Looking for Real Time Advice on Running Behunin in the Morning

[Exergy]

A few friends and I are hoping to run Behunin in the morning. We're experienced, but none of us have done this canyon before. The friendly folks at ZAC suggested there may be multiple waist deep pools ~100 feet long and recommended dry suits. This doesn't seem match the description that I'm reading in Toms book or other sites - although they're probably written to the general public that travel in warmer months. I've got the idea that there is one pool that can be bypassed and a few other places that will get our feet wet.

I understand Zion got rain and maybe snow today, but are drysuits an overly cautious recommendation? Packing a wetsuit for a bypassable section seems like overkill.

Any other recommendations for a Zion canyon where a wetsuit won't be needed?

[trackrunner]

first it has rained & or snowed so pools may be possible. wetsuit is better than hypothermia

second by passing the pool is discourage because of erosion from social trails. our increased continued access with the park depends on canyoneers sticking to the water coarse and not creating social trails.

must not have read tom's site:
"Where possible, avoid further erosion by traveling in the watercourse, rappelling and downclimbing rather than scrambling around. Many of these eroded areas are returning to a natural state since canyoneers have stopped using them."

[Exergy]

wetsuit is better than hypothermia

No doubt!



must not have read tom's site:
"Where possible, avoid further erosion by traveling in the watercourse, rappelling and downclimbing rather than scrambling around. Many of these eroded areas are returning to a natural state since canyoneers have stopped using them."

All tips are appreciated. Thanks for the reminder as I agree completely. From his book and site, it appears that Var-6 is an accepted route. Maybe this has changed since the guide was written?

(Var-6: Pass the drop and climb a small trail into the woods. After 40 feet, a trail leads left and down to a tree with slings. Rappel 50 feet back into the canyon at the edge of the pool.)

[trackrunner]

Maybe this has changed since the guide was written?


you should ask him ratagonia

[ratagonia]

No doubt!

All tips are appreciated. Thanks for the reminder as I agree completely. From his book and site, it appears that Var-6 is an accepted route. Maybe this has changed since the guide was written?
(Var-6: Pass the drop and climb a small trail into the woods. After 40 feet, a trail leads left and down to a tree with slings. Rappel 50 feet back into the canyon at the edge of the pool.)

Probably the way most parties do it.

Behunin is a popular canyon for rescues. Only one death so far.

Maybe it is just my mood late at night, but it is hard not to be snide. So I won't try to avoid my natural tendency... :crazy:

It snowed. Snow melts, and runs down the canyon. Behunin is relatively benign, but tomorrow, 11/7, I would expect all the rappels to be running with water from snowmelt. That kind of water is really cold. Being under it for a rappel will make the rappeller very cold. So yes, there are likely to be a couple waist-deep, unavoidable pools. But the real problem will be rappelling through the almost-ice-cold waterfalls. :cold:

(if you thought that part was snide...)

The book is written for people who know that after it snows, the snow will melt, and meltwater runs down the canyon. If you are a person that does not realize that, you should not canyoneer in Zion National Park. Pick up a couple of Kelsey's book, so he gets the blame. :facepalm1:

A well-equipped party could have a good time in Behunin tomorrow. Sounds like fun!!! But your request for information indicates you are unlikely to be well-equipped, even if you rent dry suits.

After a snowstorm, there are basically NO canyons in Zion that are dry. Zero. Nada. Nyet. After the melt cycle completes, perhaps.

My choice would be to take drysuits and do Keyhole and Pine Creek, assuming the flow in Pine Creek is not too burly. Class C skills recommended. :stud:

Tom :moses:

[Deathcricket]

No doubt!



All tips are appreciated. Thanks for the reminder as I agree completely. From his book and site, it appears that Var-6 is an accepted route. Maybe this has changed since the guide was written?

(Var-6: Pass the drop and climb a small trail into the woods. After 40 feet, a trail leads left and down to a tree with slings. Rappel 50 feet back into the canyon at the edge of the pool.)

If I'm thinking of the same spot, this is an accepted bypass. You climb a little trail to the Right (as you are looking downcanyon) and then a short 50 foot rap to bypass a nice pool down a vertical wall. And it's an awesome rap!

