First rap in Englestead - 300 feet or more?

[ratagonia]

Shane and I have had a long-running minor dispute on the length of the first rap in Englestead, from the side-tree to the bottom bottom. I claimed it was more than 300 feet, he claimed it was less.

Went and did Englestead yesterday with a rope I had carefully measured at 304 feet. It made it all the way to the ground.:eek2: Actual rap length about 290 feet.

I was wrong. :cry1:

Shane was right. :facepalm1:

A good time had by all, otherwise.

Tom :moses:

[Deathcricket]

By "bottom bottom" you mean after the 2nd rap immediately following the first rap right? So you take the two possible raps and get them done in one shot?

[ratagonia]

By "bottom bottom" you mean after the 2nd rap immediately following the first rap right? So you take the two possible raps and get them done in one shot?

Yes. The first bottom is a large ledge that comes from the actual chute. The 2nd rap would be off a two bolt anchor on canyon right, about 40 feet. As one long rap, the rappeller lands on the large ledge, then bounces back 10 feet and over the next edge.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Yer knot wasn't big enough at the top. Gotta use a bunch more rope tying knots to make up the difference. You just did it too efficiently and your knots were surely waaaay to small. :lol8:

[Cirrus2000]

Isn't it amazing how some good solid evidence can change one's mind? Good mental flexibility, Tom. Don't let it go to your head, Shane... :haha:

[Scott Card]

Good mental flexibility, Tom. Don't let it go to your head, Shane... :haha:

Too late for both of them.....:lol8:

[hank moon]

don't you mean Shane IS right? :)

[ratagonia]

don't you mean Shane IS right? :)

I consider Shane being right to be a transitory phenomenon, thus I use the past tense. Besides, it could have changed by now.

T :moses:

[Sombeech]

:haha:

[reflection]

Englestead: Wrecked 8mm ropes and shockingly heavy 9mm ropes (if used in the 300 ft. range.) The drop from the tree anchor (not the lip) to the bottom is one figure. The amount of rope necessary if tying the pull line and then dropping that pull line knot (connected to the rap line knot) over the lip, is another. And then that paradox or twilight zone arc of shrinking ropes that lose 3-5-7% of length after many "slides" and particularly when used in water. A 300 ft. rope that one day was "accurate" and then a year later became (with a 5% loss of length for example) a swinging 285. I've seen it, with mine and others ropes. Just happened to be in that "Englishman's/woman's" zone last week too. Our group used a fairly new 310 ft 9mm Imlay line. 8 years back or last week - nothing much has changed - settle on a "real length" off nothing less than 300 ft. if setting up for that long rap, that one kid called "balls to the wall" as his pale face launched off.

[ratagonia]

Englestead: Wrecked 8mm ropes and shockingly heavy 9mm ropes (if used in the 300 ft. range.) The drop from the tree anchor (not the lip) to the bottom is one figure. The amount of rope necessary if tying the pull line and then dropping that pull line knot (connected to the rap line knot) over the lip, is another. And then that paradox or twilight zone arc of shrinking ropes that lose 3-5-7% of length after many "slides" and particularly when used in water. A 300 ft. rope that one day was "accurate" and then a year later became (with a 5% loss of length for example) a swinging 285. I've seen it, with mine and others ropes. Just happened to be in that "Englishman's/woman's" zone last week too. Our group used a fairly new 310 ft 9mm Imlay line. 8 years back or last week - nothing much has changed - settle on a "real length" off nothing less than 300 ft. if setting up for that long rap, that one kid called "balls to the wall" as his pale face launched off.

Always good to measure your ropes before using for "close calls". Engelstead your rope a little short puts the canyoneer on a large ledge with an anchor at hand. Heaps - another story entirely, one I have not yet had the honor of figuring out, but then again, I don't usually go first there. Pulled out a 300' rope one time for the 285' last rap in Heaps, decided to measure, came out at 270 feet. Might have been a bad day, :facepalm1: but thankfully, the rope WAS measured and WAS replaced with one of a more appropriate length. That rap in Waterholes Canyon near Page is also very close to spec.

Tom :moses:

[Iceaxe]

The drop from the tree anchor (not the lip) to the bottom is one figure. The amount of rope necessary if tying the pull line and then dropping that pull line knot (connected to the rap line knot) over the lip, is another. And then that paradox or twilight zone arc of shrinking ropes that lose 3-5-7% of length after many "slides" and particularly when used in water.

When writing beta I give the actual height of the drop if I know it and I give a recommended rope in the gear suggestions. I don't consider myself responsible for items like rope shrinkage, you are responsible for your own gear. I also don't consider myself responsible for how you rig the rappels so how much rope you actually use tying knots is not my concern..... I'm just telling you this so everyone has an idea of the point of view I write beta from.

FWIW: The first time I did Englestead (September 1, 2001) I measured the drop at 285'. I have noticed over the years and several additional trips through Englestead that the sand at the bottom of the initial drop keeps washing out and is not being replaced. So I would estimate Tom's 290' is currently a safe bet.

:stud: