Zion National Park Seeks Public Comment on Wilderness

[trackrunner]

http://www.nps.gov/zion/parknews/zion-national-park-seeks-public-comment-on-wilderness.htm
Zion National Park Seeks Public Comment on Wilderness

Date: October 25, 2011
Contact: Ray O'Neal, 435-772-7823
Contact: Marc Neidig, 435-772-0164

Zion National Park is seeking public comment on the park's wilderness permitting
procedures (formerly called backcountry permitting) and the demands placed on
the public by the current system. The park is exploring possible adjustments to
the permitting procedures to improve visitor services and experiences. Public
comments will be considered during the development of an updated permitting plan
scheduled for release by February 1, 2012.

Areas and activities within the park that require wilderness permits continue to
grow in popularity. Wilderness permits are required for all overnight trips, as
well as day trips into many of the park's slot canyons. As the demand for a
limited number of wilderness permits has increased, so has the competition. Many
visitors wait for hours or, in some cases, overnight to obtain wilderness
permits for activities within Zion National Park. The current wilderness
permitting system allows visitors to secure permits through a reservation system
for roughly 75% of all areas. Reservations for permits in the most popular
sections of the park are often booked two to three months in advance. The
remaining permits are issued up to one day in advance on a first come-first
served basis at the Zion Canyon Visitor Center. The demand for the first
come-first served permits results in long lines and significant waits. The park
is seeking to resolve these issues and improve operations.

The public is invited to provide comments through December 15, 2011. Please
visit http://parkplanning.nps.gov/zion to review the document and submit
comments. Comments can also be mailed to Zion National Park, Zion Wilderness
Permits, Springdale, UT 84767.

For additional information, please contact Ray O'Neil at 435-772-7823 or Annette
Werderich at 435-772-7611.

[trackrunner]

no overnight or camping. those waiting in line first thing in the morning get to draw a random number for order of permit. if you haven't made up your mind on what permit you want NO CANYON FOR YOU . . . NEXT! or get sent to the back of the line. early in the morning during the best hiking time is not the time to ask the rangers questions for 20 minutes & ask for a copy of beta to make up your mind.

[Iceaxe]

I still haven't found where you actually post or send your comments, but here are the topics open for discussion....

Topic Questions Instructions:
First, please review the description of the issue for which we are seeking input. Second, please review the topics below and provide your preferences and comments in the areas provided.

Thank you for interest in Zion National Park.

Topic Questions:

1. Would you prefer the current system remain in place?
This means 75% of the spaces may be reserved ahead of time and 25% of permits are available by walk-up only. Walk-ups spaces are awarded on a first come first served basis. Long waits for those wishing to obtain walk-up permits awell as those who have reservations will continue. The postive aspect of this system is that it provides opportunities for those who have not planned ahead.

2. Would you prefer to have all resources available for on-line reservation? Currently 75% are available on line two to three months prior to a trip. This type of reservation would not change. But the other 25% of reservations would be available on-line several days prior to a trip date allowing for last minute planning and reservations. This alternaitve would require the use of the internet for all reservations, but could be done from any location with internet availablility. This option should significantly reduce morning lines. In the future if demand becomes high reservations could be by on-line lottery.

3. Would you prefer to have a manual morning lottery to obtain walk-up spaces? Submit you name in a name into a hat for selection. The lottery would remove the need to arrive early to be first in line. Internet access would not be required. You would be required to be present at the Visitor Center to participate. The length of morning lines would not decrease and may increase due to the time required to administer the lottery. This option would provide opportunities for those who have not planned ahead.

[Iceaxe]

Found it!

Here is the link where you can respond and post actual comments:

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/commentForm.cfm?documentID=43891

[Iceaxe]

Let's get some discussion going on the different options. My current thoughts are:

Option #1: Sucks

Option #2: first or second choice???

Option #3: first or second choice???

I see benefits and pitfalls to both option 2 and 3. I like the security that is provided in option 2. I like the ability to mix things up at the last minute that is provided in option 3. With option 2 I see some late night waiting for the remaining 25% of permits to become available, but that is much preferred to getting up at some ungodly hour to stand in a permit line. With option 2 I would still expect to be able to pick up any unused permits at the backcountry desk.