But the one where you for sure cant bypass is around rap 8 or 9, where you can go to the LEFT and rap off a tree. A lot of people have gotten their ropes stuck there trying to bypass that tree and required rescues. They even make you sign a specific condition that you wont rap off that tree on the permit. And its about 100 foot rap not 50ish. Now if you are careful you can rap into the very center of the pool and there is a rock you can stand on in 3 inches of water. The first guy down is for sure going to get wet, but he can help the rest of the party land on it. it's like 6 feet away from the rock and impossible without a guide/puller. You can also rap to the far wall on the right side. I have a video I can toss up. Keep in mind this guy is 6'3" and 230ish pounds. With smaller guys its a lot easier to pull them out and bypass with the secret rock.

But yeah in my opinion all the pools are avoidable and you could stay fairly dry if you are skilled at stemming and rapping. There is a couple section where it comes knee deep that you can't avoid. But I would still bring a wetsuit. Especially if it's flowing now. You don't have to put it on, by why risk hypothermia if someone gets wet? Not an acceptable risk IMO.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWh8xpUcXTk

[ratagonia]

If I'm thinking of the same spot, this is an accepted bypass. You climb a little trail to the Right (as you are looking downcanyon) and then a short 50 foot rap to bypass a nice pool down a vertical wall. And it's an awesome rap!

But the one where you for sure cant bypass is around rap 8 or 9, where you can go to the LEFT and rap off a tree. A lot of people have gotten their ropes stuck there trying to bypass that tree and required rescues. They even make you sign a specific condition that you wont rap off that tree on the permit. And its about 100 foot rap not 50ish. Now if you are careful you can rap into the very center of the pool and there is a rock you can stand on in 3 inches of water. The first guy down is for sure going to get wet, but he can help the rest of the party land on it. it's like 6 feet away from the rock and impossible without a guide/puller. You can also rap to the far wall on the right side. I have a video I can toss up. Keep in mind this guy is 6'3" and 230ish pounds. With smaller guys its a lot easier to pull them out and bypass with the secret rock.

But yeah in my opinion all the pools are avoidable and you could stay fairly dry if you are skilled at stemming and rapping. There is a couple section where it comes knee deep that you can't avoid. But I would still bring a wetsuit. Especially if it's flowing now. You don't have to put it on, by why risk hypothermia if someone gets wet? Not an acceptable risk IMO.


With some very careful, small-holds climbing, one can stay completely dry at this spot. 5.9 :stud:

One can set up a guided rappel here, but it is about 110 feet. Not the easiest set up (send the heaviest person down first).

There are a few other pools that are pretty close to unavoidable... can't say I have been there in wet conditions and tried to stay dry. I am, after all, a canyoneer. :cool2:

And, as stated, the problem is not the pools - more likely the waterfalls. :cold:

Tom :moses:

[Krrristi]

Sweeeeeet, glad this thread was posted. MrAdam and I will be doing Mystery and Behunin with a group this weekend and I was going to ask if I should go with a wetsuit or a drysuit. Sounds like I'll be picking up a drysuit, because I'm an Arizona girl whose toes start going numb in the mid-50s, cold is not something I like to experience. :cold:

Although I realize that I'm signing myself up for quite a bit of it this weekend. I'd like to add some questions for those of you who have experienced Zion in the winter.

-How do I go about layering under a drysuit? Would I just wear what I would normally wear for a dry hike, and then throw the drysuit on top of it? Or...does contact with water make me colder so I'd need more layers, or does the drysuit get sweaty and steamy so I'd want fewer layers....or..or...or.....

ack. I'm scared of the cold!!!!

-How much snow fell yesterday and how long do you think it'll take to melt? The weather forecast for this weekend changes every day, but it seems like we can expect some rain. Is it fair to assume the waterfalls with still be flowing?

-The information you guys gave on Behunin painted a good picture for me...any chance I could get similar insight into what Mystery Canyon will be like?

[oldno7]

Ever practiced with frozen ropes?

After the first series into the canyon, your ropes will likely freeze since these raps are in the watercourse.

The highs in Behunin "today are supposed to be 41, lows 18deg. It won't get above freezing in the shade.

[ratagonia]

Sweeeeeet, glad this thread was posted. MrAdam and I will be doing Mystery and Behunin with a group this weekend and I was going to ask if I should go with a wetsuit or a drysuit. Sounds like I'll be picking up a drysuit, because I'm an Arizona girl whose toes start going numb in the mid-50s, cold is not something I like to experience. :cold:

Although I realize that I'm signing myself up for quite a bit of it this weekend. I'd like to add some questions for those of you who have experienced Zion in the winter.

-How do I go about layering under a drysuit? Would I just wear what I would normally wear for a dry hike, and then throw the drysuit on top of it? Or...does contact with water make me colder so I'd need more layers, or does the drysuit get sweaty and steamy so I'd want fewer layers....or..or...or.....

ack. I'm scared of the cold!!!!

-How much snow fell yesterday and how long do you think it'll take to melt? The weather forecast for this weekend changes every day, but it seems like we can expect some rain. Is it fair to assume the waterfalls with still be flowing?

-The information you guys gave on Behunin painted a good picture for me...any chance I could get similar insight into what Mystery Canyon will be like?

Good questions Krrristi...

It is difficult to get the clothing layers right in a drysuit without experience on how your body reacts. Basically, wear fleece/ski underwear underneath adjusted to the conditions. I usually put on a thin and a thick on the bottom, and then probably less on the top. The bottom is very difficult to adjust as the ankle gaskets are the most difficult part of the system; the top can be adjusted more easily, including leaving the zipper open (when not near water) or pulling the top off and tying the arms around the waist (when you get too warm). Yes, contact with the water makes your legs especially cold - the dry suit itself provides no warmth, just dryness.

Six inches here at 5000 feet, melting off over the next few days. The head of Behunin is higher up (6500 feet) and shaded, so it will hold snow, but melting will be taking place, so the first couple raps will be running with snowmelt. Mmmmm. Then, it goes over the falls and into the shade, where it starts to freeze. Your rope is lying against the rock where the ice is forming ==> starts to freeze the rope into the ice. Makes the rope hard to pull. Draw straws for who gets to jug up the rope through the waterfall to re-set it differently??? Yeah, now that's what we call adventure!

Bringing an extra SET of ropes for Behunin this time of year is highly recommended. That way you can also get more ropes set up so people won't be standing around getting cold. Be careful of a potential thin ice veneer (black ice or verglass) getting to the top of the 3rd rap - stay on-rope all the way to the anchor please!

Mystery Canyon is quite a bit different. The entrance gully faces north so it will still have snow on it, might be easier with the ground frozen, might be harder with snow on it. The top of the death gully is at 6800 feet, so I suspect 1-2 feet of snow there, meaning it could be really treacherous. Skiing it is a possibility, but I'm looking for more snowpack before breaking out the sticks. The whole canyon is mostly in the shade, so it is less likely to be flowing, and more likely to be snowy and cold. If it has melted (if the temps go up), then the pool behind the dam might be a problem - ice cold wading to ??? deep? Once in the Narrows, there is a diaphragm-deep section below Mystery Falls that can be entertaining... I would want a drysuit for that!

Tough conditions in Zion right now. Sunny but cold here = some melting, but the snow up high will persist, especially in the shade. I tend to like Spry in these conditions as one that faces south, yet does not go as high nor have as large a catch-basin as Behunin. My suggestion would be Marble Canyon slots, especially for those coming from Arzinona.

Tom :moses:

[oldno7]

Maybe it goes without saying, but don't forget the neo on your extremities, feet, hands, head.

[Scott Card]

Be careful of a potential thin ice veneer (black ice or verglass) getting to the top of the 3rd rap - stay on-rope all the way to the anchor please!

That was the very first thing I thought of when the Behunin question was posed. Be careful between rap 2 and 3 particularly this time of year. One slip up and off and down, down, down you go at that spot. :eek2: It is deceptive because it doesn't look that bad. Add a little ice and flow?? Yikes. Yes, as Tom suggested, please stay on rope all the way to the tree anchor.

(Does sound like fun this time of year though....)

[Krrristi]

nice. I like the sounds of all this! Especially: "black ice" and "frozen ropes."

Thanks for the responses guys. We're definitely taking this a lot more seriously now!

:cold::cold::cold::cold::cold::cold:

[Don]

EDIT: Somehow I read the thread title as 'Bluejohn' instead of 'Behunin' and posted something completely irrelevant. Gone now.

[flatiron]

With some very careful, small-holds climbing, one can stay completely dry at this spot. 5.9 :stud:

One can set up a guided rappel here, but it is about 110 feet.

