SPOT Satellite Messenger

[SRG]

So I recently bought a SPOT Satellite Messenger to give my family/friends peace of mind while I am off on adventures.

Does anyone have experience using this little device? Will it get a GPS fix and/or send out a message in the bottom of a canyon? How about in some tight narrows where only 1 or 2 degrees of sky is visible?
Thanks
-Sam

[CarpeyBiggs]

no.

[rockgremlin]

^^^X2

[Jaxx]

It doesn't work real well inside tight canyons. It doesn't work in the narrows, to give you an idea.

I have a new rule that you don't go off of spot messages. If you get one, good. If not, don't worry we are in a canyon or I forgot to send one.

There are lights on the front that tell you if it can see satellites. Then another light that blinks if the message is sent. I have the old model and I think the lights are a little different from the new model. Read the manual.

[SRG]

Okay good to know. Thanks people

[UtahAdventureGuide]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35609-NPS-Injured-Man-Extricated-From-Behunin-Canyon

Late on the afternoon of May 31st, rangers received several reports from hikers on the Emerald Pools trail saying that people were yelling for help from a canyon above them. At about the same time, the International Emergency Response Center notified the park that they’d received a ‘rescue alert’ from a SPOT satellite personal tracker from deep in a slot canyon. This signal confirmed that the accident was in Behunin Canyon, rather than Heaps Canyon.

[Scott P]

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...Behunin-Canyon (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35609-NPS-Injured-Man-Extricated-From-Behunin-Canyon)

Late on the afternoon of May 31st, rangers received several reports from hikers on the Emerald Pools trail saying that people were yelling for help from a canyon above them. At about the same time, the International Emergency Response Center notified the park that they’d received a ‘rescue alert’ from a SPOT satellite personal tracker from deep in a slot canyon. This signal confirmed that the accident was in Behunin Canyon, rather than Heaps Canyon. (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35609-NPS-Injured-Man-Extricated-From-Behunin-Canyon)


I don't have a Spot, but it is worth noting that Behunin is not a slot canyon as indicated in the story above. Plus, if they were at the last two raps as the story indicates, they were actually where the canyons opens up into the wall above the Emerald Pools rather than in the confines of the canyon.

[spinesnaper]

I am going to guess my fancy 5.3 oz McMurdo Fastfind isn't going to get signal at the bottom of some narrow slot either.
:nono:

[John Peterson]

I am going to guess my fancy 5.3 oz McMurdo Fastfind isn't going to get signal at the bottom of some narrow slot either.
:nono:

True, but it doesn't need to, unlike SPOT. Your Fastfind and my new ACR ResQLink both transmit to COSPAS/SARSAT on 406MHz at 5-watts or greater, which will most likely penetrate from deep within a slot canyon. Your GPS is not likely to ring in, but again, that's not required. As long as one of the LEOSATs picks up your 406MHz signal, it will know your general location. If SAR matches that up with a permit or someone who knows your plan, you're probably on your way to being rescued. The 400mW SPOT, on a 1.6GHz freq, is unlikely to help you in that case though.

[moab mark]

I am going to guess my fancy 5.3 oz McMurdo Fastfind isn't going to get signal at the bottom of some narrow slot either.
:nono:

What is this nifty toy?

[spinesnaper]

What is this nifty toy?

http://www.mcmurdo.co.uk/images/stories/fastfind_230_201_a.jpg

http://www.acrelectronics.com/media/7741/ResQ-Link.png?maxwidth=228&maxheight=221

Both the McMurdo fast find and ACR ResQ-link are very small personal locator 406MHz beacons with GPS that when activated communicates with NOAA satellites transmitting the unit ID and GPS coordinates. This system is also used at sea and the system has helped with the rescue of over 22,000 people since it was implemented in 1985. A properly registered beacon has your local hiking information and emergency contact information registered on a NOAA website. A phone call is placed to your emergency contact to confirm you are actually hiking before local authorities are contacted. The units also transmit continuously on 121.5 MHz which acts like a homing beacon for on scene rescuers. The units are very light. The McMurdo model weights 5.3 oz and the ACR unit 4.6 oz. There are slight differences in the models. Costs on the street are about $275 for the ACR unit and about $225 for the McMurdo unit. Both units are about the size of a very small cell phone. There are no subscription fees. Never had to use mine but it is solid peace of mind. Good to know the signal will make its way out of the canyon.

