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accadacca
09-07-2011, 12:54 PM
Thoughts? :popcorn:
--

Editor's note: Douglas Rushkoff is a media theorist and the author of "Program or Be Programmed: Ten Commands for a Digital Age" (http://www.orbooks.com/our-books/program/) and "Life Inc: How Corporatism Conquered the World and How We Can Take it Back." (http://www.randomhouse.com/book/158965/life-inc-by-douglas-rushkoff/9780812978506/)


(CNN) -- The U.S. Postal Service appears to be the latest casualty in digital technology's slow but steady replacement of working humans. Unless an external source of funding comes in, the post office will have to scale back its operations drastically, or simply shut down altogether. That's 600,000 people who would be out of work, and another 480,000 pensioners facing an adjustment in terms.

We can blame a right wing attempting to undermine labor, or a left wing trying to preserve unions in the face of government and corporate cutbacks. But the real culprit -- at least in this case -- is e-mail. People are sending 22% fewer pieces of mail than they did four years ago, opting for electronic bill payment and other net-enabled means of communication over envelopes and stamps.

New technologies are wreaking havoc on employment figures -- from EZpasses ousting toll collectors to Google-controlled self-driving automobiles rendering taxicab drivers obsolete. Every new computer program is basically doing some task that a person used to do. But the computer usually does it faster, more accurately, for less money, and without any health insurance costs.

We like to believe that the appropriate response is to train humans for higher level work. Instead of collecting tolls, the trained worker will fix and program toll-collecting robots. But it never really works out that way, since not as many people are needed to make the robots as the robots replace.

And so the president goes on television telling us that the big issue of our time is jobs, jobs, jobs -- as if the reason to build high-speed rails and fix bridges is to put people back to work. But it seems to me there's something backwards in that logic. I find myself wondering if we may be accepting a premise that deserves to be questioned.

I am afraid to even ask this, but since when is unemployment really a problem? I understand we all want paychecks -- or at least money. We want food, shelter, clothing, and all the things that money buys us. But do we all really want jobs?

We're living in an economy where productivity is no longer the goal, employment is. That's because, on a very fundamental level, we have pretty much everything we need. America is productive enough that it could probably shelter, feed, educate, and even provide health care for its entire population with just a fraction of us actually working.

According to the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization (http://www.fao.org/dg/1999/millen-e.htm), there is enough food produced to provide everyone in the world with 2,720 kilocalories per person per day. And that's even after America disposes of thousands of tons of crop and dairy just to keep market prices high. Meanwhile, American banks overloaded with foreclosed properties are demolishing vacant dwellings (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2009/05/05/nr.bank.demolishes.home.cnn?iref=allsearch) http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/3.0/global/icons/video_icon.gif (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2009/05/05/nr.bank.demolishes.home.cnn?iref=allsearch) to get the empty houses off their books.

Our problem is not that we don't have enough stuff -- it's that we don't have enough ways for people to work and prove that they deserve this stuff.

Jobs, as such, are a relatively new concept. People may have always worked, but until the advent of the corporation in the early Renaissance, most people just worked for themselves. They made shoes, plucked chickens, or created value in some way for other people, who then traded or paid for those goods and services. By the late Middle Ages, most of Europe was thriving under this arrangement.

The only ones losing wealth were the aristocracy, who depended on their titles to extract money from those who worked. And so they invented the chartered monopoly. By law, small businesses in most major industries were shut down and people had to work for officially sanctioned corporations instead. From then on, for most of us, working came to mean getting a "job."

The Industrial Age was largely about making those jobs as menial and unskilled as possible. Technologies such as the assembly line were less important for making production faster than for making it cheaper, and laborers more replaceable. Now that we're in the digital age, we're using technology the same way: to increase efficiency, lay off more people, and increase corporate profits.

While this is certainly bad for workers and unions, I have to wonder just how truly bad is it for people. Isn't this what all this technology was for in the first place? The question we have to begin to ask ourselves is not how do we employ all the people who are rendered obsolete by technology, but how can we organize a society around something other than employment? Might the spirit of enterprise we currently associate with "career" be shifted to something entirely more collaborative, purposeful, and even meaningful?