Tom :moses:

Absolutely can avoid water. Yes, tricky but doable. We did it this Sept. The guy rapping in the video rapped down way too low, you have to stay high. As or just b4 you come over that lip you need to pull yourself over to the right, which is difficult as it is against the fall line, and keep right. Better if you are using left hand for brake and your right hand and feet to pull yourself right. There was actually a log jammed several feet above water that I descended to, then did climbing move (5.9?, not sure but not
easy) over to opposite wall. Once 1st person down you can help others over. Really fun actually.

http://https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/310858_274016862621585_100000398196679_856521_2110 509005_n.jpg
http://https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314466_274016882621583_100000398196679_856522_5778 65586_n.jpg

[flatiron]

Sorry, last post did not show pics, my bad. This shows me (not in pic) helping friend over. As you can see move over from log to wall is balancey and slippery, especially for 1st person with no one pulling you over. Little holds for foot and hand. Fun to try, if you slip you are still on rappel with no harm done.

[Deathcricket]

Awww that stick underneath is cheatin!!!! :haha:

Just kidding, too bad it wasn't there when we hit it up. Next time we are in here, I'm gonna try it. Love a good challenge!


That was the very first thing I thought of when the Behunin question was posed. Be careful between rap 2 and 3 particularly this time of year. One slip up and off and down, down, down you go at that spot. :eek2: It is deceptive because it doesn't look that bad. Add a little ice and flow?? Yikes. Yes, as Tom suggested, please stay on rope all the way to the tree anchor.

(Does sound like fun this time of year though....)

x3! Dude that was my exact thought reading Tom's reply too. It was scary enough in warm weather with just slippery moss. In winter with ice? FAHHGGGETTT about it! I actually have footage of this section as well. I usually leave my GoPro on the whole way though. You never know when it might come in handy. Maybe when Kristi goes through we can see footage of it all icey and snowy super duper dangerous and compare videos. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1us06qkBOAw

[Exergy]

Thanks for all the practical advice and Behunin specific tips/tricks (friendly and snide alike:naughty:). We decided to postpone the trip and research winter hazards a bit more before attempting. No longer going with the hope that it can be done dry. Hopefully we'll get to it in the next week.

[Deathcricket]

Awww! Was hoping to see some winter footage of the place, bummer....

[Krrristi]

yeah our group wimped out too... the whole black ice thing....:cold: we did a couple death valley canyons instead and enjoyed the 70* weather. Thanks for the tips though, you guys probably saved at least two of my toes from frostbite.

[Deathcricket]

Damn, that rap is a B yo! We came loaded to the hilt expecting ice and snow. But it was pretty mellow and nice conditions. Brought 4 - 300 foot ropes in case of frozen stuck issues but just ended up showing that canyon who's boss, hehe. Never even put on wetsuits or even the warmer gear. Forgive the poor photography, this is more of a candid shot I guess. And yes canyon poles make excellent rope/pool retrieval tools, haha.

I would still love to see an unassisted descent on this if anyone has footage. Clearly this rap is still above my skill level. :2thumbs:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNqAx4JFaVM

[ratagonia]

Damn, that rap is a B yo! We came loaded to the hilt expecting ice and snow. But it was pretty mellow and nice conditions. Brought 4 - 300 foot ropes in case of frozen stuck issues but just ended up showing that canyon who's boss, hehe. Never even put on wetsuits or even the warmer gear. Forgive the poor photography, this is more of a candid shot I guess. And yes canyon poles make excellent rope/pool retrieval tools, haha.

I would still love to see an unassisted descent on this if anyone has footage. Clearly this rap is still above my skill level. :2thumbs:



Love those new helmets that look like a ball cap... :2thumbs::crazy::facepalm1:

T

[DOSS]

Love those new helmets that look like a ball cap... :2thumbs::crazy::facepalm1:

T

Yeah, Good thing his anchor didn't fail :crazy:

[ratagonia]

Yeah, Good thing his anchor didn't fail :crazy:

:duel:

[Deathcricket]

You guys wear helmets? Never heard that one before. Doesn't that kind of limit the amount of people who can go on a trip? Plus, why would I want to mess my hair up.

