Orderville Permits

[skiclimb3287]

There is a group of 5 of us heading down to Zion on Friday. We are hoping to do Orderville on Saturday. What is our likelihood of getting a walk up permit? We of course will be competing with the Englestead groups and the Birch Hollow groups who choose to head down. The unfortunate thing is that, as usual, work gets in the way :angryfire: and we won't make it to the BC office on Friday until 6 or 7...right before closing.

Thanks in advance!!!
Ryan

[canyoncaver]

What time will you hit the Kolob Canyons VC? You can try for permits there as well, long before you get to Springdale.

[Deathcricket]

Probably not so good. If you got there in the AM right as they were opening I would say "very good". Can watch it online via a smartphone though and know what's up. Then make other plans when/if it sells out. But check it out, it's even sold out on a Monday, holy sheet!

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcountry.cfm?TripTypeID=3

[jman]

I know of two large groups hitting Zion this weekend. One has about 70 people doing multiple canyons, and the other has about 50. Just get there as early as possible.

And of course, always have a backup canyon. Good luck!

[skiclimb3287]

A group of 70 and a group of 50 :eek2:

Well, that looks like some poor chances... We do currently have a keyhole permit as a backup, but we were hoping to have a full day in a canyon (or at least half of a day!), not just a two hour day...if we realllly take our time. I feel like our options are a bit limited because we are taking a noob who is a bit afraid of heights. I know she does fine at 30-50 foot heights, but am a bit concerned if we approached 100 ft. I don't want to test the waters on her first canyon. That being said, any suggestions of other canyons that fall into this category in the area that I am not thinking of?

Canyoncaver: Thanks for the suggestion. For some reason, I always forget about swinging in there on the way into town. Will definitely do that this time!

I think we will probably hit Kanarra Creek on Sunday pending the forecast.

[Iceaxe]

How about Red Cave as a back-up plan?

I love that slot and think its under-appriciated. It's been about 5 years since my last visit to the slot.

Red Cave Route Description (http://climb-utah.com/Zion/redcave.htm)

Anyhoo.... if I was doing Red Cave with novice I'd just hike up the ATV track and descend Upper Red Cave. I would only visit Lower Red Cave from the bottom. If my group was exerianced I'd do the loop up lower and down upper, its just that getting up lower is not a great route for noob's.

http://climb-utah.com/Zion/Files/redcave01.jpg

[skiclimb3287]

Thanks for the suggestion Shane! Hadn't thought about that one. The bonus there is visiting something that I haven't before :stud:

I may try to skip work on Friday if I can get everything done by then...unlikely, but worth a shot...and get down to the permit office early.

[ratagonia]

Probably not so good. If you got there in the AM right as they were opening I would say "very good". Can watch it online via a smartphone though and know what's up. Then make other plans when/if it sells out. But check it out, it's even sold out on a Monday, holy sheet!

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcountry.cfm?TripTypeID=3

You mean, the RESERVABLE permits are sold out. There are still walk in permits that can be picked up.

BC Desk Main VC closes at 7:30, I think.

http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/backcountry-use-limits.htm

Indicates daily quota in Orderville is 50. Goes bigger in September.

https://zionpermits.nps.gov/backcountry.cfm?TripTypeID=3

Indicates there are 20 walk-in spots available on the 13th.

Mmmm. Competition - it's what made America great!

Tom

[ratagonia]

A group of 70 and a group of 50 :eek2:

Well, that looks like some poor chances... We do currently have a keyhole permit as a backup, but we were hoping to have a full day in a canyon (or at least half of a day!), not just a two hour day...if we realllly take our time. I feel like our options are a bit limited because we are taking a noob who is a bit afraid of heights. I know she does fine at 30-50 foot heights, but am a bit concerned if we approached 100 ft. I don't want to test the waters on her first canyon. That being said, any suggestions of other canyons that fall into this category in the area that I am not thinking of?

Canyoncaver: Thanks for the suggestion. For some reason, I always forget about swinging in there on the way into town. Will definitely do that this time!

I think we will probably hit Kanarra Creek on Sunday pending the forecast.

Pine Creek?

Easy rappels to start, saves the drama for the final one.

T

[skiclimb3287]

Thanks for the suggestion Tom. Would love to take the group through Pine Creek, since I am the only one that has experienced it. My girlfriend has been dying to go through since I got her started in canyoneering. But I am worried about another in the groups potential fear of heights once we start approaching 100 ft. Certainly could lower her if need be, but don't want to push her too far on her first canyon...or maybe not having the option to go anywhere but down is the way to squash that fear :twisted:

Thanks for the suggestions!!!

[The Good Cop]

Fat Man's Misery? No permit required, no big drops, and a really cool & pretty canyon. Only downside is the significant hike out at the end of the day if you have some less than totally energetic participants. I've only done it once but it immediately went to the top of my list for days when I can't get a permit, plus it's good enough to warrant seeking out instead of permit canyons. Enjoy!

[Deathcricket]

You mean, the RESERVABLE permits are sold out. There are still walk in permits that can be picked up.

Uhhh no I mean every permit is gone, walk up or reservable.. On a Monday of all things for crying out loud. So logic is that is a weekday is booked full, the weekend walk ups will most likely be nabbed. I'm saying the chances are very slim if he arrives late.

[ratagonia]

Uhhh no I mean every permit is gone, walk up or reservable.. On a Monday of all things for crying out loud. So logic is that is a weekday is booked full, the weekend walk ups will most likely be nabbed. I'm saying the chances are very slim if he arrives late.

OK, I guess I misunderstood you. 18 available today, a Tuesday. Hit or miss. YMMV. Pray to the goddess Fortuna.

Tom :moses:

[skiclimb3287]

Fat Man's Misery? No permit required, no big drops, and a really cool & pretty canyon. Only downside is the significant hike out at the end of the day if you have some less than totally energetic participants. I've only done it once but it immediately went to the top of my list for days when I can't get a permit, plus it's good enough to warrant seeking out instead of permit canyons. Enjoy!

I forgot that was outside the park boundary...looks to be a triple digit day, the slog out could be interesting. Hmmm... maybe if I pose the options of: we can 1) hike 3 hours in 100 degree heat at the end of the day, or 2) rappel up to 100 ft through a beautiful twisting slot including into something known as the Great Cathedral... I may end up with a choice of a lot of canyons! It is all about the spin. :lol8:


Pray to the goddess Fortuna.

Been doing that and continuing to do so :nod: I figure since the original hope was to pull a Subway permit and I have given up any hope of getting a walk up, Fortuna will be on my side for Orderville? Either way there have been some good suggestions here. It will be a fun trip no matter what we end up with! Of course a TR to follow.

[Iceaxe]

I know of two large groups hitting Zion this weekend. One has about 70 people doing multiple canyons, and the other has about 50.

I'm sure these massive herds will all obey the group limits per day set for each drainage........ :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[jman]

I'm sure these massive herds will all obey the group limits per day set for each drainage........ :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

Most of the trips are reservation permits, however my friend said they are going to get walk-in permits for pinecreek, keyhole, echo, and spry.

And those that don't have permits will be hiking in the main canyon.

[skiclimb3287]

I'm sure these massive herds will all obey the group limits per day set for each drainage........ :roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

Hmmm... I am now picturing a flash mob of sorts taking over a canyon. Wonder how the ranger stationed at the Subway would deal with that :crazy:???


Most of the trips are reservation permits, however my friend said they are going to get walk-in permits for pinecreek, keyhole, echo, and spry.

And those that don't have permits will be hiking in the main canyon.

Sounds like they are leaving Orderville for me then! :bandit:

[Iceaxe]

Most of the trips are reservation permits

Reservation permits are also restricted to the quota per drainage system....... a group can reserve two spots for 10 people each in Pine Creek.... but... they would be over the 12 maximum allowed per day from the same organization in the same drainage.

Just sayin'.... not like I'm the slot canyon cop or anything....

[jman]

Reservation permits are also restricted to the quota per drainage system....... a group can reserve two spots for 10 people each in Pine Creek.... but... they would be over the 12 maximum allowed per day from the same organization in the same drainage.

Just sayin'.... not like I'm the slot canyon cop or anything....

I'm not sure on their logistics, but hopefully they will know. Besides it's not like the rangers will be in those canyons...lol. They ONLY check the subway. I have never seen rangers or been asked for permits other than the subway. I've hear of stories of people being checked at the top of mystery and that's about it.

[ilipichicuma]

I'm not sure on their logistics, but hopefully they will know. Besides it's not like the rangers will be in those canyons...lol. They ONLY check the subway. I have never seen rangers or been asked for permits other than the subway. I've hear of stories of people being checked at the top of mystery and that's about it.

I got checked coming out of Spry a couple weeks ago. He was actually really friendly, too. But granted, I was sitting on the side of the road with all of my gear nearby. If you don't make yourself a likely target, you probably don't have to worry about it.

[ratagonia]

I'm not sure on their logistics, but hopefully they will know. Besides it's not like the rangers will be in those canyons...lol. They ONLY check the subway. I have never seen rangers or been asked for permits other than the subway. I've hear of stories of people being checked at the top of mystery and that's about it.

Uh, well... I'm just lucky I guess. Or I make myself a big target. I've been checked here and there, now and again... Top of Pine Creek a LOT, Subway once in a while, Mystery, Spry, Keyhole, ...

Tom :moses:

[MarmotOnARock]

I'm not sure on their logistics, but hopefully they will know. Besides it's not like the rangers will be in those canyons...lol. They ONLY check the subway. I have never seen rangers or been asked for permits other than the subway. I've hear of stories of people being checked at the top of mystery and that's about it.

Surely you jest. I have encountered rangers in Spry on occasion, and was once stopped by a Protection Ranger when getting to the car at the end of Spry (different trip).

I would imagine they arent in the canyons everyday, but i guarantee they are there in some capacity.

Fun fact, though, I have never been asked for my permit in the Subway...

[skiclimb3287]

I have yet to be asked for my permit in or around any canyon. Now granted, I don't have anywhere near the canyon days in Zion that many of you have (prob. 10-15 including Subway, Keyhole, Pine Creek, Spry to name a few that have been brought up in this thread), but maybe I just have good ranger karma :ne_nau:.

So, if you want that wilderness experience without being questioned by a ranger, give me a holler. I am happy to join in on your trip :cool2:

[Iceaxe]

I don't think I have ever done the Subway without being checked, sometimes at both the top and bottom. I've been checked in Pine Creek many times, checked in keyhole, and at the entrance slide for life into Mystery once.

And if you really want to piss the rangers off climb North Gaurdian (Wildcat Trailhead, same as the Subway) and refuse to show the ranger a permit or tell them where you are going. I know the ranger was positive we were going to poach the Subway and it got kinda ugly. But because we were not canyoneering I'm not required to share my plans with the ranger.... talk about invasion of privacy and destroying my wilderness experiance....

[Scott Card]

But granted, I was sitting on the side of the road with all of my gear nearby. If you don't make yourself a likely target, you probably don't have to worry about it. This is perhaps my biggest beef. YOU ARE NOT A TARGET BECAUSE YOU HAVE A ROPE (or any other gear for that matter). What is it that you have done illegally? What are you about to do illegal that would give them any cause for concern? There is no reasonable suspicion that would give them cause to ask you for your papers. NONE. How would society react if you could get pulled over because you may not have your drivers license on you? Even if you rappel out of a canyon you shouldn't be stopped. Even if you get out of your car at the trailhead of the Subway you shouldn't be stopped. Because you are going to hike or canyoneer does NOT make you a suspected criminal worth of being stopped and required to dig through your pack for your papers. :angryfire:

[skiclimb3287]

Back to the original purpose of the thread for a moment...

Just checked the Backcountry Reservations page and 3 permits for Orderville opened up for Saturday! I nabbed those, now to find 2 more... :mrgreen:

[Scott Card]

Back to the original purpose of the thread for a moment...

Sorry, I have issues....:oops:


:haha:

[skiclimb3287]

Sorry, I have issues....:oops:

No worries...anything to distract me from work :2thumbs:

Pretty sure I learned the "If you want Scott Card involved in a thread, push this button." :haha:

[Deathcricket]

It's Thurs at 9:00 and the walk ups for Friday are gone already. :cry1:

[skiclimb3287]

It's Thurs at 9:00 and the walk ups for Friday are gone already. :cry1:

9:00?! I checked at 7:28 this morning and they were gone then! Also gone at that time was Subway (Of course) and Mystery. Maybe all groups arriving tomorrow will be large and there will be a straggling 2 permits left when we hit the Kolob VC...

[Deathcricket]

Yeah I don't wake up that early sorry bro.

[skiclimb3287]

Well, 9am today and there are 4 walk ups left. Better than yesterday...but not much. Odds that 2 will be left this evening? Slim to none I would guess. Can't hit the road for another few hours. Passing the time at work by obsessively watching the reservations page...:crazy:

[Deathcricket]

10:15, 1 left... :cry1::cry1::cry1:

Check your PM though, I got an idea for ya.