Zion - Mystery Canyon

[derekholmes]

Lucky enough to get permits for Mystery Canyon again. This time it seems like the area around top of the water fall is a lot different than before. There is so much sand now that the pools are gone. You used to need a swim to get past the second to last rappel, now its ankle deep. Also there used to be deeper pools. Not bad or good, just fun to see how much it changes naturally.

Also, thanks to whoever put the rock piles at the start of the hike to help show the way. It still can be very easy to go down the wrong canyon.

http://trailtip.com/_Member/DerekHolmes/Trails/Mystery%20Canyon%20%28Zions%20National%20Park%29/53/images/P7230351.JPG
http://trailtip.com/_Member/DerekHolmes/Trails/Mystery%20Canyon%20%28Zions%20National%20Park%29/53/images/P7230360.JPG
http://trailtip.com/_Member/DerekHolmes/Trails/Mystery%20Canyon%20%28Zions%20National%20Park%29/53/images/P7230366.JPG
http://trailtip.com/_Member/DerekHolmes/Trails/Mystery%20Canyon%20%28Zions%20National%20Park%29/53/images/P7230406.JPG
http://trailtip.com/_Member/DerekHolmes/Trails/Mystery%20Canyon%20%28Zions%20National%20Park%29/53/images/P7230416.JPG
http://trailtip.com/_Member/DerekHolmes/Trails/Mystery%20Canyon%20%28Zions%20National%20Park%29/53/images/P7230428.JPG
http://trailtip.com/_Member/DerekHolmes/Trails/Mystery%20Canyon%20%28Zions%20National%20Park%29/53/images/P7230449.JPG

More pictures and gps information at:
http://trailtip.com/Member/DerekHolmes/Trails/Mystery-Canyon-_Zions-National-Park/07-23-2011/chid/53/Gallery.aspx

[ratagonia]

Lucky enough to get permits for Mystery Canyon again.

*phony eastern european accent* This Zions Bank, it has canyons too? *off accent*

:moses:

[ratagonia]

Since you were just hanging out at a bank, and have nothing to live for, there is no reason to wear a helmet, right?

:moses:

[tdoughty]

Donde va "Zions?"

[bshwakr]

Donde va "Zions?"

Perhaps he meant "Zion's" as a possessive noun but forgot the apostrophe. Like "Zion's Mystery" or "Pandora's Box".

k

[Scott Card]

Next to Vells Fargo.

[Deathcricket]

Cool report dude! I have tried to get permits for this multiple times but always fails. Someday! :lol8:

[Scott Card]

Thanks for the update. Love Mystery.

[Scott Card]

Cool report dude! I have tried to get permits for this multiple times but always fails. Someday! :lol8: How did you get on "The List"? :lol8:

[bshwakr]

What's the big deal with Mystery? It's Tom's favorite and everybody loves it. Is it the last rappel? Because, 'Not Imlay' has a nice last rappel....people clap there too.

[Scott Card]

Mystery was my first technical canyon. Great memories there. As for canyons go, yes there are much better canyons in Zion, much better. But let's keep selling Mystery shall we? (hint, hint... )

[Deathcricket]

How did you get on "The List"? :lol8:

:haha::haha: I'm sure I'm on a couple people's "list" :haha::haha:

[oldno7]

:haha::haha: I'm sure I'm on a couple people's "list" :haha::haha:

Your on mine, want to go do Benson Cr. tomorrow?

[Deathcricket]

Your on mine, want to go do Benson Cr. tomorrow?

Haha I wish! Work work..... :cry1:

[Sombeech]

Dang guys, take it easy on the Trip Report poster :haha: It'd be nice if he came back after the Zions and helmet criticism.

But yeah, nice report, Derek. People get a little crazy around these parts when Zion is referred to as Zions. :bandit:

[tdoughty]

but seriously, nice photos dholmes, thanks for posting.

can you tell me why you choose not to wear a brain bucket? Or perhaps I'm assuming it was you too when in fact it's your partners who made that personal decision? Thread drift, but I'm just wondering why someone would make that choice when the chances/possibilities and consequences are so readily apparent......

not that i'm a saint in this area, i've climbed many rock routes without, but have never done a canyon without one, particularly a wet one. although i did find myself one rap into zion's pine (on a keyhole/pine trip) with my helmet still clipped to my harness!!! i'll blame it on my partners rather than my soggy brain....:nono:

[Deathcricket]

but seriously, nice photos dholmes, thanks for posting.

can you tell me why you choose not to wear a brain bucket? Or perhaps I'm assuming it was you too when in fact it's your partners who made that personal decision? Thread drift, but I'm just wondering why someone would make that choice when the chances/possibilities and consequences are so readily apparent......

not that i'm a saint in this area, i've climbed many rock routes without, but have never done a canyon without one, particularly a wet one. although i did find myself one rap into zion's pine (on a keyhole/pine trip) with my helmet still clipped to my harness!!! i'll blame it on my partners rather than my soggy brain....:nono:

You'd be surprised (I think) at the number of people who do canyons without a helmet. And the number of people who avoid posting here because of the amount of criticism and lack of welcome they receive.

[bshwakr]

You'd be surprised (I think) at the number of people who do canyons without a helmet. And the number of people who avoid posting here because of the amount of criticism and lack of welcome they receive.

:cry1:

So they are being criticized for things that might demonstrate their competency? That actually explains a lot.

[derekholmes]

Wow... bring on the criticism i guess! Sorry, I thought this was a hiking forum not a english critique!!!

Mystery is popular... well probably because its hard to get permits for ;) The trick is to have people get there first in line the night before the climb and get the walk in permits. It is a great canyon that isn't too strenuous. I like a lot of the other zionS hikes just as well though. Oh and to open another bag of worms, I rock climb, done plenty of canyons, and don't wear a helmet. Sorry not going to change. Its not a rebelious thing, just honestly don't see a need. Do wear one on motorcycle ;)

[Scott Card]

Oh and to open another bag of worms, I rock climb, done plenty of canyons, and don't wear a helmet. Sorry not going to change. Its not a rebelious thing, just honestly don't see a need. Do wear one on motorcycle ;)
Huh...... well there you have it. :hmm2:

[tdoughty]

Hey derekholmes,
Just funin wit ya on the spelling thing. Know I sure mess up a bunch, specially when posting from my phone! And thanks for the answer to my helmet question. To each his own. Having soloed quite a bit of stuff over the years, I too make judgment calls that others may question, but I also accept full responsibility for my actions.

[Iceaxe]

have nothing to live for, there is no reason to wear a helmet, right?

Its time to take this down a couple notches.... you are starting to remind me of a whore that found religion or a drunk that discovered AA.

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.... YMMV.

:cool2:

[Scott Card]

Ice, I hear what you are saying. Head injuries are different. Getting injured in a canyon, particularly a head injury, affects a whole lot of people in and out of the canyon. Those directly affected include group members, family members, SAR members, medical people, etc. Helmets are the easiest way to prevent a head injury. Yes, I know you have a right to not wear one. I get that. But dang, I have done my share of studying head injuries and I think I would rather be a quadriplegic or have many bones broken than have a serious closed head injury, and injury that is easily mitigated with a brain bucket. I am not sure that strong language in the arena of a head injury is too much. Again, head injuries are a different and insidious beast. (Yes, I chose that word carefully)

[bshwakr]

__

[Iceaxe]

I'm not sayin' helmets are not a great idea and should not be incouraged..... I'm sayin' if your message is not delivered in timely moderation it becomes an annoyance and loses its effectiveness.

Or at least that has been my experience when listening to religious whores and sober alcoholics.... your mileage may vary.... :cool2:

[tdoughty]

So Iceaxe, are you saying that I was immoderate in the presentation of my question and that I'm a drunken religious whore? Jeesh, I don't even know you man

(although i might cop to the drunk part :beer:)

And all I did was ask a question

[Scott Card]

I think that little quote box in Ice's post indicates that he is responding to ratagonia (Tom), not you. :nod:

[Iceaxe]

Ice's post indicates that he is responding to ratagonia (Tom), not you. :nod:

^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^



although i might cop to the drunk part :beer:



46689


:lol8: :lol8: :lol8:

[Felicia]

I have that top.

[tdoughty]

I'd consider my life half full, no matter how ya view this...:naughty:
46690

[flatiron]

Ice, Head injuries are different. Getting injured in a canyon, particularly a head injury, affects a whole lot of people in and out of the canyon. Those directly affected include group members, family members, SAR members, medical people, etc. Helmets are the easiest way to prevent a head injury.

THIS is the essence of all discussion about helmet or no helmet. (or any safe practice) Any injury affects many others, not just YOU. But head injuries are much more serious and extremely difficult to treat on site. It can and would be very traumatic, cause enormous strain and sacrifice on others, and possibly be life threatening for those who could be putting themselves in danger trying to rescue/save you (certainly SAR). To put other people, especially your own family and friends, in this kind of situation, in harm's way, because you don't want to wear a helmet?? What does that say? Tell me? How self centered is that? Do I really get to behave however I want and the hell with how or who it affects?? Doesn't that sound just like a guy named A Ralston that everyone beat up on so much, as they rapped down with no helmet. Wearing a helmet, or any safe practice is NOT JUST ABOUT YOU. IT IS ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE. And you know what, being safe is a communicable positive action you can have with other human beings. One of those things people talk about when discussing what a good guy so and so is: kind, generous, helpful, safe, always put others first, someone you could trust, etc. And try and emulate. Which seems to be better than a selfish negative action. Being safe, wearing a helmet, is a simple act of having courtesy and consideration for others. That's it. You NOT being safe endangers them. Not being safe, is that how you treat friends and family? Sar? Bo Beck? Oh gosh, wait, is this message an annoyance? Really? Just how annoying is it to help rescue someone who did not practice safety? Maybe SAR will be annoyed next time someone calls for help because they weren't being safe. Come on guys, cut it out, shut it down, stop the BS, the excuses. Think about someone else! Oh and PS: a big big big personal bonus is you just might save your own life.

[mattandersao]

I think this is applicable here and on many of the threads in the political section. It is called the backfire affect. Everyone that is ripping apart the non helmet wearer by using logic and fact are in fact only strengthening his resolve not to wear a helmet in the future!


When you read a negative comment, when someone shits on what you love, when your beliefs are challenged, you pore over the data, picking it apart, searching for weakness. The cognitive dissonance locks up the gears of your mind until you deal with it. In the process you form more neural connections, build new memories and put out effort – once you finally move on, your original convictions are stronger than ever...

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/#more-1218

[oldno7]

THIS is the essence of all discussion about helmet or no helmet. (or any safe practice) Any injury affects many others, not just YOU. But head injuries are much more serious and extremely difficult to treat on site. It can and would be very traumatic, cause enormous strain and sacrifice on others, and possibly be life threatening for those who could be putting themselves in danger trying to rescue/save you (certainly SAR). To put other people, especially your own family and friends, in this kind of situation, in harm's way, because you don't want to wear a helmet?? What does that say? Tell me? How self centered is that? Do I really get to behave however I want and the hell with how or who it affects?? Doesn't that sound just like a guy named A Ralston that everyone beat up on so much, as they rapped down with no helmet. Wearing a helmet, or any safe practice is NOT JUST ABOUT YOU. IT IS ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE. And you know what, being safe is a communicable positive action you can have with other human beings. One of those things people talk about when discussing what a good guy so and so is: kind, generous, helpful, safe, always put others first, someone you could trust, etc. And try and emulate. Which seems to be better than a selfish negative action. Being safe, wearing a helmet, is a simple act of having courtesy and consideration for others. That's it. You NOT being safe endangers them. Not being safe, is that how you treat friends and family? Sar? Bo Beck? Oh gosh, wait, is this message an annoyance? Really? Just how annoying is it to help rescue someone who did not practice safety? Maybe SAR will be annoyed next time someone calls for help because they weren't being safe. Come on guys, cut it out, shut it down, stop the BS, the excuses. Think about someone else! Oh and PS: a big big big personal bonus is you just might save your own life.

Good points flatiron........

[torange]

I'd consider my life half full, no matter how ya view this...:naughty:


That is unreal. I have heard of beer goggles but weel, this is something else entirely

[dustinsc]

I think this is applicable here and on many of the threads in the political section. It is called the backfire affect. Everyone that is ripping apart the non helmet wearer by using logic and fact are in fact only strengthening his resolve not to wear a helmet in the future!

That may be true, but I know that some in my group started wearing helmets as a result of being made fun of. People have different motivations, I guess.

[Iceaxe]

That may be true, but I know that some in my group started wearing helmets as a result of being made fun of. People have different motivations, I guess.

Just curious.... who was appling the peer pressure? Other friends from the same group or those posting in forums?

I believe helmets are a good thing.... and I believe encouraging their use through peer pressure is a great tool..... but sometimes I believe folks on the forums go overboard and the important part of the message gets lost in the noise of strangers.

YMMV

[ratagonia]

Just curious.... who was applying the peer pressure? Other friends from the same group or those posting in forums?

I believe helmets are a good thing.... and I believe encouraging their use through peer pressure is a great tool..... but sometimes I believe folks on the forums go overboard and the important part of the message gets lost in the noise of strangers.

YMMV

...and I thought we were in a post-helmet-discussion universe, where there are a few holdouts, and it is only part of the routine to hassle them about a lack of helmets, not to be taken personally. Heck, I don't even need to do it anymore, there are usually plenty of minions around that take care of it before I pipe in. The focus now, post-helmet-discussion, is to find a novel and humorous way of pointing out the the non-helmet wearers are ... not wearing helmets.

God made my head hard, but not hard enough to not break when it cracks into a rock. I have had two friends with serious brain injuries that would have been a non-event with a helmet on. Yeah, steep skiing, no real need for a helmet. Yeah, sports climbing in an established area, no real need for a helmet. And just think, both dads got the honor of being taught to speak english again by their kids... can't put a price on that!

So, Derek - nothing personal. Nice TR. My preference is for people to not post TRs with lots of photos of people without helmets, and thus, like this, they often get turned into "teaching opportunities" - okay, "conflict opportunities". We have lost sight of the value of your original TR. Good. If you want your TR to be valued on its on merits, people in the pictures should have helmets on. It is the community standard in canyoneering.

I have a fantasy scenario: person gets hurt canyoneering. SAR arrives to save the day. SAR sees victim was not wearing a helmet, says "sorry, not my department", then goes home.

In a way, this is actually the scenario you set up by not wearing a helmet. A closed-head injury is time-sensitive, and reported accident to SAR team arrival to trauma center in St George is probably too long a time to save the life anyway. It is reported that the guy who cracked his head in Middle Leprechaun only survived the night because hypothermia prevented the swelling from taking full effect.

So, please, consider my totally asinine for harping on this over and over and over and over again, and for doing so in ways you do not consider funny. Here's an idea - WEAR A FRAKIN HELMET and then you won't have to put up with this BS every time you post a picture. Blame it on me if you wish. Whatever. But mostly, don't crack your head open (or have a closed-head injury). That is what the goal of this project is.

Tom :moses:

[tdoughty]

As I understand it, if you require a weather related rescued from a wall in Yosemite NP and are found to be under-equipped, (down sleeping bag rather than synthetic, for example) then you are subject to fines on top of the rescue costs.

Tom, don't think rescue staff will every refuse to help people, unless their own lives are seriously jeopardized, but additional fines have proven to be an effective way for land managers to "force" people into reducing risks and impacting their limited budgets. Remember when seat belt laws were established and the impact they've had on fatalities over the years?

[ratagonia]

As I understand it, if you require a weather related rescued from a wall in Yosemite NP and are found to be under-equipped, (down sleeping bag rather than synthetic, for example) then you are subject to fines on top of the rescue costs.

Tom, don't think rescue staff will every refuse to help people, unless their own lives are seriously jeopardized, but additional fines have proven to be an effective way for land managers to "force" people into reducing risks and impacting their limited budgets. Remember when seat belt laws were established and the impact they've had on fatalities over the years?

In most rescue jurisdictions, if you are following the rules, the rescue is free. If you are cited for violating the law, then the agency CAN attempt to bill you for the rescue, though most do not try very hard. I hear Summit County is an exception.

It was offered as a "fantasy", then as an "analogy" to what a person does by not wearing a helmet.

Tom

[canyoncaver]

Coming from the caving world, my crew and I consider it unthinkable to not wear a helmet when doing rope work at height. We just have seen too many close calls, short falls, and helmet impacts that would have been brain injuries and fatalities without helmets. Granted, there is usually a little less loose rock in canyons than in caves, but this is not always true and anyway is no excuse. I have only been canyoneering for about 7 years, but I have seen biners dropped from 165 ft, spontaneous rockfall in between my partner and I, and many times have had the damn bighorn sheep try to kill me with rocks from above. To pretend that there is no need for helmets in canyons is assinine and more than a little selfish.

When I come across someone canyoneering without a helmet, I take it personally. That person is endangering me, the rescue teams, his partners, relations with the land managing agency, and my right to access canyons. The short version is that it makes us all look bad, and we all have to answer for your ignorance. You owe it to the community if not to yourself.

Besides, we all have loved ones that depend on us and would have their lives irreparably altered by your head injury or death. Don't we owe it to them if to no one else? My head is worth $90. How about yours?

[ilipichicuma]

My head is worth $90. How about yours?

My helmet was free, but I still value my head more than that. :lol8:

[derekholmes]

I'm sure it all comes from each persons experience. I wouldn't doubt coming from the caving world you would wear a helmet. Rock climbing.. I should. In canyoneering my person experience is that I would talk someone into wearing an ankle brace before a helmet. In zion's with all the river sections I've had to carry a few people out but never because of loose rocks.

But for sure the next pictures I post I'll be looking like the Michelin Man.. Head to toe padding... But then you'll probably read about me dying from heat stroke ;)

[ratagonia]

I'm sure it all comes from each persons experience. I wouldn't doubt coming from the caving world you would wear a helmet. Rock climbing.. I should. In canyoneering my person experience is that I would talk someone into wearing an ankle brace before a helmet. In zion's with all the river sections I've had to carry a few people out but never because of loose rocks.

But for sure the next pictures I post I'll be looking like the Michelin Man.. Head to toe padding... But then you'll probably read about me dying from heat stroke ;)

Thank you, Derek, for, however reluctantly, allowing yourself to be to latest target of the helmet diatribes...

T

[outdoor love]

I do canyons without a helmet and will continue to. Tom whats up with the criticism? It is like when the missionaries show up and tell me there is a church in town. I say I know I make the decision not to go. Free country I think.

[ratagonia]

Ice, I hear what you are saying. Head injuries are different. Getting injured in a canyon, particularly a head injury, affects a whole lot of people in and out of the canyon. Those directly affected include group members, family members, SAR members, medical people, etc. Helmets are the easiest way to prevent a head injury. Yes, I know you have a right to not wear one. I get that. But dang, I have done my share of studying head injuries and I think I would rather be a quadriplegic or have many bones broken than have a serious closed head injury, and injury that is easily mitigated with a brain bucket. I am not sure that strong language in the arena of a head injury is too much. Again, head injuries are a different and insidious beast. (Yes, I chose that word carefully)

Mr. Card said it well. :moses:

[ocanler]

I wouldn't go biking or on a motorcycle without a helmet. I wouldn't go kayaking without a helmet. I never went caving without a helmet, and I would not go in a canyon without a helmet. I might recover from a broken arm, twisted ankle, broken wrist, but I sure want to keep the risk of head trauma to a minimum. I'd rather die than end up being a vegetable.

My 2 cents: Wear a helmet, a small inconvenience and a great insurance.

That being said: Nice pics about Mistery once I got over the skull shots!

[bshwakr]

I do canyons without a helmet and will continue to. Tom whats up with the criticism? It is like when the missionaries show up and tell me there is a church in town. I say I know I make the decision not to go. Free country I think.

Helmets are not an act of faith; their power to save lives is well documented.

k

[canyoncaver]

Helmets are not an act of faith; their power to save lives is well documented.

k

I have seen helmets save the lives of those that I love. That is why I have faith in them.

[MarmotOnARock]

I do canyons without a helmet and will continue to. Tom whats up with the criticism? It is like when the missionaries show up and tell me there is a church in town. I say I know I make the decision not to go. Free country I think.

Might as well say I do canyons on garden hoses using your belt loop on harnesses. The flagarant disregard for yourself, and havoc you could cause on others(in canyon, rescuers, etc) is absolutely hiliarious here.

It's like the article on Reuters a few weeks back, where one state was getting ready to repeal their "helmets not required on motorcycles law", so a bunch of bikers held a protest rally, not wearing helmets, and one subsequently crashed and died, because well he wasnt wearing a helmet.

It's even funnier that you are attacking Tom for giving you crap about this that just further proves your absurdity.

[Brian in SLC]

It's like the article on Reuters a few weeks back, where one state was getting ready to repeal their "helmets not required on motorcycles law", so a bunch of bikers held a protest rally, not wearing helmets, and one subsequently crashed and died, because well he wasnt wearing a helmet.

Reminds me of the folks that protested the ban on base jumping in Yosemite where the person died base jumping El Cap. Kinda puts a damper on the protest.

I've done canyons sans helmet. And, I still occasionally climb without one. But, more and more, I wear one 'cause it makes sense and its easy to do so.

Still, if I forgot my helmet and showed up at a canyon, I'd probably still do it.

[Jaxx]

Nice report. Mystery is a good canyon. I love the second to last rap. I don't know why exactly. Mystery was my second canyon and it really got me hooked on canyoneering. I don't know why there is all the hate on Mystery. Is it the best. Certainly not IMO. But a fun canyon.

Thanks for posting the pics!

[ratagonia]

Reminds me of the folks that protested the ban on base jumping in Yosemite where the person died base jumping El Cap. Kinda puts a damper on the protest.

I've done canyons sans helmet. And, I still occasionally climb without one. But, more and more, I wear one 'cause it makes sense and its easy to do so.

Still, if I forgot my helmet and showed up at a canyon, I'd probably still do it.

Kinda put a damper on the people climbing "Space" too.

I've forgotten my helmet, too. You won't see (recent) pictures of it, though. And I sure do feel naked standing down there at the bottom of the gravity well, all those missiles perched above me...

T

[derekholmes]

I do canyons without a helmet and will continue to. Tom whats up with the criticism? It is like when the missionaries show up and tell me there is a church in town. I say I know I make the decision not to go. Free country I think.

Thanks my thoughts exactly. Well said.

[spinesnaper]

Thanks my thoughts exactly. Well said.

I volunteer once a month at a County Hospital in Los Angeles. I see an extremely large number of individuals after head trauma. They can't hold jobs, they can barely remember what bus brought them to the hospital. Until you have seen the permanent effects of these injuries, it can be difficult to understand how devastating these injuries are. The brain does not take a joke. So free choice? Not on a motorcycle. It is important to understand how one fits into a community and the impact of these preventable disabilities on the credibility of that community. Not that we are going to settle this here. There will be those who wear a helmet and those who don't. We call that natural selection.

Ken:nono:

[Scott Card]

I think, based on this discussion, I will start to ask the many boys who date my daughters, "do you wear a helmet while canyoneering?" The answer will tell me a lot about how they will regard others including my daughter(s). The same could be said of motorcycles, climbing...etc.

Yep, free country with the exception of those dang consequences of violating the law, natural laws included.

[ratagonia]

I think, based on this discussion, I will start to ask the many boys who date my daughters, "do you wear a helmet while canyoneering?" The answer will tell me a lot about how they will regard others including my daughter(s). The same could be said of motorcycles, climbing...etc.

Yep, free country with the exception of those dang consequences of violating the law, natural laws included.

C'mon guyz, you're being rough on Derek. The gal in his icon picture is obviously his sister, and he really has nothing and no one to live for.. :eek2:

Tom

[hank moon]

helmet discussions...

safety people frame it as a safety issue (personal and public)
freedom people frame it as a freedom issue (idealism)

It's hard to argue with the freedom-biased points, but I have yet to hear a good safety argument for not wearing a helmet while canyoneering. Anyone?

[Brian in SLC]

...but I have yet to hear a good safety argument for not wearing a helmet. Anyone?

I have not great arguments.

When its really hot out, I don't want a helmet (or anything) on my head to overheat me.

If I'm in a super narrow confined space, a helmet sometimes takes up too much room. Of course, that's a pretty unlikely situation as I avoid those spaces like the plague.

I do seem to hit my head more on rock when I'm wearing a helmet. Just not used to the space it takes, I suppose.

I wear mine more and more often. But, I still rock climb without it from time to time. Especially on a top rope.

[hank moon]

they are good arguments...for specific circumstances. I also do not wear a helmet 100% of the time for some of the reasons you have listed. i edited my original post to make it canyon-specific.


I have not great arguments.

When its really hot out, I don't want a helmet (or anything) on my head to overheat me.

If I'm in a super narrow confined space, a helmet sometimes takes up too much room. Of course, that's a pretty unlikely situation as I avoid those spaces like the plague.

I do seem to hit my head more on rock when I'm wearing a helmet. Just not used to the space it takes, I suppose.

I wear mine more and more often. But, I still rock climb without it from time to time. Especially on a top rope.

[ratagonia]

helmet discussions...

safety people frame it as a safety issue (personal and public)
freedom people frame it as a freedom issue (idealism)

It's hard to argue with the freedom-based points, but I have yet to hear a good safety argument for not wearing a helmet while canyoneering. Anyone?

I can argue with the freedom-based point... (it's a talent, I know)... :cool2:

The Freedom-based argument only works with a willing suspension of the knowledge that we are all connected together, in some way. So, yes, your actions effect me; but mostly, they effect people closely related to you. That you might want to express your appreciation for by wearing a helmet.

But, yes, it is your choice. I fully support your right to make your decision about what you wear. Even when you make the "wrong" decision. :facepalm1:

Tom :moses:

[homerj]

There will be those who wear a helmet and those who don't. We call that natural selection.

Ken:nono:

Love it! :lol8:

[hank moon]

I can argue with the freedom-based point... (it's a talent, I know)...

The Freedom-based argument only works with a willing suspension of the knowledge that we are all connected together, in some way. So, yes, your actions effect me; but mostly, they effect people closely related to you. That you might want to express your appreciation for by wearing a helmet.


Can it also work even with the knowledge that we are all connected? That is, does true freedom mean that can one "be free" to make fully conscious choices that may bring suffering to others? Or, is that kind of freedom rooted in denial? Or??

And, 'cuz I know you'd like to know: "your actions affect me" (vs. "effect me") is the correct spelling. :)

[oldno7]

And, 'cuz I know you'd like to know: "your actions affect me" (vs. "effect me") is the correct spelling. :)

Good to see someone looking after the emperor..:cheers::lol8:

[ratagonia]

And, 'cuz I know you'd like to know: "your actions affect me" (vs. "effect me") is the correct spelling. :)

Oh.. :facepalm1: ZING! :facepalm1:

[bshwakr]

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[ratagonia]

Funny though, I've had several puncture wounds on the head from branches and logs when I was wearing a hat instead of a helmet.

I wear mine sometimes for bushwhacking. Makes it easier to push through branches.

The Bshwakr, however, takes bushwhacking to a whole new level, and a full-face might be a good idea...

:moses:

[bshwakr]

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