Increasing friction on an ATC

[Deathcricket]

Can anyone point me to a reference on increasing friction for an ATC? I'm looking for a super sloth mode. I noticed with this 8.3 rope on single strand, even an extra beener on the leg strap isn't enough sometimes. I use a Piranna and frigging love it, but I notice the noobies always bring an ATC and wanna help them out. So think about a 220 pound guy wearing a 40 pound pack doing a 170 foot mostly free rap. How would you set it up? :stud:

[trackrunner]

search the forms it has been discussed on here. a few different ways. My preference single strand atc on a thin rope would be in this order: your first method should be an extra binner under the device, second option could be the redirect off a binner on a leg loop. third option could be the rappel z redirect off a binner above the device. needs to be small enough that the belay device will not slip through.

could make a case because of the risk of sheath slippage to always use an extra binner under the atc with SRT (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?34665-ATC-a-problem).

could also use two belay/rappel devices, or the ATC and a binner with a munter hitch

[Deathcricket]

Thanks man. I know it's been discussed but I can't find any documentation, like a picture would be nice. I always thought the "biner on the leg strap" would be enough but I'm looking for something a bit more. That link you pointed me to really doesn't have any info either. I'll keep searching though I know it's here somewhere, lol.

[spinesnaper]

Here is a url for an article describing Z rig for the ATC: http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z.jpg

http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z_diagram.jpg

Ken

[trackrunner]

That link you pointed me to really doesn't have any info either. I'll keep searching though I know it's here somewhere,

doesn't have info? it's the supporting documentation about sheath slippage (that's what she said) claim and why an extra binner under an ATC may reduce the risk.

[Deathcricket]

Here is a url for an article describing Z rig for the ATC: http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z.jpg

http://www.outdoorstogether.com/canyoneering/images/rappel_z_diagram.jpg

Ken

Ahhh that is it!!! I knew it was on here somewhere but could not recall where I had seen it, thanks bro!

[spinesnaper]

No problem.

[hank moon]

Can anyone point me to a reference on increasing friction for an ATC? I'm looking for a super sloth mode. I noticed with this 8.3 rope on single strand, even an extra beener on the leg strap isn't enough sometimes. I use a Piranna and frigging love it, but I notice the noobies always bring an ATC and wanna help them out. So think about a 220 pound guy wearing a 40 pound pack doing a 170 foot mostly free rap. How would you set it up? :stud:

Ways to increase ATC friction w/o using a redirect as shown in the Z-rig diagram above.

1. Use two carabiners instead of one to attach ATC to harness. The rope is captured by two identical carabiners, both of which are attached to the harness strong point/belay loop. This gives a ton of friction, senor sloth.

2. Extend the device (http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/tech_tips_ropework_2_-_relaxed-fit_rapping/) and note that in this drawing, the "overhand knot" looks like a slip knot. Experiment with extension length to suit your body type/height. The device should not be extended out of reach. An earlier thread with info on this: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?40244-Using-the-Piranha/page2

Comment on the Z-rig diagram (shown earlier in this thread):

Holding the rope above the device is (generally) wasted energy and other negative stuff. It is (generally) better to have both hands on the brake strand to share the load. More on this in the earlier thread linked above.

[ratagonia]

Ways to increase ATC friction w/o using a redirect as shown in the Z-rig diagram above.

1. Use two carabiners instead of one to attach ATC to harness. The rope is captured by two identical carabiners, both of which are attached to the harness strong point/belay loop. This gives a ton of friction, senor sloth.


Hi Hank!

Also helps if your "two carabiners" are fat carabiners, like a Petzl Attache or William. Skinny carabiners will produce less friction.

Three carabiners can also be used. Three fat carabiners might be too much, how about three not so fat carabiners?

T :moses:

[hank moon]

Hi Hank!

Also helps if your "two carabiners" are fat carabiners, like a Petzl Attache or William. Skinny carabiners will produce less friction.

Three carabiners can also be used. Three fat carabiners might be too much, how about three not so fat carabiners?

T :moses:

Good points, TJ. I haven't tried 3, though - that goes beyond sloth, right? Slime mold?

Speaking of carabiners, I am loving the Rock Exotica Pirate (http://www.rockexotica.com/products/carabiners/pirate.html) (HMS) and RockO (http://www.rockexotica.com/products/carabiners/rocko.html) (Oval). The locking mechanism (screwgate) is the best I have used. It resists overtightening (stops on both ends of the sleeve), has superior gritlock resistance, and the beefy sleeve has an inward-loading* rating for alla you dinos out there using figure 8s, brake bar racks, or similar, large-attachment-eye devices. Great gate opening size, too, due to angled gate hinge (gate swing path non-coplanar with frame, oh nerdly ones).

Pirate = fat (and fits the Pirana)
RockO = not as fat


*If you don't understand the danger of inward loading, see here:

http://goo.gl/Y3Mxp

More interesting stuff:

http://goo.gl/IuRjk

[ratagonia]

Good points, TJ. I haven't tried 3, though - that goes beyond sloth, right? Slime mold?

Speaking of carabiners, I am loving the Rock Exotica Pirate (http://www.rockexotica.com/products/carabiners/pirate.html) (HMS) and RockO (http://www.rockexotica.com/products/carabiners/rocko.html) (Oval). The locking mechanism (screwgate) is the best I have used. It resists overtightening (stops on both ends of the sleeve), has superior gritlock resistance, and the beefy sleeve has an inward-loading* rating for alla you dinos out there using figure 8s, brake bar racks, or similar, large-attachment-eye devices. Great gate opening size, too, due to angled gate hinge (gate swing path non-coplanar with frame, oh nerdly ones).

Pirate = fat (and fits the Pirana)
RockO = not as fat


*If you don't understand the danger of inward loading, see here:

http://goo.gl/Y3Mxp

More interesting stuff:

http://goo.gl/IuRjk

Ditto. Will be adding those to the site, soon.

T

[Bo_Beck]

Ditto. Will be adding those to the site, soon.

T

For some reason I'm not getting it? First time I did a long free hanging rappel with a fair amount of mass was out of Heaps. I had a 65Lb. pack (dry) and at that time I weighed 155Lbs. My wetsuit was wet and of course minus the 300' (dry) Bluewater accessory cord (10Lbs) my pack weight was 55Lbs. so total mass around 1kn., and I used single strand for the descent hooked up to a CMI Mini Eight (anodized of course!), my descent was on an 8mm Bluewater accessory cord, and was smooth as butter.....no "Vertacos" no added friction.....nada? Why the heck are folks gripping so tight (or so percieved?).....oh yeah, the pucker factor! I've seen climbers "Dent" the rock because they gripped so hard! Ease up and preserve some enregy for lower down (or in the case of climbers...higher up).Personally I've never added friction on any descend using my ATC. I take it back....I've wrapped the free end around my leg before to ease up for a moment. Am I missing something that others are experiencing???????????

[ratagonia]

For some reason I'm not getting it? First time I did a long free hanging rappel with a fair amount of mass was out of Heaps. I had a 65Lb. pack (dry) and at that time I weighed 155Lbs. My wetsuit was wet and of course minus the 300' (dry) Bluewater accessory cord (10Lbs) my pack weight was 55Lbs. so total mass around 1kn., and I used single strand for the descent hooked up to a CMI Mini Eight (anodized of course!), my descent was on an 8mm Bluewater accessory cord, and was smooth as butter.....no "Vertacos" no added friction.....nada? Why the heck are folks gripping so tight (or so percieved?).....oh yeah, the pucker factor! I've seen climbers "Dent" the rock because they gripped so hard! Ease up and preserve some enregy for lower down (or in the case of climbers...higher up).Personally I've never added friction on any descend using my ATC. I take it back....I've wrapped the free end around my leg before to ease up for a moment. Am I missing something that others are experiencing???????????

If you ate more ice cream, Bo, and plumped out to a pleasant roundness like the rest of us, I think you would understand. Unfortunately you are metabolically challenged and unable to put on weight. So sorry for you bud, once you get a little older, maybe it will happen.

But, a good point, so let me actually address that, now that I've ejected some snide remarks...

On short rappels, one can use an iron grip to compensate for not really setting up your rappel device correctly. As the rappel gets longer, or steeper, or scarier, this over-gripping is not so effective, so the friction actually needs to be set up "correctly" ie, so that only a small control force is needed to control the rappel.

But on even bigger rappels (> 200 feet, say) an adjustable-friction plan is needed to maintain proper friction on the rope as the weight of the rope drops out of the equation. At the top of the rappel, a lower friction setting is required as the weight of the ROPE (ie, not accessory cord, BO!) adds additional control force. As this force decreases, the wise rappeller likely has a plan for adding a bit of friction mid-rappel.

For Heaps, this is a big deal as it is all free-hanging. Me, I tend to set up the Pirana at 1 or 2 to start, then add a leg loop biner, then add the Z-rig for the last 100 feet. Generally works like a charm. A bottom belay, radio-enhanced, has proved a life-saver on at least one occasion, when I made some serious miscalculations. Having an ultra-reliable, hand-strong friend at the bottom, with radio, is highly recommended!!! (Thanks Chris).

Oh, and (back to Snidely Wiseacre): Bo - rapping single strand!!! The horror, the horror!!!!!

Tom :moses:

[The Good Cop]

Tom, thanks for the precise breakdown on what works for one person on the final Heaps rappel, while I have heard a number of options mentiooned before, I do not believe I have ever seen it described in those clear 3 distinct friction steps. Good stuff, and easily adaptable to an ATC-XP (my current device), I have not ever done the double step-up on friction that you describe, but then I haven't done 90m free-hanging either, so that is much-appreciated.

Wayne

[ratagonia]

Tom, thanks for the precise breakdown on what works for one person on the final Heaps rappel, while I have heard a number of options mentiooned before, I do not believe I have ever seen it described in those clear 3 distinct friction steps. Good stuff, and easily adaptable to an ATC-XP (my current device), I have not ever done the double step-up on friction that you describe, but then I haven't done 90m free-hanging either, so that is much-appreciated.

Wayne

Thanks, but... be sure and try it in a safe place and see what works for you.

You CAN test how a 90m rappel feels by keeping the rope in the bag, and hanging its weight on the rope near the end of the rappel. It takes at least two people to do this, but worth it when gearing up for your first or next BIG rappel.

Tom

[The Good Cop]

Always smart to try it somewhere safe first, I enthusiastically agree. The interesting thing about the biggie on Heaps is the combined size plus psychology, or so it seems to me, not having done it. I know the size of the first drop on Englestead did have a psychological impact for me. Anyway, I've done decent-sized free-hanging drops, and changed friction part way down, for example on Behunin's last drop, but switching to a leg loop biner was enough of a change on the less than 200 feet of rope hanging experience there (canyon fire, FWIW). And I've done 90m walking (Englestead) with a new 8mm Imlay rope, but we over-rigged, so the only nuisance was helping the rope through the device (we tried the 2 ATCs in series technique, recommended somewhere, but just too much friction for us). As a side note, we tested it previously, but underestimated just how much impact the rope weight would have. In any case, it would sure be nice to not over-friction - but still maintain enough of course - and having a 2-level step-up in friction like you descibe seems to my intuition to be a good approach. I look forward to playing with the Z-rig as a second friction upgrade after the leg loop biner in the future, thanks for giving me the concept.

And as always, thanks for the cautious, error-on-the-side-of-safety input,

Wayne

[hank moon]

Bo - rapping single strand!!! The horror, the horror!

:lol8:

[Bo_Beck]

So sorry for you bud, once you get a little older, maybe it will happen.
Tom :moses:

You mean I have "fat and bald to look forward to?" Halfway there! :haha:

[Bo_Beck]

:lol8:

Good thing it was Bluewater Accessory cord and not some low friction, low stretch super stiff and durable rope made specifically for canyons!:cool2:

[Bo_Beck]

You mean I have "fat and bald to look forward to?" Halfway there! :haha:

See!:haha:

[oldno7]

See!:haha:

Whoaaaa--That picture has to be shopped, look at all that hair...............:lol8:

[Bo_Beck]

Whoaaaa--That picture has to be shopped, look at all that hair...............:lol8:

Keep it in a special folder to preserve my san....I mean vanity.

[hank moon]

Good thing it was Bluewater Accessory cord and not some low friction, low stretch super stiff and durable rope made specifically for canyons!:cool2:

Roger that. Y'know, in addition to global warming, scientists say that gravity has increased incrementally during the past 4 decades or so...could have been another factor in your earlier Heaps experience.

[coolinlv]

Really great advice, thanks folks. Wish I'd found this BEFORE my first canyoneering class though :). Did two 50 meter raps with 9 and 11 mm rope using an ATC xp and NEVER felt in real control. and this was using two carabiners and a leg loop. have since learned about the "z" rig above as well as wrapping the brake rope around my behind and using the other hand (i don't care which hand I brake with). next time I also think I'll try an autoblock off a leg loop with the rope THEN wrapped around my butt. using what I did, I wouldn't try doing a lock-off using any method as I was never confident enough. I also tore up fairly thick neoprene gloves AND my hands a bit. and I'm not that big, about 200 lbs with light pack....

[ratagonia]

Really great advice, thanks folks. Wish I'd found this BEFORE my first canyoneering class though :). Did two 50 meter raps with 9 and 11 mm rope using an ATC xp and NEVER felt in real control. and this was using two carabiners and a leg loop. have since learned about the "z" rig above as well as wrapping the brake rope around my behind and using the other hand (i don't care which hand I brake with). next time I also think I'll try an autoblock off a leg loop with the rope THEN wrapped around my butt. using what I did, I wouldn't try doing a lock-off using any method as I was never confident enough. I also tore up fairly thick neoprene gloves AND my hands a bit. and I'm not that big, about 200 lbs with light pack....

Welcome to the Bogley, Coolinlv.

I believe you found out that neoprene gloves are not rappelling gloves. Leather works at times, and the Atlas Thermofit work OK, but neoprene gloves are counter-productive. Sometimes in Heaps we wear neoprene gloves for warmth during the cold swims, and take them off for the rappels.

Sounds like you have four hands, if you are doing all these things on a rappel to get more friction and control. Actually, to me it sounds like something is not right, because using a 9mm and 11mm rope, with an ATC-XP, pretty much any way you stuff it in shoulda been sufficient. Or did you mean a single line 9mm rap and a single line 11mm rap? Even then...

The Z-rig kinda stuff (ie, cross-butting, squeezing really hard, not feeling like you are in control) should be used rarely, and mostly on long rappels. If you're using the Z-rig on a regular basis, that tends to imply you are not getting enough friction on your "regular basis" rappel method, and there are simpler ways to get more friction than Z-rig kinda stuff; and should probably be your primary method, saving the Z-rig kinda stuff for special situations like long rappels.

Tom

[coolinlv]

Welcome to the Bogley, Coolinlv.

I believe you found out that neoprene gloves are not rappelling gloves. Leather works at times, and the Atlas Thermofit work OK, but neoprene gloves are counter-productive. Sometimes in Heaps we wear neoprene gloves for warmth during the cold swims, and take them off for the rappels.

Sounds like you have four hands, if you are doing all these things on a rappel to get more friction and control. Actually, to me it sounds like something is not right, because using a 9mm and 11mm rope, with an ATC-XP, pretty much any way you stuff it in shoulda been sufficient. Or did you mean a single line 9mm rap and a single line 11mm rap? Even then...

The Z-rig kinda stuff (ie, cross-butting, squeezing really hard, not feeling like you are in control) should be used rarely, and mostly on long rappels. If you're using the Z-rig on a regular basis, that tends to imply you are not getting enough friction on your "regular basis" rappel method, and there are simpler ways to get more friction than Z-rig kinda stuff; and should probably be your primary method, saving the Z-rig kinda stuff for special situations like long rappels.

Tom

The neoprene gloves definitely didn't work well, though I wouldn't call them counter-productive as they actually saved my hands from getting torn up worse. It was single rope of both thicknesses. No one else in the class had any trouble getting enough friction, using a variety of devices, including another atc xp. I suspect SOMETHING was wrong, but no one was able to figure out what.....definitely put a huge damper on my first (and last?) experience as 90% of my energy and attention went to just slowing down. I think I'll practice in the garage with various suggestions here. Thanks!

