Overdue Bogleyites in Kolob [Archive] - Bogley Outdoor Community

Jaxx

08-28-2011, 11:52 AM

Hey guys. A few of my in-laws went down to do Kolob on Saturday and they haven't checked in yet. The last we heard of them is at about 2:45 yesterday we got a spot message from in the canyon. It looked like it was near the start.

I talked to some Rangers and the Zion dispatch and I think the plan is to send a Ranger up to check and see if their vehicle is still at the TH.

I tried to look up the flow for Kolob res and can't find anything. Anyone have any recent beta on flow, etc.

This is their first time through Kolob. When I was talking to one of the rangers he asked if I knew a couple of other people. Their names weren't familiar but they were also overdue in the same "area."

I didn't go with them because my wife just had our first boy a few days ago. I didn't even ask if I could go:haha:

Anyone want to do Kolob? haha. Does anyone have canyonman's signal spotlight?

Edit: I forgot to mention the members are Chabidiah, his wife-Alpine Butterfly, Redpb, and Boots

UPDATE: A Ranger is parked at the vehicles waiting to see if they come in. If they haven't then they will send a helicopter at 3 PM to fly over the area.

Deathcricket

08-28-2011, 12:24 PM

Oh no bro. I'm sure everything will be fine though. Please keep us updated!

ratagonia

08-28-2011, 12:35 PM

Jaxx

08-28-2011, 12:52 PM

Heavy thunderstorms in the area last night.

You are leaving a lot out. Single-day Kolob out MIA on Saturday?
Tom

I was worried about the weather. I saw the weather report last night and it got me worried.

They were planning on Kolob in a day out the MIA. They have never done the MIA before.

I got the spot email at about 2:45 PM. I don't know if SPOT messages are relayed quickly or not. That is just when I got the last message in my email.

The ranger said that their car was at the trailhead.

Jaxx

08-28-2011, 12:54 PM

Oh no bro. I'm sure everything will be fine though. Please keep us updated!

For sure. I wouldn't be worried about it except I didn't give him my magical bottle of sunlight!

tanya

08-28-2011, 02:09 PM

Bo is in New Mexico this weekend. He should be back in the AM. He usually has some info. Are they back yet?

Jaxx

08-28-2011, 02:18 PM

haven't heard from them yet

ghawk

08-28-2011, 02:29 PM

Hope everything works out. Lots of people have trouble with the MIA exit. Had some friends take a wrong turn there and get stuck overnight once. Hope they turn up soon

Jaxx

08-28-2011, 02:37 PM

Just got a SPOT "ok" message. Looks like they are at the top of the MIA exit. YEAH!

ilipichicuma

08-28-2011, 03:10 PM

Hope everything works out. Lots of people have trouble with the MIA exit. Had some friends take a wrong turn there and get stuck overnight once. Hope they turn up soon

Yeah, that was me. It's easy to get lost in there if you don't know where you're going. I'm glad they made it out safe!

tanya

08-28-2011, 04:47 PM

YAY!

They are so lucky. On the east side of Zion we just got crazy hard rain! Flood time again!

reflection

08-28-2011, 06:05 PM

Two parties (reportedly) entered Kolob (technical) Saturday. Park Service reported that no (known) groups went through Sunday. Park Service permit records showed BOTH as "day" permits and NOT as over-nite. Sunday noonish I got a call from a ranger inquiring re Group A that started out early Sat morning and that was "overdue". The ranger also stated that another group (B) that began later in the afternoon, was reportedly in the canyon and "overdue." At 2-3 pm Sunday, officials were "talking about" sending in a chopper. I spoke with one of the 3 adults (from group A) at approx 3pm Sunday, while at Lava Point CG. The "leader" of that group of 3 swears that "they" asked for and obtained an "overnite" permit and NOT a day permit. (In their minds they were NOT overdue). Group B, may have been the same, or not? Asked for an overnite and were issued only a day permit? Park Officials, for a number of hours were concerned. I spoke with the command ranger again at 3:15 pm and he reminded me that many groups, going down Oak, Boundary or Kolob (for the first time) will often miss the MIA exit. And he wondered who slipped up on the permits, day vs overnite - Park people or miscommunicating public? No question, that for a few hours, there was serious, honest concern (and drama -my term) on the Park side of things.

I got a report Friday afternoon (from a party in group A) that in spite of the water running from the Rez, under the road and down the "falls",(3-5cfs) there was only a minor flow at the intial (first rap area) zone where folk drop in. BUT THEN it reportedly rained hard for hours Fri nite at Lava Point and so conditions Saturday likely changed, or maybe not?

Anway, an interesting Sunday afternoon... Nervous "service" with the Park Service "conducting", anxious Bogleyites in the "crowd", and two independent groups in their own redrock quest, (part of the congregation but missing) exiting the "demons and bowels" of Kolob. Final grace was offered when the "holy" spot from on high showed group B, near their final destination. Services concluded (and all retreated home (thank goodness), worn but reportedly safe. Group A claims two "spots" (We're OK) were sent (Sat and Sun) but those "holy hymns from on high" never arrived and were never heard (by targeted participants). Kolob, a territory with it's own set of ever changing circumstances and reputation.

spinesnaper

08-28-2011, 07:26 PM

I am sure that it is possible to miss the MIA exit, fatigue etc. However, it was super obvious to us when we cruised by a couple of weeks ago doing Boundry. Hopefully everyone will be out safely and we will hear from these parties. Its big country back there.

Ken:popcorn:

nelsonccc

08-28-2011, 08:33 PM

haven't heard from them yet

I heard from Trent this afternoon. They're out but had to spend the night half way up the MIA. I was supposed to go but had to work. Too bad, I love Kolob.

I'll never forget our first trip up MIA. We didn't have to spend the night but we wondered around in the dark quite a bit. Classic mistake of going to high on the left as you ascend. I think we got back to the car around 2 in the morning.

ratagonia

08-28-2011, 08:41 PM

I heard from Trent this afternoon. They're out but had to spend the night half way up the MIA.

Reminds me of the todo outlined in a Kelsey book a couple years ago under the title "Don't Blame ME!"

Seems like Kelsey said Adventure X makes for a long day, so be sure to get an early start. Posse Y got an early start, had a few difficulties and spent the night in the canyon, rescue was called out, etc. They were very upset, and looking for someone other than the people in their shoes to blame. Must be the GUIDEBOOK AUTHOR'S FAULT. Well maybe not, Posse Y's idea of an early start was leaving Salt Lake around 8 am. That's Early!!

So, now that all seems to be well, folks out of the canyon and all, let me say: WTF!!! Starting the Canyon at 2:45? Maybe if y'all were real experienced, had done it a few times before, were quick and sharp on the ropes, knew the MIA pretty well... In other words, WTF??? Would youse guyz get your act together! You're making canyoneers look bad!!! :angryfire:

What were you thinking? :facepalm1: (Inquiring minds want to know!) :naughty:

Tom :moses:

nelsonccc

08-28-2011, 09:13 PM

The guys I know went in around 8:30, they texted me at 7:28 Saturday morning saying they finally had gotten their permits....Fooking permit system. So it must have been another group that went in that afternoon.

spinesnaper

08-28-2011, 09:40 PM

In other words, WTF??? Would youse guyz get your act together! You're making canyoneers look bad!!! :angryfire:

What were you thinking? :facepalm1: (Inquiring minds want to know!) :naughty:

Tom :moses:

Tom

Well stated. Glad they're well. Guess someone forgot to tell them that when we state Alpine start we are talking AM not PM!!!

Ken:fitz:

Boots

08-28-2011, 09:42 PM

Ok, first of all...thank you every one for your concerns!

Now for the first hand story:

We received our permit at 7:15 Saturday morning and then hit up ZAC to get our dry suits and went up to Kolob creek to visually check the flow of the water. Then we headed straight to the TH. We entered the canyon in the morning, sent a spot not long after and apparently it took hours to get to Jaxx.

Shortly after entering the canyon Redpb suffered a minor knee injury which caused us to slow our pace considerably. It began to get dark and we knew it wouldn't be smart to try the MIA for the first time at night. We set up camp for the night just shy of MIA. We had a pleasant night, with no problems.

Early in the morning we took off and headed up that "WONDERFUL" MIA climb. With a hurt knee, it took us a lot longer than normal. We had been sending OK spot messages throughout the entire trip but none were received until we got to the top of the MIA. We never plan on staying the night but we always go prepared. Overall we absolutely loved Kolob Canyon.

ratagonia

08-28-2011, 10:01 PM

Ok, first of all...thank you everyone for your concerns!

Now for the first hand story:

We received our permit at 7:15 Saturday morning and then hit up ZAC to get our dry suits and went up to Kolob creek to visually check the flow of the water. Then we headed straight to the TH. We entered the canyon in the morning, sent a spot not long after and apparently it took hours to get to Jaxx.

Shortly after entering the canyon Redpb suffered a minor knee injury which caused us to slow our pace considerably. It began to get dark and we knew it wouldn't be smart to try the MIA for the first time at night. We set up camp for the night just shy of MIA. We had a pleasant night, with no problems.

Early in the morning we took off and headed up that "WONDERFUL" MIA climb. With a hurt knee, it took us a lot longer than normal. We had been sending OK spot messages throughout the entire trip but none were received until we got to the top of the MIA. We never plan on staying the night but we always go prepared. Overall we absolutely loved Kolob Canyon.

Thank you. Excellent, sounds like y'all acted responsibly. Looks like it was me who went off prematurely :facepalm1: :facepalm1:

Huh! Seems like the timestamp on the Spot messages would be rather important.

Tom

spinesnaper

08-29-2011, 06:27 AM

Who said there are two types of canyoneers: Those who have had an unplanned overnight bivouac and those who will have an unplanned overnight bivouac?

Ken:naughty:

bshwakr

08-29-2011, 08:45 AM

Who said there are two types of canyoneers: Those who have had an unplanned overnight bivouac and those who will have an unplanned overnight bivouac?

Ken:naughty:

I've had a few of those, but none were due to a late start.

k

tcott

08-29-2011, 10:02 AM

I've had a few of those, but none were due to a late start.

k

Were they due to excessive bushwacking???

bshwakr

08-29-2011, 10:05 AM

I would say it is more due to my propensity to go with... ahem...old people.

K

reflection

08-29-2011, 11:42 AM

Interesting that park officials did/do take such a heightened interest in perceived overdue "hikers" in the Kolob zone.
Two groups went through Saturday. One (group A) planning an overnite and the second getting suprised and staying overnite. (The Park though, for a while, believed that two groups were overdue.)

Sunday eve I spoke with parties from group A. They said it was "slow going" from the last "blasting waterfall" rap in Kolob. Lots of wading, smimming and slow travel, with slippery rocks, & mud. They were "worn out" by the time they reached the bottom of the MIA, and stayed there that nite, AS PLANNED. Group A Sunday, "apparently" topped out at West Rim trailhead approx 1-2 hours before group B. (I know other groups that have gone through much of the same and still, have gone all the way to the Narrows, and beyond in one day, or out the MIA - whatever; different folk have different styles, interests and speed. And if folk Did PLAN to stay overnite, they would carry more weight/gear.)

After speaking with the rangers though, and feeling and sensing their tension and concern, I'm reminded that "some" folk, probably, should signal (on their permit) a possible/planned overnite if/when they tag a Kolob res. That way, if the venture stretches into two days, nobody is "overdue" after day one.

Also, if it's going to be a one day venture, folk should have a crew that equitably carries the weight, is fit, and doesn't linger once the last "big rap" is concluded. Folk need to rehydrate, take in electrolytes and pay attention to time and speed of travel. (Or) This is all "nonsense"....folk will do canyons, Kolob in particular, any which way they wish, (and in their minds) shame on the Park Service or "snappy" canyoneers for questioning them or having concern. There is a chaotic crowd, at times/often, that enters some of these zones, and then gets to enroll in the MIA exit quest. Let's see, Oaks, Boundary, Kolob...unplanned bivys when folk "gave out", people giving out on the MIA exit, and folk collapsing when they reach the road atop the MIA exit. (Is this all make believe, I don't think so) And is this all make believe that Park Service Staff Sunday - mid day - were REAL CONCERNED? Those that haven't entered "these zones" or the "beloved MIA exit", pause before you finalize the permit or plans (or throw caution to the wind and care not for your crew or for the Park Service.) Tardy (tawdry) carefree canyoneers that quickly become "SAR (Park Service) trail bait"?

And, family members, friends, should be trained to stall, stop...and not call park officials if someone is merely hours, or a half day or day tardy, if they did the Kolob venture. Some, can, do it easily in a day, others, always seem to (oops)stretch it into two. If/when a family member calls, Park Service SAR jump to attention. And the dimension and context of the "experience" changes. (How to know, that someone is slow, stalled, or is injured, or in trouble; even with a "sent" SPOT that is not working or is "haywire".)

And the SPOT system, that is often so dysfunctional, inside canyons. Not sending out signals when "senders" believe they were sent, OR long delays in actual sending when the unit shows the signal was sent. More chaos I surmise.

Two completedly different narratives. Park Service that was so attentive and concerned for hours. And canyoneers (aloof re the concern of possible SAR) that finally reach the West Rim trailhead vehicles, tired and worn). Those that pay their dues, try hard, to stay free (and far) from this "tension" that builds, when Park Service officials are put in these situations.

And then the tumbling, fumbling or rigid truthful facts that evidence once the SAR concern has passed. Communication, expectation, adaptation, flexibility...I'd rather meet rangers or LE Officers in a social setting than in a search/rescue...things can get intense quickly, "and the other side" often, (just like life) doesn't have a clue that others out there, have a real concern, especially if they are stalled or slow.

Everybody (in the two groups) is safe and fine. Is that the end of it? Ever wonder why the Water Conservancy District and the Backcountry Park Officials (try and) lean toward announcing that more than 5 cfs is running in Kolob? Yes, I heard it in the voices of the two rangers yesterday, that tension...is that the end of it? I don't know? Maybe for them, another day at work, or maybe more management concern re Kolob? Truth or Consequences? And then by golly, responsible folk that "tag" that OK spot early in the morning and later in the afternoon - but it never sends, or sends "late." Equitable mitigation I guess? Lots of trustworthy, reasonable people out there too, trying to communicate - but the system stalls. Sunday the specter, call from a nephew in windy Rhode Island (Hurricane) and the call from the Rangers (another mini-hurricane of activity, of sorts).

canyonguru

08-29-2011, 02:02 PM

Just wondering why you guys didn't get your permits the day before and also your dry suites. ZAC will let you get your stuff the night before with no extra charge. This way you could have started the canyon at 7:15 instead of just getting your permits at 7:15. Glad to hear that you had a good time and that all went well. I would love to try Kolob one of these days, maybe next year. I was in line Saturday morning around 7 ish to get some pine creek permits for some boys.

I loved the retards at the window in front of us reading their Tom Jones Zion book deciding what permits they wanted while holding the rest of us up. Good book but holy crap figure out what you are doing before you get to the window.

Boots

08-29-2011, 03:27 PM

Just wondering why you guys didn't get your permits the day before and also your dry suites. ZAC will let you get your stuff the night before with no extra charge. This way you could have started the canyon at 7:15 instead of just getting your permits at 7:15.

Two of us don't get off work until 5:00 pm, so we weren't able to leave Orem until just before 6:00 pm. By the time we got down there, it was too late to get permits or any of the gear we needed from ZAC.

ratagonia

08-29-2011, 04:53 PM

Two of us don't get off work until 5:00 pm, so we weren't able to leave Orem until just before 6:00 pm. By the time we got down there, it was too late to get permits or any of the gear we needed from ZAC.

I think there is somewhat of a disconnect here.

I don't think it unreasonable of you guys to go do Kolob. I think it unreasonable of you guys to embarrass yourselves and the canyoneering community by having SAR called out (however minimally), when no reasonable canyoneer ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman ) would expect you to pick up your permit in the morning, pick up gear, drive to Lava Point and get out of that canyon, up the MIA, that evening. The BOOK lists it as a Grade IV or V:

Kolob Rating: 3C IV or V
Time required: 9 to 12 hours

page 126: Grade IV: expected to take a long day. Get up early, bring a headlamp. Possible bivy.

(going out through the Narrows would make it a Grade V).

If you had acted reasonably, and just taken an overnight permit, then there would be no kerfuffle, and we would be high-fiving you for a wonderful trip report.

Thus: Kerfuffle.

:moses:

ratagonia

08-29-2011, 04:54 PM

I would say it is more due to my propensity to go with... ahem...old people.

K

Hey, I resemble that remark. C'mon over here and I'll beat you with my cane!!!!

:moses:

mdd

08-29-2011, 05:04 PM

I think it unreasonable of you guys to embarrass yourselves and the canyoneering community by having SAR called out...

Lighten up, Tom. Nobody's perfect.

Edited to add: if anything, this episode shows just how much more cumbersome Zion canyoneering is to those that don't live next to Zion. It isn't always easy to get into town, get your permit, get your ZAC equipment etc given the logistics of driving in, say, after work or whatever. It's too bad the NPS and apparently ZAC couldn't be more accommodating.

M

Scott P

08-29-2011, 06:00 PM

If you had acted reasonably, and just taken an overnight permit, then there would be no kerfuffle, and we would be high-fiving you for a wonderful trip report.

What would the overnight permit be for? Isn't any part of Upper Kolob (i.e. above MIA) that is reasonable to camp well outside the park boundary? Even if you planned to do it in two days while exiting at MIA, I thought you wouldn't need an overnight permit? :ne_nau:

ratagonia

08-29-2011, 06:34 PM

What would the overnight permit be for? Isn't any part of Upper Kolob (i.e. above MIA) that is reasonable to camp well outside the park boundary? Even if you planned to do it in two days while exiting at MIA, I thought you wouldn't need an overnight permit? :ne_nau:

Part of the justification for the Permit Program is that then the Park SAR knows what your plans are, and knows when to get riled up for a rescue. You need a permit for Kolob, and you tell them your plans then, one day or two day - out MIA or out The Narrows (requires Narrows Permit), bivy inside the park or outside the park. All on the same permit, no extra fee.

So, yes, Mr. Shadetree Lawyer, you do not need an overnight permit for bivying outside the Park. But providing information that ends up being incorrect - that is impolite.

Tom :moses:

nelsonccc

08-29-2011, 06:45 PM

I told them not to even bother with a permit. Waste of time and in this case causes exactly what I told them would happen, a late start and subsequently a late finish. These guys are very adept at canyons and far more athletic than I am. In their defense I think that without the knee injury to redbp they would have just been like most everyone else, finishing the mia in the dark. The 1st time I did it we got a late start too, like at 10. We finished fine, albeit with a long wondering finish up the MIA.

They may have gotten a bit of a late start for that canyon and perhaps overestimated their time allowances accordingly, but who here hasn't done that? Especially in Zion? the real issue is that the family should know NOT to call sar till 24-48 hours have past. Thats what I tell people. I'm always prepared for an overnighter and my family knows not to worry till evening of the day after the scheduled exit time.

ratagonia

08-29-2011, 06:46 PM

Lighten up, Tom. Nobody's perfect.

Edited to add: if anything, this episode shows just how much more cumbersome Zion canyoneering is to those that don't live next to Zion. It isn't always easy to get into town, get your permit, get your ZAC equipment etc given the logistics of driving in, say, after work or whatever. It's too bad the NPS and apparently ZAC couldn't be more accommodating.

M

This kind of nonsense is what causes land managers and SAR supervisors to view canyoneers with a jaundiced eye. So, I decline your request to lighten up.

It's not like any of this was hidden from these guys. ALL I'm complaining about is that they did not tell the permit writer that they would likely be taking two days to do the canyon. OR that they did not tell that to whomever called out the rescue squad.

Let's see, earliest possible permit - 7:15. ZAC opens at 8:00, if they had called ahead and reserved, maybe out of there by 8:15. Lava Point by 9:15, fast pack = start hiking at 9:30. Even at fast-book-time of 9:00, that would be 6:30 pm, that gives an hour and a half of extra time until sunset, but... first time through this canyon, first time up the MIA, not very experienced in this kind of canyon - unlikely to make fast book time, more like slow-book-time = 12 hours, in which case that means 12:00 hours = bivy before starting up the MIA.

To me, it seems conspicuous that they were going to bivy. So it would have been nice to tell whomever that, so the cavalry was not called out quite so soon.

Tom :moses:

ratagonia

08-29-2011, 06:48 PM

Lighten up, Tom. Nobody's perfect.

M

Doesn't using the word 'Kerfuffle' constitute lightening up???

T :moses:

Scott P

08-29-2011, 07:45 PM

Tom: If you had acted reasonably, and just taken an overnight permit, then there would be no kerfuffle, and we would be high-fiving you for a wonderful trip report.

Scott: What would the overnight permit be for? Isn't any part of Upper Kolob (i.e. above MIA) that is reasonable to camp well outside the park boundary? Even if you planned to do it in two days while exiting at MIA, I thought you wouldn't need an overnight permit? :ne_nau:

Tom: Part of the justification for the Permit Program is that then the Park SAR knows what your plans are, and knows when to get riled up for a rescue. You need a permit for Kolob, and you tell them your plans then, one day or two day - out MIA or out The Narrows (requires Narrows Permit), bivy inside the park or outside the park. All on the same permit, no extra fee.

So, yes, Mr. Shadetree Lawyer, you do not need an overnight permit for bivying outside the Park. But providing information that ends up being incorrect - that is impolite.

Tom, I haven't done upper Kolob (only below MIA to the Narrows) yet, so it was the NPS rangers themselves who told me that there are no reasonable campsites in Upper Kolob until you are outside the park (at least according to them) and thus (according to the NPS) no overnight camping permits are issued for Upper Kolob (and you must camp outside the park), hence the question.

Somewhere there was an old canyons group thread I started that was about camping in Kolob.

Or do you mean that you are supposed to get a day permit, but just have them write on the permit that you are camping outside the park on day 2? Or do they issue overnight permits for Upper Kolob now? Last time I tried to get a permit for Kolob was in 2007, so maybe this information is old, but when I do the canyon, I'd probably rather overnight it. (Then again, once I was even told that overnight permits weren't issued for Imlay [there is another canyons group thread on this], so maybe the above isn't true).

Spidey

08-29-2011, 08:06 PM

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around why it took both groups so long in there? I intentionally get started late (11:00 a.m.) on that side, just to have shade up the MIA at 6-7 p.m.

ratagonia

08-29-2011, 08:12 PM

Tom, I haven't done upper Kolob (only below MIA to the Narrows) yet, so it was the NPS rangers themselves who told me that there are no reasonable campsites in Upper Kolob until you are outside the park (at least according to them) and thus (according to the NPS) no overnight camping permits are issued for Upper Kolob (and you must camp outside the park), hence the question.

Somewhere there was an old canyons group thread I started that was about camping in Kolob.

Or do you mean that you are supposed to get a day permit, but just have them write on the permit that you are camping outside the park on day 2? Or do they issue overnight permits for Upper Kolob now? Last time I tried to get a permit for Kolob was in 2007, so maybe this information is old, but when I do the canyon, I'd probably rather overnight it. (Then again, once I was even told that overnight permits weren't issued for Imlay [there is another canyons group thread on this], so maybe the above isn't true).

Perhaps I am assuming too much on the Permit Systems sophistication - and perhaps this explains why the other party was also considered "overdue", even though they were on the schedule they expected to be on. Or perhaps, the personnel writing the permits were not aware that this distinction was important, as to what day the folks expected to be out.

One is "in the Park", at least on the right bank of the stream, for quite a ways past the "last rap". One's interpretations of what constitutes a reasonable bivy site varies from person to person. When I am really, really tired, it does not take much. So, yes, there are reasonable bivy spots IN the park, in upper Kolob - but that is not really the point. The 'normal' bivy spot for a two-day non-MIA Kolob would be somewhere between the MIA and the Narrows, some of which is in the Park, some of which is not.

Tom :moses:

ratagonia

08-29-2011, 08:15 PM

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around why it took both groups so long in there? I intentionally get started late (11:00 a.m.) on that side, just to have shade up the MIA at 6-7 p.m.

These people, they are not Spidey. They have no Spidey powers.

jes' sayin'

:moses:

Scott P

08-29-2011, 08:40 PM

When I am really, really tired, it does not take much. So, yes, there are reasonable bivy spots IN the park, in upper Kolob - but that is not really the point.

Yes, but I don't think you understood the question. I was asking if the NPS even issues overnight permits for upper Kolob. I was under the impression that they did not, but that you could still camp outside the park.

I guess this is getting off topic though.

Iceaxe

08-29-2011, 09:15 PM

NOTE TO SELF: Don't waste coin buying a SPOT, they are a P.O.S.

Sombeech

08-29-2011, 10:40 PM

Sometimes the SPOT works great, but I guess once in a while the message is very delayed. When Alex and I just did the Gates of Lodore trip (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?57262-Gates-of-Lodore-on-Green-River-through-Dinosaur-National-Monument), we would send a SPOT twice a day. My wife was on the list to get notifications. She got her first one 3 days after we had gotten home, then they kept coming in.

Now some will say that's the T-Mobile cell service screwing up, which may be the case. :ne_nau:

xxnitsuaxx

08-30-2011, 12:44 AM

Scott P

08-30-2011, 05:50 AM

Bo_Beck

08-30-2011, 07:14 AM

I would say it is more due to my propensity to go with... ahem...old people.

K

Will you still go with...ahem....old people when you are...ahem....old? Will you plan on 2 nights?:haha:

ratagonia

08-30-2011, 07:43 AM

Is Kolob even available for express permits?

It's not available for online reservations in the normal system:

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcountry.cfm?TripTypeID=3

Kolob is a special case, the Park wants to see you face to face. The Express Permit System only covers the "greatest hits". Ironically, it does not allow printing permits for many canyons where competition for the permits is low.

T

mdd

08-30-2011, 08:40 AM

I hear a lot of people complaining about the permit system and how they have to waste time picking their permits up. Why aren't people taking advantage of the Express permit system? Watch a couple of videos in the VC, pick a password, and you can start printing out your permits 3 days before your actual trip. Doesn't cost anything extra. If you hit Zion even just once a year it's worth it; why doesn't everyone do it?

The express permit system was a bunt that should've been a grand slam. It is especially worthless if you hit Zion just once a year. Here is my personal example:

I drive out from Colorado to go to Zion, which is about a 10-11 hour drive. According to the express permit rules, I must apply in person at the backcountry desk, I can't do it remote, so now I can't make use of the service until after I drive out. You have to renew each calendar year (*), so I can't just sign up once and have it be useful for my trip next year. So now that I can't make use of it until I'm out there, I sign up and all is well, right? Well no, you still need to print the permit out, which is kinda a pain since I don't carry a printer with me when I'm camping, and I don't necessarily camp in an area where going to an internet cafe is convenient. Now maybe they've changed the system in the last few years to make it nicer. I can only hope.

(*) Note: one page on the nps site (that would be the express permit login page) says you must sign up every year, another every 3 years. Hmm.

The express permit system is nice if you live in the area or can make an easy weekend trip to the park. For those of us a long distance away it's not so convenient.

M

Iceaxe

08-30-2011, 08:59 AM

The express permit system was a bunt that should've been a grand slam.

x2

You have to renew each calendar year (*),

The Express Permit system is now good for 3 calendar years (you sign up today your permit expires December 31, 2013).

I was also told that if you renew your permit before it expires, you do not have to watch the movies again (there are now two movies you have to watch)

I know all this because I just renewed my express permit. I didn't ask, and I wish I had of, but I'd like to know if you can renew your permit over the phone (before it expires) since you are not required to watch the movies for a renewal.

If you let your permit expire you have to do the entire dog and pony show again, even though they can look at their computer screen and see you have pulled 50-something odd permits over the past few years. :roll:

spinesnaper

08-30-2011, 10:18 AM

I live 8 hours out of the area (LA). I think express permits is swell-Jest sayin. Wish Kolob was on that list. Tom does that mean that Heaps and Imlay are also not on the express permits list?

Ken

reflection

08-30-2011, 01:20 PM

What's the relevant and compelling narrative in all of this? Two groups in Kolob on Saturday. One group HAD an overnite permit and planned to and did camp in the canyon adjacent to MIA exit. Once this was explained to rangers, their overdue status erased. The other group though, should have or could have obtained an overnite permit -but chose not to and/or were ignorant re the dues required for a wet march/swim after the technical stretch . Group two must have camped far above the exit point, because the group camping there heard not a whisper from anyone else. And another riddle; park rangers tagged group two as obtaining their permit at 10:00 am. Group two leader says permit was obtained at 7:15 am? Group two also doesn't understand the tension with Park SAR when the expectation is that parties are going to exit the same day. Almost argues for sending one person from the group up that can send a viable spot, can connect with family and can give an OK to inquiring rangers. And it's a reminder that maybe folk should change work schedules, get permits and suits a day in advance and if they wish to do the trip in a day, be realistic about what one can and can't do - and if there is doubt, GET THE OVERNITE in combo with the tech permit. And lets not dabble with the MIA exit in the dark, particularly if we've never done the venture before. And the lazy crazy Spot units. Group 1 told me they sent 2-3 spots. None of them "worked". And group two sends a spot that is delayed? Reliance on these units as a tool of communication, in many canyons, is nearly useless. I heard and felt the tension of the Park Service. Folk doing the canyon should pay attention...stay OFF the SAR radar...if things like this keep happening, unintended consequences...who knows what the future of Kolob is going to be? Maybe park officials should be more strident, give out overnite permits for Kolob unless specifically requested otherwise. And SAR unit not jump into play until at least 24 hours after the 2nd day. Somebody really slipped, getting a "late" start and not ever anticipating a possible overnite stay. Lessons or justified fables follow.

Jaxx

08-30-2011, 01:53 PM

Why did I even post this on Bogley? This has turned into a big cluster.... of bs quarterbacking about made up info. Top that all off with big egos. :roll:

The guys we were worried about (group 2, I think from reflections ramblings) had a bum knee slow them down. They started a little late and figured that they were not worried about bivying near the MIA. They ended up stopping about an hour from the MIA. Spots weren't getting through.
I called the bc desk at about 8:30 AM telling them that there was a party that should have been out yesterday but got a late start, I thought it was later but the SPOT message was delayed a few hours, and they probably just had to bivy.
I asked the Ranger what protocol was. I expressed that I wasn't too worried at that time but didn't know when to notify Rangers. He passed me on to dispatch and they said to call back later if I hadn't heard from them.
I got a call around 12:30 from dispatch asking if I had heard from them. I hadn't so they sent a Ranger to babysit the vehicle. They said they would have a helicopter sent over the canyon at around 3, that was later changed to 4 PM.
I called them at about 3:45 telling them I got an OK from the spot and don't send the heli. The Rangers spotted the group and everyone when home happy.
So a later start than normal, a bum knee slowing the group down, a few missed SPOT messages, and Rangers wanting to have a helicopter fly over elevated the situation.

The story isn't as glamorous and exciting as it has been made out to be. I was contemplating going down there that night and rim walking if we didn't hear anything from the heli fly-over.

I have to say the Rangers/Dispatch I talked to were awesome. :2thumbs:

mdd

08-30-2011, 02:33 PM

I heard and felt the tension of the Park Service. Folk doing the canyon should pay attention...stay OFF the SAR radar...if things like this keep happening, unintended consequences...who knows what the future of Kolob is going to be?

If I might ask, can you please post the interaction that led you to "feel the tension of the Park Service?" Especially given Jaxx's latest post, I find it hard to believe that, in Tom's words: "This kind of nonsense is what causes land managers and SAR supervisors to view canyoneers with a jaundiced eye." It sounds like the NPS acted without wrath or a jaundiced eye.

Unplanned bivys happen. If the NPS or SAR was really upset about them, we would never be climbing in Yosemite or RMNP, and we'd probably never be canyoneering in Zion or really on any public land. Statements like yours sound like a lot of grandstanding and fear mongering. I know several groups that had unplanned bivys who were contacted by SAR, they all report courteous interactions, not one has mentioned any sort of "tension" or scolding, none led to "unintended consequences", just everyone safe and sound.

Mistakes happen. Most people who have climbed or canyoneered for long enough have had an unplanned bivy or epic at some point. It's not the end of the world. Hell, several people died in a stupid preventable accident in Kolob (leading to expensive settlements) and in the end after the dust settled we can still go there, why would this unplanned bivy have "unintended consequences" concerning "the future of Kolob?"

This is a mountain out of a molehill if I've ever seen one.

I'm really glad everyone made it out ok. Now you have lessons learned and a cool story to tell around the campfire. I'm glad it was nothing more serious.

M

jman

08-30-2011, 02:57 PM

Why did I even post this on Bogley? This has turned into a big cluster.... of bs quarterbacking about made up info. Top that all off with big egos. :roll:

Jaxx, don't sweat it. It's called the Internet. Internet stories/forums ALWAYS get blown out of proportion.

Thanks for sharing, and don't worry what people on here think of you.

ratagonia

08-30-2011, 03:09 PM

I live 8 hours out of the area (LA). I think express permits is swell-Jest sayin. Wish Kolob was on that list. Tom does that mean that Heaps and Imlay are also not on the express permits list?

Ken

Heaps and Imlay are normal canyons, and on the express permit list. :moses:

accadacca

08-30-2011, 03:11 PM

47541

ratagonia

08-30-2011, 03:29 PM

If I might ask, can you please post the interaction that led you to "feel the tension of the Park Service?" Especially given Jaxx's latest post, I find it hard to believe that, in Tom's words: "This kind of nonsense is what causes land managers and SAR supervisors to view canyoneers with a jaundiced eye." It sounds like the NPS acted without wrath or a jaundiced eye.

Unplanned bivys happen. If the NPS or SAR was really upset about them, we would never be climbing in Yosemite or RMNP, and we'd probably never be canyoneering in Zion or really on any public land. Statements like yours sound like a lot of grandstanding and fear mongering. I know several groups that had unplanned bivys who were contacted by SAR, they all report courteous interactions, not one has mentioned any sort of "tension" or scolding, none led to "unintended consequences", just everyone safe and sound.

Mistakes happen. Most people who have climbed or canyoneered for long enough have had an unplanned bivy or epic at some point. It's not the end of the world. Hell, several people died in a stupid preventable accident in Kolob (leading to expensive settlements) and in the end after the dust settled we can still go there, why would this unplanned bivy have "unintended consequences" concerning "the future of Kolob?"

This is a mountain out of a molehill if I've ever seen one.

I'm really glad everyone made it out ok. Now you have lessons learned and a cool story to tell around the campfire. I'm glad it was nothing more serious.

M

Was just chatting about this non-incident with Zion SAR personnel this morning.

They are very glad that they did not have to perform a full-fledged rescue or body recovery. They are very glad that Jaxx's communications to Dispatch were intelligent, helpful and mature. They do not often get that.

If the Spot message and Jaxx's "All OK" call had come 15 minutes later, they would have had the bird in the air and have already spent $1000, so they are very glad that did not happen.

The point of this conversation is, there were things Party B could have done, should have done, that would have not engaged SAR. Engaging SAR when un-needed is BAD. Even without a bit of a sprained knee, the schedule indicated = bivy, most likely. This SHOULD have been known up front, and accounted for. It was not.

So be a big boy and admit that mistakes were made. Take your well-deserved chastisement like an adult. You think I LIKE playing the Bad Cop? (Well, actually, it has its moments). It is my JOB to play the BAD COP - and it is not for your benefit, Jaxx, as much as it is to everyone in the community (if they wish to take the message to heart) that they have responsibilities to the community, and to the Park, to build reasonable expectations and to communicate these to the permitting system, and to not have SAR called out for them when they don't need it.

Okay?

Tom :moses:

Iceaxe

08-30-2011, 03:58 PM

Jaxx, don't sweat it. It's called the Internet. Internet stories/forums ALWAYS get blown out of proportion.

Thanks for sharing, and don't worry what people on here think of you.

x2

I'm really surprised the NPS got their panties in a wad over this....

I've been around SAR personal when parties are over due in Heaps and Imlay (planned on only taking one day, picked up a permit for one day, but it took two days). And the NPS response to those situations was lets just monitor things and make sure the group didn't take a little longer than expected. I would expect that to be the NPS response to any group doing Kolob and the MIA, particularly with a group that had never done either before.

Mistakes in navigation can be extremely time consuming, and the MIA leads to navigation errors.

YMMV :cool2:

Jaxx

08-30-2011, 04:24 PM

So be a big boy and admit that mistakes were made.
Biggest mistake was posting on Bogley.
Second biggest mistake was calling NPS based on what I was getting from SPOT. Lesson learned- Don't rely on spot at all.

Take your well-deserved chastisement like an adult.
Wow. OK MOM. How long am I grounded for?

You think I LIKE playing the Bad Cop? (Well, actually, it has its moments). It is my JOB to play the BAD COP - and it is not for your benefit, Jaxx, as much as it is to everyone in the community (if they wish to take the message to heart) that they have responsibilities to the community, and to the Park, to build reasonable expectations and to communicate these to the permitting system, and to not have SAR called out for them when they don't need it.

Well you are coming off as an ass in the process. Maybe you should practice interacting with people more. Your social skills are seriously lacking.

nelsonccc

08-30-2011, 04:44 PM

Jaxx, don't sweat it. It's called the Internet. Internet stories/forums ALWAYS get blown out of proportion.

Thanks for sharing, and don't worry what people on here think of you.

EXACTLY. I love how everyone is an expert. I strongly suspect that most parties who do MIA the first time spend the night or exit very late. I know of several parties, myself included, that have started kolob later than planned and exited in the dark. Give me a break, like no one else here has ever started a canyon later than planned. :facepalm1:

Now if Jaxx hadn't been a massive gaping vagina and called the NPS way too early than none of this would have happend. Truly he's the one to blame here.

reflection

08-30-2011, 05:07 PM

OK Mr. Jaxx, I had live phone conversations Sunday mid day with the rangers too. My comments (hopefully) reflect on what others may do, or think about doing in the future. I'm happy you posted what you did, and between the lines, if folk wish to folllow, there is something to learn and understand for those that haven't done the Oaks, Boundary or Kolob and gone out the MIA. The Rangers can have and did have their own opinions re the circumstances on Sunday. There were two groups in there and I urged them to hold off on the chopper (expense), and reminded two rangers (neither of whom were familiar with the Kolob technical, corridor or MIA exit) to hold off, feeling the folk were likely going to show up. I reminded them that lots of people take a bit longer than a single day. Hopefully you and others can distinquish slight critique from hurtful commentary. I compliment you in being able to communicate (on this site) and with the rangers - that's commendable. If some others don't agree with you, then welcome to "that" crowd. And excuse me for "rambling." What you don't know, and what I won't explain on this site is the often heated commentary I heard from two that did the canyon, from two rangers I spoke with and the second hand commentary offered by two other rangers that spoke with two adults that were in the "first" Kolob group. Remember, for a few hours, the concern was a "big deal" and they were talking, pondering, bringing in a chopper. Anyway, the commentary (most of it, that's civil) is interesting, and some folk, may pay attention a bit more, next time, particularly if they are first timers. Also distinguish, folk talking about the situation, vs attacking or criticising the people in question. Personally I believe and accept the circumstance they were in. So that you know, twice I've been in that corridor and because of unseen circumstances, an unplanned bivy occurred. In both cases we had a one day permit. But no family member called, no spots were sent and no park officials got out of their chairs because of us. Anyway, do you get it? I, many of us have been in that circumstance; and in my case, I guess, I'm talking about what I would do differently next time. Excuse me for suggesting that others, your friends, family, should have possibly done something different. But then I wonder, how and when do folk learn, and do the same mistakes happen over and over? Kolob, because of it's history, is not the place, in my view, to make mistakes? Like my friends that went down Saturday, I talked to them about the venture and the probable need for an overnite - and that's what they asked for on the permit. But then oops, somebody in some office typed the wrong entry on the computer to may it look like they were day trippers. Anyway, thanks again for your views and opinions. I've done canyons now going on for a decade and a half; but Sunday was the first time I've spoken with rangers (outside of social settings, trainings and meetings) where they were dialed in to launching a potential search, re my friends. I know/knew enough about the area to give input, but I also heard clearly the concern they had for the folk in the canyon. Impressive that the rangers can get so so dialed up re looking out for folk. OK, I'll stop

ratagonia

08-30-2011, 05:27 PM

I know/knew enough about the area to give input, but I also heard clearly the concern they had for the folk in the canyon. Impressive that the rangers can get so so dialed up re looking out for folk. OK, I'll stop

In almost all other Zion canyons, the clock is not ticking as much as in Kolob. With the flow in Kolob (and Boundary), getting a rope stuck or having a somewhat serious injury somewhere in the rappel section of the canyon could lead to threat to life fairly quickly. Zion SAR would look like poop if this occurred and they did not rally a rescue in a timely manner (waiting for that 24 hour window to time out), and someone died.

A tough choice for Zion SAR, not a decision I envy having the responsibility for.

Tom :moses:

ratagonia

08-30-2011, 05:31 PM

Give me a break, like no one else here has ever started a canyon later than planned. :facepalm1:

Uh, they did not start the canyon 'later than planned'. They started late, but right on schedule, for getting the permit and gear in town that morning.

Now if Jaxx hadn't been a massive gaping vagina and called the NPS way too early than none of this would have happend. Truly he's the one to blame here.

I suspect this is supposed to make sense to SOMEONE, but to me it just looks like random vulgarity. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase this in a way that makes sense to the class. :ne_nau:

Tom :moses:

jhillock

08-30-2011, 05:39 PM

To anyone that went through Kolob last weekend. Was it cold enough to warrant dry suits, or would a full 4 or 5mm wetsuit have sufficed?

Redpb

08-30-2011, 08:09 PM

To anyone that went through Kolob last weekend. Was it cold enough to warrant dry suits, or would a full 4 or 5mm wetsuit have sufficed?

ZAC was suggesting full dry suits or 8mm. I'm so glad I went with the dry suit and I think we all agreed on that. Even with the dry suit and full fleece on underneath there were times, if you were in the water too long, it got pretty cold.

Boots

08-30-2011, 08:20 PM

Uh, they did not start the canyon 'later than planned'. They started late, but right on schedule, for getting the permit and gear in town that morning.

Sorry Tom, you're way off. Nelson is 100% right; sure, maybe our original starting time wasn't as early as your royal highness would have preferred but we most definitely did start even later than we had planned.

spinesnaper

08-30-2011, 08:49 PM

Heaps and Imlay are normal canyons, and on the express permit list. :moses:

Right, right. They are doing what they must to prevent needless death and mayhem do to lack of communication between canyoneers and the Water District.

Ken

flatiron

08-30-2011, 08:54 PM

I strongly suspect that most parties who do MIA the first time spend the night or exit very late.

Your kidding, right??? If that is truly the case then all beta s/be changed to reflect such! Guys, it's not that hard, either physically or route finding. If you lack in either department that's ok. But recognize your limits and adjust accordingly. Don't go off 1/2 cocked and hope for best. 1) Get going wayyy early. Real simple. It's a long day no matter what. 2) Do not practice route finding in MIA. Go out and hike, scramble, get off trail, at safer places so you can learn how to use map, compass, gps, but mostly how to hone and know your abilities. Route finding is a blast, but dang, it is a learned skill. NOT doing either puts OTHER people in possible unnecessary serious situations. There is a difference between needing help or rescue because of accident, and being irresponsible. 3) Or be lead by someone who has done and KNOWS the route.
MIA should take 1 hr. 2 if not in shape. 3-???? if not in shape, can't route find, and plan B is have someone else rescue your a-- (in which case don't do it)

ratagonia

08-30-2011, 10:12 PM

Sorry Tom, you're way off. Nelson is 100% right; sure, maybe our original starting time wasn't as early as your royal highness would have preferred but we most definitely did start even later than we had planned.