[Branin]

You guys wear helmets? Never heard that one before. Doesn't that kind of limit the amount of people who can go on a trip? Plus, why would I want to mess my hair up.
Helmet may have saved me some serious trouble just this week... I like the things.:nod:

[canyoncaver]

You guys wear helmets? Never heard that one before. Doesn't that kind of limit the amount of people who can go on a trip? Plus, why would I want to mess my hair up.

Nope, it only limits the amount of people that don't think their head is worth $90. Never liked canyoneering with them kind of people anyhow.

[Deathcricket]

Bah! I have been on 3 epic canyon trips now and in my expert opinion, they are not needed. Now quit pussifying this thread up ladies, be a man and post cool videos like me.

[ratagonia]

Bah! I have been on 3 epic canyon trips now and in my expert opinion, they are not needed. Now quit pussifying this thread up ladies, be a man and post cool videos like me.

Where do you strap-on the GoPro if you don't wear the helmet?

T

[Deathcricket]

Old trekking pole that I dont use anymore. Gets a better overhead 3rd person as I pwn the canyon.

And I can still save this thread by posting videos on topic. Woot!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgOxHdodaH4

[ratagonia]

Damn, that rap is a B yo! We came loaded to the hilt expecting ice and snow. But it was pretty mellow and nice conditions. Brought 4 - 300 foot ropes in case of frozen stuck issues but just ended up showing that canyon who's boss, hehe. Never even put on wetsuits or even the warmer gear. Forgive the poor photography, this is more of a candid shot I guess. And yes canyon poles make excellent rope/pool retrieval tools, haha.

I would still love to see an unassisted descent on this if anyone has footage. Clearly this rap is still above my skill level. :2thumbs:



Uh, well, not really.

There is a difference between MAKING a rappel difficult, and the rap being difficult on its own merits. The vid presents a case of the former.

the rap is not difficult, unless you make it so to avoid the waist-deep pool at the bottom.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

Old trekking pole that I dont use anymore. Gets a better overhead 3rd person as I pwn the canyon.

And I can still save this thread by posting videos on topic. Woot!



Awesome!

Nice looking rope there too, goes nicely with the helmet!

You just holding the pole in your hand?

T

[canyoncaver]

Bah! I have been on 3 epic canyon trips now and in my expert opinion, they are not needed. Now quit pussifying this thread up ladies, be a man and post cool videos like me.

You're right. It takes a REAL man to get a traumatic brain injury. Sorry for insulting your testosterone level. Have fun vomiting on your friends while they try to drag you to the hospital.

[CarpeyBiggs]

this is why you always wear a helmet... rope weighted a slab of rock, and it popped right off.

now surely, baseball sized chunk of rock from 35 feet wouldn't do any damage to deathcricket's noggin... but for the rest of us who like to rappel smoothly and not bounce off canyon walls like ping pong balls, hope that helmet never gets any use. but if/when it happens, i know i'll have a helmet on.

:2thumbs:

[Sandstone Addiction]

this is why you always wear a helmet... rope weighted a slab of rock, and it popped right off.

now surely, baseball sized chunk of rock from 35 feet wouldn't do any damage to deathcricket's noggin... but for the rest of us who like to rappel smoothly and not bounce off canyon walls like ping pong balls, hope that helmet never gets any use. but if/when it happens, i know i'll have a helmet on.

:2thumbs:


Astounding photo and very effective persuasion--thanks Carpey :2thumbs:

[Deathcricket]

this is why you always wear a helmet... rope weighted a slab of rock, and it popped right off.

now surely, baseball sized chunk of rock from 35 feet wouldn't do any damage to deathcricket's noggin... but for the rest of us who like to rappel smoothly and not bounce off canyon walls like ping pong balls, hope that helmet never gets any use. but if/when it happens, i know i'll have a helmet on.

:2thumbs:

When you get to my level with 3 canyons under your belt, I find I rap faster than a rock could fall. Now if you're a complete noob and rap slow, and never kick off the wall to work on your "shoulder slams", you might be wise to carry that extra gear. I just don't want it slowing me down when I pwn the canyon. Plus gotta maintain my perfect hairstyle when I hit the bottom for the ladies....

Plus we can all tell that is photoshopped. Anyone who is a pixel master can see it clearly.

[CarpeyBiggs]

:lol8:

[Deathcricket]

You just holding the pole in your hand?

T

No, it's duct taped to my ankle.