Thoughts???

:cool2:

[restrac2000]

Seems like a hybrid system would be desirable.

#1: Zion should keep the Backcountry Desk open later and have the permits available more in advance. I see no downside except cost of manning the desk during usable service hours for the public. However, providing more permits earlier could be a loss for some last minute canyoneers. I actually like the 75/25 breakdown for online use but maybe a less arbitrary # could be sought.

#2 Seems problematic and would likely lead to early hoarding and a large amount of attrition with permit use. Also problematic for the few people who may not have access to the internet or know of the option. Leaving some permits for walking seems like an important service to part of the community (not sure what percentile).

#3 Interesting. Run it at night not in the morning. I like the randomness of it but creates a problem for those with the flexibility to do other canyons that may have sold out. What about a computer kiosk at the Visitor Center. You can sign in 72 hours in advance for the lottery (authenticated name, etc) and just check an online notification system if you one. Waiting in line early in the morning to sign in for a lottery that you lost would suck though. Worse than just waiting in line?

Phillip

[xxnitsuaxx]

I included this comment

"I would like to see an option for printing out a Red Tag (driving and parking in the canyon during high season) for those who have Express Permits and who are doing a canyon that requires a Red Tag. The whole point of the Express Permit is to never have to visit the backcountry window, something that is impossible for those who drive down from Provo\SLC in the evening (after the window closes) and then have to start a canyon by 3 or 4 the next morning. Allowing Express Permits but not letting us print out Red Tags kind of defeats the purpose."

I've never heard anyone else complain about this and it hasn't really been an issue for me (I always ask the ranger to put me into the system over the phone and then I leave a note in my windshield explaining that I have a red tag.) but I still think it would be nice.

[Bshelton]

Question? I have not been to the site yet I will shortly.

Is there any discussion taking place on the quota amount? Increase or decrease?

IMHO the current system seems to work well, with the exception to the long lines and congestion in the morning at the desk.

I like the idea of solving this problem by having an electronic kiosk outside of the desk available for 24 hour use (maybe two). The desk would still be an option for those looking for information or guidance and for those familiar with what they are looking for can use the kiosk. Permits would become available at the kiosk and the desk the day before through the day of. Similar to an airport ticketing system or newer movie theaters.

This also allow people to reserve ahead of time and make last minute trips.

Another option would be to split the online reservations into a couple of release dates. Possibly 50% as normal then reserving the release of the next 25% until 30 days out. This way if you didn't jump on the computer 3 months ago you would still have two other options to secure the permit you are looking for.

Make the online permits available to print out 24 hours before the trip date or at the kiosk this way if the park needs to revoke the permit for any reason they can have this control via an online service. You would get a notice explaining your permit was revoked when you went to print it.

Just throwing out some of the things i've mumbled under my breath when trying to permit behind the guy with a hundred questions about the subway.

[jman]

Posted my ideas! This will be very interesting to see how this turns out...and to WHAT they actually listen to.

I did say, at the very least to increase the Subway permits to 80/day. 50 reservation, and 30 walkins. That's almost a duh for improving the permit system. Removing the quota would be fantastic, although improbable.

"What are are you here for?"
"Subway", "Subway", "Subway", "Subway", "Mystery", "Subway", "Subway", "Pinecreek", "Subway", "Pinecreek", "Subway", "Subway"...etc.

[restrac2000]

Isn't the quote system officially in place for another decade?

[Felicia]

I think that there has been some great discussions here on Bogley about ways to improve the permit system. Here is a link to one discussion.: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?57979-Subway-Permits

(I wonder if The Park has been reading Bogley?)

I'm sure Tom will chime in when available, but maybe the Zion Canyoneering Coalition may also provide guidance.

:popcorn:

[accadacca]

I think that there has been some great discussions here on Bogley about ways to improve the permit system. Here is a link to one discussion.: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?57979-Subway-Permits

(I wonder if The Park has been reading Bogley?)
There is no question that they read Bogley. In fact there have been several rangers, officials and employees who have posted here.