I'm sorry. I made the assumption that youse guys could figure out how long it would take you to get saddled up. Guess I was wrong. My apologies.

I have no attachment to when you start. I have attachment to you not getting SAR called out because you're lame.

Tom :moses:

chabidiah

08-31-2011, 07:05 AM

"Mine's bigger"
"No, mine's bigger"

blah blah blah :roll:

This thread has turned to verbal diarrhea, the canyon was great, the water added an interesting element and yes I would suggest a dry-suit. We had no difficulties navigating the MIA, I guess we knew that you had to go up and look for others tracks. I would suggest getting an early start and maybe not to post on Bogley for support. I don't post of here very often and this thread is the reason.

bshwakr

08-31-2011, 07:44 AM

spinesnaper

08-31-2011, 07:47 AM

Seems to me that Kelseyites have now become Bogleyites.

k

Oh boy. This could be a long thread. :popcorn::popcorn:

bshwakr

08-31-2011, 08:02 AM

Sorry Tom, you're way off. Nelson is 100% right; sure, maybe our original starting time wasn't as early as your royal highness would have preferred but we most definitely did start even later than we had planned.

I have a problem with the fact that you even defend your 'schedule'. See Tom, like a few others (who have been doing this for more that 15 years), believes there are some obvious 'knowns' to the sport: one of which is start early in Summer! There are multiple reasons aside from your group not knowing the route. One is we are right in the middle of Monsoon season in a canyon that already contains water (one of my least favorite flash floods was in Kolob). So, I guess Tom's main problem is that he was not understanding of your level of inexperience...he should watch himself there and he might come to realize that as long as there are unwavering enthusiasts like yourselves, there will always be rescues.

k

nelsonccc

08-31-2011, 09:10 AM

Your kidding, right??? If that is truly the case then all beta s/be changed to reflect such! Guys, it's not that hard, either physically or route finding. If you lack in either department that's ok. But recognize your limits and adjust accordingly. Don't go off 1/2 cocked and hope for best. 1) Get going wayyy early. Real simple. It's a long day no matter what. 2) Do not practice route finding in MIA. Go out and hike, scramble, get off trail, at safer places so you can learn how to use map, compass, gps, but mostly how to hone and know your abilities. Route finding is a blast, but dang, it is a learned skill. NOT doing either puts OTHER people in possible unnecessary serious situations. There is a difference between needing help or rescue because of accident, and being irresponsible. 3) Or be lead by someone who has done and KNOWS the route.
MIA should take 1 hr. 2 if not in shape. 3-???? if not in shape, can't route find, and plan B is have someone else rescue your a-- (in which case don't do it)

Oh I get it, everyone is an expert. WOW. I'll say it again, who here hasn't spent an unplanned night in a canyon? Had a later than normal starting time? If these haven't occurred to you then you're not doing that many canyons. IMHO. Shit happens. I'm sure these guys would be the first to say they wish they had gotten an earlier start, life happens, they got a permit, got a late start. It happens. Why crucify them for doing the same thing most of us have done before as well? Lots of rocks being thrown here...

I never said to change the beta. I'm saying that I suspect that most parties doing Kolob and the MIA for the first time take more time than they thought it would. Yes that would typically warrant an early start, but obviously these guys thought that they would be okay. That's their decision. They are a strong and experienced group. I feel for them, they drive all the way down from SLC, get a permit, drysuits, and then get the earliest start they could. I've personally started kolob purposely later so that the hike up the mia and dirt roads occurs in the evening, BUT I've done Kolob multiple times, and the MIA more than a dozen times.

I think if they hadn't had the knee injury than they probably would have just exited in the evening like most people. Seems every year there is a thread about a group spending the night on the MIA. Seems like overkill.

bshwakr

08-31-2011, 09:34 AM

Oh I get it, everyone is an expert. WOW. I'll say it again, who here hasn't spent an unplanned night in a canyon? Had a later than normal starting time? If these haven't occurred to you then you're not doing that many canyons. IMHO. Shit happens. I'm sure these guys would be the first to say they wish they had gotten an earlier start, life happens, they got a permit, got a late start. It happens. Why crucify them for doing the same thing most of us have done before as well? Lots of rocks being thrown here...

I never said to change the beta. I'm saying that I suspect that most parties doing Kolob and the MIA for the first time take more time than they thought it would. Yes that would typically warrant an early start, but obviously these guys thought that they would be okay. That's their decision. They are a strong and experienced group. I feel for them, they drive all the way down from SLC, get a permit, drysuits, and then get the earliest start they could. I've personally started kolob purposely later so that the hike up the mia and dirt roads occurs in the evening, BUT I've done Kolob multiple times, and the MIA more than a dozen times.

I think if they hadn't had the knee injury than they probably would have just exited in the evening like most people. Seems every year there is a thread about a group spending the night on the MIA. Seems like overkill.

'These things' haven't happened to me in a few years and if you want to make this a pissing contest about canyons, I'm fairly comfortable putting my resume against yours . But at least, let me answer the 'Had a later than normal starting time?'. There is a big difference (on a canyon like Kolob) between aiming for a 5:30am start and leaving at 6:00am and aiming for an 'early start' and hitting the trail after 9:00am. I tend to error on the side of meticulous planning and avoid unwavering dedication. Also, in 1993 Kolob taught us to not only evaluate conditions as we receive more information but also that we shouldn't be afraid to reverse course at any time.

CarpeyBiggs

08-31-2011, 09:54 AM

WOW. I'll say it again, who here hasn't spent an unplanned night in a canyon? Had a later than normal starting time?
i haven't ever had to bivy in a canyon. ever. i've had some unplanned situations, but never went outside our contingency plan. best way to not have an epic? start early...

granted, on explorations, this stuff is more likely to happen, and most people i know plan for unexpected bivys when heading into the unknown. but, if this is happening to you with any sort of regularity, especially in canyons with known beta, i'd suggest that you might want to look at why it's happening.

nelsonccc

08-31-2011, 10:44 AM

'These things' haven't happened to me in a few years and if you want to make this a pissing contest about canyons, I'm fairly comfortable putting my resume against yours . But at least, let me answer the 'Had a later than normal starting time?'. There is a big difference (on a canyon like Kolob) between aiming for a 5:30am start and leaving at 6:00am and aiming for an 'early start' and hitting the trail after 9:00am. I tend to error on the side of meticulous planning and avoid unwavering dedication. Also, in 1993 Kolob taught us to not only evaluate conditions as we receive more information but also that we shouldn't be afraid to reverse course at any time.

Agreed. I already said they know they got a late start. I'm sure it would be the first thing they would change. It's hard to make that decision to back out after securing the permit and the gear and arriving at the TH later than they planned. They decided to go anyways. They were prepared to spend the night if it came to that. I think they would have just had a late exit w/o the knee injury. Like I said shit happens. They were prepared for the contingency of coming out late if it happened. Somehow I think there was a mix-up in the spot alerts and how the outside contact handled alerting the authorities.

Originally I was supposed to go with them but had to back out due to work but when I was talking to Boots last night I told him that had I been there we would not have gone in that late and instead done something else up there.

nelsonccc

08-31-2011, 10:58 AM

i haven't ever had to bivy in a canyon. ever. i've had some unplanned situations, but never went outside our contingency plan. best way to not have an epic? start early...

granted, on explorations, this stuff is more likely to happen, and most people i know plan for unexpected bivys when heading into the unknown. but, if this is happening to you with any sort of regularity, especially in canyons with known beta, i'd suggest that you might want to look at why it's happening.

I spent the night in a canyon, once. We were doing the Full Imlay and it started raining about the time we arrived at the crossroads. We waited (2 hours) and watched as the canyon went from dry to 4-5" of running water. We decided to hike out the crossroads. Was a long miserable night with us spending the night at the bus stop at the TH.

I've had a few late starts and some unplanned situations, but like you, we've been prepared and we've always had a contingency plan. I agree that an early start is the BEST way to avoid an epic, I'm just saying that an early start isn't always possible and that there is no need to crucify these guys for doing what most of us have probably done once or twice in our own canyoneering careers.

CarpeyBiggs

08-31-2011, 11:08 AM

i don't see anyone in here getting crucified. i see some people who called SAR for what appeared to be no reason, and a bunch of responses that suggested they made some mistakes, and to take responsibility for their actions. granted, there's been a lack of tact (as always on bogley...) but why is everyone so sensitive? hairpin triggers in here...

i was also there yesterday talking to the rangers about the weekend. they are particularly sensitive about kolob, and mobilizing an SAR for no real reason stresses the resources in the park. and as you can imagine, reflects poorly on the canyoneering community. blah blah blah. none of this comes as a surprise, and the possible consequences shouldn't be surprising either (most likely, continually tough to get permits for kolob, again, no surprise there...)

but you are right, mistakes happen, and could happen to anyone. it just seems this one was entirely preventable.

ewestesen

08-31-2011, 11:21 AM

I suspect this is supposed to make sense to SOMEONE, but to me it just looks like random vulgarity. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase this in a way that makes sense to the class. :ne_nau:

Tom :moses:

I totally agree. Thanks for speaking up on that one Tom.

ratagonia

08-31-2011, 11:23 AM

Oh I get it, everyone is an expert. WOW.

I'll say it again, who here hasn't spent an unplanned night in a canyon?

Actually, I think the point, Christian, is that NOT everyone IS an expert, and they should stop pretending they are. These guys 'pretended' they were experts, took a late start and thought they would make book time. If they would frakkin' admit that they were noobs with unrealistic expectations... :facepalm1: if they had just been realistic about when they were getting out, then, as I said before, we'd be high-fivin' them for a great TR, rather than pointlessly reworking this material. :crazycobasa:

There is expertise to be developed. There is stuff to know. If you regularly spend the night in the canyon, for other than humanitarian reasons, then perhaps there is some stuff, some expertise, that you might want to acquire. Or not, I have no problem with people who are happy being a perpetual noob, as long as they are authentic about it.

It took me three tries to actually find the MIA. First trip with Brian Cabe down main Oak, we DID get a late start, but hustled pretty well, had spotty beta and lost the MIA route early, eventually making the road separately after some horrendous bushwhackery, turned on the afterburners to get to the Lava Point campground just at full dark. Still can't believe our luck in rounding up a ride to our car at that hour... but we did. Good karma that Cabe guy brings to the table. Handy! :cool2:

Even I, master of the un-planned bivy (as a climber), with about 800 canyoneering days under my belt, has spent exactly ONE un-planned night in a canyon.

(For any day out with Kip, I consider a bivy part of the plan. Heck, if I did Keyhole with Kip, I'd bring a headlamp and an emergency blanket).

Tom :moses:

ratagonia

08-31-2011, 11:32 AM

That's their decision.

No man is an island.

You wanna make it a personal decision, rather than a public decision. Fine. Pull out your checkbook (whomever), write a check for $2000.00 to Zion National Park, send it to Cindy Purcell with a note saying "sorry we were such knuckleheads for getting a rescue called out when it was entirely unnecessary".

That would be:

Cindy Purcell
Zion National Park
Springdale UT 84767

Thanks for wanting to make the community whole, for taking responsibility for your knuckleheadedness.

Conflate. Sorry, tried to work conflate in there somewhere, but the opportunity did not present. Or am I conflating two different threads... :facepalm1:

Tom

(Score! got it in in a later post.)

alpine butterfly

08-31-2011, 12:55 PM

I'm sorry. I made the assumption that youse guys could figure out how long it would take you to get saddled up. Guess I was wrong. My apologies.

I have no attachment to when you start. I have attachment to you not getting SAR called out because you're lame.

Tom :moses:

Tom- We are so lucky to have an egotistical know- it- all like you to give us your unsolicited advice. However, considering you were not with us in Kolob canyon I choose to take your random rantings as just that, pathetic ramblings of an old man. Yes, I agree we should have started earlier. I

spinesnaper

08-31-2011, 01:29 PM

:2guns::rope::whoops::wedgie::popcorn::popcorn:

bshwakr

08-31-2011, 01:31 PM

Tom- We are so lucky to have an egotistical know- it- all like you to give us your unsolicited advice. However, considering you were not with us in Kolob canyon I choose to take your random rantings as just that, pathetic ramblings of an old man. Yes, I agree we should have started earlier. I’ll own that put it in my pocket and never make that mistake again. However, we still would have been fine to get in and out of the canyon that same evening, considering we had absolutely NO PROBLEMS with route finding or the MIA, had we not had an unfortunate knee injury. In actuality I am proud of how we dealt with an unseen complication. I’d like you to try dragging a hurt knee through miles of slippery river rock. It takes time and RedPB was a trooper. So regardless of a late start we still would never have made it out of that canyon that evening. It was unfortunate that the rangers had to get involved and they were awesome about the whole situation. This is the first and only time any of us have ever had an unplanned overnight bivvy, we may not have done as many canyons as you, but then again were not 100 years old. I’m so sorry that your majesty has to put up with all the little people out here and guess what??? Were coming back for more. We loved Kolob, it rocked, we can’t wait to do it again. This time we’ll make a few minor changes. Earlier start time and no injuries. Done.

Hmmm...Bogley might not be the best place to post if you are looking to explain dumb decisions and avoid unsolicited advice. The two minor changes, avoid injury and start earlier. One might have to do with group dynamics. Has this member of your group ever been injured with you before? Just something to think about. Oh, throw the 'SPOT' away too.

k

ratagonia

08-31-2011, 01:31 PM

Tom- We are so lucky to have an egotistical know-it-all like you to give us your unsolicited advice.

Thank you for the personal message.

Posted on Bogley = a solicitation of advice. :cool2:

If you READ what I am saying, you will find that I have no problem with your start time. Perhaps you are conflating other people's posts with my own. The ONLY thing I have a problem with is the consequential claim on your permit that YOU guys made that you would get out that evening. An unrealistic expectation. A conspicuously unrealistic expectation, that resulted in SAR being called out, a little bit.

May I suggest NOT focusing on your hurt feelings. Taking responsibility for the small mistake you guys made in filling out your permit, and apologizing for having SAR called out - these small statements are all we are looking for.

And, yes, I HAVE dragged TWO non-functional knees through miles of rocky riverbed, on several occasions. My knees did not work for two years, but they do now, thank you. When you are 100 years old, you too will have a vast depth of life-experiences to draw from. :moses:

I doubt you would have made it out the MIA that evening, but we will never know, will we? Probably not worth debating.

My own only night out in a canyon was partly a result of a broken ankle - not mine, and marginally stable. But the real reason we spent the night out was not the broken ankle, but because we were stupid. :crazy:

Tom :moses: