B.L.M. sign to be installed in Birch Hollow

[backofbeyond]

I received this E-mail today from Kanab B.L.M. This is a small opportunity to be involved in the sign that will be put in Birch August 3rd. Get your feed back to me as soon as possible and I will forward the well thought out comments to them. Thanks for your Help


"Hi James,

In an effort to get the word out about Birch Hollow, BLM will be installing
a sign or two in the area on August 3rd. At that point, the signs will be
temporary, so we can change the wording if needed. Tom Christensen and I
are working up some draft language, and I thought that based on your
interests, you might have some suggestions. Do you want to have any input
on what goes on the signs?"

[Iceaxe]

DO NOT PROCEED - GIANT DEADLY SNAKES BEYOND THIS POINT!

And if that doesn't work.......

Exactly what information is this signage supposed to convey? warning? ethics? routes?

What's the deal? The BLM have a little extra cash burning a hole in their pocket?

How about.... please do not clog our wildness experience with signs?

:cool2:

[backofbeyond]

I would assume ethics and etiquette would be a good place to start. I also imagine that it would be off the road not in the W.S.A. I agree with your sentiment Signs in wilderness piss me off to but so do people that don't have a respect for wilderness therefore making a need for signs. Therefore I can also assume that if people knew how to treat Wilderness there would be no need for the sign.

[bshwakr]

__

[Iceaxe]

That was tongue in cheek....

I'm more interested in what kind of information the BLM hopes to convey? and where are the signs to be located?

That Birch is getting signs is kinda vague, provide a little more info and perhaps I can provide something constructive....

[Iceaxe]

As a starting point I would probably look at the kiosk the BLM recently placed in the Sandthrax Campground with regards to the Irish Canyons.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?36752

:cool2:

[backofbeyond]

[

How about.... please do not clog our wildness experience with signs?

:cool2:

What is the difference Between " Shane's Irish Canyons" Sign and the Birch Sign?

[bshwakr]

__

[backofbeyond]

:lol8:
Well, offhand, I would say the Birch sign should be attached to an outhouse rather than some lame kiosk.

k

[backofbeyond]

So the back story for the sign is; B.L.M. has sent a letter to guides indicating that they need to limit group size and separate group descents by 30 mins. The problem is not guides, it is large groups that are unaware of Mexican Spotted Owls in the canyon. It' is also people who leave trash, graffiti ect... it is also the people who do not use the correct approach and are leaving social trails. These groups are unaware of the regulation and if the conditions in Birch do not improve it could be disastrous. We as a community need to understand that land managers are suppose to manage the Land, the resource, the watershed, the animal's ect... Recreation comes later down the line.

[ratagonia]

I received this E-mail today from Kanab B.L.M. This is a small opportunity to be involved in the sign that will be put in Birch August 3rd. Get your feed back to me as soon as possible and I will forward the well thought out comments to them. Thanks for your Help


"Hi James,

In an effort to get the word out about Birch Hollow, BLM will be installing
a sign or two in the area on August 3rd. At that point, the signs will be
temporary, so we can change the wording if needed. Tom Christensen and I
are working up some draft language, and I thought that based on your
interests, you might have some suggestions. Do you want to have any input
on what goes on the signs?"


It might be a help, James, if you would say who you are in the real world, why you were sent an email, etc. so that we'all might know who we are talking to.

You might include as to why people should send their comments to you, rather than directly to Tom Christensen at the BLM.

Tom

[ratagonia]

DO NOT PROCEED - GIANT DEADLY SNAKES BEYOND THIS POINT!

And if that doesn't work.......

Exactly what information is this signage supposed to convey? warning? ethics? routes?

What's the deal? The BLM have a little extra cash burning a hole in their pocket?

How about.... please do not clog our wildness experience with signs?

:cool2:

POISON IVY AREA

usually works pretty well, too.

:moses:

[Iceaxe]

What is the difference Between " Shane's Irish Canyons" Sign and the Birch Sign?

Let's get one thing clear right up front.... that is NOT my sign in the Irish Canyons.

The BLM asked if they could use information from my website for their Kiosk and and I granted them permission. I pointed you to the thread so you could see what other BLM offices have done and are doing.... I thought it might be of help...

Honestly I could careless if there is a sign or not.... if someone believes a sign will stop vandalism and graffiti good luck with that....

Now on to my next rant....

Canyoneers have been descending Birch is herds for over 10 years..... The Mexican Spotted Owl would not have established residence in Birch if canyoneering was an issue to the owls.... the only one who has an issue with owls and canyoneers are land managers.... and that is word for word from an expert on Mexican Spotted Owls.

:cool2:

[Pelon1]

The Mexican Spotted Owl would not have established residence in Birch if canyoneering was an issue to the owls.... the only one who has an issue with owls and canyoneers are land managers.... and that is word for word from an expert on Mexican Spotted Owls.:cool2:

Not sure why its a big deal anyway they are probably illegal and growing pot:lol8:

[Iceaxe]

it is also the people who do not use the correct approach and are leaving social trails. These groups are unaware of the regulation and if the conditions in Birch do not improve it could be disastrous. We as a community need to understand that land managers are suppose to manage the Land, the resource, the watershed, the animal's ect... Recreation comes later down the line.

If the Kanab BLM really wants to get something done they need to contact the half dozen sources from which 90% of all beta orientates and tell them in which direction and what ethics they would like to see established for a particular canyon. That is what other area land managers have done with excellent results.... I've always been amazed that the Zion area land managers march to a totally different drumer than the rest of the state and somehoe manage to do less with more than just about everyone else.

[Scott Card]

Wait, aren't we the animals the managers are managing?

And I thought the Mexican Spotted Owls were only in Pine Creek. And who let them in the country anyway? Aren't there laws and fences for these sorts of owls?

[Iceaxe]

Not sure why its a big deal anyway they are probably illegal and growing pot:lol8:

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[backofbeyond]

It might be a help, James, if you would say who you are in the real world, why you were sent an email, etc. so that we'all might know who we are talking to.

You might include as to why people should send their comments to you, rather than directly to Tom Christensen at the BLM.

Tom

In the real world I am guy who asked the B.L.M. to come to a canyoneering conference and express their concerns to recreational canyoneers after they had sent the new regulations out to guides. I do not see the guides as the problem but large groups who have no etiquette or ethics. I have had little contact with them beyond that, I can only assume that they sent me the e-mail because I have shown some sort of interest in keeping restrictions off of canyons.

You are right Tom, People can send there comments directly to Tom Christensen.

[oldno7]

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

X2

[oldno7]

You might include as to why people should send their comments to you, rather than directly to Tom Christensen at the BLM.



That is indeed VERY odd!!!!

If you represent a large group, that might be another thing, but to ask bogleyites to send responses to you, ODD!!!

I have no idea who back of beyond is.

[backofbeyond]

Canyoneers have been descending Birch is herds for over 10 years..... The Mexican Spotted Owl would not have established residence in Birch if canyoneering was an issue to the owls.... the only one who has an issue with owls and canyoneers are land managers.... and that is word for word from an expert on Mexican Spotted Owls.

:cool2:

Sorry if I offended you Shane I just saw a little humor there, any way you maybe right about us not bothering the owls. The are many concerns with Birch not just the owls. Seeing how it is a W.S.A. and Wilderness is considered untrammeled by man, we should think about the impact on all aspects of the canyon and what we as canyoneers can do to help preserve an area we all enjoy.

[ratagonia]

Sorry if I offended you Shane I just saw a little humor there, any way you maybe right about us not bothering the owls. The are many concerns with Birch not just the owls. Seeing how it is a W.S.A. and Wilderness is considered untrammeled by man, we should think about the impact on all aspects of the canyon and what we as canyoneers can do to help preserve an area we all enjoy.

Perhaps people would like to know what the word "untrammeled" means.

One does not deal with Wilderness issues by applying a trammel to the situation, unless one is an NPS administrator.

untrammeled
English --- Adjective

untrammeled -- not limited or restricted; unrestrained

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/untrammeled

Definition: untrammeled
Adjective
1. Not confined or limited; "the gift of a fresh eye and an untrammeled curiosity"; "the untrammeled rush that the snows had shown in the first spring sun".[Wordnet]
2. Not hampered or impeded; free.[Websters]
3. Being uncontrolled, unrestrained, unfettered or unbridled. [Eve - graph theoretic]
4. Being unconstrained, unbound, unchecked, unconfined or free. [Eve - graph theoretic]
5. Being unhindered, unobstructed, unimpeded or unhampered. [Eve - graph theoretic]
6. Being limitless, unlimited or unrestricted. [Eve - graph theoretic]
7. Infrequently used base adjective of the adverb untrammeledly.[Eve - graph theoretic]

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/untrammeled?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=untrammeled&sa=Search#906

[backofbeyond]

One does not deal with Wilderness issues by applying a trammel to the situation, unless one is an NPS administrator.

untrammeled
English --- Adjective

untrammeled -- not limited or restricted; unrestrained


I can only assume this is why Zion is a National Park and not Wilderness, by the same definition that is why Birch is a study Area and not Wilderness, correct?

[mattandersao]

That is indeed VERY odd!!!!

If you represent a large group, that might be another thing, but to ask bogleyites to send responses to you, ODD!!!

I have no idea who back of beyond is.

It seems as if backofbeyond is just trying to be helpful and y'all are busting his balls! :kicknuts::kicknuts::kicknuts::kicknuts:

[trackrunner]

I can only assume this is why Zion is a National Park and not Wilderness, by the same definition that is why Birch is a study Area and not Wilderness, correct?

a lot of Zion is being considered/proposed for congressional designated wilderness.
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?33686-2-condoms

[ratagonia]

I can only assume this is why Zion is a National Park and not Wilderness, by the same definition that is why Birch is a study Area and not Wilderness, correct?

:facepalm1: Nope. :facepalm1:

Zion is a National Park because Congress made it so, quite some time ago. Most of Zion is also designated Wilderness, because Congress did so a couple years ago.

BLM land is a Wilderness Study Area because the BLM designated it that quite some time ago, and not an official Wilderness Area because Congress has not yet made it one.

The actual condition of the land -- trammelled, untrammelled, trampled, untrampled, wildish, etc. -- plays into it somewhat, especially in theory. In practice, these designations are largely political.

It is quite arduous for the BLM to make rules, and they would rather not. Notice in his letter, Tom goes out of the way to say he really hopes they and we can handle this without actually making real rules.

The NPS, on the other hand, has an easier time writing and implementing rules.

While it is in Wilderness Study Area status, the BLM is charged with sustaining its Wilderness Attributes. Really, there is no conflict here related to this issue.

The BLM is also charged with accomodating the Endangered Species Act, which means they are required to keep the owls from being disturbed by canyoneers. Their thinking is that the extended noise and nuisance of large groups >12 is likely to disturb whatever owls are nesting in Birch Hollow (despite the many peer-reviewed papers IceAxe has published in Nature that show otherwise... :haha:).

If you'd like to do some reading on these issues, you could start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness_Act
http://www.suwa.org/about/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_Species_Act

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

a lot of Zion is being considered/proposed for congressional designated wilderness. last I heard it stalled in the house.
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?33686-2-condoms

Late to the party, Shaun...

All done.

http://www.nps.gov/zion/parknews/wilderness-designated-in-zion-national-park.htm

Tom

[trackrunner]

cool. a couple bill tracking websites listed it as stalled and haven't updated.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-146

[tcott]

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

X3

[backofbeyond]

Get your feed back to me as soon as possible and I will forward the well thought out comments to them. Thanks for your Help




Thank you Bogelyiets for your well thought out comments, Next time I come across something that pertains to the canyoneering community I will not involve you. I'm sure there is another forum where I could find a group of people who care about the places we visit and would be willing to help me out.

[shagdeuce]

Funny reaction to this thread. For all the hatred of politics on these forums, the canyoneering community politics are strong. What seems like a legit avenue for our voice to be heard (a voice that we are always complaining is never listened to) is met with a chorus of "who are you for the BLM to be emailing you." Does it matter? Maybe because backofbeyond has a rookie tag next to his name, he shouldn't be involved in weighty matters that would normally be handled by the Emperor of Canyoneering. Perhaps we should restart this thread with Tom posting the original request for feedback so that we can actually get some discussion about the sign itself.

Who cares how backofbeyond received the email (other than to give context to the situation)? The BLM clearly cares about his/her opinion and is an extending an avenue for feedback. Maybe we work through that avenue rather than flooding the contact person with 1,000 emails (which may cause him to not ask next time).

At the risk of overextending my own rookie tag, I'll give my opionion. It always ticks me off when I see a big ugly sign at a trailhead and it only contains warnings/restrictions without any useful information about the hike. My opinion is that they should give information about the hike along with the warnings/restrictions. If they are posting a sign, the secrets about the canyon and the route is clearly already out. Maybe they could post a topo map with the trail defined. Maybe they could post information about where to set up the shuttle. Maybe a description about how the first rappel can be bypassed to avoid core shots and a waterfall of shale (assuming the BLM is cool with the erosion on the bypass route). Etc. If the BLM provides useful information IMHO, people may actually read the crap about group size, the owls, etc.

[oldno7]

Perhaps, instead of b.o.b. coming on and soliciting responses on a forum he is new to, He could have introduced himself and explained his agenda, first.

Like I said, I have no clue who b.o.b. is, why would I send a land agency response to him? While his intentions appear to be good, who is to say a comment sent to b.o.b. will make it to Kanab?

Now if Tom,Shane, Ram or many oithers who are well known had asked the same.......... I'd a said, why the hell do I want to send a reply to you?:haha:(somehow it just doesn't make sense, like I stated, to send a land agency response to an individual who I, or apparently many others, don't know, or do know for that matter) It would seem a link would have been the best avenue. imho

[oldno7]

As an analogy, I might compare this to Tom, in November 2012, offering to take my vote to the proper poll to help out , ya see, I'm just not certain it would work out for MY interest.

[Felicia]

I believe backofbeyond's intentions are well placed. I believe that Bogley members do have an interest in participating in the process. I also believe that more information is necessary to move forward in a positive and productive direction.

I propose a hypothetical: A sign will be posted at the entrance location of Birch Canyon by BLM in the near future: what information should be provided to the reader as they pass by? Suggestions? Samples? Comments?

Move my question to a new thread? Canyoneering section threads are viewed by members and non-members of Bogley. The Political or Environmental section is for users only.

How Bogley member comments arrive at a destination can be debated here.

...my two cents. I'm going hiking for the day!

[trackrunner]

In the real world I am guy who asked the B.L.M. to come to a canyoneering conference and express their concerns to recreational canyoneers after they had sent the new regulations out to guides. I do not see the guides as the problem but large groups who have no etiquette or ethics. I have had little contact with them beyond that, I can only assume that they sent me the e-mail because I have shown some sort of interest in keeping restrictions off of canyons.

You are right Tom, People can send there comments directly to Tom Christensen.

How would "Tom Christensen and "I" (What is BLM's "I's" name?) like the responses. Send directly to him snail mail, email, phone call, or send our responses to James M. to compile.

I will add be care what the community wishes for. Example, don't be surprised if the BLM meet's "community's" demand for heavy restrictions. Curious what others think. A group size limit? Seems rediculous when multiple groups with 20+ members go through.

[ratagonia]

How would "Tom Christensen and "I" (What is BLM's "I's" name?) like the responses. Send directly to him snail mail, email, phone call, or send our responses to James M. to compile.

I will add be care what the community wishes for. Example, don't be surprised if the BLM meet's "community's" demand for heavy restrictions. Curious what others think. A group size limit? Seems rediculous when multiple groups with 20+ members go through.

The BLM has not, in so many words, asked for comments. They have notified permit holders that signage will be going up, and that the BLM is very concerned about very large groups going through.

Tom

[ratagonia]

cool. a couple bill tracking websites listed it as stalled and haven't updated.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-146

Hmmmm. When I click on that, I get: " Mar 30, 2009: Became Public Law No: 111-11." Hmmmmmm.

:moses:

[trackrunner]

The BLM has not, in so many words, asked for comments. They have notified permit holders that signage will be going up, and that the BLM is very concerned about very large groups going through.

Tom

so the BLM is only asking suggestions on the sign from the canyon elitist

Hmmmm. When I click on that, I get: " Mar 30, 2009: Became Public Law No: 111-11." Hmmmmmm.

:moses:

yesterday when I checked the House vote was in red stating it was stalled.

[ratagonia]

so the BLM is only asking suggestions on the sign from the canyon elitist


Touchy, touchy... the actual letter is on the other thread.

There is no explicit request for comments - it is a notice that they are putting up a sign. Perhaps Tom C explicitly asked B.O.B. to round up some comments?

Tom

[oldno7]

Perhaps Tom C explicitly asked B.O.B. to round up some comments?

Tom

Perhaps, b.o.b. has a personal agenda and want's to screen comment's before submittal.

(since we're going down the "perhaps" road)Which we wouldn't have to go down if b.o.b. introduced himself and explained his agenda and reasoning.


So, back on topic, where is said signage to be placed, considering there are several approach routes? I would presume the canyon where it is crossed by the North fork road?

[ratagonia]

Perhaps, b.o.b. has a personal agenda and want's to screen comment's before submittal.

(since we're going down the "perhaps" road)Which we wouldn't have to go down if b.o.b. introduced himself and explained his agenda and reasoning.


So, back on topic, where is said signage to be placed, considering there are several approach routes? I would presume the canyon where it is crossed by the North fork road?

You are such an angry man, Numero Septo. :ne_nau: Take a timeout. Assume Good Faith. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith

I think b.o.b. wants to be helpful, and does not have much experience in doing so, and thus stumbles when working with the "tough crowd" here at Bogley. :nod:

Now me, I definitely have a personal agenda. :angryfire: It's called, spelling words correctly.

Kurty, Kurty, Kurty. :nono: Want's??? Comment's??? What -- you getting paid to use apostrophes by the Apostrophe Collusion Association? Pulllllease. :nono: The words are "wants" and "comments".

Tom :crazy:

[rcwild]

I warned him ...

BOB is an outdoor recreation major at Southern Utah University. He is serving two internships; one for the Dixie National Forest as a recreation specialist and one for the ACA. His primary project for the ACA is planning and organizing our Zion Canyon Rendezvous in September. He contacted the BLM in Kanab to solicit their participation in the ACA/SUU Canyoneering Conference during the rendezvous. BLM expressed interest in soliciting opinions and input for the signage and other ways to inform canyoneers about issues in Birch Hollow. They participated in last year's Zion Canyon Rendezvous for the same reason; soliciting input from rendezvous participants.

BOB enthusiastically offered to help the BLM connect with the canyoneering community. He posted here to make sure Bogleyites had an opportunity to share their ideas. He happens to be a helluva nice guy with no other agenda except to help. He is learning a lot about the canyoneering community in the process.

[trackrunner]

James you can include my comments that you pass along.

If it is going to happen then something about group size limits, pack it in pack it out including all human waste, let faster groups play through.

[goofball]

Thank you Bogelyiets for your well thought out comments, Next time I come across something that pertains to the canyoneering community I will not involve you. I'm sure there is another forum where I could find a group of people who care about the places we visit and would be willing to help me out.

don't lump everyone here in w/ the handful of ****ing weirdos who are oh so obviously so much more relevant than all others. that is the nature of every forum i have ever seen. and i have met in passing while out playing, and know people, who are just as creeped out by it as you are ( and am one myself ). their is a vast, silent majority that benefits from the info here. participate for their sake, not the bozos w/ big heads.

[oldno7]

I warned him ...

BOB is an outdoor recreation major at Southern Utah University. He is serving two internships; one for the Dixie National Forest as a recreation specialist and one for the ACA. His primary project for the ACA is planning and organizing our Zion Canyon Rendezvous in September. He contacted the BLM in Kanab to solicit their participation in the ACA/SUU Canyoneering Conference during the rendezvous. BLM expressed interest in soliciting opinions and input for the signage and other ways to inform canyoneers about issues in Birch Hollow. They participated in last year's Zion Canyon Rendezvous for the same reason; soliciting input from rendezvous participants.

BOB enthusiastically offered to help the BLM connect with the canyoneering community. He posted here to make sure Bogleyites had an opportunity to share their ideas. He happens to be a helluva nice guy with no other agenda except to help. He is learning a lot about the canyoneering community in the process.


Perhaps if b.o.b. would have stated this in his first post, we would all be on the same page and avoided the confusion................

[rcwild]

Perhaps if b.o.b. would have stated this in his first post, we would all be on the same page and avoided the confusion................

Yeah. He should have come on and declared himself the Prince of Canyoneering. As just another regular ole canyoneer, what right does he have to ask other canyoneers for a little cooperation in helping the BLM with a project.

[spinesnaper]

:popcorn:

[backofbeyond]

I warned him ...



He did warn me and I should have known better, but I thought maybe one bogely post could stay on topic. I guess us peons have no say while the Emperor and the Guru's rule supreme. I do appreciate the thoughtful comments I received thank you.
Your's truly Gumbi, The Prince of Canyoneering:bootyshake:

[ratagonia]

He did warn me and I should have known better, but I thought maybe one bogely post could stay on topic. I guess us peons have no say while the Emperor and the Guru's rule supreme. I do appreciate the thoughtful comments I received thank you.
Your's truly Gumbi, The Prince of Canyoneering:bootyshake:

Perhaps, B.O.B., you would look to your presentation, and improving your presentation, rather than blaming non-blameless entities such as me and the Guru. I believe this was the theme of your previous presentation made to this pool of sharks...

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

It might be a help, James, if you would say who you are in the real world, why you were sent an email, etc. so that we'all might know who we are talking to.

You might include as to why people should send their comments to you, rather than directly to Tom Christensen at the BLM.

Tom

I guess, if you try really hard, you can construe this as an attack -- if you assume bad faith.

Reviewing the whole thread, I find a few grumpy comments from OldNo7, but not a whole lot that is antaganistic to B.O.B. So why the big defense???

Tom

[backofbeyond]

Perhaps, B.O.B., you would look to your presentation, and improving your presentation, rather than blaming non-blameless entities such as me and the Guru. I believe this was the theme of your previous presentation made to this pool of sharks...

Tom :moses:
I promise if I post anything again I will gift wrap it with pretty bows and ribbons.

[jman]

Wouldn't a champion of canyoneering still promote the cause regardless if they got their "feelings" hurt? isn't that the way in life?

[spinesnaper]

I promise if I post anything again I will gift wrap it with pretty bows and ribbons.

Ahhh it comes back to me now. B.O.B. you organized a conference that caught flak here, right? Sorry if I munched precisely the issue. Here I think is the key: mentoring. Perhaps more important than mentoring is actually being able to heed the mentor's advice. I would respectfully advise you to be mindful of the CIA Moscow Rules: Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is an enemy action.:hmm2:

Ken

[mattandersao]

Man the canyoneer forum is more brutal than the political one! This thread turned into one
almost as interesting as "ban jp":angryfire:

[spinesnaper]

Ahhh it comes back to me now. B.O.B. you organized a conference that caught flak here, right? Sorry if I munched precisely the issue. Here I think is the key: mentoring. Perhaps more important than mentoring is actually being able to heed the mentor's advice. I would respectfully advise you to be mindful of the CIA Moscow Rules: Once is an accident. Twice is a coincidence. Three times is an enemy action.:hmm2:

Ken

I sincerely mean that in a nice way.

Ken

[oldno7]

Man the canyoneer forum is more brutal than the political one! This thread turned into one
almost as interesting as "ban jp":angryfire:

O.K. Matt, let's(for Tom) try this and give an honest response:



I'm soliciting comments for the teachers collective bargaining agreement. I've been in contact with the teachers union, we are getting hammered up in Ogden and are in need of responses from teachers statewide. Get your feed back to me as soon as possible and I will forward the well thought out comments to Sharon Gallagher-Fishbaugh. Thanks for your help.

If your o.k. with sending political opinions to me, regarding teachers and the teachers union and knowing I'll get them to the right place, I'm o.k. with sending comments regarding land issues to b.o.b. and knowing he'll do the same.
All I asked him to do was identify himself(as did Tom), seems prudent to me.
Governing land agencies is very political as is governing teachers.

You see, any change in procedure in regards to management of a parcel of land(Birch Hollow), will have adverse affects on someone or some group. As I am quite familiar with some of those who might be affected, I would want to make sure my comments in regard to such management changes are going to the appropriate place, nothing more. My opinions might be very similar to b.o.b.'s or they may not.
But to make my opinion count, it would be in my best interest to know where it might end up, would you agree? If that is out of line, then yes, I was out of line, as was Tom, in asking b.o.b. to identify himself to a group he has not participated in.

[shagdeuce]

B.O.B.: Despite not receiving the feedback you wanted, I don't think there were any personal shots taken. I hope you were not personally offended. I agree it would have been nice for the community to just pitch in and help, but on a sensitive issue such as BLM restrictions, it may be understandable for everyone to request the full context (who you are, why you are acting as the liason, etc.). Everyone was perhaps agressive in this effort...maybe even a little obtuse...but I don't think they were coming at you personally.

I thought Tom's advice to Deathcricket earlier in the week was interesting about his presentation when convincing everyone to carry the injured canyoneer down the narrows. Presentation is important - especially when the issue has large consequences (such as a rescue, government regulations, etc.). Everyone might have contributed earlier had you posted what Rich did about your profile as soon as Tom and oldno7 started pushing for it (or better yet in your original post). As you put it, it might be wise to "gift wrap it with pretty bows and ribbons."

[Felicia]

Guys: backofbeyond did introduce himself: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?55725-Looking-for-different-perspectives&p=458410#post458410

I guess he thought that he would have been remembered from the last time he posted. Clearly, b.o.b., the members of Bogley have short memories. :lol8:

Under each person's icon is some helpful tools to assist in determining who is who. :bootyshake: Overall, a concise re-introduction by b.o.b. would have been much more efficient than leaving us to search about the internet.

[Iceaxe]

Perhaps if b.o.b. would have stated this in his first post, we would all be on the same page and avoided the confusion................

x2

I was serious with most of my posts.... excluding the snakes..... ok, I was serious about the snakes too....

But I have no clue who BoB is, what his intentions are, or what information the BLM wants to convey.... and that was never cleared up until Rich helped out.

I asked for this information to be clarified and I also offered what I thought was positive information in pointing to what other BLM offices had done with regards to signage.

Gosh... If BoB can't handle the pussy cats here on Bogley and a little ol' sign he is doomed when he enters the real business world.....

:cool2:

[mattandersao]

O.K. Matt, let's(for Tom) try this and give an honest response:

NO WAY AM I GETTING SUCKED INTO THIS QUAGMIRE!!! I HAVE ALREADY ONCE UPON A TIME FELT THE WRATH OF TOM (hey isnt that a Star Trek movie?) In fact he offered me a whistle as a peace offering! :2thumbs:

Seriously though I see your point. I guess I just read BOB first comment with more of a naive, trusting view of BOB's intent but I do see your point. I think it was just the initial tone. Honestly as I read the first couple comments I was like, "oh no he didnt!"

[CarpeyBiggs]

apparently, BoB is an intern for rich, who "warned" him about bogley (if i was him, i wouldn't broadband that on bogley either...) he also asked that suggestions be sent directly to him, instead of the land manager. then he gets his feelings hurt when people don't know who he is. then he blames bogleyites for their insensitivity. somehow, none of this surprises me. rich has taught him well, it appears.

but as has been stated a dozen times already on here... a simple introduction of who you are and all this confusion and sarcasm is avoided. bogley is a helpful place. but it's members to tend to be a little cynical. don't get your feathers too ruffled champ.

[Scott Card]

I am not cynical, Dan. I just don't trust people. :lol8:

Seriously, I don't trust much that goes on in Zion or with the policy makers there. I am perhaps a bit cynical with my government. That IS American. Zion Park officials have been mostly deaf to any reasonable suggestions presented and canyoneers are treated like criminals when approached for "their papers". Our time is not respected with having to waste a day seeking permits. Without any reasonable suspicion of a violation of law, we as canyoneers are detained regularly and it frankly ruins my "wilderness experience" which the system is supposed to promote. So when I start to see signs and such being considered by a governmental agency on the boarders of Zion I want to know who is asking. I want to know why the question. I want to know if this is a slippery slope to Zion-like regulations in the future. I want to know if owls or people are more highly considered. As was mentioned above by many, BoB, most here don't know you. When this thread started you had posted about 20 or so times on this forum. I know there are lookie-loos on this site who work for Zion National Park and I can only assume that there are others from other governmental agencies reading with no intention of contributing in a helpful way. The internet is mostly anonymous and we don't know who we are talking to until we personally meet or some trusted member posts and says "hey, he is legit" and gives us some reassurance that you are with us. So be patient and take a step back and try again. There are a lot of helpful people here. There are more wisenheimers here but if you know that going in, you can often finds some entertainment value in the off the wall comments.

I am sure you are probably a nice enough person and to me knowing Rich is not a bad thing. I like Rich. I have no beef with him. I like Tom. I like Ice. I have no beef with them either. Heck, I like just about everyone I have met on this site and on the Canyons Group on Yahoo. Just realize that there exists some justifiable cynicism and perhaps paranoia when "the government" is brought up to us who still remember the days of no permits and friendly ranger contact. My 2 cents.

Scott Card (yes, that is my real name and no, I am not the science fiction writer. :haha: )

[ratagonia]

Scott Card (yes, that is my real name and no, I am not the science fiction writer. :haha: )

Thanks Orson.

I think for famous authors, hiding behind a sock puppet is perfectly reasonable.

LOVED Ender's Game. Keep up the good work.

Tom :moses:

[rcwild]

apparently, BoB is an intern for rich, who "warned" him about bogley (if i was him, i wouldn't broadband that on bogley either...) he also asked that suggestions be sent directly to him, instead of the land manager. then he gets his feelings hurt when people don't know who he is. then he blames bogleyites for their insensitivity. somehow, none of this surprises me. rich has taught him well, it appears.

but as has been stated a dozen times already on here... a simple introduction of who you are and all this confusion and sarcasm is avoided. bogley is a helpful place. but it's members to tend to be a little cynical. don't get your feathers too ruffled champ.

Carpey Dude,

You and I have never met, but you seem to have developed some opinions. Based on what you've heard from ...? That's your call. But you really should give a bit more thought to this particular situation. What did I warn him about? Bogley? No. In fact, I told him it was a good forum with lots of great people participating. A place he really should include when he is trying to get word out to the community.

So what did I warn him about? I'll let you try to figure that out for yourself. You are so insightful. Take a look at the thread he started back on June 10th -- http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?55725-Looking-for-different-perspectives Read his first post in that thread. I read it. Sounds like he had some previous communication from someone. Wonder who. Could it be possible that there has been more dialogue not apparent on this forum?

Did he blame all Bogleyites? Not how I interpreted it. He thanked those who actually provided constructive input. Seems clear to me he had issues with a couple specific individuals. Maybe based only on what was posted here in public or maybe .....

[CarpeyBiggs]

You and I have never met, but you seem to have developed some opinions. Based on what you've heard from ...?
facebook. duh. :eek2:


Read his first post in that thread. I read it. Sounds like he had some previous communication from someone. Wonder who. Could it be possible that there has been more dialogue not apparent on this forum?

rich, you are the one who said you "warned him." i don't know what you warned him about, but it's obvious from his previous thread he basically showed up here looking for controversy. perhaps unintentionally? not sure. but yeah, you certainly have his ear, and he is apparently well aware of the "canyon politics," of which you are a key and controversial player. and since he is your intern, it's not surprising he'd be at least somewhat informed by you on the canyoneering community. hence why he is asking for "opposing points of view" from bogley. you don't really have to dig too deep to wonder why people are skeptical, do you?

all i'm suggesting is that if he really wants to hear from the bogley community he'd do well by not ostracizing himself with his first post. :popcorn:

[oldno7]

comments from b.o.b. and answers from Shane:




It has come to my attention that if you are not a regular contributor to bogely and you place a advertisement it is spam, but if you frequently contribute it is ok to place an ad as long as it is not excessive (Is that correct Shane?)



Read the following link, if you still have questions feel free to ask.

Bogley and Spam (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?38666-Forum-Spam)

That is our official policy, or at least it would be if we actually had an official policy.




Therefore I plan to post more frequently so my big advertisement will not be deleted.




We hope that you participate on Bogley for your own enjoyment and for the benefit of other members. If your reason for participating on Bogley is to advertise your involvement would probably be considered spam and your advertisements deleted. Some might find advertising much easier if they just contacted management about purchasing advertising space.

I hope you stick around and become a valued member of Bogley.


Or--post #12 in this thread.(actual version of my cut and paste)

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?55725-Looking-for-different-perspectives&p=458410#post458410

[Scott Card]

Thanks Orson.

I think for famous authors, hiding behind a sock puppet is perfectly reasonable.

LOVED Ender's Game. Keep up the good work.

Tom :moses: :lol8: Where are my royalties?

[rcwild]

rich, you are the one who said you "warned him." i don't know what you warned him about ...

Thought I gave you enough hints to figure it out on your own.


... but it's obvious from his previous thread he basically showed up here looking for controversy. perhaps unintentionally? not sure. ...

You seem quite willing to pass judgment on people you have never met. Heck, you just might be right about me, but you should give James a break. He's a good guy.


... but yeah, you certainly have his ear, and he is apparently well aware of the "canyon politics," of which you are a key and controversial player. and since he is your intern, it's not surprising he'd be at least somewhat informed by you on the canyoneering community....

Until you figure out what (or who) I warned him about, you are just shooting in the dark.


hence why he is asking for "opposing points of view" from bogley. you don't really have to dig too deep to wonder why people are skeptical, do you?

all i'm suggesting is that if he really wants to hear from the bogley community he'd do well by not ostracizing himself with his first post.

Sad that someone cannot be given the benefit of the doubt. Why not welcome him into the family, get to know him, then pass judgment.

[backofbeyond]

Guys: backofbeyond did introduce himself: http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?55725-Looking-for-different-perspectives&p=458410#post458410

I guess he thought that he would have been remembered from the last time he posted. Clearly, b.o.b., the members of Bogley have short memories. :lol8:

Under each person's icon is some helpful tools to assist in determining who is who. :bootyshake: Overall, a concise re-introduction by b.o.b. would have been much more efficient than leaving us to search about the internet.

Your right Felicia I should have gave a little back story on myself and my intentions, If I would have thought it necessary I would have. I posted the exact post on another forum and caught no flack and received positive feed back from people who also do not know me. All forums are not created equal apparently. I will heed the advice of Shane, Tom, old No 7 Ect.. even though I'm sure everyone will remember me now as the trouble maker.

I never once felt personally attacked, I did on my first couple of posts but those were private message form Bogely members based on My supposed A.C.A. connection. I now understand that people are cynical and have some trust issues. I'm glad i'm not that way

Anyway to clarify I have no evil intentions, Yes I am interning with Rich,but my knowledge of the Canyoneering community and the politics is what I have read on the forums. I am capable of making my own decisions this is why I asked Bogely for input as well.So far I have received very few positive experiences with SOME members of Bogely. I know there are two sides to every story and personally I don't care about who hates who or who is paranoid about giving input to somebody they don't know.

One last Clarification,The time I spend on bogely is in no way paid for or administered by the A.C.A.

[oldno7]

Serious question b.o.b.---Does your conference address legally permitted use of public lands?

After all, "ALL" public land requires a permit to run a commercial business on.

What do you think should be the fine for repeated offenses?

[spinesnaper]

Your right Felicia I should have gave a little back story on myself and my intentions, If I would have thought it necessary I would have. I posted the exact post on another forum and caught no flack and received positive feed back from people who also do not know me. All forums are not created equal apparently. I will heed the advice of Shane, Tom, old No 7 Ect.. even though I'm sure everyone will remember me now as the trouble maker.

I never once felt personally attacked, I did on my first couple of posts but those were private message form Bogely members based on My supposed A.C.A. connection. I now understand that people are cynical and have some trust issues. I'm glad i'm not that way

Anyway to clarify I have no evil intentions, Yes I am interning with Rich,but my knowledge of the Canyoneering community and the politics is what I have read on the forums. I am capable of making my own decisions this is why I asked Bogely for input as well.So far I have received very few positive experiences with SOME members of Bogely. I know there are two sides to every story and personally I don't care about who hates who or who is paranoid about giving input to somebody they don't know.

One last Clarification,The time I spend on bogely is in no way paid for or administered by the A.C.A.

B.O.B

The real issue here is not that the Bogley members are cynical. Rather these are highly interested stakeholders. You obviously have enthusiasm for being involved. However this is politics. People trust people they know. I am not suggesting you sponsor a barbecue at the next Bogley Fest (although that sounds like a great idea). However if you want to play productive politics with people, perhaps attending a Bogley Fest so people know who are is a prerequisite. That could change some early opinions. I think if you reread the original post on this thread as well as the original thread related to your conference, you have to admit that there is a certain tone deafness to them. Perhaps you are from a technical background and did not have the opportunity to study writing or political history. Who knows perhaps you will end up being the Superintendent for Zion National Park someday. Even then listen (however poorly) to the stakeholders and addressing their concerns will be a critical part of the job. Without a drop of cynicism, politics is all about knowing who is buttering your bread.

These lands need advocates. I hope you continue to put your energy into these important issues, but to be effective you have to reach out to folks including Bogley folks.

Spinensaper (not my real name)

[hank moon]

LOVED Ender's Game. Keep up the good work.


X2!!

[backofbeyond]

Serious question b.o.b.---Does your conference address legally permitted use of public lands?

After all, "ALL" public land requires a permit to run a commercial business on.

What do you think should be the fine for repeated offenses?

No the conference at this time is not addressing that issue, I did not know this is a problem, I guess I just never gave much thought to it. I will how ever take that as a suggestion. I'm not sure what a proper fine would be. I try and stay out of law enforcement issues.

Spinesnaper I have no plans to be come a superintendent of any NP. There are just too many opposing forces and politics for me and you are correct I missed the political history class and apparently the writing course and that is ok by me since I have no desire at this time to write a novel or become a lawyer. I had more fun not attending.

[oldno7]

No the conference at this time is not addressing that issue, I did not know this is a problem, I guess I just never gave much thought to it. I will how ever take that as a suggestion. I'm not sure what a proper fine would be. I try and stay out of law enforcement issues.



Actually, illegal guiding on public land is a big issue, it seriously affects those who are permitted and playing by the rules. Once you step into land issues, enforcement is a huge issue.
Take Birch Hollow, we all know who the "legal" players are but is there potential for illegal guiding and does it happen? You would be kidding yourself if you think it isn't going on.

I know it goes on even closer to you(Cedar City), when I had a company who's business was teaching canyoneering courses, I had to get a permit to operate in Thunderbird Gardens behind the golf course. While doing so, I was informed by the City that no other organization or company had a permit for that area yet there was always others offering same services in the same area. ( I can give you the name of the city contacts I had, including the City attorney, if you wish)

Or take Benson Cr. up Parowan Canyon. There is no commercial guiding allowed in that area but you see commercial guide vehicles parked there fairly often.

How about Yankee Doodle, I know some of the legal outfitters who guide there but I've run into several others who are guiding, are they legal, I couldn't say for sure.

I mention these areas to you b.o.b., because they are all outside of Zion NP. They require no permit(thank goodness) for the general public to use. But as Zion becomes overwhelmed, folks will find a place to go and these are the most convenient. Their illegal use and over use should be a concern for all parties interested in using these lands in the current form. There's other areas for sure, I'm just giving you a few examples.

[ratagonia]

Actually, illegal guiding on public land is a big issue, it seriously affects those who are permitted and playing by the rules. Once you step into land issues, enforcement is a huge issue.
Take Birch Hollow, we all know who the "legal" players are but is there potential for illegal guiding and does it happen? You would be kidding yourself if you think it isn't going on.

I know it goes on even closer to you(Cedar City), when I had a company who's business was teaching canyoneering courses, I had to get a permit to operate in Thunderbird Gardens behind the golf course. While doing so, I was informed by the City that no other organization or company had a permit for that area yet there was always others offering same services in the same area. ( I can give you the name of the city contacts I had, including the City attorney, if you wish)

Or take Benson Cr. up Parowan Canyon. There is no commercial guiding allowed in that area but you see commercial guide vehicles parked there fairly often.

How about Yankee Doodle, I know some of the legal outfitters who guide there but I've run into several others who are guiding, are they legal, I couldn't say for sure.

I mention these areas to you b.o.b., because they are all outside of Zion NP. They require no permit(thank goodness) for the general public to use. But as Zion becomes overwhelmed, folks will find a place to go and these are the most convenient. Their illegal use and over use should be a concern for all parties interested in using these lands in the current form. There's other areas for sure, I'm just giving you a few examples.

Thank you, Kurt, for replying to both of B.O.B's threads in a positive, helpful manner. Here is an issue that might be of interest to conference participants, and might be of interest to the BLM in Birch Hollow.

Personally, I don't think it makes much of a conference issue. Other Guides:" you guys should enforce your rules"; BLM: "we try". Topic complete.

Tom

[oldno7]

And what seems even more amazing to me, Tom, is that the illegal operators I have witnessed, do so in several areas, not just one.

b.o.b.--you wanted topics for your conference, here is a great one and you don't have to leave home, what thinks you?

I would rank these land thiefs on the same level as DeChristopher and he's doing 2 years.

So maybe theres a reason why companies who teach courses(legally) like ZAC, Excursions of the Escalante,etc, charge more, their expenses are more........

as an aside--when I was teaching, my partner and I charged less than these companies also, we had to, we were the new guys on the block and it was simple marketing.

[ratagonia]

I would rank these land thiefs on the same level as DeChristopher and he's doing 2 years.



Political prisoners?

(but I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one, Kurty).

Zion had a push last year to try to track down illegal guides. Part of the problem is the slap on the wrist is so slight, it hardly seems to be much of a deterrence.

Tom

[oldno7]

Political prisoners?

(but I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one, Kurty).

Zion had a push last year to try to track down illegal guides. Part of the problem is the slap on the wrist is so slight, it hardly seems to be much of a deterrence.

Tom

Yep, that was a little over the top, I apologize for comparing illegal outfitting/guiding to DeChristopher and heres why I was wrong:

They both involve cases of depriving land management agencies of funding and thats where the similarities end..

DeChristopher acted on a very spur of the moment thing, maybe not well thought out and contrived.

Illegal outitting/guiding is very pre-meditated, those doing so deliberately, are screwing the system, a system designed to monitor use of public lands in many ways.

Not agreeing with a management agency is not carte blanche free access to our "public" lands

[oldno7]

As another aside--My ex partner in the canyoneering business we had, got a little miffed at the powers that be. He had his daughter who I believe(could be wrong) was into business law.
She researched some of these guides and found at least one of them, who did not believe he needed permits to operate on public land, also didn't feel the need to be licensed in any city/municipality or any state. I guess when she searched out the business name, it was non-existent.

This company also sold hard goods and collected sales tax..............

things that make ya go hmmmm

[hank moon]

Just got this message from the Kanab BLM Field Office (August 5, 2011 - sent to Zion Adventure Co. and other guide services).

---

For those of you operating in Birch Hollow, we anticipate installing
two information kiosks and a sign-in trailhead register by the end of this
week. It may take a couple of days to put out the paperwork, but we hope
these additions will help us educate all users regarding WSA and wildlife
issues as well as Tread Lightly, Leave No Trace, and canyoneering
etiquette. Also, once we stock the trailhead register with forms, please
instruct your guides to sign in. Besides giving us some useful information
on private and commercial daily use, it will help notify other users of
groups that they may encounter as they traverse the route. One kiosk will
be placed at the turnout along the North Fork Road; the other will be down
at the WSA boundary where shuttle vehicles are typically staged. That
lower site will also be where the trailhead register is positioned. We
recommend that you sign the register when you first encounter it, to
provide the earliest possible notification to other users who might follow
you later in the day. As the canyoneering and hiking season progresses, we
would appreciate any of your comments and suggestions regarding how to
improve communications among the canyoneering community and how to better
educate all users to help us achieve increased compliance with group size
limits and canyon etiquette. (Please note, also, that we do not have a
formal group size limit for private groups at this time. We will try the
education route first; if that doesn't work, we will likely have to prepare
a Federal Register Notice to formalize regulations that would then make it
a citable offense to exceed the group size limit of 12.)

Tom Christensen, Outdoor Recreation Planner
BLM, Kanab Field Office
318 N 100 E
Kanab, UT 84741
ph. 435-644-4609 (tel:435-644-4609)
fax 435-644-4620 (tel:435-644-4620)

[Iceaxe]

Just out of principle I seldom/never sign trail registers as I feel its an invasion of my privacy.... I'm not really goin' anywhere with this... just sayin'

[stefan]

Just out of principle I seldom/never sign trail registers as I feel its an invasion of my privacy.... I'm not really goin' anywhere with this... just sayin'

I thought you liked leaving funny stuff. maybe that was only a few times

[erial]

Do you want to try it, Pokey?

No thanks, I prefer grass.

[Big_E!]

I've gone through the canyon twice in the last few months and it's amazing how much wear was on the gear one month later. I haven't necessarily ran into what appeared to be large guided groups. The largest I've seen was a group of 10 that seemed to be college students out for an adventure. My group sizes have only been 4 total. i'm planning on going again soon with 2 other friends in a few weeks. We'll see the progress on the sign soon.

Bogley newbie Eric

[Iceaxe]

I thought you liked leaving funny stuff. maybe that was only a few times

Leaving funny stuff is not signing in.... no date, name or group size.... but I normally save my humor for summit registers which I do sign sometimes.

[ratagonia]

From one of our guides:



Yesterday I encountered a group of 24 - seperated in two parties an hour apart. This was described to me as a way to overcome the limit on group. We got ahead of the first half but were then caught behind the other half and another group of 16. I ended up leading all 28 (plus my 7) through the final series - big day.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

What is the status of the Birch Hollow sign? Was it installed? Anyone have a picture?

[jman]

What is the status of the Birch Hollow sign? Was it installed? Anyone have a picture?

I posted on candition that it was installed on, or rather I noticed it, in the 3rd week o August. Dont have a picture, but if I recall, there is 2 signs.