Newbie question on shoes

[n2outdrs]

Hello,

I am heading out to the San Rafael Swell next June, we will be doing the canyons in that area. Little Wild Horse and Bell, Ding and Dang and Crack Canyon. I was doing some checking on shoes.

I had been looking at the Five Ten Canyoneer as I am a whitewater kayaker and was looking at them for kayaking. I have read great things about them for Canyoneering but it seems like they would be hot for mid June...any advise or information you can give would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Judy

[trackrunner]

people use them from Jan to Dec in all weather & conditions. like most clothing layering is the key. wet & cold thick neo socks. dry & hot perhaps a wool sock that breaths well

[ratagonia]

Hello,

I am heading out to the San Rafael Swell next June, we will be doing the canyons in that area. Little Wild Horse and Bell, Ding and Dang and Crack Canyon. I was doing some checking on shoes.

I had been looking at the Five Ten Canyoneer as I am a whitewater kayaker and was looking at them for kayaking. I have read great things about them for Canyoneering but it seems like they would be hot for mid June...any advise or information you can give would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Judy

Yeah, what he said. They seem like too much to wear IN a kayak. Seems like Kayak shoes are usually more like slippers so they are not a problem in the low-volume kayaks in preponderance these days. Canyoneers are bulky and wide, tend to require a lot of sock to make them fit, and fit slender women's feet especially poorly.

:moses:

[Scott P]

I don't like the 5.10's in dry canyons in hot weather. They are rather pointless in canyons like Bell and Little Wildhorse as well.

Chances are in June (the driest month in the area) all those canyons will be bone dry. Ding-Dang may have water, but this is doubtful. Any normal shoe will do. Even the longer one, Bell-Little Wildhorse, I did with a five year old girl wearing normal shoes and on a short day. :wink:

[maarten.1975]

Well, here some feedback from another newbie.... :nod:
I just returned from my holiday in Utah, and I bought myself a pair 5.10 canyoneers for this trip.
Below you'll find my conclusion so far.

It water-conditions these shoes are awesome. I wore 4 mm neopreen socks, and I hopped in and out of the water all day in the Narrows in Zion. The amount of grip these shoes have is great (beware of algea though, I think no shoes will be able to handle algae on rocks and still have grip).
In mixed conditions I love the shoes as well. I did the Left Fork in Zion, and (wearing 3 mm neopreen socks) kept my feed dry during the hike towards there the first half of the day. No problems at all. Also once having wet feet after visiting the Subway, no problems at all during the hike back.
In dry conditions the shoes perform very well as well, they just don't fit my feed as well when wearing 'normal' socks. I might try wearing 2 thick socks on top of each other... well, in dry conditions and with normal socks I guess I prefer my regular hiking shoes.

I'd say: try them in a store both with normal (hiking) socks and with neopreen socks.
The grip is awesome, for me the question was whether how they'd fit and perform with neopreen socks in the water. And I love them!

Good luck!

[n2outdrs]

Thank you everybody for the great advice and information:)

[frank'n'beans]

try the 5.10 savant. same rubber less shoe.

[trackrunner]

try the 5.10 savant. same rubber less shoe.

but the reason I think he was attracted to this shoe for white water kayaking was not the sticky rubber but the water drainage. does the savant drain as well or does it get water logged like similar approach/trail shoes? product description seams to indicate the mesh is breathable & drainable. not sure how durable kayak shoes would need to be.

[frank'n'beans]

Tons of the whitewater kayakers up here in Tahoe use them for approach and down river use and I've done canyons in them for the past 3 years. they are waaaaay softer than the Canyoneers but seems they last 1/2 as long:cry1:... they dry really fast- drain well and are extremely comfy. they fit well into my lake kayak but seem a bit cumbersome in my river kayak. just my 2 penny's. I also wear them as my daily hiking shoes.

[oldno7]

They are nice drainable shoes. I've yet to get a year out of a pair, canyoneering.

You can't see, but I'm wearing them in the boat on my avatar:mrgreen:

[Deathcricket]

Honestly i stopped wearing my 5.10's. For some reason every time I do a canyon with lots of steep downhills, like Spry for instance it hammers the crap out of my toenails and turns them black and blue. Maybe a got the wrong size, but I suspect it's the design instead. And i don't find it supports my arches well and doing multiple canyons leaves me super sore the next day. Also I find the open sides next to the ankle let in way to much sand and small rocks. i would much rather recommend these 2. They are much improved over the 5.10's IMO.

Columbia Titanium and la sporttiva waterproof

4939849399

[jman]

Cricket,

The issue of getting black and blue toenails is not, usually, the shoe but rather how you walk downhill.

I've noticed a lot people who walk down hill are "toe walkers". I saw this a lot during wildland firefighting in st. George and the AZ strip. I never once had black toenails.

The correct way to walk downhill, is walking on your heel (a heelstrike) first then roll/transfer the rest of the energy to the rest of the foot - while keeping most of the energy in your heel. This shoulnt come as a surprise. But many peope dont do this. They "feel" like they have more control walking on their mid-sole to toes first. Therefore all the weight gets transferred to very small point on your foot and causes a lot of pain.

The 5.10s in my experience have more than exceeded my needs. Sand and rocks don't get in, very reliable traction, and never any black toenails or even blisters.

I would look at how you walk first, and then look at the shoe.

[kelleyp]

Hey Cricket, What kinda prices on those? Thanks, Peace Kelley

[CarpeyBiggs]

Cricket,

The issue of getting black and blue toenails is not, usually, the shoe but rather how you walk downhill.

I've noticed a lot people who walk down hill are "toe walkers". I saw this a lot during wildland firefighting in st. George and the AZ strip. I never once had black toenails.

The correct way to walk downhill, is walking on your heel (a heelstrike) first then roll/transfer the rest of the energy to the rest of the foot - while keeping most of the energy in your heel. This shoulnt come as a surprise. But many peope dont do this. They "feel" like they have more control walking on their mid-sole to toes first. Therefore all the weight gets transferred to very small point on your foot and causes a lot of pain.

The 5.10s in my experience have more than exceeded my needs. Sand and rocks don't get in, very reliable traction, and never any black toenails or even blisters.

I would look at how you walk first, and then look at the shoe.

i disagree. heel striking while going downhill is exactly what causes your toes to bust into the front of the shoe. by striking with your heel first, your ankle can not absorb any of the energy, so you are relying on just your knee and hip, and as the toes colide with the ground, the energy behind the ankle is transferred to the toes and into the front of the shoe. if you strike ball first, you have energy absorbed in the ankle, knee, and hip, and the pounding into the shoe is minimized.

heel strikes can also cause lots of other issues (like shin splints and tendonitis).

proper lacing techniques can help too. shoes with wide toe boxes help as well. however, if your feet are wet often, and you are going steeply downhill, you might just be prone to busting up toenails. it seems once it happens, it occurs more frequently. but yes, IMO it is a design flaw in the canyoneers. they are impossible to lace properly, for those of us with difficult feet. they beat my feet into shreds every time i wear them. with other shoes i have no problems.

[jman]

i disagree. heel striking while going downhill is exactly what causes your toes to bust into the front of the shoe. by striking with your heel first, your ankle can not absorb any of the energy, so you are relying on just your knee and hip, and as the toes colide with the ground, the energy behind the ankle is transferred to the toes and into the front of the shoe. if you strike ball first, you have energy absorbed in the ankle, knee, and hip, and the pounding into the shoe is minimized.

heel strikes can also cause lots of other issues (like shin splints and tendonitis).

proper lacing techniques can help too. shoes with wide toe boxes help as well. however, if your feet are wet often, and you are going steeply downhill, you might just be prone to busting up toenails. it seems once it happens, it occurs more frequently. but yes, IMO it is a design flaw in the canyoneers. they are impossible to lace properly, for those of us with difficult feet. they beat my feet into shreds every time i wear them. with other shoes i have no problems.

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's much easier to show in person. Heel strike downhill will solve most problems. My firefighting crew have probably walked more steep terrain than anyone here. My experience isn't limited to moderate elevation change. Walking on your heel first saved me during those 3 years. Never had a problem, ever. My crew had quite a few problems until our squad boss would yell at them to walk heels first downhill. Go figure, most problems were solved.

Btw, did you know that most 4-legged animals will do a heel-strike first when walking down hill? With horses, veternarians call it a "balanced foot" when they do that. And horses who walk toes first they have what's called a "imbalanced foot.

I will agree that lacing is important too. If you like your shoe loose while going downhill you will definitely have black toenails as you are sliding and squashing your toes in the front of the boot or shoe. Especially in 5.10s when they are wet.

[CarpeyBiggs]

certainly can't argue with personal results. so if it works for you, no need to worry about it. no question, everyone is different, and results will vary. this is one of the great debates in the running and long distance hiking world, as trackrunner can attest.

however, i can tell you from first hand experience that a heel strike is the main cause of busting up toes and often shin splints and tendonitis (in the tendons that are stretched when you try to hold up your big toe, not to be confused with achilles related issues, which are a result of striking to far forward on the toes). i walked close to 2500 miles last year, between 1300 miles on the PCT, 40 or so days in the grand canyon, and 3 months in nepal, covering some pretty rough terrain. i suffered chronic tendonitis and toe-bashing as a result of poor foot stride in april and may, eventually had to take 3 weeks off and get a cortisone shot just to rest it. the injury was directly related to foot strike. with the help of doctors, i had to relearn my stride, and the anatomically correct way is to strike on the midfoot (or ball) first. once i relearned it, problem solved.