[Scott P]

early in the morning during the best hiking time is not the time to ask the rangers questions for 20 minutes & ask for a copy of beta to make up your mind.


I assume many people have to when they find that the canyon they wanted has no openings.


Thoughts???



If the weather forecast is good, let any people print of their own reserved permit online the day/night before. It would save the NPS a lot of trouble too. As long as the weather is good, what's the point of standing in line and picking one up in person?

[Bootboy]

[/B]

If the weather forecast is good, let any people print of their own reserved permit online the day/night before. It would save the NPS a lot of trouble too. As long as the weather is good, what's the point of standing in line and picking one up in person?

How many people take a printer to Zion with them?

[Scott P]

How many people take a printer to Zion with them?


15 cents at the library (or do at home before leaving).

[Bshelton]

How many people take a printer to Zion with them?

If they "post" printable permits 24 hours in advance most will be able to use this option.

If for some reason this is not an option for someone, I still like the idea of a kiosk available 24/7 outside the BC building. If someone arrives late the night before their trip and didn't have the chance or ability to print the permit they can run over to the kiosk and print their permit for the morning. All this without lines or hassle.

[Iceaxe]

Some of you are confusing reservation with permit. In Zion they are NOT the same thing. In Zion your reservation allows you to pick up a permit. After studying this for a few minutes it appears the backcountry desk is trying to eliminate the camping in permit line problem. Which is something we as canyoneers have been asking them to do for some time.

The more I think about this the more I like Option #2, at least out of the three options given. In option #2 the system stays the same in regards to reserving a permits. The only difference is the 25% of walk-in permits will become available for on-line reservations several days in advance. You still need to pick up the permit but you will not be required to show up at the crack of dawn. I also think this will help eliminate the early crowds at many of the popular canyons. If you have a reservation there is no reason to get up early to do Pine Creek. A leisurely noonish start would be no problem.

Option #3 is my second choice. They system stays the same in regards to reserving a permits. The only difference is the 25% of walk-in permits will be issued in a lottery when the backcountry window opens.

Option #1 is what we have now and it sucks.

The one problem I have with all three options is the number of permits that go unused out the 75%. Plans often change when people are making reservations 3 months in advance.

My suggestions:
State clearly which of the three 'given' options is your preferred choice! I have been to enough of these rodeos to know that the three options above are all that is really being considered.

If you want to make other suggestions like upping the number of permits or anything else please separate them into there own section.

I also plan to wait a couple days before making my comments to see if anyone has a convincing reason to vote for option #3 over #2. To me option #2 and #3 are really close for which should be my first choice.

:cool2:

[reflection]

Interesting that firm options came into place, before a clear description of user demands and agency challenges was/were described. Citizen involvement in tandem with agency action should be looked at. What may interest a citizen may not practically meet the needs of the agency. I don't mean to be abstract. I've spent too much time talking with rangers and have learned their views sometimes are similar to the publics, but often different. Proposals/procedures, if they change need to be beneficial to both/all sides.

Challenges with the current system.
1. RESERVATIONS NOT USED. Many reservations are never followed up on, and spots released too late in the day for an interested party to use. Pine Ck or Keyhole may be exceptions. Something needs to change here. More folk need to use the express permit system? Or permits need to be released at least by 9am. Or, reservation holders have a duty to report intended non-use or decrease in the number of parties intended to use a permit. Example; 6 person reservation; users end up with only 2. This problem shows up a lot re Orderville and at times Pine Ck. Backcountry office will show a full reservation of 50 for Orderville and then once in it, one or none groups appears.