Ken

[Bo_Beck]

Worked fine for some folks the day before yesterday "Not in Mystery"!

[Big_E!]

I have a Spot II and Rule #2 is leave the bread crumbs on. Last known location and direction of travel will be known at the last satellite transmission. Rule #1 is make sure someone at home knows the plan and that you have a timeline for checking in.

[Mitch R.]

In my 3-year experience, the Spot 1 does not work in narrow slot canyons nor in thick woods. But, then, that is asking a lot. However, I did a test on a R2R2R in the Grand Canyon. To my surprise, of maybe 12-15 signals, only one of those signals, sent from the Indian Gardens area, somehow appeared to have been sent somewhere NE of Phantom Ranch.

[ratagonia]

I have a Spot II and Rule #2 is leave the bread crumbs on. Last known location and direction of travel will be known at the last satellite transmission. Rule #1 is make sure someone at home knows the plan and that you have a timeline for checking in.

Ahem... Rule #1 is don't frak up bad enough that you cannot get yourself out under your own power (or the power of your group). The other "rules" only apply when you break Rule #1.

Tom

[ratagonia]

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/fastfind.html

[spinesnaper]

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/fastfind.html

Doug Ritter's site has a lot of info on personal locator beacons including testing data: http://www.equipped.org/

It would be interesting to see formal testing of these devices in the actual canyon environments. Doug Ritter has information on how to go about this should someone be so motivated. Obviously, you don't just go out to a canyon and set off your PLB for testing purposes unless you have made prior arrangements with NOAA. It is interesting that one may not need a clear line to the sky to signal a rescue. I have always assumed this was necessary.

Ken

[mdd]

It would be interesting to see formal testing of these devices in the actual canyon environments.


Actually, somebody did test them in slot canyons, in Zion National Park no less. The paper was presented a few years back at the International Tech Rescue Symposium. I read the paper a year or two ago and it was interesting. I don't recall that he tested a SPOT, but he did test 406mhz PLB's inside various slot canyons in ZNP, and as I recall his results mirror what John Peterson says above in the thread - in most cases a distress signal was successfully transmitted, though location was not.

I don't know if I still have a copy but I'll look for it. I just took a quick look at the ITRS website (www.itrsonline.com (http://www.itrsonline.com)) and it looks like it was presented in 2008: "PLB Efficacy in the Slot Canyons of Zion National Park". They usually have copies of the presented papers in their archives but naturally for this one they just say "coming soon." Maybe if enough people ask ITRS for a copy they will get it online for us.

M

[spinesnaper]

Old but interesting. Accessed from: http://www.magazine.noaa.gov/stories/mag96.htm


PERSONAL LOCATOR BEACONS—HELP FROM ABOVE
June 19, 2003 — When Aron Ralston set out for a day’s worth of hiking and climbing near Canyonlands National Park in southeastern Utah, he never realized that Saturday, April 26, 2003, would be the day that forever changed his life. A day that would challenge his desire to live and eventually put him on the front of newspapers and television news programs around the world. (Click NOAA image for larger view of Cospas-Sarsat system overview.)

Earlier that day Ralston, 27, of Aspen, Colo., had set off for Blue John Canyon — a remote corner of the state far from the reach of people and even cell phones, for that matter. After spending some time climbing through the canyon, he made a quick maneuver around a narrow slot. There, he put his right hand on the side of a boulder, that suddenly shifted, pinning his hand. Ralston was trapped. After several unsuccessful attempts to move the boulder and squeeze his hand free, he tried some of the ropes, anchors and other equipment in his pack. Tragically, the boulder just would not budge.

For the next five days, Ralston continued to struggle — still no one came. By Tuesday, he had used up his water and food rations. His situation was becoming more desperate. He needed to take drastic measures. And that’s just what he did.

Using his pocketknife, Ralston proceeded to free himself in the only way he could — by severing his crushed arm. Amazingly, once free, he then rappelled down 60-75 feet to the canyon floor and walked 4 to 5 miles before he ran into a couple of tourists from Holland, who helped him wave down a rescue helicopter that was searching above.

While Aron Ralston’s story is certainly one that demonstrates the courage of the human spirit, it is nevertheless an unfortunate one that may have been avoided altogether with a little help from NOAA.

Personal Locator Beacons
In October 2002, the Federal Communications Commission granted a request by NOAA to permit the nationwide use of Personal Locator Beacons, commonly known as PLBs, beginning this July 1, 2003. What this landmark decision means is that hikers and other outdoor adventurers, like Aron Ralston, will be able to take advantage of the same lifesaving technology that mariners and aviators have been able to enjoy for years — satellite-aided search and rescue. (Click NOAA photo for larger view of Personal Emergency Beacon in closed position. Click here for high resolution version of this photo, which is a large file. Please credit "NOAA.")

Unlike cell-phones, which have limited range and spotty coverage in remote areas, PLBs have the capability of being detected anywhere in the world by the global lifesaving satellites known as Cospas-Sarsat. Cospas-Sarsat is a search and rescue (also known as "SAR") system that uses United States and Russian satellites to detect and locate emergency beacons that may be indicating distress. In the United States, the program is operated and funded by NOAA, the U.S. Coast Guard, the U.S. Air Force, and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. It operates 24 hours a day, 365 days a year and aims to reduce the time required to alert rescue authorities whenever a distress situation occurs. (Click NOAA photo for larger view of Personal Emergency Beacon in opened position. Click here for high resolution version of this photo, which is a large file. Please credit "NOAA.")

Here’s how it works: NOAA operates a series of environmental (POES) and geostationary operational environmental (GOES) satellites that detect and locate aviators, mariners and land-based users in distress. These satellites, along with a network of ground stations and the U.S. Mission Control Center in Suitland, Md., are part of the Cospas-Sarsat system, whose mission is to relay distress signals to the international SAR community. (Click NOAA image for larger view of PLBs from various manufacturers.)

When a person is in distress, their beacon can be activated which transmits a digital 406-megahertz signal to the constellation of NOAA and Russian satellites. The signal — with its digitally encoded unique identifier — is then relayed to a ground station, known as a Local User Terminal (or "LUT"), which processes the signal and computes an accurate location for the beacon using Doppler technology. That is, positional information calculated based on the relative motion between the satellite and the PLB. In the United States, NOAA operates 14 LUTs in seven locations across the U.S., including Guam and Puerto Rico. There are currently 42 LUTs in operation worldwide with several more being built each year. This year and next, NOAA is in the process of upgrading its LUTs throughout the country.

Once the ground station has calculated a position, it transmits the alert to the NOAA U.S. Mission Control Center in Suitland, Md. The USMCC combines this information with other satellite receptions (from other ground stations and MCCs), determines who is in distress based on the registration information decoded from the digital 406 MHz signal and then generates an alert message. This alert is then transmitted to the appropriate Rescue Coordination Center based on the beacon's geographic location and/or identification.

After the Rescue Coordination Center is alerted, it begins the actual search and rescue operation. In the United States, these rescue centers are operated by the U.S. Coast Guard for incidents at sea, and by the U.S. Air Force Rescue Coordination Center at Langley AFB (located in Virginia) for incidents on land — including all PLB alerts. In the case of a properly registered PLB, which is required by law to be registered with NOAA’s SARSAT Office, the RCC telephones the beacon's owner and/or emergency contact. If the RCC cannot determine that the signal is a false alert, it dispatches SAR teams to locate the aircraft, vessel and/or individual in distress. These SAR forces use planes, helicopters, and search parties to find the person(s) in distress and bring them to safety.

Generally, a beacon activation can be detected by GOES and an alert generated and sent to the RCC in a matter of minutes. In the time that the RCC is telephoning the beacon owner or emergency point of contact and preparing the SAR teams, a position can be calculated and processed from a POES in under 45 minutes, depending on one’s location on Earth. That means that for Aron Ralston, a SAR team could have been on the scene and helping to free him from the 800-pound boulder in, perhaps, just over an hour. Not only would Ralston have received proper medical attention, but he never would have had to face the gruesome decision he so unfortunately had to make.

PLB Versus Cell Phone
Cell-phones have truly revolutionized the means in which people communicate. That includes the means by which people are able to call for help via the national '911' system. Routinely our news is filled with stories of how people were able to hail for help via their trusty cell phone.

Despite the success of cell-phones there are limitations, not the least of which is coverage. For outdoor enthusiasts, this has often presented a problem should they ever find themselves in harm’s way in wilderness areas. PLBs, on the other hand, are able to be detected from anywhere in the world — thanks to the global coverage of the Cospas-Sarsat satellites.

PLBs also have the advantage of being able to produce a location, which most cell-phones cannot do. For a standard 406 MHz PLB the location accuracy is around two to three miles. Generally, this equates to a search time of around an hour for a search team on scene — depending on the terrain. Some beacons, however, take advantage of GPS technology and are able to generate a position with even greater accuracy. Those PLBs which have GPS receivers, attached either internally or externally, are able to produce a position smaller than a football field. For SAR teams, that means they can go directly to your location without having to conduct much of a search. With time always the critical element in a distress case, this can sometimes mean the difference between life and death.

The cost for PLBs will be, on average, slightly more than a top-of-the-line cell-phone. Most PLB manufacturers will be selling these beacons at or near the $500 range. Those with GPS capabilities will cost slightly more.

Despite the many advantages to PLBs, these beacons should only be looked upon as a means to compliment cell-phones. Indeed, most SAR authorities actually prefer users try their cell-phones first in a distress situation and call "911." The reason given: because anytime an individual is able to speak directly to a 911-operator the better. A 911-operator is able to assess the situation almost immediately. They can determine the extent of the distress, if any injuries have occurred, how many people are in the party, what the terrain and weather conditions are like, etc. All of this can then be used by the operator to dispatch the appropriate emergency response. In the case of a PLB, SAR forces are only able to be alerted to a potential distress — often without direct communication back to the individual. Usually, the RCC reach an emergency point of contact only — and that’s if the PLB is properly registered.

PLB Registration and False Alerts
Registration is one of the most important facets to PLBs. In the United States, all beacons (including PLBs) are required to be registered with NOAA’s SARSAT Office. In the case of a registered PLB, the RCC is able to call the beacon’s owner and/or emergency contact, to determine if a real SAR event is unfolding or if the beacon has been falsely activated. If the RCC cannot determine that the signal is false via the information provided by the emergency contacts, it must assume the beacon activation is legitimate and dispatches a SAR team accordingly.

Nevertheless, SAR teams do come upon falsely activated beacons. The manpower and cost of responding to false alerts are extremely high and are a significant burden to SAR resources nationwide. To avoid false alerts, NOAA encourages that all beacon owners learn to properly operate and test their beacon and to follow the manufacturer's recommendations carefully. Because all PLBs require a manual activation, it takes some effort to accidentally activate a PLB. Still, accidents and activations do occur. Should a user mistakenly activate their PLB, the user has about 50-seconds to turn off the beacon before the distress signal goes out. If that 50-second window has passed, promptly shut-off the beacon and contact the state search and rescue authority — which is usually the State Police or an officially designated agency. Or you may contact the U.S. Air Force Rescue Coordination Center (toll-free) at: 1-800-851-3051.

Alaska PLB Pilot Program
While PLBs will be new to most of the nation this July 1, 2003 the beacons have quietly been saving lives in Alaska for several years now. Since 1994, NOAA and the U.S. Air Force’s Alaska Rescue Coordination Center have been conducting a highly successful pilot program that permitted the use of 406 MHz PLBs to be carried by outdoor users across the state. Since that time, over 200 lives have been saved via the PLBs with a dramatically low number of false activations. From broken down snowmobilers to lost hunters, PLBs have been an important tool for the citizens of Alaska. And this tool has been equally important to the SAR teams throughout the state who would otherwise have to search great expanses of wilderness to search for someone.

Its anticipated that these same advantages will ultimately hold true for outdoor enthusiasts and wilderness adventurers throughout the contiguous 48 states. Certainly, NOAA and its Cospas-Sarsat partner agencies are excited to introduce the PLB technology to the general public on July 1, 2003.

National PLB News Conference
To highlight this momentous date, James R. Mahoney, assistant secretary of commerce for oceans and atmosphere and deputy NOAA administrator, hosted a national news conference on the Ellipse in front of the White House on June 9, 2003. Mahoney presented to two Boy Scout Troops from Vermont with the first publicly-available operational PLBs donated by McMurdo-PainsWessex, Northern Airborne Technologies and ACR Electronics. The news conference was held in conjunction with top officials from the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Coast Guard and NASA.

The scouts will be the first Americans to use PLBs during a July 1 demonstration in Waterbury, Vt. in which the scouts will essentially “get lost.” On that day, when PLBs also become available commercially across the United States, Vermont will be the first state in the nation to have an active PLB system. Vermont was selected because of its dense forest and mountain range, coupled with a high population of tourists who hike, ski and contribute to about 30 missing-persons rescue missions in the state annually. The July 1 demonstration will be a joint venture with the USMCC, the AFRCC, the Vermont State Search and Rescue Coordinator (Vermont State Police), the Vermont Civil Air Patrol and the Boy Scouts.

The introduction of PLBs provide a tremendous resource for protecting the lives of outdoor enthusiasts that was unthinkable prior to the Space Age. With a 406 MHz PLB, search and rescue authorities will enhance upon their ability to locate those in distress anywhere in the world at anytime and in most conditions. Truly, these beacons—and the Cospas-Sarsat system—are helping to take the “search” out of search and rescue.

Relevant Web Sites
COSPAS-SARSAT SEARCH AND RESCUE SYSTEM—TAKING THE "SEARCH" OUT OF
"SEARCH AND RESCUE"

HIKERS AND OUTDOOR ADVENTURERS TO HAVE SAME SATELLITE PROTECTION AS PILOTS AND MARINERS; NOAA AND ITS PARTNERS CELEBRATE 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF INTERNATIONAL SEARCH AND RESCUE SATELLITE AIDED TRACKING PROGRAM

171 PEOPLE RESCUED IN THE U.S. IN 2002 WITH HELP FROM NOAA SATELLITES

NOAA/USCG ANNOUNCES FREQUENCY ACCESS FOR LAND-BASED DISTRESS BEACONS IN CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES; HOUSTON CEREMONY CELEBRATES SEARCH AND RESCUE SATELLITE PROGRAM ANNIVERSARY

NOAA Satellites and Information

International Cospas-Sarsat program

Recent Rescues

HISTORY OF THE SARSAT SYSTEM

Sarsat Satellites

EMERGENCY POSITION INDICATING RADIO BEACONS(EPIRBs), EMERGENCY LOCATOR TRANSMITTERS (ELTs), and PERSONAL LOCATOR BEACONS (PLBs)

ALASKA PLB PROGRAM

ONLY YOU CAN PREVENT FALSE ALARMS

BEACON REGISTRATION FORMS

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

SARSAT PROGRAM & SYSTEM DOCUMENTATION

SARSAT SLIDE PRESENTATIONS

Media Contact:
John Leslie, NOAA Satellites and Information, (301) 457-5005

[Iceaxe]

Hiker stranded in snowstorm on Mount Charleston rescued

A Canadian hiker rescued today after being stranded in a snowstorm on Mount Charleston said he called for help because he was afraid of getting lost if he tried to make it down alone.

The hiker, Gregory Rudowsky, and his dog, Tiki, were lifted off the mountain via helicopter by a Metro Police search and rescue team.

Rudowsky, an experienced hiker, said he walked up the Bonanza Trail in Lee Canyon on Wednesday with plans to camp overnight and hike out Thursday morning. But when he woke up Thursday, a winter storm had already dumped two feet of snow on the ground, he said.

Police were alerted at 8:34 a.m. Thursday that the hiker and his dog were stranded when he used an emergency locator — a SPOT Personal Tracker — to send a short text message, Metro spokesman Bill Cassell said.

Rudowsky, who said he checked the weather for Las Vegas but not Mount Charleston before embarking on his hike, said he knew he only had a two-mile hike to get off the mountain but was afraid of getting lost.

“The trail isn’t particularly well-marked. You only see it where the footprints are and it was completely snowed in,” he said.

A Metro search and rescue team was dispatched Thursday, but rescue efforts were suspended that evening because of the hazardous weather conditions.

A Canadian hiker rescued today after being stranded in a snowstorm on Mount Charleston said he called for help because he was afraid of getting lost if he tried to make it down alone.

The hiker, Gregory Rudowsky, and his dog, Tiki, were lifted off the mountain via helicopter by a Metro Police search and rescue team.

Rudowsky, an experienced hiker, said he walked up the Bonanza Trail in Lee Canyon on Wednesday with plans to camp overnight and hike out Thursday morning. But when he woke up Thursday, a winter storm had already dumped two feet of snow on the ground, he said.

Police were alerted at 8:34 a.m. Thursday that the hiker and his dog were stranded when he used an emergency locator — a SPOT Personal Tracker — to send a short text message, Metro spokesman Bill Cassell said.

Rudowsky, who said he checked the weather for Las Vegas but not Mount Charleston before embarking on his hike, said he knew he only had a two-mile hike to get off the mountain but was afraid of getting lost.

“The trail isn’t particularly well-marked. You only see it where the footprints are and it was completely snowed in,” he said.

A Metro search and rescue team was dispatched Thursday, but rescue efforts were suspended that evening because of the hazardous weather conditions.

Rudowsky let police know that he would be able to make it through the night, but would need help getting out today. By Thursday night, he said, at least four feet of snow had accumulated.

He said he had a tent and sleeping bags for him and his dog and never got cold, despite conditions on the mountain.

Rudowsky and his dog were pulled onto the hovering helicopter about 11 a.m. and taken to the North Las Vegas Airport.

Sgt. Gavin Vesp, who oversees the search and rescue team, said the SPOT device turned what could have been a two-day search into just a couple hours.

“If he hadn’t had that device it would have been extremely difficult to nearly impossible to find him, particularly in the weather conditions that we had yesterday,” Vesp said. “The plan today was..fly in and be able to hoist him out, and that’s what we were able to do.”

Cloud coverage, several feet of snow and the cold hampered Thursday’s rescue efforts.

“We got probably within two and a half miles of him yesterday on foot and it was just too extreme with the snow that was coming down, so we had to turn around and come back,” said search and rescue officer Jim Rogan.

He said it was 18 degrees when the team went up in a helicopter Friday morning to search for Rudowsky, who was spotted waving at them from a treeline about 9,600 feet up the mountain in waist-deep snow.

“He was actually in the best shape that somebody could be in those kind of conditions,” Rogan said. “He had the proper equipment, he had the proper mind-set to stay with his tent...and rely on the locator he had.”

