Subway Permits

[UtahAdventureGuide]

Did the Subway on Friday and was asked to show our permit 4 times. Once before we even pulled into the parking lot. Twice inside the canyon, and again when we exited. One of the rangers was on a serious power trip and was very demanding. Do they really issue enough citations to justify the salaries and new SUVs for all these rangers? or is this just another example of government control and waste? I just think this permit system is a complete joke.

[Deathcricket]

What parts of the canyon? Not that I ever poach canyon and want to avoid them. :cool2:

[nat]

Did the Subway on Friday and was asked to show our permit 4 times.

I just think this permit system is a complete joke.

:haha::haha: I suspect that less that 1% of bogleyites would disagree with you.

Nat

[2065toyota]

and if they stop issuing permits will you complain that there are too many people there to enjoy it:cry1:

[Felicia]

:haha::haha: I suspect that less that 1% of bogleyites would disagree with you.

Nat

I disagree. I think that there needs to be a control system in place to limit access to The Subway.

Just imagine what the place would be like if anyone could go anytime. As is, on a nice day, it's hard to take a picture without strangers in the frame.

If you don't like the current permit system, tale a proactive roll in

[Felicia]

...dang iPhone.

Question for the haters of the permit system: how would you manage The Subway if you were NPS???

[Spidey]

...dang iPhone.

Question for the haters of the permit system: how would you manage The Subway if you were NPS???

REALLY???:roflol: That has been debated and covered at nauseum on this forum and every other forum!! Plenty of great ideas out there, but Zion won't hear any of it.

[Felicia]

REALLY???:roflol: That has been debated and covered at nauseum on this forum and every other forum!! Plenty of great ideas out there, but Zion won't hear any of it.

I recall mostly complaining............no solutions. I may have gotten buried in the complaining and missed the solutions. Given that we are going 10 miles an hour in horrible traffic 200 miles from home, I have plenty of time to surf the archives.

[Felicia]

Ok - an hour later and 65 miles closer to home; I've not read any solutions above and beyond "no permits".

[nat]

Ok - an hour later and 65 miles closer to home; I've not read any solutions above and beyond "no permits".

That sounds like a pretty good solution to me. :lol8: Actually, I would be OK with keeping the permits but getting rid of the quotas. I remember when you had to get a permit, but they didn't restrict the numbers, at least for most canyons. No early morning lottery/line up. Sure, occasionally a canyon had a number of people, but it was mostly OK. They don't have quotas for all of the other non-technical day hikes (other than the narrows); I don't see why a hike requiring a rope all of a sudden makes it important to limit the numbers.

Nat

[Felicia]

I made an error last night in my last post: we went 6.5 miles in an hour. I had almost three extra hours to search the Bogely archives.

I see three distinct issues:

- the need for any permit system
- the nuances of physically obtaining a permit utilizing the current system
- the monitoring and enforcement of the current system.

Comments?

[UtahAdventureGuide]

I started canyoneering in Zion long before permits were required, The Subway was one of my first canyons. Being harassed by the backcountry rangers before, during, and after the canyon completely ruins the experience. I was about 20 minutes ahead of the member in our party who was holding the permit but was forced to stop and wait for them to catch up in order to show the permit. When we got out of the canyon we had to show our permit for the 4th time. Do they really need that many backcountry rangers in one canyon to enforce their flawed permit system?

[Osiris]

I actually did the Subway from the top down for the first time on Friday July 29th and didn't see a single ranger that day. While getting the permit was a fairly irritating event I didn't have any other issues than that. As far as the permit is concerned I happened to luck out that I grabbed the two permits available for that day. There were four guys ahead of me who had been there since the day before.

This was the first time I've done the canyon the one thing that bothered be was that the first guy in line was taking 11 permits and was only going to spend time at the bottom of the Subway while myself and numerous others wanted to go top-down. As far as the Subway is concerned I would personally like to see the permits split into different groups, those who want top-down permits and those who want permits for the bottom. Just my opinion though.

Anyways, had an absolute blast and the canyon was beautiful.

Anthony.

[Brian in SLC]

I dislike the permit system (greatly) too. I get that some hikes are best experienced without throngs and throngs of people. But, the Subway is someone self limiting in that it isn't viewable from the shuttle: you have to hike into it a fair ways. Too far for most people.

Having to get a permit but no quota would work for me. Then, at least they'd know how many folks a day really do it. Could also move the trailhead further away (ha ha). Or, do as "someone" suggested and pave the trail in there and let people just mob the place. You want solitude? Go in the off-peak hours: early or late. Otherwise, expect the masses.

Opening Goose Creek up again would help spread people out...

[Krrristi]

You want solitude? Go in the off-peak hours: early or late. Otherwise, expect the masses.

Opening Goose Creek up again would help spread people out...

Yes. Let's let hundreds of tourists traipse through the subway on a daily basis and see how long the pristine environment holds up. And screw research areas, let us trample that canyon too! :roll:

[Brian in SLC]

Meeeow!

We let hundreds of folks traipse through the Subway every other day. Do you really think they'll be much more damage to this "pristine" environment? I don't think the permit system has anything to do with the environment, per se, but, the "VE" in the "VERP".

As far as designating Goose Creek as an RNA...I'd have picked a canyon system that didn't get any traffic, versus a reasonably popular canyon route that was confined to the bottom of the watercourse. You think folks "trample" that environment? Really? Is there an erosion concern at the bottom of the canyon? Social trails? 'Cause, I just don't see that.


There's gobs of "pristine" areas in Zion that are fully off the radar and the permit system.

I roll my eyes at you too!

[dmMatrix]

My only real problem with the permit system is the way you get it. The whole lottery system. I remember my first time in the Subway, I was 12 years old and it was my family of 7 going through. My dad got us up at 4 in the bloody morning so we could get over to the station so that we wouldn't miss it this time. Two weeks before we barely missed getting in by the person in front of us.

Its been several years since I've been so maybe things are a little different but that system is pretty flawed IMO.

Also, I like the fact that it is limited because there are parts where younger participants (like myself at the time) get dominated by people behind you trying to rush through the canyon. Although, it sucks if you don't get a permit. It took quite while to get my whole family out of the canyon that day and several times there were some pretty rude people that just dove into the water next to us to pass us instead of waiting half a minute. If there were double the people I probably would have drowned someone.... or gotten drowned myself :fitz:

[Scott Card]

Timing.... I posted this earlier today on the Canyons Yahoo Group in response to a post that RAM made.


Ahh, yes...Zion Park Rangers (start German accent now) Ranger: "Good Morgan, may I see your papers?" Me: (Utah Accent) "Have I done anything wrong?" Ranger: "No, well, maybe but I need your papers anyvay.... your permit to be on this land." Me: "That would be the land that I own as an American?" Ranger: "You own?....hahahahahahahahahah. Now give me your papers..."

It is so, so very un_American for the rangers to assume that we are law breakers. You see by approaching us, stopping us, demanding our papers, requires a reasonable suspicion that we are violating the law or are about to. At least in my world that is the law. Apparently that is not the case in the kingdom of Zion National Park. Perhaps that is also why they get away with a lottery in Utah too (haha). The permit system and the ranger contact really, really bothers me and significantly impacts MY wilderness experience. Think about how many times we are stopped or delayed just to hike a stinkin' canyon. Stop, pay money or show pass to enter Park. Stop, wait in line and waste a canyoneering day trying to obtain a permit. Stop, show your papers. Stop again and show papers at the exit of the canyon. Is there any wonder why canyons just outside the park are receiving more pressure? All to preserve my wilderness experience. Whatever. I could live with the entrance fee and even a reasonable permit system but quit treating me as a suspected criminal.
As Ram said, anyone listening in Zion????

Scott Card, Spelled S_c_o_t_t C_a_r_d
(Already on "the list" at the Park I am sure.)

(Waydago Ram, you got me all stirred up on Monday morning... ;_) )

[m cabourne]

I have issues with the permit system too....but consider this. We in So Cal have unlimited access to our local canyons. Eaton Canyon (popular for hiking and canyoneering) is the poster child for no regulation.
1. Everything from beer cans to pampers in the streambed.
2. Graffiti and social trails leading to dangerous hiking routes.
3. And, on a more serious note, 7 SAR activities during the past 7 days resulting in 2 deaths in separate incidences.

[Felicia]

I see three distinct issues:

- the need for any permit system


I'm hearing three positions:

1) No permits - what happens if the canyon becomes like a SoCal canyon?

2) No lottery

3) No changes in the current system



- the nuances of physically obtaining a permit utilizing the current system


Let's "assume" that the permit system is here to stay; any suggestions of how to adjust the current system to meet voiced concerns?

ie: If we are "responsible" for our own saftey, why can't we print the permit at the time of reservation? It should be "our responsibility" to use the permit wisely.

If we are going to see a ranger almost "everytime", do they just station one at the trailhead for certain hours? Seems faster than sitting at the backcountry desk?? iPads and radios should aid in field work.





- the monitoring and enforcement of the current system.



Hot Topic with lots of examples everywhere in the archives. But I'm looking for constructive suggestions to the Park? Sensitivity training? etc. How about us and our behaviour?

...............back to work. Thanks for all the responses and comments. :nod:

[Brian in SLC]

Eaton Canyon (popular for hiking and canyoneering) is the poster child for no regulation.

Not sure the Subway and Eaton are comparable. I've never been to Eaton, but, its what, a .4 mile hike to the falls (a main attraction?)? And, given the closures for some of the hiking nearby, it's getting crowds to be sure. Kinda near a large population center, too.

Zion and the Subway? Much longer and harder hike into the Subway. I'm guessing folks also buy a pass to get into the park too.

Zion and the So Cal canyons are very very different, methinks. And, different in terms of the folks that visit, too.

Having hiked/climbed at Ortega Falls in Orange County...yeah, that made me sick. But, I don't see any places, permit or no, in Zion that resembles that kind of mess.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

one of these days I'm going to win the lottery for 12 and then get a walk on permit for the other 12 so I can have the entire canyon to myself. Just like the old days :)

[Krrristi]

We let hundreds of folks traipse through the Subway every other day.
Or like 60. Get rid of the permit system and it will be hundreds.



Do you really think they'll be much more damage to this "pristine" environment? I don't think the permit system has anything to do with the environment, per se, but, the "VE" in the "VERP".

As far as designating Goose Creek as an RNA...I'd have picked a canyon system that didn't get any traffic, versus a reasonably popular canyon route that was confined to the bottom of the watercourse. You think folks "trample" that environment? Really? Is there an erosion concern at the bottom of the canyon? Social trails? 'Cause, I just don't see that.


I'm not familiar with this "VERP" you speak of.
Canyons are really delicate areas because they're isolated. Hundreds of people peeing and crapping in there, tons of sunscreen oiling up the water, rope grooves, trekking pole grooves.... Permit system may not have to do with the environment as far as conservation is concerned, but it definitely is in part to limit human impacts on the canyons.

I don't understand why people get all huffy about the permit system. I don't mind it...it gives the whole experience more significance, because you have to be LUCKY to get to go. It's a National Park, there have to be regulations in place. There are tons of places we can go that don't require permits, so it shouldn't be an enormous deal to have to compete for Zion. I've been able to get every permit I've wanted, even if I have to plan way in advance or be flexible with the dates. Not such a big deal.

Of course, that's just the lotteries and online reservations. The early morning wait in line thing seems silly, but is a good way to give away unclaimed permits. And it sucks when people who aren't going to do the whole canyon suck up 12 of the permits. But I think maybe people don't give NPS enough credit....they know what they're doing, even if it's not perfect, and they're doing it to make access to America's parks fair and enjoyable for everyone.

[ratagonia]

Wow Krrristi - you kinda go at it...

I support a daily quota in the 60-80 range for the Subway, but...

I agree without a daily quota, the canyon would be overused. However, I would like the quota set based on actual science, rather than what we have now, which is a number pulled out of the air. The Park HAS specific encounter rate goals, which may or may not make sense. But there has been little to no study on 1. whether those encounter rate goals are appropriate or 2. what encounter rates the current system generates.

Past the encounter rates, there can be concerns about the Resource exceeding its recoverable use limits... again, not something well-studied.


Or like 60. Get rid of the permit system and it will be hundreds.

I agree. But, ...


I'm not familiar with this "VERP" you speak of.