2. LEFT FORK/SUBWAY, NARROWS top down, and MYSTERY - THE DEMAND LEADERS in the morning lines. Parties with printed reservations that can quickly and efficiently communicate with a ranger, vs. walk in citizens (that don't have a written outline to give to the ranger) that slowy and confusingly report their request and then follow up with queries.
The agency can and should separate the windows and require parties to have filled out a sheet (if no reservation precedes) so that the permit can proceed quickly. Walk in's for busy zones: As to Left Fork, I'd allow a walk in party no more than six permits (not 12) and I'd bump up the allowed number of permits for the canyon. On the agency side there need to be more rangers. NO less than two windows and one ranger monitoring (filled out forms) & no less than two lines; Those with questions (they use to pose at the window) could be responded to by the roving ranger. Also, signs could be posted: Left Fork, Mystery, Permits available, NONE. Folk still in the lines, for those permits, could then leave or immediately shift their written application to a new canyon.

3. QUOTA System. Advanced Reservations vs. Walk in. Percentage allocation. Mystery Canyon. Maybe bump the allowed visits to 18. Two advanced groups of 6 each allowed and then up to 6 walk in's allowed the day before. Zion Narrows? Don't know the allocation, in terms of demand, as to how many, if ever are being turned down - at least day tripppers.
Left Fork Subway. A big challenge; balancing resource protection, safety (so many accidents in there) and number of people. I'd bump the allowed # up and keep 4 groups x 6 permits = 24 in the available walk in permit line. Make's no sense to have two parties snag 12 person permits on a walk in basis, at least if it deals with the busy left fork.

RSOLVING LONG LINES at the backcountry window. As explained above; run two windows, with a separate window to start out with, that deal with Left Fork and Mystery, and then with full Zion Narrows (and then anything else). And have a ranger adjacent to the lines, assisting and organizing folk. Expand the express permit system. Have a computer and printer inside the bldg. early in the morning, where folk can print their permit. (if they haven't been able to do it before). Allow parties to obtain permit (if they have a reservation) more than one day in advance. It's such a royal hassle to wait in the morning line (for a reserved permit for the next day) and then take off for the intended activity that day.

USER PATTERNS. If folk travel 4-6 hours or a full day, to reach Zion, in the afternoon or eve (and they don't have an express permit in line), if unable to get the permit at either the I-15 or main backcountry station, they end up racing to the moring line at the backcountry office. (They even do this with a reservation). The park could have a kiosk or computer availabe to deal with folk already having reservations. Otherwise it's first come, first served, or numbers handed out (lottery) and names pulled by 8 am? This for the Left Fork, Mystery and Zion Narrows. Also, the Park could move a portion of the permit system, for a 2-3 hour period in the morning, so that groups of people would be separated, and not all congregate in one zone. LF, Mystery and Narows folk line up in one zone, and others in another area. And those with reservations already, there is either a kiosk, computer for them to individually print out the permit, or there is a NEW window to take care of these folk. Honestly, I don't see human user patterns change that much, in terms of being able to drive down days in advance.

MATCHING CITIZEN AND AGENCY INTERESTS. I've sent too many letters to folk at Zion Park and later learned the text or content was mostly put in a stack and possibly never read or considered. Or that ideas myself or others offered, didn't match the intended action of the agency. Most often I saw agency proposed action, that was internally driven, and in some cases modified based on SOME BIG USER GROUP (like Boy Scout Agency) making noise. ZCC is dormant, inactive and will or will not be a player in this matter? I don't know. If an organization stepped forward, with some cogent ideas, and then met with the agency, something might come of it. Otherwise, a volley of letters, at least in my view, if they contain a scattering of disjointed commentary are not going to be that beneficial. Yes, agency folk say they read letters, but they are no different than the rest of us. If they see an organized, relevant and compelling piece it will or might catch their eye.

Advocacy and engagement with agency people in Zion. The process has evolved for me. Once upon a time, lot's of public meetings and open houses, and lotsa letters. Long ago I didn't know many of the folk down there. Now I know quite a few. Personally I'd rather meet with these folk and find out from them, which way they hope to stretch, expand, retract or move. And only after that, work to craft alternatives they are generally comfortable with. Sending letters, unless on the letter head of the LEADING canyoneering association, may not make much difference, particularly if folk address a multitude of issues and express a variety of interests. That's the benefit of a group. Simplifying, organizing, engaging and then hoping to make a difference with the decision makers.