Rogan said a person as prepared as Rudowsky could have lasted up to a week on the mountain. He warned that even experienced hikers should be hiking within their own limits and bring the proper equipment.

“Don’t come up ill-prepared,” Rogan said. “You should always be prepared to be out in whatever elements you’re in for 24 hours.”

Rudowsky said it was great to finally see the helicopter coming to pick him up and that he would climb the mountain again as long as he didn’t have to bother the rescue team again.

“All my gear is up there,” Rudowsky said. “I may have to go back and get it.”

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/dec/02/rescuers-wait-break-weather-pluck-lost-hiker-mount/

[Iceaxe]

Hiker stranded in snowstorm on Mount Charleston rescued

A Canadian hiker rescued today after being stranded in a snowstorm on Mount Charleston said he called for help because he was afraid of getting lost if he tried to make it down alone.

The hiker, Gregory Rudowsky, and his dog, Tiki, were lifted off the mountain via helicopter by a Metro Police search and rescue team.

Rudowsky, an experienced hiker, said he walked up the Bonanza Trail in Lee Canyon on Wednesday with plans to camp overnight and hike out Thursday morning. But when he woke up Thursday, a winter storm had already dumped two feet of snow on the ground, he said.

Police were alerted at 8:34 a.m. Thursday that the hiker and his dog were stranded when he used an emergency locator

[maarten.1975]

Well, a lot of replies, I scanned all of them, and I think I didn't see this link yet:

http://bolty.net/2011/04/28/by-the-numbers-spot-messenger-vs-acr-resqlink-vs-mcmurdo-fast-find-210/

It is a review of SPOT Messenger vs ACR ResQLink vs McMurdo Fast Find 210.

The chances of Spot being able to reach outside of a slot canyon are minimal is the conclusion.
The other 2 devices (working with 460 MHz instead of 1610 MHz) will have much higher chance of doing this!

So I think the answer to your question, whether Spot can reach outside of slot canyons, sadly has to be a no... :ne_nau:

[Cirrus2000]

I agree with Big_E! about Rule #2 and Rule #1. Tom's version of Rule #1 isn't a rule - it's The Situation. "Know your limit, play within it" is Strategy. Leaving someone watching where I'm going and knowing my plan is Tactics - the rules of engagement.

I know that my old, outdated SPOT isn't going to get the signal out from the bottom of a slot, but I always leave a track behind when I'm hiking in (that extra $50/year is a bargain, to me). And I always, before I drop below the rim, send up an "OK" signal. And another when I'm back at the car/camp/whatever. These are hard and fast rules when I'm on my own, especially. That Last Known Position thing is huge, for SAR.

[spinesnaper]

I agree with Big_E! about Rule #2 and Rule #1. Tom's version of Rule #1 isn't a rule - it's The Situation. "Know your limit, play within it" is Strategy. Leaving someone watching where I'm going and knowing my plan is Tactics - the rules of engagement.

I know that my old, outdated SPOT isn't going to get the signal out from the bottom of a slot, but I always leave a track behind when I'm hiking in (that extra $50/year is a bargain, to me). And I always, before I drop below the rim, send up an "OK" signal. And another when I'm back at the car/camp/whatever. These are hard and fast rules when I'm on my own, especially. That Last Known Position thing is huge, for SAR.

Peace of mind is knowing your device will ping out of the stone prison you are trapped in. It is one thing waiting 10 hours knowing that someone will pick up your signal. It is a whole other thing sitting in a canyon waiting rescue and not knowing if anyone will get your signal or any of your bread crumbs. It you are relying on SAR to pick up bread crumbs that means you are waiting until your loved ones let local authorities/SAR know that you are overdue. That is a profoundly different set of time windows. Unfortunately, when you need to be rescued, you often need to be rescued now. Tom's rule number one is right on. However, I believe that he has violated that rule on at least a couple of occasions. $250 for that kind of peace of mind is well worth it but it is still a chunk of change. Perhaps ZAC could consider renting these. (I know I am going to get it for making that suggestion.:nod:)

That hiker on Mt. Charleston made the right call. That is what the gear is for. We can debate if a more experienced hiker would have hiked out. Undoubtedly, the answer for some is sure of course.

[tley430]

That hiker on Mt. Charleston made the right call. That is what the gear is for. We can debate if a more experienced hiker would have hiked out. Undoubtedly, the answer for some is sure of course.

:2thumbs: I agree that the hiker made the right call

And yes, a more experienced hiker would have been equipped with a handheld GPS unit (like a Garmin) or something he/she could use to just back-track their route!

[ratagonia]

Not being there, it is of course hard to say anything intelligent, but ... since I am an * and this is Bogley, I will say something stupid.

I have no problem using the SPOT when the person was in trouble. But he was not in trouble yet. He had a tent, sleeping bags, stove, water, food, etc. He had a SPOT for emergencies. He could have TRIED to get out, but he did not, he called for rescue before he was in trouble.

Given the story as reported, he abused the system and should be billed for the rescue.

That said, news reporters don't necessarily get the story right. "Experienced hiker" - what does that mean? He did not check the weather report where he was going. Sounds like he did not have a map or a gps. Perhaps he did not have the clothes for hiking in the snow... Perhaps he had never seen snow before and did not know how snow works (but, he IS Canadian, so unlikely). Perhaps perhaps...

I hope most people here would at least make an effort to get themselves out, before calling in the cavalry. :facepalm1:

Tom **** :moses:

[restrac2000]

The article stated he could have lasted a week because of how prepared he was. That to me hints the SAR call was not immediately needed. If he was that prepared (according to the SAR) he could have given it a day or two for the weather to subside. SAR shouldn't be used for preventing risk to comfort but those situations that are a risk to life. IMHO

Phillip

[spinesnaper]

OK you guys are harsh.

"Experienced hiker" doesn't that almost always precede: is survived by....?

I have had two separate occasions of seeing "experienced hikers" decompensate in snowy conditions. Once in Sequoia National Park my hiking partner essential lost it after relatively heavy snow had been falling for a couple of hours. I had no trouble seeking the slight contour depression in the snow outlining the trail. Had to slap my partner out of the mind set. Another occasion was on a late November hike with a small group of Sierra club hikers on Freel Peak, an 11000 footer in the Carson range near Lake Tahoe. We were dealing with hip snow deep drifts but with the lay of the land, it would have been hard to get too lost. Again a very "experienced hiker" decided he just wanted to lay down in the snow at 3PM. Fortunately a couple of us were able to convince him it was not the best time or spot for a nap.

I could image that either of these individuals on their own really would not feel that they had any other option but to hit the panic (spot/PLB) button.

Charge them for their rescue? The good news is if you know were they are within 3 meters, they are not so hard to find. That should limit the cost of the rescue. The reality is that as more of these happen enterprising public servants will figure out how to make end users pay for these services one way or another. Perhaps the new canyoneering associations can sell us all rescue insurance as part of our membership.

Ken

[ratagonia]

Charge them for their rescue? The good news is if you know where they are within 3 meters, they are not so hard to find. That should limit the cost of the rescue. The reality is that as more of these happen, enterprising public servants will figure out how to make end users pay for these services one way or another. Perhaps the new canyoneering associations can sell us all rescue insurance as part of our membership.

Ken

The ambitious public servants HAVE figured out how to get people to pay for these rescues - advertise! Press Releases, shoot pixels for the 10 pm news: Rescue people, splash it across the headlines... Folks, we need another 50 million for the helicopter rescue squad - good news, it comes out of Homeland Security - your government deficit spending at work!!! That's Federal money - it's free!

[/rave]

:moses:

[spinesnaper]

It is a great country isn't it? Soon the drones will be doing the searching. They multi-task and can be used to search for pot farms too (we have a bit of a problem with this in California parks).

Ken