VERP is the process the National Park Service uses (in theory) for managing backcountry areas.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fplanning.nps.gov%2Fdocument%2Fver phandbook.pdf&ei=TKVBToOKL-PUiALf-YWpBQ&usg=AFQjCNHlvzs85_0h3E0HR2c7BKete9plcg&sig2=yIqW8f8CzDhi92HtsDTm2w



Canyons are really delicate areas because they're isolated. Hundreds of people peeing and crapping in there, tons of sunscreen oiling up the water, rope grooves, trekking pole grooves.... Permit system may not have to do with the environment as far as conservation is concerned, but it definitely is in part to limit human impacts on the canyons.

Uh, in a word, no.

Canyons are robust. They refresh themselves with flash floods, once, twice, ten times a year. In drought less so. But really, the canyons themselves are not very delicate. When we canyoneer, we do so on hard surfaces and continually refreshed surfaces. Away for the canyon, the approach and deproach trails can be a significant problem, and are a problem at the Subway... although, really, the problem is an aesthetic one, not really an environmental one.

People don't poop in canyons, they poop in bags. This is an education problem, not an overuse problem. Peeing in there? Not really a problem. Tons of sunscreen - hyperbole will get you nowhere - it just makes you look ridiculous. (In pristine areas with no spring-fed flow, yes, sunscreen and body oils can have a significant impact on the environment).



I don't understand why people get all huffy about the permit system. I don't mind it...it gives the whole experience more significance, because you have to be LUCKY to get to go. It's a National Park, there have to be regulations in place. There are tons of places we can go that don't require permits, so it shouldn't be an enormous deal to have to compete for Zion. I've been able to get every permit I've wanted, even if I have to plan way in advance or be flexible with the dates. Not such a big deal.

Of course, that's just the lotteries and online reservations. The early morning wait in line thing seems silly, but is a good way to give away unclaimed permits. And it sucks when people who aren't going to do the whole canyon suck up 12 of the permits. But I think maybe people don't give NPS enough credit....they know what they're doing, even if it's not perfect, and they're doing it to make access to America's parks fair and enjoyable for everyone.

Because it is OUR National Park, not their's, and the PURPOSE of the Park is to provide recreation. And because they manage the system poorly, and make no show of caring. Because ...

Sorry, can't get it all in the 10 minutes available. If you don't know, then you haven't been paying attention, or deliberately ignore the ranting common on this forum.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Or like 60. Get rid of the permit system and it will be hundreds.

I guess over a couple days, that 60 is hundreds. Not sure a significant diffference in impact.

The hike itself is limiting and, that it's in a park makes it so too.


I'm not familiar with this "VERP" you speak of.

Get involved with enough land managers and their plans and it becomes important to know.

Vistor Experience Resource Protection. When you're offerring comment or contructive criticism to the park, it helps to put it into language they understand.


But I think maybe people don't give NPS enough credit....they know what they're doing, even if it's not perfect, and they're doing it to make access to America's parks fair and enjoyable for everyone.

They try, I guess. The process can be frustrating.

Cheers.

[Krrristi]

It would be nice for the quota to be based on actual science...that would help appease people. I fully admit I don't know anything about NPS and their management techniques; I'm fairly new to canyoneering and brand new to this forum, and although I have seen a lot of talk about Zion not listening to canyoneers, I kind of agree with Tanya that a lot of it is just "no more permits!" with not many solutions offered, thus why I responded with a "they're trying." But maybe not hard enough, I don't know. I am naive and like to think everyone is doing the best they can and have good intentions. That gets me in trouble a lot. :facepalm1:

Thanks to both of you VERP info...I'll look at that today while I pretend to work, so next time I launch myself into a debate I know what I'm talking about :)

As far as canyon recovery & robustness, I see your point Tom. I'm from Phoenix and I haven't completely replaced the image of rocky, brushy, low-water canyons with smooth sandstone narrows....which is, of course, what this thread is about so I apologize. However, even though slot canyons are repeatedly flushed out, it wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine all the oils and stuff coating the walls or sinking to the bottom of potholes and never getting wiped away. What about the micro organisms in the Subway that give it that cool glow? It is an isolated eco-system and while it is adapted to being flushed with water, it's unfair (poor microbes :cry1: ) to assume that it can handle lots of human traffic without being affected. I do believe there is a difference in impact between 60 & hundreds of people per day...maybe not visible impacts to the land & stone, but to the canyon environment as a whole. But that's the conservation biologist in me, and probably isn't much of a concern for NPS people.

As for pooping in bags....this may be where YOU, Tom, have too much faith in people :) I read a few days ago about a floater left in a pothole... Obviously TP blossoms are more prevalent in dry brushy canyons around Phoenix, but poo is a problem in Zion....isn't that why they began handing out the bags in the first place? And pee...well, again maybe not as much of an issue in canyons that flood repeatedly, but I read this book about Zion canyoneering once which told me to pee only in water, because the smell persists for months on dry land... :) An education issue, sure, but permits help weed out people who don't know how to behave themselves in back country.

[Brian in SLC]

An education issue, sure, but permits help weed out people who don't know how to behave themselves in back country.

My gut tells me that isn't completely true. Folks have different motivations for being in the backcountry in the first place. Some emphasis isn't on "good behavior" relative to the backcountry itself.

Big tent...

[ratagonia]

It would be nice for the quota to be based on actual science...that would help appease people. I fully admit I don't know anything about NPS and their management techniques; I'm fairly new to canyoneering and brand new to this forum, and although I have seen a lot of talk about Zion not listening to canyoneers, I kind of agree with Tanya that a lot of it is just "no more permits!" with not many solutions offered, thus why I responded with a "they're trying." But maybe not hard enough, I don't know. I am naive and like to think everyone is doing the best they can and have good intentions. That gets me in trouble a lot. :facepalm1:

Thanks to both of you VERP info...I'll look at that today while I pretend to work, so next time I launch myself into a debate I know what I'm talking about :)

As far as canyon recovery & robustness, I see your point Tom. I'm from Phoenix and I haven't completely replaced the image of rocky, brushy, low-water canyons with smooth sandstone narrows....which is, of course, what this thread is about so I apologize. However, even though slot canyons are repeatedly flushed out, it wouldn't be a far stretch to imagine all the oils and stuff coating the walls or sinking to the bottom of potholes and never getting wiped away. What about the micro organisms in the Subway that give it that cool glow? It is an isolated eco-system and while it is adapted to being flushed with water, it's unfair (poor microbes :cry1: ) to assume that it can handle lots of human traffic without being affected. I do believe there is a difference in impact between 60 & hundreds of people per day...maybe not visible impacts to the land & stone, but to the canyon environment as a whole. But that's the conservation biologist in me, and probably isn't much of a concern for NPS people.