Yikes, one day I can simplify and share a mindset in only one or two lines? Let's see. For now, skip the letters, let's go meet and discuss interests and views with the agency; and after that, craft alternatives, that the park is willing to operate within. (but who goes to the meeting and under what agency authority or agenda; and are the participants ego and control driven or do folk go hoping to serve canyoneers and the agency too?)

[restrac2000]

Reflection,

I would have preferred to seen an effort by the Park to engage the public at meetings, etc before they limited it to 3 options as well. Is there a way to facilitate a meeting with them (public format) to help talk about the options from scratch before being forced to choose from these agency options? Sometimes a system needs to be recreated not just built onto the existing structure.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

I would have preferred to seen an effort by the Park to engage the public at meetings, etc before they limited it to 3 options as well.

Having been through these things before I'm guessing the Park has already chosen an option and this is just a trail balloon to see how the canyoneering community will respond. It also crosses the T's and dots the I's as far as the Park is concerned on public input. The Park 'might' tweak their preferred option if the canyoneering community has an extremely strong desire, but probably not.... when it comes to Zion the park does pretty much what it wants.

This is pure speculation on my part.... but I'm guessing the Park has already decided on option #2.

Option #1 is there because the NPS always has the "don't change anything" as one of the choices.

Option #2 is nicely placed as the center option. It is much more detailed than the other options, including how the system could be expanded at a future date "This option should significantly reduce morning lines. In the future if demand becomes high reservations could be by on-line lottery." The more detail and thought put into this option is why I believe it is the chosen one.

Option #3 is there because the option has been widely discussed among canyoneers (and some rangers) for a couple of years. And it makes for a nice option.

[restrac2000]

I hope you are wrong as well but I wouldn't be shocked if there is already an internal direction to the changes.

Situations like this is why I believe an organization could be valuable. I don't necessarily believe an organization supporting a specific outcome (other than the vague idea of "Access") is needed. However, I think having a voice to initiate early dialog and working groups to increase stakeholder input into the process before limitations like this are published could be helpful. Seems like we are always left with reacting to their decision. Fostering early interaction could be an improvement.

Who knows. Lots to think about.

Phillip

[trackrunner]

kind of like shane but leaning to a different option that i could be talked in to supporting option 2.

I thought when the park did this permit system they should have had the morning lottery from option 3. so that's why I support option 3.

I wonder how hard it would be to reserve a permit for a popular canyon a few days away when it's release from option 2 if you are already in the park?

[Iceaxe]

I wonder how hard it would be to reserve a permit for a popular canyon a few days away when it's release from option 2 if you are already in the park?

Probably no more difficult than it is now. In other words you will want to be on-line at a specific time when the canyons are released. I figure that canyoneers will figure out the release schedule in a couple days if its not posted by the Park. Lots of ways to get on-line in Springdale if need be, best of all you will not have to drive down from Kolob or over from the East side to stand in a line a 3 am.

The more I think about it the more I like option #2. Anything so I don't have to stand in line at 6 am is an improvemnet. Maybe release the 25% five days before? That would cure a lot of problems as few people schedule five striaght days in Zion.

[Iceaxe]

Bump...

Any pro's or con's we have over looked with options 2 or 3?

Anyone prefer option #1?

Whatever your preference please take the time to email the Park. it only takes a couple of minutes.

Here is the link to post your comment:
http://parkplanning.nps.gov/commentForm.cfm?documentID=43891

[Iceaxe]

I sent in my questionnaire, below is my response for anyone else that might find it useful. If you don't agree with me that is cool, but please take 5 minutes and send in a response.



Option #1: This is the least desirable of the supplied options.

Option #2: This is my preferred option.

Option #3: This is my second choice.

Comments: Option #2 or #3 would be a big improvement over the current situation. I would also prefer to see the ratio of long term reservation versus short term reservation split at 50% each. I understand the need for long term reservations, but I'm concerned about the high number of long term reservations that go unused. Short term reservation have a higher percentage of usage as plans are less likely to change.

I appreciate the fact that you have noticed the current permit system has some flaws and that you are working to reduce them.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

[Branin]

I included this comment

"I would like to see an option for printing out a Red Tag (driving and parking in the canyon during high season) for those who have Express Permits and who are doing a canyon that requires a Red Tag. The whole point of the Express Permit is to never have to visit the backcountry window, something that is impossible for those who drive down from Provo\SLC in the evening (after the window closes) and then have to start a canyon by 3 or 4 the next morning. Allowing Express Permits but not letting us print out Red Tags kind of defeats the purpose."

I've never heard anyone else complain about this and it hasn't really been an issue for me (I always ask the ranger to put me into the system over the phone and then I leave a note in my windshield explaining that I have a red tag.) but I still think it would be nice.
Wait, we can get red tags with our permits?!?!?!:cool2:

[Branin]

Posted my ideas! This will be very interesting to see how this turns out...and to WHAT they actually listen to.

I did say, at the very least to increase the Subway permits to 80/day. 50 reservation, and 30 walkins. That's almost a duh for improving the permit system. Removing the quota would be fantastic, although improbable.

"What are are you here for?"
"Subway", "Subway", "Subway", "Subway", "Mystery", "Subway", "Subway", "Pinecreek", "Subway", "Pinecreek", "Subway", "Subway"...etc.

I, for one, would hate to see the quota system leave completely. Waiting in line in Pine Creek, Keyhole, and Subway drives me nuts. There are certainly some canyons that could take more visitors without this problem, and maybe without resource damage, but the three named above give out PLENTY of permits.

[restrac2000]

It seems unlikely that they will ever allow red tags to be printed at home or off-site, just too many chances for cheating the system. We have to remember they were originally designed to be used by lodge guests. Getting red tags for canyons is an exception to the rule, not the intended purpose. In fact, I have been denied red tags more often than not when asked. Heck, they made us ride the bus when we got married there.

Phillip

[Iceaxe]

Heck, they made us ride the bus when we got married there.

:lol8: That's just mean.... a bride deserves a carriage of her own.

[Iceaxe]

We have to remember they were originally designed to be used by lodge guests. Getting red tags for canyons is an exception to the rule, not the intended purpose.

A few years back I had a red tag to do a canyon. After we had parked and was getting our gear ready a rangerette stopped me and asked what the hell we were doing.... I explained the deal to her.... she made us pack our gear back up, drive down and park at Canyon Junction, and ride the shuttle up.... she followed us in her ranger car the entire way to make sure we followed her interpetation of a red tag. By the time we did everything she requested the shuttle was running.... that little deal set us back about 2 hours time wise for our intended canyon.

[Iceaxe]

Bump... Get your comments in. You have until December 15th to be heard, don't lose the opportunity.

Thanks!

[The Good Cop]

Thanks for the bump Shane, just got my comments in.

[ratagonia]

Bump Bump Bump

Me, I prefer #3 to #2, but really, I prefer a combo - Long term reservations, short term reservations, AND a morning lottery.

Whatever your preference please take the time to email the Park. it only takes a couple of minutes, at most. They made it easy!!!

Here is the link to post your comment:

http://parkplanning.nps.gov/commentF...cumentID=43891

Tom

[Don]

Yeah, thanks for the bumb; I put this off till I forgot about it. Just sent my comment.

[Iceaxe]

The downside I see with #3 is it still means I have to get up at 6am to go stand in line at 7am the day BEFORE (because permits are issued one day in advance).

With option #2 I see having to set an alarm for midnight 3 or 4 days in advance, rolling over in my nice warm bed and punching a couple keys on my laptop/smart phone/tablet before rolling back over and going to sleep.

But really.... Either #2 or #3 is an improvement over the current up all night standing in line the day before approach that is curently used.

I would also like to see the lottery held for all remaining permits the morning of.

But whatever you do.... please take a minute to comment.

[Cirrus2000]

I said I'd prefer a hybrid of 2&3. 50% go to the 3 month reservation system. 25% to either 4 or 7 days in advance, online. 25% morning lottery. Plus, could they put up a board saying how many spots are left, with live computerized update, in the most popular canyon, so people can make plans in advance while they're in line.