Improving the Zion permit system

[Iceaxe]

Alright.... I have a thought.... :crazy:

What do you think of the Zion backcountry desk holding a lottery every morning when the backcountry window opens up. Everyone eligible for a backcountry permit draws a number and the lowest number goes to the front of the line and then - next - next - next......

Anyone showing up after the permit line opens goes to the back of the line.

This would eliminate the not-camping at the window and since its a lottery your chance is as good as the next guys.

I've seen this system used at other limited entry venues and I prefer it. Your lottery number is obtained by drawing a number out of a hat or something just as simple.

Thoughts?

[wasatchghost]

All I know about the Zion permit system is what I have read on this forum, so this is just a rookie's opinion. Personally I prefer the current system over this idea, but only because I like the idea of having at least a little control in terms of getting permits (i.e Having the ability to camp out and guarantee myself a permit). I definitely see the pros to the system you suggested, but it occurs to me that people that travel a long way who are completely willing to sleep at the window don't want to leave their one shot at the Subway (or whichever canyon) to chance. Maybe they should switch off for different days of the week :naughty:

[ghawk]

I'd do it. I think the campout method gets a little ridiculous. I do it now to get the permit, but I'd like this method better.

[accadacca]

Dig it.

[ghawk]

I just thought of one problem with this method. you get a big group of 12 who want to do the subway and they all show up and enter the lottery separately. My odds of getting the permit I want just dropped significantly because of one group. you might end up with lots of crowding at the office with groups who want to up their chances. thoughts?

[ewestesen]

Hum... maybe if you enter the lottery and win, you can't have anyone else who entered the lottery be part of your group. That would solve it I think.

[ghawk]

Hum... maybe if you enter the lottery and win, you can't have anyone else who entered the lottery be part of your group. That would solve it I think.

How do you monitor that though?

[hank moon]

Shane, that is a great idea - thanks for putting it out to the Bogles. :)

Fairness and efficiency will be necessary to make it palatable...looking forward to seeing ideas flow out of here.

[ewestesen]

How do you monitor that though?

Ha... yeah... the winners of the lottery have to give the full name of everyone that will be in their group, and then of course those members need to be there so that they can show their ID to prove that they're not just working the system... :facepalm1:

Not real convenient I guess.

[Brian in SLC]

I think the early birds should get the worms. You can sleep when you're dead...

[Iceaxe]

I just thought of one problem with this method. you get a big group of 12 who want to do the subway and they all show up and enter the lottery separately. My odds of getting the permit I want just dropped significantly because of one group.

I have a couple of thoughts on that....

Large drops already have a much better chance of getting a permit than smaller groups because they have more resources to throw at the problem. I've watched as many large groups stand in the permit line in shifts. Its not a big deal to stand in line at midnight if you know your shift is only one hour and than you get to go catch some Z's.

My other thought is with a lottery your mathematical chance of getting the permit you want is the same as everyone else wanting to do that particular canyon on that day, which seems fair enough to me.

Also, in one respect smaller groups (6 or less) have an advantage in that if Subway permits are all taken its easy for them to shift to a second choice that might have a 6 person limit.

The group I see at a disadvantage with the system is families. You have to be 18 or older to get a permit I believe. Which means groups with kids don't get to add the full weight of their numbers into the mix.

[oldno7]

How about a daily auction...

No minimum bid...

[trackrunner]

I just thought of one problem with this method. you get a big group of 12 who want to do the subway and they all show up and enter the lottery separately. My odds of getting the permit I want just dropped significantly because of one group. you might end up with lots of crowding at the office with groups who want to up their chances. thoughts?

same problem happens now with the lottery reservation for subway & mystery

[Deathcricket]

Just trying to work our in my head, how it would go.....

Let's just use Subway to keep it simple. So you have 3 groups of 12 trying to get in the Subway they are all present for the "drawing" so that is 36 people. They draw tickets 1-36. Ticket 1 is pulled and group "A" of 12 people wins it. That just negated 12 tickets in the drawing pool. Then it's just 24 valid of the 36. So he can call 12 numbers that are meaningless. It doesn't seem like that big a deal, but you could potentially have 200 people sitting at the front desk window and when only 1/6th of them are potentially valid it would be very confusing I think.

But really anything is better than what they got now, so why not! :haha:

[Iceaxe]

but you could potentially have 200 people sitting at the front desk window and when only 1/6th of them are potentially valid it would be very confusing I think.

I don't see where that is really any different then what they have now.... you have X number of people vying for Y number of spots. That is never going to change.

Safety has to also be an issue. Standing alone in the dark is not really safe and I'm betting anyone who gets to sleep until 6:30 is going to be a much better risk then someone how has been standing in line since 1 am.

[Deathcricket]

It might be better, assuming we actually had a say and the NPS is even interested in improving the situation. I guess I would need a hard number in my head of how many people would actually show up. I'm just guessing at the 200 number. But how long would it seriously take to hand out tickets to everyone and then call out said numbers when I'm guessing 75% would not even be valid groups? "OK ticket #2 calling ticket 2, no? Ok ticket #3 calling ticket 3 for the line, no? Ok ticket 4" etc.

But even if it takes an hour, it's still an improvement. All we need now is for someone to die, then the family members to sue the NPS because the person was up all night waiting for said permits. That will get er done! :bootyshake:

[Iceaxe]

You really don't even need to call out the numbers.... just tell folks to line up 1 to whatever. If they are not smart enough to do that they don't deserve a permit.

As I said, I've seen this done at other places and it takes about five minutes to pull numbers and get the people lined up... and the line really isn't any longer because not everyone that pulls a number gets in line. Normally a group is after one permit so the member of the group that pulls the smallest number takes their place in line and everyone else stands over in the corner and plays grabass, similar to now.

FWIW: Coyote Butte uses this system (or at least they did, I haven't been there in a couple of years) to distribute their daily walk-ins and it works well IMHO.

[ewestesen]

My other thought is with a lottery your mathematical chance of getting the permit you want is the same as everyone else wanting to do that particular canyon on that day, which seems fair enough to me.


That's true for individuals, not groups. Say there are 8 permits available for the day. I have three people in my group, and another group shows up with eight people. Us three, and the group of eight all put our names in the drawing. The larger group has a much better chance of one of their names being drawn than my smaller group... soooo...yeah.

Maybe there should just be a seniority rule! The longer you've been canyoneering, the more priority you have to get a permit. Of course... I wouldn't ever get a permit then...

[tcott]

I think adding "red permits" to the online system would also be a big improvement. What is the point of printing permits from home if I still have to drive to zion the day before just to get permission to park in the canyon before the shuttles are running? :facepalm1:

[Iceaxe]

That's true for individuals, not groups.

I would also have no problem with groups pulling permits... your group of 4 gets one lottery ticket and if you draw out you can only get a permit for 4, which would stop the cheating of splitting into 2 groups.

But I believe that system might be a little tougher to police and I'm hoping to make life easier on every one....

I'm good with every indivdual gets an even chance or every group gets an even chance...

And speaking of making life easier on everyone.... wouldn't this also be easier on the rangers? There would no longer be a need to continually monitor the permit window and issue tickets for those camping as opposed to those waiting in line. Creating the numbers to drop in the hat means cutting up a preprinted sheet filled with numbers.... that takes a whole 2 minutes.

[ratagonia]

And speaking of making life easier on everyone.... wouldn't this also be easier on the rangers? There would no longer be a need to continually monitor the permit window and issue tickets for those camping as opposed to those waiting in line. Creating the numbers to drop in the hat means cutting up a preprinted sheet filled with numbers.... that takes a whole 2 minutes.

You seem to think they don't like writing tickets and hassling people. :cool2:

T

[Scott P]

Standing alone in the dark is not really safe and I'm betting anyone who gets to sleep until 6:30 is going to be a much better risk then someone how has been standing in line since 1 am.

In a way, it really isn't safe. In summer, a lot of the canyons have hot uphill approaches where a pre-dawn start should be mandatory (at least for the sane). On a hot day, it would be a pain and possibly even dangerous to hold off an approach until the backcountry office opens.

I'm not against the permit system and quotas for places like the Subway, but it seems there is a better way. IMHO, in this day and age, they should just let everyone just purchase and print permits online rather than having to do them in person. Even for the places like the Grand Canyon, they simply mail them to you for most trails and routes and you don't have to show up in person (I think you may still have to show up in person for the Kaibab and Bright Angel Trails?).

[jhillock]

Would it be possible to do the lottery system Ice Axe presented completely online? For example: you must log in online by 8:55p.m. and you fill out the number of people in your group and then you list your first, second, and third, choice of canyon and then at 9p.m. the computer automatically does the lottery and issues the permits for people to print. This would eliminate the 7a.m. ticket window, which should make things more safe and allow people to get earlier starts into canyons. Would something along these lines work?

[mdd]

Personally I think they should do away with walk-in permits completely. Make the entire day's quota reservable online ahead of time. No lines, no scrambling for different plans last minute. You know before you leave your door what your itinerary is.

Or if you really want the walk-ins, I'd do something like this: have a lottery. You join the lottery online 3/7/however many days in advance. One lottery entry costs $5, nonrefundable. At 6am the day before the permit, numbers are drawn and permits issued. If the winners don't claim their permit by, say, 4p that day, they lose their permit and it becomes first-come-first-served at the desk.

Then again, the permit system is just a response to people trashing canyons. If the NPS actually enforced their own rules against group sizes, trashing canyons, etc., instead of "papers please", I'd bet you wouldn't need a permit system or even quotas. But enforcing permits is a lot easier than actually, you know, being accommodating.

M

[Iceaxe]

Would it be possible to do the lottery system Ice Axe presented completely online?

I don't see why this would be a problem. They already do basically this same thing with the Subway and Mystery permits.

I would like to see all on-line permits available 3 to 5 days before the canyon. And I'd like to see all on-line permits not claimed by midnight the day before become available as walk-ins.

[ratagonia]

Then again, the permit system is just a response to people trashing canyons.


An interesting statement, to a student of propaganda. But not based on reality. Where did you come up with this (I ask as a student of propaganda)?

Tom

[mdd]

An interesting statement, to a student of propaganda. But not based on reality. Where did you come up with this (I ask as a student of propaganda)?

Tom

All right, you caught me, I'm prone to hyperbole before I've had my morning coffee. A better term than "trashing" would be, imho, "crowding and impacting."

In my theory there are 4 incidents that led to the permit system:

1. The Kolob disaster, and more specifically the idiot lawyer that convinced the NPS to settle the lawsuit rather than fight it
2. The infamous boy scout/subway jamboree (is this apocryphal? I've heard so many version I'm wondering if it is more legend than reality at this point)
3. Crowding/bottlenecks at rappels in Pine Creek. I remember hearing people complaining about it at the backcountry desk, back when the VC was at it's old location
4. Proliferation of bolts, proliferation of bolt debates, and various impacts such as the Mystery approach gully

Every one of these can be managed without a permit system. The first is easy - personal responsibility, and get a lawyer that actually understands recreation liability precedent. The second by enforcing existing group size limits (and ticketing if need be). The third by treating Pine Creek as a special case via self-limiting management, such as limited parking (and enforcing parking restrictions), ranger or volunteer interaction at the drop-in esp. during inclement weather etc. And the last by signage, volunteer projects, education, permits required for bolt placement/replacement etc.

But noooooooooo. A permit system is cheap and easy (and I would say lazy). It keeps Zion from spending time/money/resource actually accommodating the public. I'm convinced that the current permit system is desired by park management for one overriding reason - it makes canyoneering in Zion so onerous that it drives people away, out of their hair. Think about it - canyoneers are a very small user group in Zion, but we have cost the park big bucks, via SARs, via that Kolob lawsuit settlement. The park "owns" (cough) the resource, they can manage it as they please with or without our support or buy-in. Our community is small and disorganized, and historically we have shown that we really suck at self management. They can close the subway when it is in awesome conditions for those of us experienced in high flow and what can we do? Post angry letters on a forum I guess, and sit at home while the government bans us from land that we own.

I've dealt with permit systems in other parks like RMNP, they are easy, they aren't onerous. RMNP used to require permits to climb the Diamond, after a year or two they realized it was stupid, inconvenient and not worth the hassle, so they stopped that program. Too bad Zion management can't see the light.

I feel sorry for the rank and file rangers in the park, they are great people and I'd best most of them would love to accommodate and serve us better (if not share a rope), but I'm convinced that upper park management would rather see us go away. It's a shame because now canyons just past the park border are getting impacted as people look for the Zion experience without the stupidity. Thanks Zion management.


M

[chabidiah]

I think it would be nice if they could keep the backcountry desk open until 10 on Friday night. We come down from Utah County and have to wait for a few of our usual group who work at the same office to get off work. (since they cant all take of early that leaves us leaving around 5:30). On occasion we make it to the Kolob entrance before they close but we usually don't make it down until a about 9:30ish. As far as the permit system, I feel its flawed but I don't know if this would cure the problem. It would be nice from a planning stand point to be able to secure your permits further in advance so you could make sure to get an early start. I think the problem with this system is that it leaves you screwed if you don't get your permit. If you plan your whole trip around a canyon and then by chance someone else gets your permit then it leaves you scrambling to pick another canyon. At least as it is now you can get into line early and assure your place. And if the people in front of you are getting the same permit you need it gives you some time to decide on another canyon. But it also leaves you starting a canyon on little sleep which could lead to poor decisions.
That or if we get a local to hook us up with a permit...and let us crash on their lawn...

We have watched the little poop movie so we can get permits online but some of them are not available.

Also a side note, if the ZAC could figure a way to rent stuff online and then leave in outside in a locker and email you the combo (which they could change daily) that would eliminate the need to wait until late morning to get a rental.

And since I am on my "cater to me" kick, an escalator at the MIA exit would be much appreciated

[Krrristi]

I would like to see all on-line permits available 3 to 5 days before the canyon. And I'd like to see all on-line permits not claimed by midnight the day before become available as walk-ins.

But aren't the walk-in permits what you're trying to circumnavigate?

I like the idea of the online 'walk-in'

[Iceaxe]

I bumped this thread because it deals with the changes currently under consideration to the Zion Permit system.

More information available in this thread:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?61089


http://bogley.com/forum/files/bump1.jpg

[Branin]

A permit system is cheap and easy (and I would say lazy)

In recent conversations with both Arches NP and a couple of BLM districts (including the district with Birch), I've been led to believe permit systems are neither cheap nor easy, something that is preventing lots of places from considering one. There is no question the system is flawed, but I think that the intention was likely noble, even if the execution has failed in a serious way.

[Iceaxe]

but I think that the intention was likely noble

The intent of the original Zion canyoneering permit was to allow backcountry rangers to interact with canyoneers. It was hoped that such interaction would avoid anther Boy Scouts in Kolob debacle (http://climb-utah.com/Zion/kolob1.htm). Originally the permits were free and picking one up was voluntary, but encouraged.