As for pooping in bags....this may be where YOU, Tom, have too much faith in people :) I read a few days ago about a floater left in a pothole... Obviously TP blossoms are more prevalent in dry brushy canyons around Phoenix, but poo is a problem in Zion....isn't that why they began handing out the bags in the first place? And pee...well, again maybe not as much of an issue in canyons that flood repeatedly, but I read this book about Zion canyoneering once which told me to pee only in water, because the smell persists for months on dry land... :) An education issue, sure, but permits help weed out people who don't know how to behave themselves in back country.

The Subway is springfed, so it is not a matter of flushing, the canon continually flushes. Oils, pee, etc, continually diluted and flushed by the springs.

No, that is a concern of the NPS people. I think there is a limit to how many people can go through the canyon with only acceptable impacts. VERP was developed from the Forest Service program called Limits of Acceptable Change, which I think is a more-honest name for the process. There's a lot to say on this issue - perhaps around a compfire with some of that Captain Morgan Truth Serum would be a better venue than here.

Tom

[Felicia]

Does anyone know if the Park is willing to change the permit process?

Regarding the current permit system that is in place, let's assume that the permit number stays the same at a total of 80 per day, how would you suggest improving the system?

I'd like to get rid of the "line-up at the back-county window" for the non reservable permits. I'd suggest either:

1) run the system similar to the Wave permits via bingo balls the morning, but a day before the trip date. This system would allow people to arrive and get in the drawing within a short time frame. People will know if they have plans for the next day, and will still have energy to enjoy the present day.

2) all permits are through the reservation system. If you do not win, you will know well before your trip. You will know what your plans will be and you can be rested and prepared to enjoy Zion; with/without seeing The Subway.

Comments?

[Bo_Beck]

Did the Subway on Friday and was asked to show our permit 4 times. Once before we even pulled into the parking lot.

Did they pull your vehicle over and how did they check for a permit before you had even pulled into the parking lot?


Twice inside the canyon, and again when we exited. One of the rangers was on a serious power trip and was very demanding.

Power Trip? Explain if you don't mind what constitutes a power trip? Did he (she) threaten you with arrest or what?


Do they really issue enough citations to justify the salaries and new SUVs for all these rangers?

Do you know what pay Law Enforcement Rangers bring home? Have you ever ridden in one of these "new" SUV's?


or is this just another example of government control and waste?

Do you have employment, and or are you self employed? Are there policies that you abide by at your workplace? What do your superiors or customers think when you don't follow one of your own policies?


I just think this permit system is a complete joke.

Many people feel the same. Now that you've voiced your opinion, do you feel warm and fuzzy? I'd like to see changes as well, but for now it's what exists.

[Bo_Beck]

Uh, in a word, no.
People don't poop in canyons, they poop in bags.
If you don't know, then you haven't been paying attention, or deliberately ignore the ranting common on this forum.
Tom :moses:

Uh, in a word, no.
People do POOH in canyons. 2 years ago. My birthday party was in the Subway. I agreed to take nitrile gloves and a garbage bag to do clean-up along the way. Just after the descent on the slabs beyond Russell Gulch, low and behold....a Hanes brief full of caca in the middle of the trail. I was lonely for the rest of the hike on my birthday. Mystery Canyon 3 weeks ago....looking for a possible short haul location for a broken ankle survivor....voila another pile of POOH with TP on top just above the naturally flushed canyon floor. Wanna see the impact Tom? Just step off the trail a few meters sometime and maybe it'll open your eyes? Oh yeah...stepping off the trail (canyon floor) is taboo, but it does happen.

As for the ranting......these people have justification; they've never been part of the problem. Totally "leave no trace" folks and if we all would just live up to their standards and tread in their footsteps these canyons would show no evidence of use at all! It would be nice if all things were perfect, but they're not. Until then.....well it's just not perfect (permit system included).

[airman]

One simple way to improve the permit system would be to make it easier to cancel/reduce the size of a permit reservation. Online would be nice. Or, maybe the Backcountry Desk could start answering the phone. I wonder how many permit reservations are wasted because people simply don't make the effort to cancel/modify their reservation.

Yes, I know you are supposed to call the Backcountry Desk if your group size changes. But do they actually free those slots up for other people to use?

Sometimes I wonder if my efforts to cancel a reservation (leaving a message on the Backcountry Desk answering machine) actually ends up benefitting someone else.

[outdoor love]

I recall the original post saying that he was harassed 4 times. I have experienced the Rangers in the Subway numerous times, Most of the Rangers are licking there chops to write tickets (not all but most in my experience). I do believe that 4 times is an excessive amount. I do not mind getting permits. What I mind is the price of permits. I do not believe that the money I spend for heaps or behunin or many other canyons is ever put into that canyon. Back country money is not put back into the back country and that is where I find it offensive. Rangers you have a great job in a beautiful place. Please treat the people you encounter as customers and with respect. Remember who pays your salary!

[ratagonia]

I recall the original post saying that he was harassed 4 times. I have experienced the Rangers in the Subway numerous times, Most of the Rangers are licking there chops to write tickets (not all but most in my experience). I do believe that 4 times is an excessive amount. I do not mind getting permits. What I mind is the price of permits. I do not believe that the money I spend for heaps or behunin or many other canyons is ever put into that canyon. Back country money is not put back into the back country and that is where I find it offensive. Rangers you have a great job in a beautiful place. Please treat the people you encounter as customers and with respect. Remember who pays your salary!

I LIKE that they don't spend the money in the Wilderness. What you want, stairs down the Mystery approach? etc...

Your permit fee covers some of the costs of manning the permit desk and issuing the permits, period.

Tom :moses:

[chipper.chap]

New to Bogley. Doing the subway hike this Sunday. I was supposed to have two cars and not worry about shuttling, but my buddy had to bail. Is there a forum to see if anyone wants to shuttle to avoid paying for it. Thanks.

