Beetles Killing Tamarisk

[oldno7]

I first thought they said the beetle had to defoliate a tree 3 years in a row to be successful, this article now says 4-5.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=17525823&nid=1012

[restrac2000]

Seems like the project has been a success thus far. Lower Desolation Canyon is a different place now, and they didn't have a direct release there.

I am all for science based management, but this comment seems over-confident: "There

[Sandstone Addiction]

Can you just imagine all the sandy beaches at Lake Powell that will be available once the tamaracks are gone? And just think, you might be able to actually get to the river banks on the Colorado near Moab without a death wish. Wow, you might even be able to see the river from the road...

Sounds too good to be true, so I'll believe it when I see it. :nod:

[peakbaggers]

I live in Grand Junction where they first released some of these critters and frequently travel to Moab where there's been a lot of defoliation. It's great to get rid of these trees, however, in some areas where new native growth is coming in, you may not like the results. I've seen stands of willows several feet high and more dense than the tamarisks. They're as difficult or more difficult to pass through than the tamarisks. In addition, an article released in our area a year or two ago showed the results of a new study that found that the tamarisks didn't really use any more water than the native species - willows & cottonwoods. Water consumption was one of the main reasons used to argue for the elimination of the tamarisks. All this makes me wonder if we will be any better off when it's all said & done. And there's still the ever present risk of when there's practically no tamarisks left, what are these bettles going to turn to to feed on. Maybe their population will just naturally shrink - maybe it won't and like a plague of locusts, they'll go in search of a new food source. Never say "never."

[restrac2000]

I am still a firm believer in the prioritizing of native over invasive. The natives will likely invade at higher than "ideal" human levels until we see a more aggressive hydrodynamic regime. Thats not likely ever to happen again in much of the west.

I wonder about the post-tamarisk beetle as well. Its seems likely that a small portion of the population will have an ability to eat (maybe to a lower nutritional or energetic level) native plants and then natural selection kicks in. Scary thing about messing with inverts is there generation time is so quick=we'll know the answer either way pretty soon,

Like the outcome thus far.

Phillip

[jb]

Can you just imagine all the sandy beaches at Lake Powell that will be available once the tamaracks are gone?

Kelsey's opinions nothwithstanding, there are no tamaracks in Utah, and especially not at Lake Powell. There is tamarisk. Tamaracks are something else entirely (a kind of larch--which is a genus of deciduous conifers in the pine family--though the word is sometimes applied to larches in general). Sorry, it's a pet peeve.

[BLUEberryBOB]

The last time I checked the Chinese Carp that were brought here to 'kill something in the water' ended up taking over our waterways.
Just leave it alone, nature will kill it off eventually, bring them beetles here and we're going to have 2 problems instead of one.

These eco-nuts are... nuts. :roll::facepalm1::crazycobasa:

[restrac2000]

The last time I checked the Chinese Carp that were brought here to 'kill something in the water' ended up taking over our waterways.
Just leave it alone, nature will kill it off eventually, bring them beetles here and we're going to have 2 problems instead of one.

These eco-nuts are... nuts. :roll::facepalm1::crazycobasa:

"Econuts" had little to do with this particular case, this was done by highly educated professors and land managers. There is data to support their efforts.

The "Asian Carp" is actually a grouping 8 different species who all have very different environmental histories. The Silver Carp is the one most people are familiar with recently. It is believed they escaped from aquaculture farms multiple times over the last 2 decades. I am not aware that they were intentionally introduced for biocontrol.

The "Common Carp" was actually introduced more than a century ago well before our understanding of ecology and biology was nuanced. They were introduced as a food source, managers thinking America would take to eating them like Asians and Europeans have. They are low on the food web and therefor "cheap" meat. Americans don't like to eat carp though.

All of them have messed up diverse ecosystems and are great examples of the issues of invasive species. But I don't know many folks that could be honestly labeled "econuts" that are remotely related to these issues.

[Sandstone Addiction]

[QUOTE=BLUEberryBOB;475383]Just leave it alone, nature will kill it off eventually

How long will that take?

I've been waiting for 44 years and it aint happened yet!