[ratagonia]

The neoprene gloves definitely didn't work well, though I wouldn't call them counter-productive as they actually saved my hands from getting torn up worse. It was single rope of both thicknesses. No one else in the class had any trouble getting enough friction, using a variety of devices, including another atc xp. I suspect SOMETHING was wrong, but no one was able to figure out what.....definitely put a huge damper on my first (and last?) experience as 90% of my energy and attention went to just slowing down. I think I'll practice in the garage with various suggestions here. Thanks!

I say Neoprene gloves are counter-productive because they make it hard to grip the rope due to their bulk, and they tend to have a low-friction surface. A double-whammy. I was being polite. Neoprene gloves are DANGEROUS for rappelling.

You would have been much better off with no gloves on.

I am a guide with Zion Adventure Company and teach classes. We do not 'allow' people to use gloves in class. Gloves are a crutch. People must first learn to set up their rappel device with the amount of friction they want to get. By NOT wearing gloves, people learn this faster.

I don't know what you were doing, but I think we can conclude it is not working. I would suggest using a different instructor, since training you in how your tools are used is a large part of the job of the instructor.

At ZAC, we train people with a Pirana, which has many options, as a starting point. But, we can also teach the ATC-XP. Our link to courses is: http://www.zionadventures.com/zion-park-tours/canyoneering/courses/

Tom

[coolinlv]

I say Neoprene gloves are counter-productive because they make it hard to grip the rope due to their bulk, and they tend to have a low-friction surface. A double-whammy. I was being polite. Neoprene gloves are DANGEROUS for rappelling.

You would have been much better off with no gloves on.

I am a guide with Zion Adventure Company and teach classes. We do not 'allow' people to use gloves in class. Gloves are a crutch. People must first learn to set up their rappel device with the amount of friction they want to get. By NOT wearing gloves, people learn this faster.

I don't know what you were doing, but I think we can conclude it is not working. I would suggest using a different instructor, since training you in how your tools are used is a large part of the job of the instructor.

At ZAC, we train people with a Pirana, which has many options, as a starting point. But, we can also teach the ATC-XP. Our link to courses is: http://www.zionadventures.com/zion-park-tours/canyoneering/courses/

Tom

No gloves in this case would have simply meant NO hands; as it was, I had blisters and hot spots on the palms of both hands. and they were definitely grippier than bare skin, which is why I use them for other things. I understand the sentiment, though it's misguided (I've taught longer than you in a wildly different venue. My favorite aphorism: EVERYTHING works, NOTHING works for EVERYBODY.). No gloves would have taught a lesson, to no good or necessary, but a very predictable, end.

I'm not much into religious wars (hell, I'm writing this on a Mac!), but experience has taught than when someone says NEVER, they're almost certainly wrong.

I was probably using about 30 lbs to control my descent, using two carabiners on the ATC and one on a leg loop. I suspect that is at least a factor of 3 too much? I tried other devices during ground school and didn't much care for them (too many bells and whistles for newbies with already too many things to remember), though the Stirling ATS might be worth a long look.

Actually thought my instructor was quite good. He probably should have had us do a 10 foot rap, to tweek things before going to a much longer one though. Wasn't possible at our venue, unfortunately. Life is a learning experience, if one does it right.

Thru experimentation, I think I've discovered that a half twist in the belay loop had the rope missing the main
friction causing surfaces in the ATC. I sorta noticed that on the ground, hence the extra precautions. See the last sentence in the previous paragraph!

[Brian in SLC]

Did two 50 meter raps with 9 and 11 mm rope using an ATC xp and NEVER felt in real control..

Single rope or double?

I use an ATC a ton especially for climbing. I'm probably a bit heavier than you. I use an 8.9 to 9.4mm climbing rope and really nothing bigger (rare, but, I do have a 10.5mm 70m rope I use for hard use).

If I'm rappelling double strand, I never, never, add a biner, z rig or wear gloves. I get plenty of friction out of my ATC XP all by itself. This as recently as yesterday...but...usually several times a week.

You've got to be missing something. Your brake hand position, body position, something must be off.

[Deathcricket]

Really great advice, thanks folks. Wish I'd found this BEFORE my first canyoneering class though :). Did two 50 meter raps with 9 and 11 mm rope using an ATC xp and NEVER felt in real control. and this was using two carabiners and a leg loop. have since learned about the "z" rig above as well as wrapping the brake rope around my behind and using the other hand (i don't care which hand I brake with). next time I also think I'll try an autoblock off a leg loop with the rope THEN wrapped around my butt. using what I did, I wouldn't try doing a lock-off using any method as I was never confident enough. I also tore up fairly thick neoprene gloves AND my hands a bit. and I'm not that big, about 200 lbs with light pack....

I've actually never been comfortable rapping on an ATC either. I've tried it a couple times since this was posted with the techniques mentioned and it's not comforting. I can do it, but never feel in complete control. They do work "ok" for double strand though. I would advise you to just get a piranna, it has some really nice friction settings and works awesome. Sometimes a better "tool" is all you need. :2thumbs:

[Brian in SLC]

Sometimes a better "tool" is all you need. :2thumbs:

How's that go? Its a poor carpenter that blames his tools...

Or...its not the size of the wand, but, the magic behind it?

Ha ha...

[ratagonia]

I've actually never been comfortable rapping on an ATC either. I've tried it a couple times since this was posted with the techniques mentioned and it's not comforting. I can do it, but never feel in complete control. They do work "ok" for double strand though. I would advise you to just get a piranna, it has some really nice friction settings and works awesome. Sometimes a better "tool" is all you need. :2thumbs:

ATC is a great tool, but as Las Vegas Coolio has pointed out, it requires some knowledge to get the correct friction on it.

Tom

[Deathcricket]

ATC is a great tool, but as Las Vegas Coolio has pointed out, it requires some extra knowledge, equipment, limiting mobility in a leg, and extended setup to get the correct friction set on it.

Tom

Fixed :haha:


How's that go? Its a poor carpenter that blames his tools...

Or...its not the size of the wand, but, the magic behind it?

Ha ha...

And that's why I still rap off the pieces of "bent rebar" I still see in canyons. if it was good enough for the original explorers, it's good enough for me. *snicker*

[hank moon]

You've got to be missing something. Your brake hand position, body position, something must be off.

X2

And Neo gloves can be deceptive: though they may seem to grip the rope better from a coefficient of friction POV, if they are thick and/or loose-fitting, their bulk and sponginess prevents the hand from applying a good mechanical grip to the rope (unless you're using super-thick rope, of course). Even if they are a good fit, the hand fatigues faster from resisting the gloves' elasticity. Finally, they can also quickly wear away under the sliding rope, so the good static grip (high friction coefficient) you imagine will help can cause problems when the rope starts sliding through the gloves.

Coolinlv, can you tell us more about the setup you were using? Brand, model, and condition of rope (was it brand new?). How the two carabiners were being used. Whether the brake line(s) were correctly running through the high friction (grooved) side of the ATC-XP. Wear state of the ATC and its carabiners, etc.

Techniques such as wrapping rope around the butt (or other body parts) are for emergency use and inherently risky/unstable, and/or painful. A proper descending setup should use only a descender (or sometimes two) and some carabiners to generate friction.

X2 on what Tom said about your instructor. A better instructor would have made certain the students understood the basics of friction before cutting them loose on a long rappel - especially with Neo gloves (scary). Fortunately, you seem to be on a good path to learning from the experience. :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Fixed :haha:



And that's why I still rap off the pieces of "bent rebar" I still see in canyons. if it was good enough for the original explorers, it's good enough for me. *snicker*

Please do not alter-quote my posts out here in the 'real-world', Death Cricket. I realize down in the dungeon, it is 'funny'. Up here, it is defamatory.

Tom

[DiscGo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HO63-fxDPw

[kiwi_outdoors]

well, lets see if I can get meself in hot water....

First- if you want friction that is kind to your rope (that which you dangle from) use a cavers rack - easy to make coarse adjustments by adding or relleasing a bar , fine tune friction by squeezing bars together or spreading them apart, easy peasy to tie off and take a nap (or a photo)

Second - although I have used them for almost all my raps the ATC intrinsically seems like a lousy descent device as it has next to zero inherent friction. It is not a logical design for anything except descending fast.

Ok. flame on :-)

[hank moon]

This thread belongs in XX Century.

[harness man]

Canyoneering with ATCs, Piranas, and Racks?
:roflol: