Figure 8 block with lower

[ocanler]

How many of you use a figure 8 for a block with the ability to lower a beginner if he/she get someting jammed in the rappel (hair, fingers, clothing caught in descendeur).
It allows the person at the top to lower a stuck rappeler when things go haywire.
It has the advantage to go on a single rope and yet offer the contingency of lowering the person in trouble. Works for me!
46730

[Canyonbug]

95% of the time! I love the Figure 8 Contingency Block.

[oldno7]

95% of the time! I love the Figure 8 Contingency Block.

X2

Just as easy to rig as a biner block.

[rcwild]

Please note that a releasable figure eight block is still a BLOCK. Take the same precautions you would with a static block to prevent people from rapping on the wrong side of the rope.

[Deathcricket]

No, never even heard of it. But that is an awesome setup and I can see it's usefulness. So it looks like super high friction, if you need to lower someone, do you modify it in some way to make it move or just hold on to it the whole time to keep it from moving? Then the last guy raps double strand or does it lock out??? Sounds like it's actually a block, but I don't get how you then lower someone down if you need to.

[oldno7]

Let me know when you have time and we'll get together and demonstrate.

[ratagonia]

Let me know when you have time and we'll get together and demonstrate.

Thanks Kurty. YES, I think the Cricket of Death is ready to accept some training. A delicate point in a canyoneer's evolution. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. (don't let him know we know)

:moses:

[ratagonia]

X2

Just as easy to rig as a biner block.

A Munter-Mule - just as easy to rig.

Almost any method is easy to rig, once you have it dialed.

Tom

[canyoncaver]

A Munter-Mule - just as easy to rig.

Almost any method is easy to rig, once you have it dialed.

Tom

Too true, but the releasable 8 can be pulled down as-is, with no re-rig required.

[oldno7]

Thanks Kurty. YES, I think the Cricket of Death is ready to accept some training. A delicate point in a canyoneer's evolution. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. (don't let him know we know)

:moses:

I guess I mentioned the price was steep...............FREE

[ratagonia]

Too true, but the releasable 8 can be pulled down as-is, with no re-rig required.

Oh yeah, Re-rig... not very difficult.

T

[optikal]

I've never seen this either and am interested in learning the proper technique. I found this link online, can someone verify if this is the appropriate method? http://canyonquest.com/~steve/cerberuscanyons.com/tech/007_eightrelease/tech_007_release8.html

This obviously shows how to use it as a block but seems like it needs a slight modification for belaying. From the way the OP described it they can rap down blocked, but if something happens, you can then rerig it for lowering?

[ocanler]

Deathcrickett,

Yes, it's a block just like you would have a biner block. Picking up the correct side is not really an issue as the pull side stays at the top in a rope bag to go down with last person. You need this side of the rope at the top if you need to lower somebody.

If you need to lower somebody, just undo the rope from the biner, undo the lower loop on the figure 8, and voila: You have a standard figure 8 set up as a belay to lower the freaked-out person.

Good set up when you have the set-up dialed in, and you are taking beginners. The first one to go down would be more experienced with friction setting and does a fireman belay for the beginners.

The only inconvenience I can see is that it's a bit more bulky that a biner block and maybe more proned to get caught on the pull.

[optikal]

If you need to lower somebody, just undo the rope from the biner, undo the lower loop on the figure 8, and voila: You have a standard figure 8 set up as a belay to lower the freaked-out person.

Good set up when you have the set-up dialed in, and you are taking beginners. The first one to go down would be more experienced with friction setting and does a fireman belay for the beginners.

The only inconvenience I can see is that it's a bit more bulky that a biner block and maybe more proned to get caught on the pull.

Great explanation, thanks. I believe I understand this, quite similar to the munter-mule. Time to go practice in the garage. :)

[UtahAdventureGuide]

I've never used a figure 8 block so I started playing with it tonight and couldn't get it to lock up with the 5mm accessory cord I was using. Is there a minimum diameter rope that should be used. I've never had a problem with a standard biner block slipping.

[ratagonia]

I've never used a figure 8 block so I started playing with it tonight and couldn't get it to lock up with the 5mm accessory cord I was using. Is there a minimum diameter rope that should be used. I've never had a problem with a standard biner block slipping.

Could be. Seems odd though, with all those over and unders, that it would still slip. Might be something to keep an eye out on skinny ropes.

Perhaps. Have we established the minimimum diameter might be 5.0001 mm? :haha:

T :moses:

[oldno7]

Get some real rope that you would use in a canyon. I would hope you would opt for 8-10mmish, ya ain't lowering me on 5mm acc. cord.
Works very well with 8-9mm rope...
So while you might have been only experimenting with skinny cord, try it again with the above criteria. If you can't get it to work, I guess you can join DC for a free instruction.

[oldno7]

A Munter-Mule - just as easy to rig.

Almost any method is easy to rig, once you have it dialed.

Tom

hard to argue with logic, when did you start down this path:lol8::lol8:(just kidding of course)

[spinesnaper]

I've never seen this either and am interested in learning the proper technique. I found this link online, can someone verify if this is the appropriate method? http://canyonquest.com/~steve/cerber..._release8.html

This obviously shows how to use it as a block but seems like it needs a slight modification for belaying. From the way the OP described it they can rap down blocked, but if something happens, you can then rerig it for lowering?

Wow, those figures makes it look so complicated. I would use this method but then I would have to carry a figure of 8 for this purpose. Munter-Mule does the same thing with one less piece of gear to end up at the bottom of some muddy pool of water.:haha:

Ken

[ocanler]

Ken

With 8 or 9mm and your Figure 8, will lock like a charm. It's true: You'll need an extra figure 8.
I have not used a Munter-Mule for lower, so I can't really compare.

[canyoncaver]

Oh yeah, Re-rig... not very difficult.

T

Agreed, again. We have already established that anything is easy to rig once you have it dialed. I was just pointing out to those watching that the munter requires one more rigging step in order to pull down. The releasable 8 does not. It is ready to go.

Whether or not you consider it very difficult to rig each drop twice is beside the point. It is extra work which can eat up time, and adds another chance for error.

[Deathcricket]

Thanks Kurty. YES, I think the Cricket of Death is ready to accept some training. A delicate point in a canyoneer's evolution. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. (don't let him know we know)

:moses:

:naughty:
I'm always ready to accept training and increase my bag of tricks. I still use the stone knot trick you showed me to this day. :2thumbs:

This trick just especially seems nice. I take noobs through canyons all the time and because they don't wear helmets, their hair is always getting stuck in the descender. This seems like a faster rescue that rapping down the other line.


Let me know when you have time and we'll get together and demonstrate.

Thanks bro! I'm almost always free on weekends, let's do a couple canyons sometime. :2thumbs:

[oldno7]

:naughty:
I'm always ready to accept training and increase my bag of tricks. I still use the stone knot trick you showed me to this day. :2thumbs:

This trick just especially seems nice. I take noobs through canyons all the time and because they don't wear helmets, their hair is always getting stuck in the descender. This seems like a faster rescue that rapping down the other line.



Thanks bro! I'm almost always free on weekends, let's do a couple canyons sometime. :2thumbs:

I'll be at Powell again this weekend, the following one might work.
I think we could get a small group to do Benson almost anytime.
Does your wife go, or would she be interested in visiting here in the "hometown"

[ratagonia]

:naughty:
I'm always ready to accept training and increase my bag of tricks. I still use the stone knot trick you showed me to this day. :2thumbs:



I take beginners down canyons all the time too, and NONE of them ever go without a helmet (well, very few exceptions at least). Last noob I took down without a helmet was a certain S. Jackson, friend of Scott Card...

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

I'm always ready to accept training and increase my bag of tricks. I still use the stone knot trick you showed me to this day. :2thumbs:



Try to get Kurty to show you how to convert that Stone Knot into a lower.

Except in Class C, I rarely go direct to a contingency anchor. I think this is responsible because I am well-practiced in the conversion.

Tom

[oldno7]

DC
Just need to know, when we go commando style, should I bring the stainless AR15 or the fully waterproof AA12?:ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

How many of you use a figure 8 for a block with the ability to lower a beginner if he/she get someting jammed in the rappel (hair, fingers, clothing caught in descendeur).

If I'm that concerned about my beginners I prefer a top rope belay.... anyone novice enough to get hair, clothing or fingers caught and not know how to self rescue are novice enough to do other dumb things like let go of the rope with their rappel hand.

If I'm with beginners I want the ability to assume complete control of their actions instantly.... YMMV...

[Deathcricket]

DC
Just need to know, when we go commando style, should I bring the stainless AR15 or the fully waterproof AA12?:ne_nau:

Oh dude, AA12 for sure, haha. yeah my wife goes as long as it isn't a huge trek. So if Benson is under 5ish miles she'll go. Otherwise Just me :)

[oldno7]

Oh dude, AA12 for sure, haha. yeah my wife goes as long as it isn't a huge trek. So if Benson is under 5ish miles she'll go. Otherwise Just me :)

Sounds like she's in.............

[Spidey]

I take beginners down canyons all the time too, and NONE of them ever go without a helmet (well, very few exceptions at least). Last noob I took down without a helmet was a certain S. Jackson, friend of Scott Card...

Tom :moses:

Hey Hey Hey, I resemble that name. If we are keeping score I was far from a noob, just new to you. Plus I was still only 24 and invincible! All right I'm still invincible, but a little smarter. FWIW being a climber the only time I wore a helmet was Aid climbing, and ice climbing, I didn't think canyoneering warranted a helmet. I feel very differently now. I have taken many noobs over the years, and they too all wear helmets. I must throw out a thanks to Tom for being the first person to make me think about wearing a helmet canyoneering, and why.

[Scott Card]

Last noob I took down without a helmet was a certain S. Jackson, friend of Scott Card...

Tom :moses:
:lol8: No not no noob no mo (say that five times fast) ..... if he ever was one. :haha:

The first of several great Freezefests. Good times.

[ratagonia]

Hey Hey Hey, I resemble that name. If we are keeping score I was far from a noob, just new to you. Plus I was still only 24 and invincible! All right I'm still invincible, but a little smarter. FWIW being a climber the only time I wore a helmet was Aid climbing, and ice climbing, I didn't think canyoneering warranted a helmet. I feel very differently now. I have taken many noobs over the years, and they too all wear helmets. I must throw out a thanks to Tom for being the first person to make me think about wearing a helmet canyoneering, and why.

And you were entirely gracious about it. A fun moment.

Steve: "I can just downclimb that..."
Tom: "Yes, you could. IF you were wearing a helmet. But you're not so I guess you will have to rappel."
Steve: "Uh... but... uh... ... ... ... Okay."

:moses:

[spinesnaper]

DC
Just need to know, when we go commando style, should I bring the stainless AR15 or the fully waterproof AA12?:ne_nau:

I believe the Supreme Court now allows us to be properly armed in the National Park. That'll keep law and order in the park. One could have the first armed descent down Heaps. Just use express permits otherwise you will have to park your weapon in the plexiglass box on the doors outside the wilderness desk. Helmet, I don't need no stinking helmet.:crazy::2guns::rifle:

Ken

[moabmatt]

If I'm that concerned about my beginners I prefer a top rope belay.... anyone novice enough to get hair, clothing or fingers caught and not know how to self rescue are novice enough to do other dumb things like let go of the rope with their rappel hand.

If I'm with beginners I want the ability to assume complete control of their actions instantly.... YMMV...

With these folks you shouldn't have a preference, rather you should consider both a top belay and contingency. If someone gets their hair caught, they'll appreciate immediate relief. This is not easy to provide if you simply provide a top belay. It takes time to set up a raise and if the belay rope is running around corners or over long sloping ledges you may not have the oomph to pull up enough to get their weight off the rappel rope easily. With a top belay and contingency, if someone gets hair caught you simply hold the belay rope and release the contingency and lower them a foot or two onto the belay rope. Relief comes to them in just a second or two.

Plus, if they are noobs then they're likely bouncing the hell out of your rope, swaying side to side and otherwise grating your rope over edges. Having a contingency allows you to change the wear points on the rope very easily and quickly between rappellers. This is especially important with large groups.

[ewestesen]

Try to get Kurty to show you how to convert that Stone Knot into a lower.

Except in Class C, I rarely go direct to a contingency anchor. I think this is responsible because I am well-practiced in the conversion.

Tom

I didn't know a stone knot could be quickly converted to a lower- but I did some searching on here and you say [with practice] it can be done in 30 seconds?

I've seen some ZAC guides using the stone knot when guiding, and I just assumed their backup plan was a pickoff...

Maybe I should have searched longer, but is this conversion shown/explained anywhere on here?

If not, I'll wait until I see Rob guiding in Birch when he and I are both stuck behind a group of 30 people, and I'll see if he can show it to me!
If not I'll have to sit down with Rob next time I run into him in Birch and we're both stuck behind a group of 30 people.

[ratagonia]

I didn't know a stone knot could be quickly converted to a lower- but I did some searching on here and you say [with practice] it can be done in 30 seconds?

I've seen some ZAC guides using the stone knot when guiding, and I just assumed their backup plan was a pickoff...

Maybe I should have searched longer, but is this conversion shown/explained anywhere on here?

If not, I'll wait until I see Rob guiding in Birch when he and I are both stuck behind a group of 30 people, and I'll see if he can show it to me!
If not I'll have to sit down with Rob next time I run into him in Birch and we're both stuck behind a group of 30 people.

It's the same conversion as anything else. Helps if the knot is right close to the anchor.

That was Calvin... if you were there last Sunday. Weekends in Birch Hollow are WILD these days. I was there with my class on Monday, and we saw no other people in the canyon.

Pickoff is the LAST tool in the rescue kit. Complex, slow, and places the rescuer at risk. Last Choice.

Tom

[ewestesen]

Huh. Nothing fancy then? You have to get the weight off the knot and then switch it out with something to lower on- I don't think I'm good enough to do that in 30 seconds. I've done it in practice, but not enough. I guess I need to practice it about a hundred times so I can get faster at it.

I did see Calvin on Sunday, which was a lot of fun. Rob is the one I run into most often though. (edit: it is ALSO fun to run into Rob, but as my run-ins with Calvin are more rare I perceive them as more fun)

[unripecoconut]

I’ve noticed that there are a few different ways to do a figure 8 contingency block. The style noted at the beginning of this thread can be found on the canyonquest site (http://canyonquest.com/~steve/cerberuscanyons.com/tech/007_eightrelease/tech_007_release8.html (http://canyonquest.com/%7Esteve/cerberuscanyons.com/tech/007_eightrelease/tech_007_release8.html)). The Petzl canyon guide has a different method that seems better. I had been using another block altogether and am in the process of switching to a modified version of the Petzl block (yet to try it).

Question: These all seem to “hold” a block. Which is the best method?

I may be stating the obvious here – in the photos below, the left side is the rope bag (standing) side of the rope and the right side is the rappelling (working) side.

53343
A) Above is the “canyonquest” version of a figure 8 contingency block and shown on this thread. Notice that the right side is really not much of an X. It goes right out to the rapide.

53342
B) Above is the Petzl version of a figure 8 contingency block. Notice that the right side goes into an X almost immediately and it looks clean. This one seems better since the right side locks down tight leaving the standing rope to be more easily loosened. There is no twist in the last loop. To make this block, you need to take the standing rope and first wrap it behind the left side rope (to create that X) before pushing it through for the final loop.

53341
C) Here is the Petzl version with a twist. This one feels more secure and is what I will likely switch to.

53340
D) I may need to call this What Not To Do. It’s still in testing. The way to make it is to treat the figure 8 as if you were doing a temporary lock off on rappel (rotate the standing rope so that it is between the rappel rope and the figure 8 device). Then you push the rope through, give it a twist and set it. While it’s super easy to remember, it locks down hard and seems tougher to get into lower mode.

NOTE: I use a canyon quickdraw on a block like this. Yes, it is slower and can get left behind if the last person is not paying attention. It is insurance against someone rapping down the wrong side of the rope.

I’d love to understand which version you use and why.

Cheers,

.Miles

[ratagonia]

I think the real question is how easy are they to release under tension and switch to a lower. That is the point, after all.

Tom

[unripecoconut]

I think the real question is how easy are they to release under tension and switch to a lower. That is the point, after all.

Can we assume they are all equally safe blocks? I would think some may be safer on different thicknesses of rope (11mm down to 6mm). Some may transition easier yet not work well with less flexible static ropes. Some may even act differently under heavier loads. I honestly do not know the answer because I have not used any of them long enough to know.

[Results I found with very supple 11mm rope as of 5/1/12]
A) Canyonquest style - locks down and does not release well under load. If the last twist is reversed (counterclockwise) it releases MUCH better
B) Petzl type - releases very well. one last tug is needed to go into full belay.
C) Petzl with clockwise twist - releases well (only slightly harder than B).
D) This Lock actually releases well ONLY if the last twist is not put in. one last tug is needed to go into full belay.

I do not like these types of blocks - releasability and slippage seem to vary depending on the position of the figure 8.

[oldno7]

If you have a tether on your harness, it may help the release at times, also reduces friction in the system for lowering "light" people.

No time to explain now, if you've used an 8 releasable/contingency you already know what I'm talking about, if not, I'll explain later today.

Off into Mystery...........

[nielse2]

I almost always use use the figure 8 block with a totem. I've only had to actually use it once or twice, and it worked great. It's easy and fast, and safe as long as you attach to the correct side of the rope. I always keep one half of the rope up on top so that no-one can get confused and rapell on the wrong strand. Plus it makes it easy to set the rope just above the water on swiming disconects so that people can rappell right off the end and dont have to fumble around while trying to tread water...

[Brian in SLC]

I carry a spare figure eight for watery canyons just for the purpose of a contingency anchor. So fast.

If anyone has Stefan Hofmann's current method in a photo or picture, please post!

http://www.startnext.de/lehrbuch-canyoning

[unripecoconut]

If anyone has Stefan Hofmann's current method in a photo or picture, please post!

It would be great to see the ACA vs. CIC standard for this.

[Summit2Sea]

I love the figure 8 block... I typically use either the biner or figure 8 block unless the condition calls for other rigging method... but when there's a need for a releasable system or when descending Class C canyons, it's pretty much the figure 8, easy to rack on your harness and rigs just as fast as the biner... I typically don't back it up with the carabiner unless someone in the group is uncomfortable not backing it up, I'll typically put two twists in the bight before pulling it over the neck to get the pinch and snug it tight... never had an issues with the rig coming loose; less parts and pieces to pull and possibly snag on things, although, if for some reason you need to break it apart to lower or transition, it could be a bit of a chore, but, there are easy ways to loosen the pinch...

[unripecoconut]

If anyone has Stefan Hofmann's current method in a photo or picture, please post!

Stefan actually showed me a video of his method for his upcoming book and video set. Very cool guy!

He's actually doing something interesting to fund the first release in German and the subsequent releases in English / French. It's called "crowdfunding". Basically, canyoneers anywhere can help fund the project via http://www.startnext.de/en/lehrbuch-canyoning.

His method is nearly identical to the one on the CanyonQuest site: http://canyonquest.com/~steve/cerberuscanyons.com/tech/007_eightrelease/tech_007_release8.html

His implementation looks much cleaner - that said, it's the exact same releasable 8 setup as far as wraps and twists of the rope go. The only difference I could see (after agonizing over the videos / photos) is that he uses a canyon quickdraw (with locking carabiners) as a safety rather than a regular quickdraw. He hangs a Tibloc on the bottom quickdraw carabiner in case a conversion to a raise is needed at some point. Hope that helps.

He did mention that his team is experimenting with an alternative releasable eight that may be published if it turns out to be viable.

So, in conversing with him, I realized my previous post was incorrect and I need to go back and correct the photos. I see now that the post/photo that started this entire thread is not the same as the CanyonQuest / Hofmann method or whatever it should be called. It is very very close except for the direction of the final turn, which makes it harder to release than the method I described above. I have tested it and confirmed.

Cheers,

.Miles

[Iceaxe]

Here is a nice video of a Contingency 8.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fjr-Kwb9_Q

:popcorn:

[bjp]

Here's a look at a few more variations and some of their pluses and minuses:
http://ropewiki.com/index.php/Figure_8_block

[DesertDuke]

Every time I read the posts on this site I start to think I shouldn't even be allowed in canyons anymore. Not only have I never seen this, I just send everyone down with a jumar/quickdraw clipped on their belt and tell them to use it to pull up off the figure 8 and clip off should they get in trouble. Or I have one I could lower with everyone knowing how to use it. But I've only had one problem ever and that was easily corrected so maybe that is why I THINK I am OK with this.

Sheesh i need to hit the books.

[Iceaxe]

99% of the time I just toss my ropes and go. But the stuff is good to know when you need it.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[earwig654]

I love the 8 block and use it when ever I can. i fell like its harder to screw up then a munter-mule, faster to set up, easy to teach, and really nice to use if you werent sure if the rope that you can't see over the edge is actually touching. my fam owns property on the ponderosa, I love doing Jolly Gulch and my rope will barely touch both ends, quite often i will have to lower people 10' (why always 10' I'm not sure) but the 8 is my go to block to lower them the rest of the way :2thumbs:. but the munter mule is always good to know for those situations you prepared for... or should have prepared for.:eek2:

[Sandstone Addiction]

Saw this video featured at the end of the one Iceaxe posted. Is this the correct way to rig the Munter for contingency/lower?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkIHoJBzECs

[Iceaxe]

Is this the correct way to rig the Munter for contingency/lower?

That will work :2thumbs:

Where he ties the overhand backup I've seen some guys clip a biner through the loop in the mule to act as a safety.