If you can't tell already, I hate 'em :angryfire: --a lot more than little tiny beetles.

[BLUEberryBOB]

[QUOTE=BLUEberryBOB;475383]Just leave it alone, nature will kill it off eventually

How long will that take?

I've been waiting for 44 years and it aint happened yet!

If you can't tell already, I hate 'em :angryfire: --a lot more than little tiny beetles.

Until those 'tiny beetles' turn in to voracious little bastards and eat all your fruit crops! :fitz:

[Sandstone Addiction]

[QUOTE=Sandstone Addiction;475429]

Until those 'tiny beetles' turn in to voracious little bastards and eat all your fruit crops! :fitz:

I agree that there are risks involved, but something has to be done.

I mean, have you driven along the Potash Road down river from Moab? It's a slickrock wall on one side and a tamarisk wall on the other--you can only see the river in a few places...just sayin.

[ratagonia]

I agree that there are risks involved, but something has to be done.

I mean, have you driven along the Potash Road down river from Moab? It's a slickrock wall on one side and a tamarisk wall on the other--you can only see the river in a few places...just sayin.

And???

Sorry, I just don't see the connection. Why "something has to be done"???

Eco-systems change. They don't conform to human ideals. They do their own thing. "God's will" if you wish. Perhaps you are suggesting the BLM mow them all down and plant nice hedges so the view of the river for the Potash truck drivers will be so much more orderly?

That said, yeah, I view the Tamarisk as a pest. Glad to see something controlling its population. I for one would not be surprised if the bug eventually figures out how to survive on something else. Fruit trees seems an unlikely target for it, however.

Tom

[restrac2000]

From http://www.discovermoab.com/tamarisk.htm : (frown....not citations or author name)

Will these beetles eat other types of vegetation?
Extensive testing was undertaken and some non-target feeding was seen on Frankenia. There are four native species in the southwest that are related to tamarisk/saltcedar but not closely related. They are in a different plant family (Frankeniaceae) with tamarisk being in the plant family (Tamaricaceae) but both plants are in the same plant order (Tamarricales). Studies suggest that the larvae could feed and develop on Frankenia but the studies also showed the adult beetles were much less attracted to this plant, and they laid eggs much less frequently on Frankenia than on tamarisk. The second generation of beetles was even less likely to lay eggs on the Frankenia.

[Sandstone Addiction]

And???

Sorry, I just don't see the connection. Why "something has to be done"???

Eco-systems change. They don't conform to human ideals. They do their own thing. "God's will" if you wish. Perhaps you are suggesting the BLM mow them all down and plant nice hedges so the view of the river for the Potash truck drivers will be so much more orderly?

That said, yeah, I view the Tamarisk as a pest. Glad to see something controlling its population. I for one would not be surprised if the bug eventually figures out how to survive on something else. Fruit trees seems an unlikely target for it, however.

Tom


It's only my opinion that "something has to be done", but they're here because of humans, don't you think it's our duty to get them under control? If we have the means?


I do like the hedge idea! Maybe privet. :nod: :haha:

[restrac2000]

For those wanting to really dork out:

http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/dspace/bitstream/10113/37250/1/IND44280697.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/5s8ks7n

Seems that only one "non-target" plant has thus far been identified, F. Salina, or the Alkali Heath. Haven't found anything relating to willows, cottonwoods, etc. It seems likely that the evolutionary adaptations of the beetle species, Diorhabda elongata, would lead to a higher probability of "attack" on plants related or similar to salt cedar, i.e. the aforementioned heath. Seems very unlikely that the beetles will target other plants until the next food source runs out.

Phillip

[oldno7]

Phillip
Please don't limit yourself to the Rich is a liar thread. Your knowledge and insite is welcomed.
Often we will see from differing perpectives, but I respect yours.

bogley is only a bad place if you're competing against it.

[ratagonia]

It's only my opinion that "something has to be done", but they're here because of humans, don't you think it's our duty to get them under control? If we have the means?

I do like the hedge idea! Maybe privet. :nod: :haha:

Duty to whom?

(I personally can see some duty, I am just wondering which duty YOU see, that makes it compelling).