there are heaps of books and online references devoted to solving this issue. almost all recommend against a heel-strike. most will recommend a midfoot strike. certainly, on steep terrain, it's more difficult to strike ball first, and it requires concentration to do it. it may even be uncomfortable for lots of folks, so a more neutral strike might be necessary. but in general, the rule is to strike ball first. however, when people are learning to strike near the forefoot, it can lead to other injuries, typically calf and ankle. this is because the body has to relearn and strengthen those muscles. but, our bodies are built to strike forefoot first, as the calf is one of the large muscles in the leg, and when trained properly, handles shock absorption well. if you strike on the heel, you are not able to use the calf to absorb downhill shock. i can't really recall many sources that suggest a heel strike is preferable, though i was biased based on my injury, so i suppose there may be some.

google "heel strike" or "foot strike" and you will return lots of good information and decide for yourself what is likely causing you problems. you'll also find that perfecting the foot strike it is quite a debate, especially among runners.

you can also google lacing techniques for suggestions on how to prevent toe bashing. however, 5.10 canyoneers are impossible to fix in this instance, since they have two crappy buckles. often times, you are also wearing a neoprene sock, which can cram up against the toes.

anyways, DC, I feel your pain. i have all the same issues with canyoneers. i had to switch to savants, but they wear out quick. the new insights look like they will be my new shoe of choice, since they are synthetic, but harder to find. i think bo is carrying them now though. so you get the good rubber, slightly less draining quality, but lower volume, lower weight, and pretty decent durability. at least, that's my hope.

:2thumbs:

[Deathcricket]

proper lacing techniques can help too. shoes with wide toe boxes help as well. however, if your feet are wet often, and you are going steeply downhill, you might just be prone to busting up toenails. it seems once it happens, it occurs more frequently. but yes, IMO it is a design flaw in the canyoneers. they are impossible to lace properly, for those of us with difficult feet. they beat my feet into shreds every time i wear them. with other shoes i have no problems.

I think you nailed it Carpey. Without actual laces and just the two buckles, I don't really get the tightness control i like and my foot probably slides around more than it should. And the constant pounding against the front of the shoe does me in. But something with laces gives me more finite control and its a better fit for me. Again that's just me, everyone has different designs of feet and different shoes all fit us differently.

I also do walk on the front/mid sole of my feet, pretty much never heel strike and don't intend to change that. I actually never paid attention until walking down lower refrigerator canyon yesterday, so was unable to answer the previous query, haha. Just easier to find shoes that fit me better and don't damage my feet so much instead of changing the way I walk.


Hey Cricket, What kinda prices on those? Thanks, Peace Kelley

Same price as canyoneers $100-145ish depending on where ya go. :2thumbs:

[Deathcricket]

anyways, DC, I feel your pain. i have all the same issues with canyoneers. i had to switch to savants, but they wear out quick. the new insights look like they will be my new shoe of choice, since they are synthetic, but harder to find. i think bo is carrying them now though. so you get the good rubber, slightly less draining quality, but lower volume, lower weight, and pretty decent durability. at least, that's my hope.

:2thumbs:

Sorry didn't see your response! I open like 10 threads at once and then read each one between tasks at work, so i missed this. :2thumbs:

My wife has gotten a nice pair of Keens from Bo's shop and they are working out awesome. They have the same Vibram soles for good traction too. I also find that good rubber for traction and a lighter less drainage shoe is a fair trade. I also love the La Sportivas (which I got at Bo's 2 years ago) have been holding up very decent. But I do no where near the amount of canyons you do so my mileage definitely varies. I only go out like once or twice a month. Speaking of which! I guess last time you went into Bo's I only missed you by a half hour! I almost had a chance to meet you in person. Aww well, I'll see you out there one of these times.
:2thumbs:

[jman]

Carpey, I should clarify that heel-strike should be done while walking. If I implied running - then that's my bad. Heel-strike while running is a bad idea! However, walking down-hill is a different story. I did google "heel strike" and "downhill" and with a quick search - it looks like most of the websites (credible or not) say to do heel-strike first while walking downhill. Anyways, you're right, personal preference.

You definitely have a lot of miles logged in for sure. Definitely impressive.

[Cirrus2000]

Ah, shoes are such a personal thing, as is the shape of one's feet. My feet are super wide - hobbit-like - and I'm thinking of wearing Canyoneers everywhere, from now on. They are perfect for my feet - so comfortable in all situations. I'm not sure how they'll look at work, but it's worth a try...

[utahiker]

Check out Zion Adventure Company in Springdale for "retired" canyoneers. I've seen them from $10 to $30(ish) depending on the condition.

[n2outdrs]

This is all great information I really appreciate your time.