Instead, we are attempting to use the logic of a scarce marketplace to negotiate things that are actually in abundance. What we lack is not employment, but a way of fairly distributing the bounty we have generated through our technologies, and a way of creating meaning in a world that has already produced far too much stuff.

The communist answer to this question was just to distribute everything evenly. But that sapped motivation and never quite worked as advertised. The opposite, libertarian answer (and the way we seem to be going right now) would be to let those who can't capitalize on the bounty simply suffer. Cut social services along with their jobs, and hope they fade into the distance.

But there might still be another possibility -- something we couldn't really imagine for ourselves until the digital era. As a pioneer of virtual reality, Jaron Lanier, recently pointed out (http://edge.org/conversation/the-local-global-flip), we no longer need to make stuff in order to make money. We can instead exchange information-based products.

We start by accepting that food and shelter are basic human rights. The work we do -- the value we create -- is for the rest of what we want: the stuff that makes life fun, meaningful, and purposeful.

This sort of work isn't so much employment as it is creative activity. Unlike Industrial Age employment, digital production can be done from the home, independently, and even in a peer-to-peer fashion without going through big corporations. We can make games for each other, write books, solve problems, educate and inspire one another -- all through bits instead of stuff. And we can pay one another using the same money we use to buy real stuff.

For the time being, as we contend with what appears to be a global economic slowdown by destroying food and demolishing homes, we might want to stop thinking about jobs as the main aspect of our lives that we want to save. They may be a means, but they are not the ends.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Douglas Rushkoff.

Article: http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/09/07/rushkoff.jobs.obsolete/index.html

Deathcricket
09-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Meh... While a nice concept intellectually, this is a fundamentally flawed thinking process. A host can only support so many parasites before it collapses and dies. Can you imagine giving 2/3's of the population free housing, food, clothing, and health care? They would just sit around, watch Jerry Springer and screw all day. Then the 1/3 "motivated" portion has to work their asses off and pay for the freeloaders? Yeah.... I'll pass... Doesn't sound very utopian to me.
:ne_nau:

DOSS
09-07-2011, 03:42 PM
Once upon a time there was this guy named Karl.... he was wrong too

rockgremlin
09-08-2011, 11:33 AM
Once upon a time there was this guy named Karl.... he was wrong too


LMAO! :roflol:

reverse_dyno
09-09-2011, 08:12 AM
Deathcricket,


If it is the case that we have more people than are required to produce the goods and services that society needs, those unemployed people are not needed. They cannot get a job because businesses simply do not need more workers, because society does not need more goods. Unless you kill the unemployed or let them starve, they will require some support to survive because they will never be able to get a job. The author argues that rather than leaving them on unemployment insurance or just giving them welfare, we as a society should decide to give everyone a base salary that they can live on, regardless of employment status. We already do that through numerous safety nets including unemployment insurance, social security, food stamps and welfare. All of those could be eliminated if everyone had a base salary. People who wish for more money would then work. Since most people like to buy things, they would have an incentive to work.


There are other benefits as well. One problem with starting a business is that it is a risk. It is hard to take risks in America because the safety nets that catch you if your business fails are so poor. If everyone got a base salary then people could take more employment risks, like quitting their job to start a new business, or changing jobs, because they would not end up on the street if something went wrong. Currently workers are often stuck in bad jobs because if they quit or are fired they will lose everything. That gives employers immense power. A base salary would take that power from the employer since the worker doesn

oldno7
09-09-2011, 08:24 AM
Mark
I'm not DC, but...

If everyone in the country was to receive a base salary, how would that salary be funded?

live2ride
09-09-2011, 10:01 AM
I think it should be funded by prostitution.....