T

[restrac2000]

It's only my opinion that "something has to be done", but they're here because of humans, don't you think it's our duty to get them under control? If we have the means?


I do like the hedge idea! Maybe privet. :nod: :haha:

Hehe....

My concern is that there is a lot we still don't know so the idea of ecological "restoration" has always seemed a bit lofty. Especially when involving the addition of an invasive biocontrol. I like the outcomes of this one so far but the long view is highly uncertain.

Can't believe I am going to use a Rumsfeld quote, highly unusual for me:

"“[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know."

Science-based application is better than no foundation but it can still push us far into the realms of the unknown. Outcomes are still a major gamble. But I agree that sometimes action is better than inaction.

Phillip

[trackrunner]

There is an easy solution to get rid of the beetles.

Release some lizards from Asia to kill the beetles.

But you may ask: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by
lizards?

No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes.
They'll wipe out the lizards.

But you may ask: But aren't the snakes even worse?

Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of
gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

But you may ask: But then we're stuck with gorillas!

No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the
gorillas simply freeze to death.

[ilipichicuma]

There is an easy solution to get rid of the beetles.

Release some lizards from Asia to kill the beetles.

But you may ask: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by
lizards?

No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes.
They'll wipe out the lizards.

But you may ask: But aren't the snakes even worse?

Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of
gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

But you may ask: But then we're stuck with gorillas!

No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the
gorillas simply freeze to death.

This plan is genius. I say we do that.:haha:

[ratagonia]

There is an easy solution to get rid of the beetles.

Release some lizards from Asia to kill the beetles.

But you may ask: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by
lizards?

No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes.
They'll wipe out the lizards.

But you may ask: But aren't the snakes even worse?

Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of
gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

But you may ask: But then we're stuck with gorillas!

No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the
gorillas simply freeze to death.

I thought the beetles were supposed to die out over the winter?

T

[restrac2000]

Phillip
Please don't limit yourself to the Rich is a liar thread. Your knowledge and insite is welcomed.
Often we will see from differing perpectives, but I respect yours.

bogley is only a bad place if you're competing against it.

Thanks for the warm welcome, oldno7

[Sandstone Addiction]

Duty to whom?

(I personally can see some duty, I am just wondering which duty YOU see, that makes it compelling).

T

My sense of duty is to the generations to come (but mostly me).

Our ancestors, naively planted it and it has been taking over more and more real estate ever since. I've put up with it all these years with no hope in sight until my little beetle friend came along (I'm giving one a virtual hug now:feelgood:) and suddenly there is a light at the end of the tunnel (I sincerely hope it's not a train).

I feel the same duty to controlling Phragmites, Quagga/Zebra Mussels, etc. Unfortunately, the beetle doesn't like either of them.

BTW Moses, you being experienced with plagues and all, you didn't have anything to do with these did you??? :haha::lol8:

[Iceaxe]

I just hope the beetles don't discover they like corn and wheat once they finish with all the tamarisk.

With that being said... I hate tamarisk... somewhere there is a collection of pictures taken by the Powell expedition set next to the same picture taken today.... the Colorado is not even close to the same river Powell once explored.

:cool2:

[ratagonia]

I just hope the beetles don't discover they like corn and wheat once they finish with all the tamarisk.

With that being said... I hate tamarisk... somewhere there is a collection of pictures taken by the Powell expedition set next to the same picture taken today.... the Colorado is not even close to the same river Powell once explored.

:cool2:

There's a couple hunks of concrete that have something to do with that... :crazy: Maybe we can find some beetles to chew on them??? :naughty::crazy:

:moses:

[Pelon1]

somewhere there is a collection of pictures taken by the Powell expedition set next to the same picture taken today.... the Colorado is not even close to the same river Powell once explored.

:cool2:

Bob Webb Book (http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Canyon-Century-Change-Rephotography/dp/0816515786) its pretty fascinating we just got a hard cover copy of it!!

[restrac2000]

Looks like a great book.

I think there is also one that has comparative photographs in Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons along the Green River. Not sure if it is his "Ribbons of Green" or another one I can't find.

Phillip

Edit: Looks like it would be in the "Cataract Canyon" book he coauthored.

[ratagonia]

My sense of duty is to the generations to come (but mostly me).

Our ancestors, naively planted it and it has been taking over more and more real estate ever since. I've put up with it all these years with no hope in sight until my little beetle friend came along (I'm giving one a virtual hug now:feelgood:) and suddenly there is a light at the end of the tunnel (I sincerely hope it's not a train).

I feel the same duty to controlling Phragmites, Quagga/Zebra Mussels, etc. Unfortunately, the beetle doesn't like either of them.

BTW Moses, you being experienced with plagues and all, you didn't have anything to do with these did you??? :haha::lol8:

A sense of duty I share with you: "Don't leave the place a mess".

Moses was a reluctant prophet. He was just a go-between. The plagues came from the Big Dude.

:moses:

[restrac2000]

There is this website for the San Juan:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr01-314/html/repeat.html

[Sandstone Addiction]

A sense of duty I share with you: "Don't leave the place a mess".

Moses was a reluctant prophet. He was just a go-between. The plagues came from the Big Dude.

:moses:


:nod: On both.

[BLUEberryBOB]

There is an easy solution to get rid of the beetles.

Release some lizards from Asia to kill the beetles.

But you may ask: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by
lizards?

No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes.
They'll wipe out the lizards.

But you may ask: But aren't the snakes even worse?

Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of
gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

But you may ask: But then we're stuck with gorillas!

No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the
gorillas simply freeze to death.

Are you running in 2012? :hail2thechief::lol8:

[kelleyp]

There is simply one thing missing from this ecosystem that is essential to its proper function. That thing? Floods.
There is simply one thing deterring the floods and screwing up this ecosystem from Wyoming to Mexico. That thing? Dams.
The beetle idea is only a band aid. Any other attempt at biocontrol will also be nothing more than a band aid. The biocontrols are only treating the symptoms and not going to cure anything. The cure is to unclog the arteries. Remove the dams and mother nature will handle the rest. Floyd Dominy is dead. Now lets kill his dams and let the rivers live. Peace, Kelley

[Sandstone Addiction]

There is simply one thing missing from this ecosystem that is essential to its proper function. That thing? Floods.
There is simply one thing deterring the floods and screwing up this ecosystem from Wyoming to Mexico. That thing? Dams.
The beetle idea is only a band aid. Any other attempt at biocontrol will also be nothing more than a band aid. The biocontrols are only treating the symptoms and not going to cure anything. The cure is to unclog the arteries. Remove the dams and mother nature will handle the rest. Floyd Dominy is dead. Now lets kill his dams and let the rivers live. Peace, Kelley

That's interesting, seeing how there are thousands of "wild" rivers/creeks/washes/draws/gulches throughout the west that are choked to death with tamarisks that are flooded on regular basis. How do you explain that?

The Floyd Dominy insult isn't even worthy of a response.

[canyoncaver]

Floyd Dominy was the insult. An insult to rivers, canyons, ecosystems, and the human race.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Floyd Dominy was the insult. An insult to rivers, canyons, ecosystems, and the human race.

Was he an insult to millions and millions of boaters, fishermen, wakeboarders/skiers, tourists from around the globe, canyoneers (who enjoy easy access to canyons like West), workers (my dad spent 4 years helping build the Glen Canyon Dam by the way)...oh yea, what about lovers of fresh salad in the winter? Almost forgot, what about the fountains in Vegas, drinking/irragation water in Phoenix...I could go on all day.

[Deathcricket]

There is an easy solution to get rid of the beetles.

Release some lizards from Asia to kill the beetles.

But you may ask: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by
lizards?

No problem. We simply release wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes.
They'll wipe out the lizards.

But you may ask: But aren't the snakes even worse?

Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of
gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

But you may ask: But then we're stuck with gorillas!

No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the
gorillas simply freeze to death.


OMG best post eva!!!

[ratagonia]

Was he an insult to millions and millions of boaters, fishermen, wakeboarders/skiers, tourists from around the globe, canyoneers (who enjoy easy access to canyons like West), workers (my dad spent 4 years helping build the Glen Canyon Dam by the way)...oh yea, what about lovers of fresh salad in the winter? Almost forgot, what about the fountains in Vegas, drinking/irragation water in Phoenix...I could go on all day.

Yes.

T

[Sandstone Addiction]

Yes.

T

Not sure if I understand what you mean...are saying that the millions of people I mentioned don't appreciate and admire what he's done for the west? Despite the fact that most have no idea who he was.

[ratagonia]

Not sure if I understand what you mean...are saying that the millions of people I mentioned don't appreciate and admire what he's done for the west? Despite the fact that most have no idea who he was.

That's a political viewpoint question, Sandstone. I do not appreciate and admire what he has done for the west - I loathe it, because I would much rather have it closer to its natural state. I would rather access the Glen Canyon slot canyons via a month-long raft trip. And though you will think otherwise, I am well-informed on the issues, and realize the West would be quite a bit different without the beaver-complex constructions Lord Dominey created from billions of tax-payer dollars.

But yes, you are right. There are at least several million people that like the result, without perhaps an appreciation of what it took to produce it, both good and bad, admirable and loatheable. Just don't count me among them, on either count.

May I assume your father was competent enough to find employment somewhere else, if the damn dam had not served that purpose?

Or should we move this over to the Political Forum. (rhetorical, not a suggestion).

Tom :moses:

[canyoncaver]

Was he an insult to millions and millions of boaters, fishermen, wakeboarders/skiers, tourists from around the globe, canyoneers (who enjoy easy access to canyons like West), workers (my dad spent 4 years helping build the Glen Canyon Dam by the way)...oh yea, what about lovers of fresh salad in the winter? Almost forgot, what about the fountains in Vegas, drinking/irragation water in Phoenix...I could go on all day.

To quote Jules from Pulp Fiction: "This my friend, is just where you and I differ." I see everything you mention above as a negative, except perhaps salad in the winter. On that point I'm sure I could still enjoy a salad without the constructions of the aforementioned egomaniacal power tripper. Even if I couldn't, I would rather go salad free and live in a Utah that is also free of Lake Foul.

Fountains in Vegas? Really? I couldn't have picked a better example of the wasteful, decadent use of water in the West that Floyd Dominy made possible. In the process of creating unsustainable nightmare cities like Vegas and Phoenix, he killed the heart of canyon country AND the Colorado River Delta.

[Sandstone Addiction]

And though you will think otherwise, I am well-informed on the issues,

I said "most people". I apologize if you thought I was including you. You clearly know what you are talking about and I appreciate your point of view.

Just curious, have you ever woke up at the crack of dawn, fired up the boat and carved up the wake at Lake Powell on the smoothest glass in the world? If not, maybe you should give it a try...you just might change your mind. :nod:

Nevermind, we've highjacked oldno7's thread long enough.

Dave

[Sandstone Addiction]

unsustainable nightmare cities like Vegas and Phoenix

Kinda selfish view, don't ya think? It's ok for you to live here, but to hell with everyone else??

Let's get together with Tom and we can all have some "Lake Powell Therapy"--it's amazing.

[ratagonia]

Just curious, have you ever woke up at the crack of dawn, fired up the boat and carved up the wake at Lake Powell on the smoothest glass in the world?



I have... thought I was flying for a while, got a bit of vertigo looking down into the sky.

T

[CarpeyBiggs]

I said "most people". I apologize if you thought I was including you. You clearly know what you are talking about and I appreciate your point of view.

Just curious, have you ever woke up at the crack of dawn, fired up the boat and carved up the wake at Lake Powell on the smoothest glass in the world? If not, maybe you should give it a try...you just might change your mind. :nod:
Dave

probably more often than you'd think... you ever explored any of the slots out there that weren't destroyed? just might change your mind. :nod:


still wish it wasn't a reservoir. but it's still enjoyable, even if it has destroyed one of the most amazing environments on earth. oh well, it's still worth enjoying the little bits by boat.

http://www.danransom.com/TripReports/?p=446

[oldno7]

I said "most people". I apologize if you thought I was including you. You clearly know what you are talking about and I appreciate your point of view.

Just curious, have you ever woke up at the crack of dawn, fired up the boat and carved up the wake at Lake Powell on the smoothest glass in the world? If not, maybe you should give it a try...you just might change your mind. :nod:

Nevermind, we've highjacked oldno7's thread long enough.

Dave

No problem with the hi jack. I spend a lot of time at Powell and am a huge fan.:2thumbs:

[canyoncaver]

Kinda selfish view, don't ya think? It's ok for you to live here, but to hell with everyone else??

Let's get together with Tom and we can all have some "Lake Powell Therapy"--it's amazing.

Ummm, I don't live in either one of those places.

I'd be up for some Lake Powell therapy. My wife and I did a five day kayak trip on Powell in 2004. So I know about the glassy water you speak of. It was on that trip I decided that I would rather see it drained. To each his own.

[xxnitsuaxx]

Sandstone Addiction - read this

http://www.amazon.com/Cadillac-Desert-American-Disappearing-Revised/dp/0140178244

and then make the same arguments you just did (seriously though, fountains in Las Vegas? That's like supporting tax cuts by claiming that they'll go to millionaires' yachts).

[Sandstone Addiction]

(seriously though, fountains in Las Vegas? .

My point was that millions of people enjoy the fruits of Floyd's labors. I'm not really into fountains, but you can't argue the fact that lots of people do...I love recreating at Lake Powell and an occasional green salad.

Book looks interesting, I just might take you up on it.

Now, back to the point-- would someone help me understand how natural flooding on the Lower Colorado would take care of the tamaracks...when it has been flooding everywhere else since their introduction and they don't seem to be going away???

[canyoncaver]

Sandstone,

I think you may have a point that the flooding (or lack of) issue and the invasive species issue are two different things. Flooding may affect the tamarisk population, but I think we are going to have to use things like bugs and fire to totally get rid of them.

I highly recommend Cadillac Desert to anyone that is remotely interested in the history of the development of the west. It certainly opened my eyes, and caused me to think differently about many water-related issues. It would probably be highly interesting to you because of your family history with the dam if nothing else.

[ratagonia]

Book looks interesting, I just might take you up on it.

Now, back to the point-- would someone help me understand how natural flooding on the Lower Colorado would take care of the tamaracks...when it has been flooding everywhere else since their introduction and they don't seem to be going away???

Cadillac Desert - amazing book, should be required reading for anyone living west of the Rockies.

Tamaracks? Tamaracks do not grow well down here.



Tamarack Larch, or Tamarack, or Hackmatack, or American Larch[2] (Larix laricina) is a species of larch native to Canada, from eastern Yukon and Inuvik, Northwest Territories east to Newfoundland, and also south into the northeastern United States from Minnesota to Cranesville Swamp, West Virginia; there is also a disjunct population in central Alaska. The name Tamarack is the Algonquian name for the species and means "wood used for snowshoes".

Tom

[restrac2000]

My point was that millions of people enjoy the fruits of Floyd's labors. I'm not really into fountains, but you can't argue the fact that lots of people do...I love recreating at Lake Powell and an occasional green salad.

Book looks interesting, I just might take you up on it.

Now, back to the point-- would someone help me understand how natural flooding on the Lower Colorado would take care of the tamaracks...when it has been flooding everywhere else since their introduction and they don't seem to be going away???

Flooding wouldn't be the primary means to eradicate the tamarisks. Biocontrol, fire and manual labor will do most of the work (a century or more?). But returning the Colorado and Green to a "natural" flow regime is the next step to "restoring"(I personally find the word flawed), in as much we can,
to some resemblance of what is was before the tames and dams. Floods help move the sandbanks, water the natives (like Cottonwoods who need floods for recruitment), deliver nutrients and disperse native seeds. Without a better flood the regime the system is screwed. Without floods then removing tamies really is just and atheistic decision (which can be important but fairly short-sighted). Without floods the natives will just replace the tames as a nuisance because their #s will swell to unnatural levels. Gross simplifications of course.

Phillip

[oldno7]

The Escalante river floods rather regular and in epic proportions. It has a serious Tamarisk problem. It's flows are not regulated by any dam.

[flatiron]

The PBS 4 part documentary was excellent, if you can get your hands on it. Also check out an article in OnEarth magazine Dec 21st 2010 about a study done to examine the books predictions 25 yrs ago.

[ratagonia]

The PBS 4 part documentary was excellent, if you can get your hands on it. Also check out an article in OnEarth magazine Dec 21st 2010 about a study done to examine the books predictions 25 yrs ago.

Uh, a little help, please. A four part documentary... based on Cadillac Desert?????

Tom

[EvergreenDean]

Sandstone Addiction - read this

http://www.amazon.com/Cadillac-Desert-American-Disappearing-Revised/dp/0140178244

and then make the same arguments you just did (seriously though, fountains in Las Vegas? That's like supporting tax cuts by claiming that they'll go to millionaires' yachts).

Yes, required reading for sure. And after that book infuriates you and calls you to action, you can read this one for some ideas about what you can do: http://www.amazon.com/Monkey-Wrench-Gang-P-S/dp/0061129763/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319202990&sr=8-1

[flatiron]

Yes, I never read the book but saw the doc. Just great. Never went to DVD, but still avail VHS. Boulder Co has an incredible place called Video Station that has it. Can also buy on Amazon. But PBS no longer even has it on their website. 1st part is all about LA Water chief Mulholland and LA's water grab. 2nd part is Colorado River and dams. 3rd about Calif Central Valley and fights over water and pollution, etc. There is some stuff on Youtube also. Catch a little Floyd Dominy on this one - just a tad arrogant.http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=desert%20cadillac&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CE8QtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dhkb ebOhnCjA&ei=GhKiTrmlAqf-iQK-3vRe&usg=AFQjCNFnFV8oBcK5FQ1HAIK8tu_jEZlMmQ&sig2=sa_gopqguipg5ZwlRF_8Xw

[kvklay]

Yes, required reading for sure. And after that book infuriates you and calls you to action, you can read this one for some ideas about what you can do: http://www.amazon.com/Monkey-Wrench-Gang-P-S/dp/0061129763/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319202990&sr=8-1

A recent gift from my good friend, this is a book I've been wanting to check out for years. An entertaining 2 day read full of weird characters turned eco-terrorists who destroy billboards, bulldozers, bridges, & mine trains in an effort to combat developers and preserve the Southwest.

http://reviewastore.co.uk/image/y/R.gif

[kelleyp]

Here are some other books on the water isssue.
"The Place No One Knew" by Eliot Porter out of print?

"A River No More" Philip Fradkin

"All My Rivers Are Gone" Katie Lee

And a book that is not specifically about the river but really gets to the heart of this whole discussion, "Eaarth: Making Life On A Tough New Planet" Bill McKibben No, its not a typo. We now live on a different planet of our own creation. Peace, Kelley

[canyoncaver]

Don't forget Down the River, by Edward Abbey.

It's a collection of stories that are either about river float trips, or environmental decisions where something was sold down the river, or both. A great read.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Don't forget Down the River, by Edward Abbey.


One Edward Abbey book was enough for me, way too extreme.

Besides, since I discovered Bogley, I don't have time to read books!! HA HA :lol8:

[french_de]

There is some stuff on Youtube also. Catch a little Floyd Dominy on this one - just a tad arrogant.http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=desert%20cadillac&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CE8QtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dhkb ebOhnCjA&ei=GhKiTrmlAqf-iQK-3vRe&usg=AFQjCNFnFV8oBcK5FQ1HAIK8tu_jEZlMmQ&sig2=sa_gopqguipg5ZwlRF_8Xw I read Cadillac Desert a few years ago and did not know there was a PBS 4 part. Thanks for the YouTube link. That was great watching. It was weird to see Floyd Dominy interviewed claiming he was the Mesiah, the Evangelist, the Crusader.

[oldno7]

WAIT,HOLD IT,STOP---Save the tamarisk

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20126404-54/can-a-desert-tree-fight-global-warming/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

[Sandstone Addiction]

WAIT,HOLD IT,STOP---Save the tamarisk



:facepalm1: I guess they are good for something...

[kelleyp]

I think the tamarisks are native to that part of the world. Loss of habitat, fragmentation of habitat, and invasive species. These are, in this order, our problem. Peace, Kelley