On the subject at hand. Permit systme is nessecarry but flawed. The Whitney permit system is ridiculous too. Especially since you need one for the Mountaineers route now. I think internet has allowed more people to discover these places, which is great, but floods them.

[reflection]

History - Perspective.

Left Fork of North Creek (Subway). 30 Years ago one could camp overnite in the place. Remote and not on the radar. Kelsey and his first "canyons" section in his mountaineering book though put Subway on the map, and walla, 300-400 people started showing up on the weekends, bottom up and top down. Mid canyon, at the falls for instance, the place was a veritable circus of people, noise, waste and debris. Some tried to leave no trace, others, out for the adventure or trek, didn't care much for the environment. Some/much of the canyon, took a beating (while some of the canyon, years later, particularly in the watercourse was not that much impacted).

In the decades that folllowed, more guide books, web sites, internet, and digital cameras and "posting", changed the human interest dimension, demand and visitation re the canyon.

The current permit process and some of the park quota numbers, along with "some of the rangers" demeanor and style has always been a concern. (some of the rangers are courteous and personable, while others are militaristic and martinets.)

In my view, some quota for the Left Fork should exist. I like the suggestion of allocating X number of visitors from the top, and Y number from the bottom. And, the park should facilitate an easy process for folk to report changes re numbers or non use of permits - this so others can participate and take slots.

Visitor Experience and Resource Protection - VERP. Ubiquitous and often wobbly views re what this does or doesn't mean to visitors or park staff. Views can be all over the map.

Many of us have been in the Left Fork some 25-30 times in the past two decades.; in the past decade we often try to dodge the final walk/scramble and go for the "3 Russell raps", Das Boot or a "longer upper L Fork". We like it with lotsa water (scares most away) and with as few people as possible. But the place is on the "map" (big time") and so expectations have (should) dramatically changed.

Once upon a time, no sign of a user trail down into Russell Gulch. And the final exit, a bit of an adventure. Folks visiting for the first time though? It's still a beautiful place, and some can enjoy enjoy it, and others can whine about the heat or distance (or their less than leisurly encounter with a "not so warm" ranger).

And how to tweek, adjust or modify the system for the Left Fork or elsewhere? Park Service has to feel pressure and be motivated. Only parties that can often do that are politicians or high in the food chain govt officials. Until then the line "Most like the permit system" is offered by Park officials; And the occasional tawdry demeanor of rangers? Unless there are many witnesses or video, complaints fall on deaf ears; there are exceptions though; some have been reprimanded and/or not re-hired. (And I'll repeat again; there are many fine, courteous and professional people with the park, and of course, there are some daunting "dark angels" too, that are sometimes less than "civil" with those in the canyoneering community.)

[ratagonia]

And how to tweek, adjust or modify the system for the Left Fork or elsewhere? Park Service has to feel pressure and be motivated. Only parties that can often do that are politicians or high in the food chain govt officials. Until then the line "Most like the permit system" is offered by Park officials; And the occasional tawdry demeanor of rangers? Unless there are many witnesses or video, complaints fall on deaf ears; there are exceptions though; some have been reprimanded and/or not re-hired. (And I'll repeat again; there are many fine, courteous and professional people with the park, and of course, there are some daunting "dark angels" too, that are sometimes less than "civil" with those in the canyoneering community.)

I'd like to add another tweak to the complaint -

My problem is not with the individual LE Rangers - I have almost always found them courteous and professional. I have a problem with management decisions, with the job they are being tasked with - make LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTACT with people enjoying the Park. Entirely inappropriate. How about turning this job over to Backcountry Rangers, and having them make a NATIONAL PARK SERVICE FRIENDLY BACKCOUNTRY RANGER contact with people out enjoying the Park. Our Park. That would be appropriate.

The purpose of the permit system is to support an outstanding Wilderness Experience for visitors to THEIR Park. Enforcement actions that conflict with this goal are inappropriate.

Tom

[Felicia]

History - Perspective.



Thank you for your comments. :-)

[canyoncaver]

Because it is OUR National Park, not their's, and the PURPOSE of the Park is to provide recreation.

While I agree that it is the peoples' park, not the rangers', I believe that you are confused on the basic PURPOSE of the park. National Parks are set aside in order to preserve resources first, and also to provide for public enjoyment if that can be done in a way that is consistent with preserving resources. Courts have consistently upheld that when conservation and enjoyment come into conflict, that conservation is to be the predominant concern. You don't have to like this or agree with this, but it is the law as it is currently being interpreted and implemented. So saying that the park's purpose is to provide recreation is not strictly true.

For the record, I support quotas, but I think that all the permits should be free. I also totally agree that being questioned by a cop every time I go canyoneering in Zion seriously detracts from my wilderness experience, and my willingness to support the park. Guilty until proven innocent, it often seems. Show us yer papers....

[ratagonia]

While I agree that it is the peoples' park, not the rangers', I believe that you are confused on the basic PURPOSE of the park. National Parks are set aside in order to preserve resources first, and also to provide for public enjoyment if that can be done in a way that is consistent with preserving resources. Courts have consistently upheld that when conservation and enjoyment come into conflict, that conservation is to be the predominant concern. You don't have to like this or agree with this, but it is the law as it is currently being interpreted and implemented. So saying that the park's purpose is to provide recreation is not strictly true.

For the record, I support quotas, but I think that all the permits should be free. I also totally agree that being questioned by a cop every time I go canyoneering in Zion seriously detracts from my wilderness experience, and my willingness to support the park. Guilty until proven innocent, it often seems. Show us yer papers....

True, oh caver-canyoneer.

The first purpose of the Park Service is to preserve the natural environment for the enjoyment of future generations. The Park takes this mandate seriously, and it has been tested in court, and the Park Service won, ie, the court confirmed that that is the first purpose.



The purposes of ZION are to:
• Preserve the dynamic natural process of canyon formation as an extraordinary example of
canyon erosion.
• Preserve and protect the scenic beauty and unique geologic features: the labyrinth of
remarkable canyons, volcanic phenomena, fossiliferous deposits, brilliantly colored strata,
and rare sedimentation.
• Preserve the archeological features that pertain to the prehistoric races of America and the
ancestral Indian tribes.
• Preserve the entire area intact for the purpose of scientific research and the enjoyment and
enlightenment of the public.
• Provide a variety of opportunities and a range of experiences, from solitude to high use, to
assist visitors in learning about and enjoying park resources without degrading those
resources.
...
The National Park Service Organic Act of 1916 (16 USC 1a-1) creates the NPS, and
establishes its purpose being, to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the
wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means
as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations. It directs the NPS to
promote and regulate the use of the parks by such means and measures as conform to their
fundamental purposes.
...
National Park Service Management Policies, 2006 establishes Servicewide policies for
preservation, management, and use of park resources and facilities, and guidelines and direction
for the management of NPS wilderness. The NPS will manage wilderness areas for the use and
enjoyment of the American people in such manner as will leave them unimpaired for future use
and enjoyment as wilderness. Management will include the protection of these areas, the
preservation of their wilderness character, and the gathering and dissemination of information
regarding their use and enjoyment as wilderness. The public purpose of wilderness in the
national parks includes the preservation of wilderness character and wilderness resources in an
unimpaired condition, as well as for the purposes of recreation, scenic, scientific, education,
conservation, and historical use.


More reading available here:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/ZIONGoodParts.pdf



So saying that the park's purpose is to provide recreation is not strictly true.


I think FactCheck would give me "Mostly True". Incomplete, perhaps misleading, but technically true as stated.

But, mostly the permit system is designed to prevent social crowding. In the Pristine Zone Canyons (Narrows, Subway, Orderville, Pine Creek), it is also there to keep traffic to a level where physical impacts are acceptable. Which is why I think a permit/quota system is appropriate for these specific areas. Not necessarily managed the way it is now.

Perhaps you will disagree, CC, but I think once the system is in place, enthusiastic Law Enforcement of the regulations is inconsistent with the goals of the permit system. If the goals of the system can be met by a sparse application of Law Enforcement resources, then that is what should take place. Yes, some people will cheat, and get away with it. So? B - F - D!

Tom :moses:

[Felicia]

True, oh caver-canyoneer.


Perhaps you will disagree, CC, but I think once the system is in place, enthusiastic Law Enforcement of the regulations is inconsistent with the goals of the permit system. If the goals of the system can be met by a sparse application of Law Enforcement resources, then that is what should take place. Yes, some people will cheat, and get away with it. So? B - F - D!

Tom :moses:

Tom, you are wrong to think that it is NO BFD if some people cheat. If people did not cheat and followed the rules, there would not be as much need for law enforcement.

If people don't like the rules, do something to change them while abiding by them as set - or don't play and go somewhere else.

Maybe law enforcement's behavior is reflecting visitors behavior. ????

[Scott Card]

Ahh yes, the chicken or the egg. I am usually in a good mood until I have to deal with the permit system. The line at the back country desk worsens my mood. Then my mood improves as I drive to the trialhead. Then my mood takes a sharp turn for the worse when I have to deal with showing my papers for having done nothing wrong before, during and/or after I hike.

To state the obvious, pre permit system, there was no cheating. There was nothing to cheat. The system is so burdensome, cumbersome and time consuming, not to mention expensive and dangerous, that it just may promote a wee bit of cheating simply for some to enjoy the park on a limited time schedule and/or budget.

I think there ought to be a reasonable limit of hikers for the Subway, Mystery, Pine Creek and maybe Keyhole. That is it. Perhaps the most ridiculous permit is Das Boot. Followed closely by Englestead and Kolob. Heaps actually may be the most insane permit due to the fact that hardly anyone ever goes in for obvious reasons.

Anyway, cheating or permits, chicken or the egg? This one is easy. Bad permit system first, cheating second. Improve the system to a working system, free up a bunch of canyons, lower fees, give some of the rangers a "nice" pill and tell them not to bother us unless we are suspected of wrong doing, and then you have less cheating.

[Felicia]

When I ski, I'm required to wear a tag on my jacket proving I paid for that day of skiing. Some backpacking trips I've taken required that I have the permit tag tied to a visible area outside my pack.

Would people be willing to 'wear' the permit?

[Scott Card]

A tag huh? Interesting concept. I would prefer a crown or scepter. :lol8:

Seriously, I would prefer a tag to a ranger encounter any day but only in a few canyons. Other canyons are simply not used enough to worry about. BTW, I think the ski pass is for riding the lift. I think if you wanted to hike up the back way and ski down no one would care would they??? I have not heard of the backing tag.

What the tag doesn't fix is the lines, the late starts, and it would screw up the internet permits.

Edit to add:

I also like the fact that a tag is a negotiable instrument. I could scalp my Subway tags and go do Heaps and have dinner paid for!!!! That is IT. I am all for tags. :bandit:

[Scott P]

Kelsey and his first "canyons" section in his mountaineering book though put Subway on the map, and walla, 300-400 people started showing up on the weekends, bottom up and top down.


I would have to somewhat disagree with the above.

The Subway wasn't in the mountaineering book by Kelsey. It first appeared in the 1st edition (1986) Canyon Hiking Guide to the Colorado Plateau, not the mountaineering book. Also, the book wasn't very detailed and didn't even describe the route in from Russell Gulch, which is the standard route. In the early edition, the Subway didn't make it into the best hikes list then and was only briefly mentioned (the route descrition was also inaccurate above the Subway and didn't mention any other falls. It only mentioned Lava Point as another access route and didn't mention ropes).

Kelsey's first CP book may have had some effect, I would say that it was more the Green Book (available just over a year after Kelsey's first one) that really popularized the canyon (it also had colored photos of the Subway). Before that the information was available in the Black Book, but the canyon was seldome trodden until the mid to late 1980's.

Later editions (especially) of Kelsey's books certainly did also add to the popularity of the canyon.

[Iceaxe]

Kelsey and his first "canyons" section in his mountaineering book though put Subway on the map, and walla, 300-400 people started showing up on the weekends, bottom up and top down.

Just so your history is correct..... it was National Geographic that placed the bullseye on The Subway. The place was relatively unknown until National Geographic did a feature on The Subway.

and than you can add the "walla, 300-400 people started showing up on the weekends, bottom up and top down."

It was the Boyscouts of America holding their National Jambore in Southern Utah and running literally hundreds of scouts through The Subway a day that was the final nail in the permit coffin.

[Scott P]

It was the Boyscouts of America holding their National Jambore in Southern Utah and running literally hundreds of scouts through The Subway a day that was the final nail in the permit coffin.


700+ per day went through during the jamboree.

Boy scouts are supposed to follow the LNT regulations (I am a leader), but many of the leaders do not.

Boy scout camps still do lead regular trips through the Subway, but in smaller groups:

http://varsity.sdicbsa.org/PDF/huddle/HighAdvCamps.pdf

[Iceaxe]

Boy scout camps still do lead regular trips through the Subway, but in smaller groups:

http://varsity.sdicbsa.org/PDF/huddle/HighAdvCamps.pdf

Interesting.... :popcorn:


Las Vegas Council
Camp Del Webb High Adventure Base
7220 South Paradise Road
Las Vegas, NV 89119
(702) 968-8138

Del Webb High Adventure Base is located just north of Zion National Park in the mountains of Southern Utah. If your boys (13 years and older) want to rappel, mountain bike, canoe, kayak, swim, fish, hike, mountain man and backpack among the endless forests of pines, firs and aspens, then Del Webb is the place to be. Year round residents of bear, cougar, deer, and elk await to share with you a great mountain top experience. Challenge yourself with a hike through Zion’s Subway.

[MarmotOnARock]

BTW, I think the ski pass is for riding the lift. I think if you wanted to hike up the back way and ski down no one would care would they???

Unfortunately if you read the back of most ski passes, it generally has a stipulation that the ski pass is also your "permit" to ski on the private property and that skiing without a pass would be considered trespassing. Hurray permits <sarcasm>

[Iceaxe]

Unfortunately if you read the back of most ski passes, it generally has a stipulation that the ski pass is also your "permit" to ski on the private property and that skiing without a pass would be considered trespassing. Hurray permits <sarcasm>

Most ski resorts in Utah are on USFS land and the land is open to the public. I don't know about other areas.

[nelsonccc]

Tom, you are wrong to think that it is NO BFD if some people cheat. If people did not cheat and followed the rules, there would not be as much need for law enforcement.

If people don't like the rules, do something to change them while abiding by them as set - or don't play and go somewhere else.

Maybe law enforcement's behavior is reflecting visitors behavior. ????

A certain friend of mine says "Everytime I've poached a canyon, or know someone who has done it, its been directly due to the inability to do it right. Period. We always try to get a permit, but I categorically refuse to wait in a line during prime hiking time just to get a piece of paper. I've never been caught or ran into a ranger before. Luckily the few times I have seen a ranger I've had a permit. I wouldn't recommend poaching the subway or any of the more popular canyons, but I've never pulled a permit for any of the canyons except pine, keyhole, and the subway. I routinely poach Spry, Imlay, Englestead, and many others. Pretty easy to avoid rangers."

I heard an interesting story from a close friend once when they poached dasboot and the subway on a holiday weekend. They could see a ranger checking permits at the top of the hike out so they attempted to reach the rim farther down canyon. According to him the ranger saw them, realized what they were doing, and they spent the next 4 hours dodging from bush to bush to the rim. they then hiked thru the woods on the other side of the road, eventually hitching a ride super late at night and picking up their ride at 2 in the morning. I heard this story from a guy while we were poaching Telephone & Behunin.

[MarmotOnARock]

Most ski resorts in Utah are on USFS land and the land is open to the public. I don't know about other areas.

I just read the back of my PEAKS Pass for Vail and it doesnt mention trespassing, it does say holder assumes all risk of liabaility.
This was back home in the South were I saw the trespassing stuff though, so guess it is different out here. My bad.

[reflection]

Kelsey certainly "teased" the public with initial books and then later in CP editions. Early groups in the Left Fork were mostly a mix of adults/youth, from the Wasatch Front and S Utah. Scouts were just part of the mix. Use to see groups in cowboy boots and hats and ladies in skirts and dresses and gym shoes. Fun watching them rise from the cold pools.

Resource Protection, on paper, is the king when debating land use in the Park. But if Backcountry Rangers are the primary planners, and the one's visiting canyons, then the analysis tilts and favors Visitor Experience, which "they" claim should be limited.

LE - Law Enforcement, in the Park. Some have sunny experiences, others something quite differerent. And as to permits, some like plain vanilla - the permit system is OK - and others ask for analysis, context and nuance - the process should be changed.

Many canyoneers, particularly to Zion, that seldom or rarely visit the place may have little or no contact with LE's or backcountry rangers and sense a neutrality as to the permit system. Those with tenured visits to the canyon, maybe a bit too cynical.

Twitter, Tweety Bird, Tweet (ooops) Tweat. Looking back is one thing. Looking forward and fashioning a workable, flexible and adaptable permit system in Zion, is quite another. Finding the leverage to actually bring about a change? Who is the actual king? The park service or the public stakeholders, activists in the (canyoneering) cause. Rules are made, but amendments and new rules can and do get crafted (in other arenas) and so one hopes that soon, things change, even though optimism is dim.

One easy task would be to displace the LE's from the tech canyon monitoring arena and replace them with non pistol carrying backcountry rangers. Yes, a blessing on the LE's....a that they keep far away from tech canyoneers. And why permits for Keyhole and why not greater user numbers in some of the canyons. Subjective or objective data supports the status quo? And oh, the eye of the beholder...I love the permit system, the permit system is just fine vs. the permit system needs to be adjusted and the nuance and parameters supporting past decisions should be looked at and adjusted.

Code Talkers. The debate is "over" for most staff dealing with the permit process. Just deal with they say...most with a smile....and the cream pie in the face for certain LE's and the game plan to change the permit system....Well, the pie didn't land and nobody (really) wants to "play the game" of further adjusting the process. Mostly smiles these days...we want to be friendly but we don't wish to discuss change. (One day the stakeholders will protest and launch a sit in and revolt - that's all make believe of course, or maybe not?)

[ratagonia]

Tom, you are wrong to think that it is NO BFD if some people cheat. If people did not cheat and followed the rules, there would not be as much need for law enforcement.

If people don't like the rules, do something to change them while abiding by them as set - or don't play and go somewhere else.

Maybe law enforcement's behavior is reflecting visitors behavior. ????

Spoken like a member of the law enforcement community, of which you are.

