frustration from the first AR I did 15 years ago, when we got backed up behind slow teams at the first rappel. Then the same thing happened at the next AR I tried, so I quit the sport for good. I am not good at slow.
* If there are semi-technical routes where passing is possible, that would work. The Temple Double (East and West Temple), or the Guardian Quinfecta (N and S Guardian Angels, the two Northgate Peaks, and Pine Valley Peak) would be fun.
* The most reasonable prospect would be to describe a given route (or two, in different areas) and everyone simply post their times on it during the year, including documentation. Then announce results Jan 1, and establish a different route for the coming year.
* Humans like to measure their capabilities; it's perfectly normal. Some people go long, some short and fast, some for never-done, some to smell the flowers. It's all the same really; just personal preference.
* I would have preferred to be fabulously wealthy and slept with hundreds of women, but had to settle for mountains and canyons instead.

[CarpeyBiggs]

good points buzz... however, there could be some workarounds. 1 - canyons don't have to be descended in a certain order. consider an "all irish" canyon adventure. 8 canyons, do them in whatever order you want, up or down. or, you make the course long enough, and have enough variation in it that people aren't going the exact same routes. as for checkpoints, those are easy enough. just make each team take a picture there, no one has to man it, just have to prove that you went past it. gps could also work.

AR is not the right format, but a technical canyon wilderness race could be. just have to figure out a route that works.

[DRobb]

* I still feel the frustration from the first AR I did 15 years ago, when we got backed up behind slow teams at the first rappel. Then the same thing happened at the next AR I tried, so I quit the sport for good. I am not good at slow.
* If there are semi-technical routes where passing is possible, that would work. The Temple Double (East and West Temple), or the Guardian Quinfecta (N and S Guardian Angels, the two Northgate Peaks, and Pine Valley Peak) would be fun.
* The most reasonable prospect would be to describe a given route (or two, in different areas) and everyone simply post their times on it during the year, including documentation. Then announce results Jan 1, and establish a different route for the coming year.



Buzz Burrell I presume? Thanks for the input. You’re time on the “Zion Trifecta” (and about a million other things!) is amazing and inspiring. You’re right about the most logical solution being to post times for canyon link-ups online somewhere like Bakwin’s FKT (fastest known time) site. The only down side is that the “fun factor” is slightly reduced. It just seems like it would be some great laughs and some good times to be racing other teams at the same time. You’re also right about canyon gridlock being a possible problem especially at rappels, but only if this idea grew into something bigger. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m only imagining four or five teams showing up. As long as everyone’s polite about letting a faster team pass, there shouldn’t be any issues.
I think we need to quit brainstorming and just put someone in charge, have them name a date, tell us the rules, and make this happen. I nominate Jman (if he doesn’t mind me doing so) because he’s the one that got this ball rolling. (I wouldn’t mind doing it, but I’m a Bogley rookie and have no credibility. If I set a date and place, I’m afraid I’d be the only one there!) We’ll just keep it simple, fun, and low-key.
In addition to that, like Buzz said, we need a place to post times. Can we make a place for that on Bogley? Or would a different site entirely be better for that? Would anyone else even be interested in posting times?

[Buzz]

Yes, getting a few people together would certainly be more fun. I get to UT maybe 2-3 times/year so not sure where I'd be, but like you say, announce something and see who shows up.

I will note again, that describing 1 - 3 courses and letting people post times at their convenience would logistically be the easiest.

Passing is an interesting topic. My partner and I were climbing 50 pitches in a day in Eldorado Canyon a few years ago; we were simul'ing 16 routes in a little over 11 hours and were really cranked. Got to the base of one where a party was gearing up; we said while jogging up to the rock, "Mind if we go?", and the guy said, "Yes I mind, we were here first." We were taken aback, especially since they hadn't left the ground yet, and explained we'd be gone in literally 5 minutes, so please let us just pop up this, but he adamantly refused. We always play by the rules, so shaking our heads we had to move on to something else, because it wouldn't be right to be discourteous.

That fall my girlfriend and I made our first visit to Yosemite, and hiked up to Snake Dike after driving in that morning. A party of 3 from New York state was already on it, whom we immediately caught up with. They also adamantly refused the pass, again after multiple requests. We gnashed our teeth for a pitch, doubting we had brought enough water for this ordeal, when 3 Austrian guys ran up our ass. They were smiling and pleasant, even as "No" clearly had zero meaning to them. When their leader clipped into our belay, where the third person from the first party was still tied in, and consisted of 2 bolts on a blank face, meaning a fall from any one person would load the anchor for all 8 people, it was time to pull the trigger and get the heck up and out of there.

I realized in a cosmopolitan place like Yo, where gumbies and world-class intermingle, there is no local ethic so one must be polite while just doing what needs to be done. The next day on Royal Arches we got the firm "No!" again from a Belgian couple, and this time I didn't ask a second time, just saying "Sorry" and smiled pleasantly while shifting into turbo around left.

[Brian in SLC]

Passing is an interesting topic. My partner and I were climbing 50 pitches in a day in Eldorado Canyon a few years ago; we were simul'ing 16 routes in a little over 11 hours and were really cranked.

Didn't, uhh, one of them speed fellers in Boulder get fairly hurt in a speed climbing gig?

Bill's partner Tom I seem to dimly recall. Can't find the link to the report. Scary.

Funny group:

http://www.wwwright.com/climbing/minions/


I realized in a cosmopolitan place like Yo, where gumbies and world-class intermingle, there is no local ethic so one must be polite while just doing what needs to be done. The next day on Royal Arches we got the firm "No!" again from a Belgian couple, and this time I didn't ask a second time, just saying "Sorry" and smiled pleasantly while shifting into turbo around left.

Passing can be tough and a bit touchy.

I always think of the Euro crowd as being fairly saavy about passing, since it seems to be done so swiftly there. I climbed with a fairly well known older Belgian climber at their area in Freyr. We headed up a popular five pitch route, and, climbed through and passed a partly so quickly and seamlessly it made my head spin. They were fine with it. Commonly done.

[Buzz]

[QUOTE=Brian in SLC;480783]Didn't, uhh, one of them speed fellers in Boulder get fairly hurt in a speed climbing gig?

Bill's partner Tom I seem to dimly recall. Can't find the link to the report. Scary.]

Yes. Bill and I were going to try 100 pitches IAD, but a month prior I went in for knee surgery. He recruited Tom to take my place. Tom took a 100'+ whipper, stopped by a #2 cam. Didn't look good, but 6 months later he was climbing again.

[JennyMae]

I've got a crew ready!
Hey, let's make it the oldies against the young bucks. Or the girls against the boys? Toss in a leg wrestling match at the finish, eh?

[ratagonia]

Greece! Mount Olympus!

http://worldcanyoningtournament.com/index.php

Tom