Deathcricket
09-09-2011, 12:50 PM
Deathcricket,


If it is the case that we have more people than are required to produce the goods and services that society needs, those unemployed people are not needed. They cannot get a job because businesses simply do not need more workers, because society does not need more goods. Unless you kill the unemployed or let them starve, they will require some support to survive because they will never be able to get a job. The author argues that rather than leaving them on unemployment insurance or just giving them welfare, we as a society should decide to give everyone a base salary that they can live on, regardless of employment status. We already do that through numerous safety nets including unemployment insurance, social security, food stamps and welfare. All of those could be eliminated if everyone had a base salary. People who wish for more money would then work. Since most people like to buy things, they would have an incentive to work.


There are other benefits as well. One problem with starting a business is that it is a risk. It is hard to take risks in America because the safety nets that catch you if your business fails are so poor. If everyone got a base salary then people could take more employment risks, like quitting their job to start a new business, or changing jobs, because they would not end up on the street if something went wrong. Currently workers are often stuck in bad jobs because if they quit or are fired they will lose everything. That gives employers immense power. A base salary would take that power from the employer since the worker doesn’t actually need the job to survive.


Mark

Hey RD!

I said it was a nice concept intellectually, yes. But Oldno has hit the heart of the matter. You have people working their asses off to pay a "base salary" to people doing absolutely nothing. In my mind this is stealing. You are taking somone's hard earned salary and forcefully giving it to a slothful loser. My single largest expense is my mortgage and you are saying that should be just paid for by others? Come on dude, that would never work, and the collapse of society would be imminent. We already have welfare states and people dependent upon government services and you want to increase it to everyone across the board? Then have the working people shoulder the burden?

The fear of becoming a loser in life is what motivates me to get out of bed in the morning. But you're suggesting I can stay in bed all day, bang my wife, smoke a phat joint, and then hit the Mtn bike trails? Dude I would quit becoming a productive member of society in a second. Screw going through voip logs, data scripts, and VPN connection issues all day...... I'm calling in sick permanently.

Edit: Also wanted to add. there should be a huge risk starting up a business and huge penalty points for failure. But there is also huge rewards for being a success. Can't have one without the other IMO.

Sombeech
09-09-2011, 01:26 PM
Douglas Rushkoff


Sounds like quite the capitalist name to begin with





(CNN) -- The U.S. Postal Service appears to be the latest casualty in digital technology's slow but steady replacement of working humans. Unless an external source of funding comes in, the post office will have to scale back its operations drastically, or simply shut down altogether. That's 600,000 people who would be out of work, and another 480,000 pensioners facing an adjustment in terms.

We can blame a right wing attempting to undermine labor, or a left wing trying to preserve unions in the face of government and corporate cutbacks. But the real culprit -- at least in this case -- is e-mail. People are sending 22% fewer pieces of mail than they did four years ago, opting for electronic bill payment and other net-enabled means of communication over envelopes and stamps.

New technologies are wreaking havoc on employment figures

All Commie crap aside, let's look at this opening analogy....

Email is thought to be a job killer, especially in this case. Let's take a local Post Office and count the employees. Let's assume 2 at the counter, 1 or 2 working the back room (in many cases these are the same people), a handful of delivery "mailmen" employees. I may be way off, but let's assume that 15 people work at the Post Office servicing Area X.

Now in that same Area X block, how many businesses are there? Corporations, restaurants, warehouses.... And how many of them have an Email Administrator?

In many cases the number of Email Administrators exceed the number of Postal Service employees servicing that same area. And then you've got the companies who have the non-dedicated positions, maybe the guy that manages the email is also an Inventory Manager.... You can say that isn't a full time job then - BUT if that employee didn't have email to manage, maybe he would be helping with sales too, thus needing 1 less salesman in the office. It all trickles down. (And that's just for business analogies! Think about the home computer repair jobs for personal computers)

My point is that Email has increased the workforce in the majority of cases.

reverse_dyno
09-12-2011, 09:51 AM
Sombeech to your point,
Generally when things are cheaper than other things, there is a reason. Because email is cheaper on a per-unit cost than mailing a letter, there is a reason. If email employs more people than the post office in a given area, why is email cheaper than mail? Why is gmail free?


The post office requires cars to deliver mail and cars are made by automobile workers. Cars are repaired by mechanics. Cars require gas and other oil products; those are produced by oil companies. If the post office closes, postal employs are only one group that will lose their jobs. It costs more to deliver a letter than to deliver an email because it requires more resources and personnel to do so. More personnel means more jobs. More often than not, increases in efficiency/productivity mean a loss in jobs. One email administrator can service tens of thousands of email users. One post officer can only deliver mail to a few hundred homes a day. Obviously email employs less people than the post office.


Email is becoming a replacement for mail. We used to need both, but now we can get away with using email for almost everything. If we close the post office, what will all those people do? They will not become email administrators because we already use email for a lot of things, i.e. the new demand for email will be minimal. In other words, we will only lose jobs, post office jobs (oil jobs, mechanics, car manufacturing, etc.) and few will be gained. Goggle may hire a few more administrators, but not hundreds of thousands of them, which is the number of people the post office employs.


Deathcricket to your point,
We already pay for social security, food stamps, welfare, homeless shelters, tax rebates for the working poor, unemployment insurance, etc. Many states have a minimum wage. I am not saying that you would give people a good lifestyle if they choose not to work. Most people believe it is immoral to let people starve and some say that you should provide people with housing, whether they work or not. I think many religions believe something to that affect. The argument is to combine all the safety net systems we have, and make it simpler for people to use them. Having a base salary would do that. We already pay for all these things.


Remember poverty and crime is correlated. Reduce poverty and you reduce crime, which means a savings on jail cells. A jail inmate costs something like 40,000 a year. When you have a large population of poor youth, bad things can happen. You just have to look at the recent London riots. Those with money pay one way or another for those without. Either through jail cells, welfare systems, high production costs because of a minimum wage, etc.

Sombeech
09-12-2011, 09:56 AM
The USB thumb drive might have killed the iomega Zip drive, but was that a bad thing because those iomega employees ended up with different jobs?

Why the HELL isn't the US Post office coming up with a competitive email service? The lack of innovation is to their demise.

uintahiker
09-12-2011, 11:09 AM
Sombeech to your point,
Generally when things are cheaper than other things, there is a reason. Because email is cheaper on a per-unit cost than mailing a letter, there is a reason. If email employs more people than the post office in a given area, why is email cheaper than mail? Why is gmail free?

Email may be free and cost less than mailing a letter, BUT there's a huge startup, as well as ongoing costs, ie computer, internet, etc. On top of that, many businesses don't use gmail, yahoo, hotmail etc as their email providers. Microsoft Outlook is a huge email program that many businesses use.



This basically sounds like the same arguement used back when the industrial revolution kicked off. Innovation = unemployment.

Greater efficiency does not equal greater unemployment! On the face value in some areas it does, but other jobs are always created, kicking off the need people with other skills. Furthermore, greater efficiency always leads to an increase in overall lifestyle for everyone. Think about it. Poor people today are better off than royalty was back in pre-1800's. They have cell phones, microwaves, easy access to books, TV's, transportation, etc etc.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk

reverse_dyno
09-13-2011, 11:25 AM
Your right uintahiker that whenever there is innovation and gains in efficiency, people say that there will be a loss in total jobs and to date that has not been the case. We have seen entire industries disappear because of efficiency gains, but total jobs have gone up. History is not always a good predictor of the future. Just because innovation has always, to date, created new jobs, does not mean it will continue to do so. Just because the Sun has risen every day of my life so far, doesn

PunchKing
09-13-2011, 11:44 AM
Not everyone is smart enough to be a manager, robot mechanic or engineer.

I disagree, not everyone is motivated enough to become those things. There are so many laborers because we need them and they find jobs. Why would I go to college when I can get a job that currently will pay me the same or more than someone with a degree? If that job market goes away they will find motivation to learn and do new things or they will be poor and enjoy what that brings with it.

DOSS
09-13-2011, 11:53 AM
Just because the Sun has risen every day of my life so far, doesn’t logically mean it will rise tomorrow. My belief that the Sun will rise tomorrow is an assumption, not a fact.

Not sure I can debate with someone who just implied that it is not logical to expect the sun to rise tomorrow. :facepalm1:

Deathcricket
09-13-2011, 03:07 PM
Not sure I can debate with someone who just implied that it is not logical to expect the sun to rise tomorrow. :facepalm1:
Hilarious! I had started typing my reply while I was reading the lower portion. I came across that exact sentence (you quoted) and said.... Out loud even..... "whoa, never mind, screw this guy, logic is not going to work here".
:haha:

Instead I will post a video response.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgHITc1OL-c

DOSS
09-13-2011, 04:14 PM
I just had to double check the date of the post in question... I had a suspicion that it may have been posted on the 20th of May (http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/outreach/tracts/may21/) but alas it was not so no 'logical' conclusion can be drawn from that.. but may this October it will be more accurate :)

reverse_dyno
09-15-2011, 11:09 AM
DOSS and Deathcricket,


Not sure I can debate with someone who just implied that it is not logical to expect the sun to rise tomorrow. :facepalm1:

Here is the statement to be show false:
History always repeats itself. Because innovation has always provided new jobs, it always will.

The counter argument:
History doesn't always repeat itself. I have lived everyday since I was born, but at some point I will no longer be alive. Just because I was alive yesterday, doesn't logically mean that I can conclude I will be alive tomorrow. If I could conclude that because I was alive yesterday I will be alive tomorrow, I would be immortal because I would never die. The sun is mortal like us, therefore it will die, or not rise at some point in the future. Like our own death, that date is not known. It may now be the case that innovation will no longer provide new jobs at a higher rate than it destroys them.

http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.php (http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.phphttp://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.php)

DOSS
09-15-2011, 11:27 AM
DOSS and Deathcricket,



Here is the statement to be show false:
History always repeats itself. Because innovation has always provided new jobs, it always will.

The counter argument:
History doesn't always repeat itself. I have lived everyday since I was born, but at some point I will no longer be alive. Just because I was alive yesterday, doesn't logically mean that I can conclude I will be alive tomorrow. If I could conclude that because I was alive yesterday I will be alive tomorrow, I would be immortal because I would never die. The sun is mortal like us, therefore it will die, or not rise at some point in the future. Like our own death, that date is not known. It may now be the case that innovation will no longer provide new jobs at a higher rate than it destroys them.

http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.php (http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.phphttp://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.php)

"here is the statement to be show false" - do you see the grammatical issues here?


Fail.. the word Tomorrow happens to mean the Day after today.. even your "proof" shows that the sun will in fact rise tomorrow..

I will repeat myself now in case you missed it the first time

Not sure I can debate with someone who just implied that it is not logical to expect the sun to rise tomorrow :facepalm1:

Sombeech
09-15-2011, 11:47 AM
We know the Sun will die someday. The question is, can it be blamed on the policies of the Bush Administration.

PunchKing
09-16-2011, 11:55 AM
DOSS and Deathcricket,



Here is the statement to be show false:
History always repeats itself. Because innovation has always provided new jobs, it always will.

The counter argument:
History doesn't always repeat itself. I have lived everyday since I was born, but at some point I will no longer be alive. Just because I was alive yesterday, doesn't logically mean that I can conclude I will be alive tomorrow. If I could conclude that because I was alive yesterday I will be alive tomorrow, I would be immortal because I would never die. The sun is mortal like us, therefore it will die, or not rise at some point in the future. Like our own death, that date is not known. It may now be the case that innovation will no longer provide new jobs at a higher rate than it destroys them.

http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.php (http://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.phphttp://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/locations/ttt_cradlegrave.php)

If you want I can put together some statistics but... the fact that you are alive now, chances are very good that you will be alive tomorrow. True it is not 100%, but it is remarkably close. Your hypothosis that "innovation will no longer provide new jobs at a higher rate than it destroys them" may someday be the case but chances are pretty good that if it worked in the past it will work in the future.