I can see that point of view, and to some extent agree with it. However, I would be happy with a 95% compliance rate, because what it takes to get to 99% compliance is onerous to the wilderness visitor.

Most people's compliance with the permit system and with society's rules of behaviour in general are not due to law enforcement - it is because they recognize the importance of living in a society of rules, and choose to be a law-abiding citizen. Except speeding.

As Ron Paul says, if heroin was legal, we wouldn't all go out and do heroin the next day, would we?

If there is considerable non-compliance, it would tend to indicate that the hiking public does not consider the rules, or how the permit system is administered, to be fair. We HAVE tried to effect change in both, with perhaps some success. We continue to try. The Park may or may not be interested in what citizens have to say, and they certainly give the impression they do not listen.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Rules are made, but amendments and new rules can and do get crafted (in other arenas) and so one hopes that soon, things change, even though optimism is dim.



Please note, since the original inception of the permit system, there have been significant changes that favor access. The quotas in several canyons have been raised significantly. Change is possible, and the permit/quota system has been evolving.

I just wish the Park would ANNOUNCE some of these changes, so they would get some credit for them.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

When I ski, I'm required to wear a tag on my jacket proving I paid for that day of skiing.

I don't. I only backcountry ski. I've been hassled by ski patrol for being on the perimeter (Alta). Now, backcountry skiing is super popular here and folks probably don't get hassled as much unless someone thinks they're causing a hazard.


Would people be willing to 'wear' the permit?

Geez, sounds like folks who were required to "wear" armbands...ha ha...(what's that syndrome or such that intardweb debates reach a certain point when someone brings up the Nazi's?).

In the Tetons, for example, when you get a backcountry permit, you're required to have it displayed on your pack (if in transit) or tent (if camped). So, with a large daypack and no permit for day use, no permit for climbing anything, what do you think folks do? Yeah, the go up with no permit and if asked, its day use time. Which has lots of folks doing stuff "car-to-car". Maybe a solution to overnight and its realtively heavier toll on the land. Hmmm...

Agree with Scott P that Kelsey didn't popularize the Subway at all. When I did the Russel Gulch version approach in 87 or so, was with the "Green Guide" (Thomas Brereton and James Dunaway, Exploring The Backcountry Of Zion National Park). I used to jog into the Subway all the time in the mid 80's, and, it was never that crowded. I think the reason it sees a bunch of traffic is that its well known, through park service literature, photo galleries, images of the park, postcards, etc etc, for its scenic beauty. Guidebooks are a way of gettin' people there. Its the very publically available images of the Subway that have to account for its popularity, IMHO. "Where is THAT??"

Fun stuff.

[Iceaxe]

Resource Protection, on paper, is the king when debating land use in the Park. But if Backcountry Rangers are the primary planners, and the one's visiting canyons, then the analysis tilts and favors Visitor Experience, which "they" claim should be limited.

Resource planning has nothing to do with what makes sense or what looks good on paper.... Resource planning is done by what is easiest.... and if the park had their way they would like to see 95% of the people herded into 10% of the park, since that makes things relatively easy to manage.

As for the time of cowboy boots and ladies skirts... you are talking looooong ago, when the poulation was small in comparision, and free time for recreation was even smaller. The masses want recreation and they have to go somewhere...

[Brian in SLC]

Tom, you are wrong to think that it is NO BFD if some people cheat. If people did not cheat and followed the rules, there would not be as much need for law enforcement.

If people don't like the rules, do something to change them while abiding by them as set - or don't play and go somewhere else.

Or, break silly rules, suffer the consequences, take it to court, plead your case, develop a public opinion and backlash against the silly rules, lobby your elected officials to eliminate positions, remove funding...

I diagree with a few things out there on public land. I can choose to not abide. And, then I can choose to fight it. Or not.

Had a friend a few years back that wanted to test out the fee demonstration program. Got a ticket. Took it to court. Had some fairly good juice behind him. Gov't didn't show and the case got kicked. Too bad, as, he was really spoilin' for a very public fight.

The good ol' U S of A has a long history of folks not following the rules. All the best to Tim DeChristopher. Ha ha.

[Iceaxe]

Jesus... if I had time to fight all the silly rules I encountered I'd probably have time to stand is a dumbass permit line.... but since my time is limited and valuable to me I seldom do either.... YMMV.

[Krrristi]

So, fwiw....was in the Subway on Friday and didn't see one ranger. None in Pine Creek on Sunday, either. Only saw one all weekend as we were parking to do Keyhole.

[ratagonia]

So, fwiw....was in the Subway on Friday and didn't see one ranger. None in Pine Creek on Sunday, either. Only saw one all weekend as we were parking to do Keyhole.

And without visible enforcement, things were just CHAOS :crazy: right? Libyan rebels shooting up The Subway? :crazy: Somali Pirates carting away artwork from the Cathedral in Pine Creek? :crazy: Investment bankers holding up taxpayers left and right???? :crazy:






(No answer is expected to this obviously over the top post). :cool2:

:moses:

[Scott Card]

So, fwiw....was in the Subway on Friday and didn't see one ranger. None in Pine Creek on Sunday, either. Only saw one all weekend as we were parking to do Keyhole. Reports of rescue to follow.... :haha: Or they were all at training or something. Very unusual to not see a ranger at or in the Subway.

[MrAdam]

I was extremely surprised that we didnt see a ranger in the Subway on Friday. After reading this thread I was expecting to see a ranger at both trailheads at least!

[Krrristi]

And without visible enforcement, things were just CHAOS :crazy: right? Libyan rebels shooting up The Subway? :crazy: :

No. Just this dead mouse, an obvious ecosystemic result of increased human disturbance in The Subway. Just imagine what we'd see if the daily quotas were removed.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2teTYwqpms8/TlMRYr_2UnI/AAAAAAAAAvE/X_-d0Hq-KiY/s288/P8190066.JPG

[Scott Card]

No. Just this dead mouse, an obvious ecosystemic result of increased human disturbance in The Subway. Just imagine what we'd see if the daily quotas were removed.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2teTYwqpms8/TlMRYr_2UnI/AAAAAAAAAvE/X_-d0Hq-KiY/s288/P8190066.JPG No more dead mice because they would have run away from the ghastly people.


So why were you in the Subway killing mice anyway? :haha: