Completion of Biner Block Rigging

[ratagonia]

...inspired by another thread...

Don't youse guyz tie off (safety off) the pull side of a biner block, for all but the last person? To me, seems like the rigging is not complete until this is done.

[Deathcricket]

I use a quick draw instead of a locking beener on the top, but yeah, same exact setup.

[Iceaxe]

Nope..... I never tie off the pull cord side, but I also don't tie on the pull cord until the last man down so it would be difficult to rappel on the wrong side of my block considering the pull side consists of nothing but an 18" tail.

If I was rappeling as per the picture above I'd skip the biner block and just rap double strand. Why would you want to complicate the system with a block if you have enough rope to rap double strand?

Outside of class C the only reason I can see for using a biner block is you are using a light weight pull cord. other than that you are just complicating the system trying to show off your knot tying skills to the noob's.

[CarpeyBiggs]

Nope..... I never tie off the pull cord side, but I also don't tie on the pull cord until the last man down so it would be difficult to rappel on the wrong side of my anchor considering the pull side consists of nothing but a 12" tail.

If I was rappeling as per your picture I'd skip the biner block and just rap double strand. Why would you want to complicate the system with a block if you have enough rope to rap double strand?
one obvious situation would be a floating disconnect, where you can set the rope length...

[Deathcricket]

Nope..... I never tie off the pull cord side, but I also don't tie on the pull cord until the last man down so it would be difficult to rappel on the wrong side of my block considering the pull side consists of nothing but an 18" tail.

If I was rappeling as per the picture above I'd skip the biner block and just rap double strand. Why would you want to complicate the system with a block if you have enough rope to rap double strand?

Outside of class C the only reason I can see for using a biner block is you are using a light weight pull cord. other than that you are just complicating the system trying to show off your knot tying skills to the noob's.

I have this re-occurring nightmare that I didn't set my friction right and being the first down, I plummet to my death. So I use a Petzyl STOP and it only does single strand. :ne_nau:

[Iceaxe]

one obvious situation would be a floating disconnect, where you can set the rope length...

Agreed....

I'm not saying there is not a place for a biner block, I just don't think it should be the standard for every drop.

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

[ratagonia]

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

Good to see we agree on a few things, Ice...

T

[Iceaxe]

Good to see we agree on a few things, Ice...

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the pull side was dropped early in both the Imlay accident and the Pine Creek accident.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

also agreed.

but i'll also just say that i greatly prefer rapping on single strand now than i do double, so even when we have enough rope, i usually prefer single strand... just a preference thing. there really is no reason to throw the pull side down until the last person though.

[Brian in SLC]

one obvious situation would be a floating disconnect, where you can set the rope length...

I think that works pretty well for large groups, but, if there's just two or three folks, then, not sure its a big time/hassle saver. Neat to rap off a short end into deep water, for sure, though. More of a stunt than anything.

I rap my pull cord all the time. Helps keep it from getting tangled sometimes.

Devices like the Piranha and figure eight, Gri Gri, Stop, etc, all benefit a bit from SRT type rappelling.

As a climber, I almost never see anyone rigging to rappel single strand. Just not commonly done at all. Why its different for canyoneering is a bit of a mystery to me, except, I think its promoted mostly so canyoneers can be different than climbers. In most canyons here, with no flow, into no water or still, shallow water, without rigging for contingency, I see no real advantage to it. Less friction. More wear on the rope. Higher risk for a sheath tear.

I guess one advantage is that its way easier to ascend a fixed rappel rope with a mechanical ascender (or, maybe even a Prusik). Also gives the opportunity to do a pick off on the other strand too, but, in that case, a contingency anchor would be better.

Anyhoo...

[CarpeyBiggs]

I think that works pretty well for large groups, but, if there's just two or three folks, then, not sure its a big time/hassle saver. Neat to rap off a short end into deep water, for sure, though. More of a stunt than anything.
yeah, kinda. but in cold deep pools, like the ones we had in the grand canyon in february, i can assure you it's greatly preferred to rap just to the water level and not have to disconnect, so you can keep your hands dry and not frozen. it's more than a stunt, it's convenience and comfort.


Devices like the Piranha and figure eight, Gri Gri, Stop, etc, all benefit a bit from SRT type rappelling.
agreed.


As a climber, I almost never see anyone rigging to rappel single strand. Just not commonly done at all. Why its different for canyoneering is a bit of a mystery to me, except, I think its promoted mostly so canyoneers can be different than climbers. In most canyons here, with no flow, into no water or still, shallow water, without rigging for contingency, I see no real advantage to it. Less friction. More wear on the rope. Higher risk for a sheath tear.
i think because you are a badass climber, your frame of reference is different. for me, i've done very little technical climbing, and i never have once thought "how can i be different?" i don't care what climbers do, necessarily, nor do i care what climbers think of "canyoneers." it's simply a matter of comfort and convenience and most of all, safety. wear on the rope, sheath tears, less friction are moot points in my opinion. if you rappel using proper techniques, all those things are easily avoidable. however, there are many times when we ascend single strands, or where there is simply more contingencies available. the important thing is people understand how to rap SAFELY. that can be accomplished in a variety of ways.


I guess one advantage is that its way easier to ascend a fixed rappel rope with a mechanical ascender (or, maybe even a Prusik). Also gives the opportunity to do a pick off on the other strand too, but, in that case, a contingency anchor would be better.
yep.

[CarpeyBiggs]

also, it's a consistency thing for me too. with a lot of the ghosting techniques, you rappel single strand because it uses way less rope (like the sandtrap.) also, when rapping off meat anchors we use single strand (less rope again.) so i simply prefer to always rap single strand, since it is almost always the easiest, fastest, and safest. ymmv.

of course, in zion, some of this isn't applicable. the place is bolted up and "different" from most other areas.

[rcwild]

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the pull side was dropped early in both the Imlay accident and the Pine Creek accident.

I'll take that bet regarding most recent Imlay incident. Rope bag was still on top.

[Brian in SLC]

I'll take that bet regarding most recent Imlay incident. Rope bag was still on top.

Wonder if that contributed to her amazing lack of bad injuries? Yikes. Had the rope been deployed, would have maybe been a much quicker fall? Double yikes.

I need to brush up on my single rope stuff for a possible trip to Spain...hmmm....maybe I'll start a new thread...

[Iceaxe]

I'll take that bet regarding most recent Imlay incident. Rope bag was still on top.

Guess I owe you a chocolate donut with sprinkles...

Just curious.... How did they manage to get clipped to the wrong side? The last rap in Imlay is an awkward start and the pull line would/should have been running back around the corner about chest high.

[skiclimb3287]

Just curious.... How did they manage to get clipped to the wrong side? The last rap in Imlay is an awkward start and the pull line would/should have been running back around the corner about chest high.I'll venture a guess at how that happened...

Any chance the rope bag was clipped into the anchor? I have seen that done before and it worries me that it complicates the anchor way more than it needs to. With this setup (and no backup or safety), I can foresee a loop of rope hanging out of the bag to the ground and back up to the biner block. I think it would be then pretty easy to clip into the wrong rope after a long day. YMMV

:popcorn:

Not sure how to add a quote using edit function. Appears I was able to quote it, but it didn't attribute it... Sorry Ice!

[moab mark]

One of the guys in our group has been practicing his skills and has been LAMAR lately with me going down earlier. Prior to him dropping the pull side I have been tying a 8 on a bite in the rappel strand and clipping into my harness. This way if he screws up I am there as the anchor at the bottom. Gives me a few more warm fuzzies.

Mark

[jman]

I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

X4. However, instead of throwing the pull-cord down, we just leave it in the bag on smaller raps (less than 120) and clip it onto the last person's harness in back. Nick North taught us that. It helps the two ropes from becoming entangled.

[Felicia]

...inspired by another thread...

Don't youse guyz tie off (safety off) the pull side of a biner block, for all but the last person? To me, seems like the rigging is not complete until this is done.

We do.

[trackrunner]

...inspired by another thread...

Don't youse guyz tie off (safety off) the pull side of a biner block, for all but the last person? To me, seems like the rigging is not complete until this is done.

I generally never toss the pull strand and leave it at the top to make it clear which is the correct strand. sometimes I also tie off the pull strand if there is a situation it could be confusing or to isolate two strands. but there are better ways to isolate two strands, joker & stone knot are the most common I use.

I've gone with people that use a clip-draw with lockers tie off. one biner is the binner-block and the other is the safety clip to the anchor. Last person removes and clips to the line for retrieval. Works OK with a clean pull, if a questionable pull problem the draw & safety binner is removed.


In most canyons here, with no flow, into no water or still, shallow water, without rigging for contingency, I see no real advantage to it. Less friction. More wear on the rope. Higher risk for a sheath tear.

Other than Dan's points listed below & other similar situations I'd agree. Agree by usually using a contingency or if using DRT we have another rope up top as a rescue rope just in case someone messes up on the DRT.


also, it's a consistency thing for me too. with a lot of the ghosting techniques, you rappel single strand because it uses way less rope (like the sandtrap.) also, when rapping off meat anchors we use single strand (less rope again.) so i simply prefer to always rap single strand, since it is almost always the easiest, fastest, and safest. ymmv.



I also don't believe the pull side should be dropped until the last person down. I see a lot of inexperienced groups using a biner block and dropping the pull side before the last person down.

Agree. Other than isolating two independent strands why are some of you dropping the pull cord?

[optikal]

Don't youse guyz tie off (safety off) the pull side of a biner block, for all but the last person? To me, seems like the rigging is not complete until this is done.

Yup, we do

[ilipichicuma]

Where we often end up using a pull cord that looks very different from the rope we're rappelling on, this hasn't been a problem. However, I'm definitely going to start doing this. The idea of not having the pull cord in the way while going down is appealing, as well as the added safety

[bshwakr]

__

[reflection]

Interesting how some always make an effort to fashion the "posters" or "victims" experience, to fit their own realities.

IMLAY: Often, folk will NOT carry enough ropes that can be used for double stranding on the last rap. Once advertized as 150, 140, 130...it's actually closer to 120 ft.. It's often fatigue, exhaustion, cold, lack of synergy with others in the group, and sometimes lack of experience that leads to miscues on the last rap here (as in Heaps). If using a pull "line" on the last rap sequence, one option is, after tying the ropes together, to pull the rope bag back in, away from the rap station. There is no "other line hanging. TJ's photo description example though is certainly an effective and safe one, and I believe (aside from the photo) that it anticipates a 2nd rope in the bag.

SINGLE STRANDING. The onset of the pirana and totem lead many to tout the single strand only mantra. Good luck though if one is using 8mm lines where the sheath when weighted or crossed over sandstone (even if carefully watched after) is often suspect. 8 mm lines are used because of their weight...I'd rather carry an 8 and rap on a 9. If I were using "wet" 8mm lines in Imlay, I'd prefer to use two lines & double strand on the last rap. Single or double stranding though is a different issue than "mixing lines" on the last rap and flying down the pull line.

ACCIDENTS: The junior ranger gal in Pine Ck. was inexperienced and the person with her was a complete rookie. The pull cord was thrown down because the ranger was going to go first and didn't want her rookie friend to have to do anything other than connect into the rope and rap down - with a fireman protection below. What was needed that day was another set of "eyes" that offered STOP with the wrong rope was grabbed by the first rapper. Wonder why that didn't happen in Imlay?

STYLES; Comparing climbing and canyon trips is not often an even proposition. Generally I agree with BC's assertions - but the context can often get twisted. At times, because of weight, dues,duration of entry and exit, size of group etc.one will (carry ropes and end up) single stranding on some raps (even with 8mm lines). Some will only double strand on 8mm lines. Frequently some single strand on 9mm lines. Personally I don't think it's productive to generalize, particularly when individual canyons often offer such different expectations and experience in terms of ropes and raps. Like one size fits all? "We always single strand"? (personally I don't dare, with some 8mm lines)

ROPES: Been with so many that claim their 8 and 9mm ropes have never failed. Personally, I've had numerous 8mm Blue Water ropes come loose (sheath wise) at the middle, the end and elsewhere. And it had little to do with rookies sliding the ropes cross the rocks. Wet ropes, particularly single lines, when weighted, are sometimes statistically suspect. Again, I'd rather rap on a wet 9mm line than a wet single strand 8.

Conclusion: Much more productive in my view to address social and experience issues, along with skills and technique as it relates to setting up the last rap in Imlay, and then discussing what causes and how to prevent errors. And the issue as to whether one should "ride" single strand or double, can be taken up in a separate discussion, or split when a commentator makes points. A miracle in my view, or lady luck, that the victim on the last rap in Imlay is still vital and alive. And the on scene wilderness first responder in charge? If the patient is coherent, clear minded and can quickly outline discomfort or numbness in neck, arms and legs; and if partners who are near have "carefully" checked breathing, pulse, trauma and general condition of the patient, then it's they, and the patient, in tandem with the defacto responder that make the call. In Zion, it's often easier, with such a robust SAR system nearby. More difficult call if the same accident happens further into the canyon. Some have easy answers. I've seen accidents, been with doctors when the accidents occured, and they are often perplexed (no instruments or imaging). For some, always easier to talk about other's situations than to actually be in their shoes. And to conform others to one's view. Maybe someone should 'pull the bolts" on the last rap (and through the canyon) in Imlay...and folk can once again, stick lines on the last rap and spread webbing from here to there, and get tangled in the canyon...and the riddle of Imlay will grow.

[Deathcricket]

I think he's mad about something. :haha:

[spinesnaper]

Excreta occuris. Human errors are very difficult to eliminate. There is no replacement for focus. The top of the rap just is not the place to loose focus but it happens. The overwhelming majority of these accidents are not equipment failures. It is not because an 8 mm rope was used. These accidents are are human failures.

Ken

[ratagonia]

Excreta occuris. Human errors are very difficult to eliminate. There is no replacement for focus. The top of the rap just is not the place to loose focus but it happens. The overwhelming majority of these accidents are not equipment failures. It is not because an 8 mm rope was used. These accidents are are human failures.

Ken

Having good, robust habits is one of the technical outdoors-person's better defense's. For instance, Brian weights every rappel while still clipped to the anchor. I bet it may have saved his butt a time or two... especially ice climbing with all that clothing on, and in the dark, cold, wet, tired... etc.

So yes, excreta occuris, however, for those of us that do this kinda thing a LOT, while excreta occuris, I work hard to make sure it does not occuris to dis corpus I inhabit. Some trust that the Lord shall provide, I trust that the Lord provided me with a brain for a good reason, and that using that brain is likely to extend my existence in this corporeal plain.

T :moses:

[Iceaxe]

Excreta occuris. Human errors are very difficult to eliminate.

I kinda disagree with this.... while you can't eliminate human error you can certianly minimize the chance of human error....

pay attention
simplify your system
use good technique

will all reduce the chance of error.

[ratagonia]

I kinda disagree with this.... while you can't eliminate human error you can certianly minimize the chance of human error....

pay attention
simplify your system
use good technique

will all reduce the chance of error.

:2thumbs:

:moses:

[spinesnaper]

I kinda disagree with this.... while you can't eliminate human error you can certianly minimize the chance of human error....

pay attention
simplify your system
use good technique

will all reduce the chance of error.

I am not suggesting the excreta is acceptable. Gravity is very unforgiving. To carry the metaphor, regular habits are absolutely necessary for good canyoneering hygiene. A methodical approach, using a nemonic, taking extra time to check and recheck what is being done, being disciplined in observing what your partner is doing. Studying accident reports is also very good to identify factors that lead to accidents. Not disagreeing with you guys here. There is clearly a reason it is possible to safely canyoneer with very few incidents and being methodical and vigilant is a big part of that.

Ken

[Scott Card]

Great thread. Thanks Tom. My very first thought when reading DeathCricket's thread was where was the clip-in on the pull side, so thanks for posting? Agree with simplicity, redundancy, etc. Of course, I think the older I get, the more cautious I become. I must say, I still like my single strand 8mm rope, biner blocks or other single rope setups, and my Pirana. Just me.

[bshwakr]

__

[Scott Card]

There seems to be a problem with this community that rather than gain group experience in easier canyons, people feel empowered to immediately go for the hard stuff; just tick it off the list! So perhaps it's time for the Canyoneering community to stop being so nice. Let's just call it like it is: anybody can go into canyons, but many have no right being there! Other recreational groups have taken to ridicule; making these repeat offenders into pariahs. I'm not saying they shouldn't someday do the difficult stuff, but there's plenty of fun things within their experience level that can also test their egos.

K
:nod: X2

[reflection]

An effort at civility and the human art of deception, generally keep "experienced and well travelled" canyoneers from pummelling groups/individuals that regularly stumble into accidents. There is a great curiousity when events happen, and most of us I assume, care deeply for the health of the "victims", but still there is that blunt "what the ---" did those people think they were doing...why were they in Imlay...and why hadn't they paid their dues (in other canyons)? I've run into folk that claim they have done 15-20 canyons and yet when they/we come to a rap site, they don't know how to set it up, forget to clip in (if necessary) and don't know options re friction outside of always using rap device A or B. Some folk should stick with trekking or "shopping" and never step onto the canyoneering stage. Generations ago folk incrementally rented, then bought a house, bought furnishings, a car and then kids. These days, it's kids (or house) first, then credit for the car, furnishings and a house as big as the parents. In canyoneering, the constant promotion, glee and glitter of Heaps and Imlay are so strong that too many bypass (the old dues system) and jump right into the "top dog" fray. We want to do Imlay and Heaps and be just like ... And if no more than one in a group has any real "habitual canyon skill system" the rest are going to potentially falter, and the one with the apparent skill set may slip too, if fatigued, cold or distracted. "Connecting onto the wrong line....lets see...maybe it was a relationship squabble...a lack of discourse or harmony..."Bad Religion" blaring in one's ears.. cognitive slips on the free fall stage?" Interesting, these SAR's in Zion...will it effect future permit planning and fees or is it simply chaotic miscues that are part of the current culture of 'some" in the canyoneering crowd? (And to the naysayer; If one is surprised by constant preventable accidents, that tarnish activities we all enjoy, I'd NOT label that as "mad", thank you. It's in the political arena, encountering inept blinded partisan politicians, or cutting a thumb, or being told one has skin cancer....that's when one growls (or laughs) and one's eyes begin to roll.) At times, it's a crazy world we live in. Practice, simplicity and habit displaced by all the apparent "noise".

[spinesnaper]

An effort at civility and the human art of deception, generally keep "experienced and well travelled" canyoneers from pummelling groups/individuals that regularly stumble into accidents. There is a great curiousity when events happen, and most of us I assume, care deeply for the health of the "victims", but still there is that blunt "what the ---" did those people think they were doing...why were they in Imlay...and why hadn't they paid their dues (in other canyons)? ...

Many layers to your comments and the concerns are valid.

By way of disclosure, I have not done Imlay or Heaps but feel that I am making technical progress and at some point, I will be there. In the meantime, I have the pleasure of being in amazing country and in great company.

By and large I think that this community and I mean the individuals who are active on the Bogley.com canyoneering forum and the Yahoo canyoneering forum (mostly the same individuals) do make an effort to socially shape posters here to community norms (including the occasional bashing of goofballs when appropriate).

On the one hand, the community does have a level of skepticism for authority. I don't think anyone would like to see further restrictions on canyoneering in Zion National Park. This necessarily means that the canyoneering community must provide ad hoc leadership, which it clearly does very well, in my opinion, for those who can listen to advice.

Unfortunately, this leadership only goes so far. As Canyoneering grows, individuals are drawn to it from a variety of backgrounds. The traditional "apprenticeship" of gradually increasingly more difficult canyons may seem old-school in some circles. So a strong rock climber may be able to on-sight Sandthrax or solo Neon in full keeper mode but they may lack critical skills that many would feel to be necessary for the well-trained canyoneer. The most technical of individuals should have the judgement to understand their own personal limitations. The real dangers exist for individuals who "don't know what they don't know." The canyoneering community pays a price when there is a misadventure, both from personal loss for those directly affected by the event and the collective impact that these negative events have as a whole.

Canyoneering is a complex set of skills that are necessary for survival in the canyon environment. Only an idiot would try to practice neurosurgery without doing a residency in neurosurgery. I am not implying that canyoneering is as complex as neurosurgery except perhaps as practiced by Tom Jones (Tom, what I am saying here is the you are a obviously a thinking canyoneer).

In surgery, we have done a lot of work on avoid certain types of errors including operating on the wrong person or operating on the wrong site. We have tried to take a cue from the airline industry which has done remarkable work in reducing avoidable error. In medicine wrong site surgery is considered to be a "never event." Prior to the start of surgery, we stop as a team to identify the patient, the surgery, the site before proceeding. This may seem like pretty obvious stuff. However, surgeons often believe that they are above these mundane considerations. Surgical hubris means that these issues will never happen to me. Yet these events do happen even with the timeout process. Implementing a "timeout" has a profound effect of lowering the incidence of these events. Clipping to the wrong side of the rope is our "never event" in canyoneering. Formal training should incorporate this type of systems error approach.

Reading Ghiglieri and Myers book Over the Edge: Death in Grand Canyon one recognizes that men in the 18-27 year old range are probably at greatest risk. This is likely also true for canyoneering. I think continued openness of this community and its willingness to embrace new community members and help them understand the environment they are in and assist them in developing the necessary skills is what will insure the unencumbered future of the sport. I don't see how shunning individuals, limiting access to training, or the vigilantism implied by pulling bolts on trad routes will ever stem the incidence of misadventures. I can see how it might contribute to it.

I guess this qualifies as a rant. My comments are meant to stimulate discussion not offend fellow canyoneers of a particular stripe.

Ken

[tcott]

About a month ago, we came upon a 6+1 group on the last rappel in Heaps. Only one member had ever descended it, the year before. Most members of the groups had only done a few small canyons. They didn't know how to use slings or tie off correctly and they were using totems for the first time on the last rappel. Needless to say, I am pretty sure some member of their group would have been seriously injured or perhaps killed if we hadn't been there.

K

You forgot to mention that they held us up for 5 hours trying to figure it out.

[bshwakr]

__

[Scott Card]

Oh that is painful. I will add "patient" to your list of admirable attributes...:haha:

[reflection]

Dr.; Spinesnaper: In my view, it's a small percentage that view bogley, the canyons group or the ACA site. Information, insight and trainining (even attitude and ethic) for many (others), either comes from partners, or is picked up on the go. Compared to tech trad climbing, "most" canyoneering is (perceived as) easy and the non-initiated don't comprehend or perceive risks that are often apparent in canyons. Also, many don't accept that canyons are dynamic and conditions change. Cold water canyons are a big step up for many, and sometimes folk (here) behave poorly. You end your narrative by noting ("I don't see how) "shunning individuals", "limiting access to training", "pulling bolts on trad routes" will stem accidents. Just who and what were/are being shunned? As to training, most of us have been students and mentors. As to bolts, I/most have never pulled any, and rarely clip redunant webbing if it's fresh and viable. (I know a handful though that love to pull bolts and clip even fresh webbing if it doesn't fit their style.) It's in jest really, after seeing and experiencing how bolts are placed and displaced in so many other zones, that I tossed out the offering, that maybe Imlay should be bolt free and clean.) It's an irony that areas like Arches & Zion have such rampant bolts. And lastly, I've done many canyons with MD's. Once in canyons though I'm not sure that academic prowess equates to ease in getting along with folk and in decision making. (not that that matters?)There are some bright folk that are skill & tech wizards (of sorts), but then we could go through canyons with robots and machines that would never err? With one's life on the line, I'm not sure why some people's "check" system is not more rigorous in canyons. I don't worry about it really, rather it's a curiosity. A lot of very bright people, for a variety of reasons, have "slipped" or been with partners that did the same. Some have died, some have been seriously injured. Does talking about this make a difference? I'm not sure it does, as the "audience" is mostly tuned in and trained. It's others outside the bandwidth (I think) that are still figuring it out.

Imlay - Heaps. Imlay via the shortcut, when it's full of water, is a 4 hr. slog in and a grind (in the water) getting out. Once into the wetsuit though, when the canyon is topped off, the tech portion of the cyn is a breeze, until that last rap, which gives some rookies a pause. Imlay in medium water, swimming-hooking is another very different experience. Heaps is quite a different experience. Even when topped off. In medium water, swimming, hooking, it can be exhausting and demanding. Most do it with partners who have earlier been through.

You (poor) guys that waited 5 hours at the end of Heaps. Do we call that a blessing, manna from heaven? A few years back on the climb up to Spry I met two gentleman that told me they'd done some canyoneering, even been through Heaps. At the first rap - which they didn't know how to set up, I asked again...you said you went through Heaps? And then they offered...we planned to do Behunin, and we were the one's that mistakenly ended up in Heaps and got rescued of sorts. It's a sign of the times I guess. Accidents happen. Canyons a bit safer, maybe, when regular folk travel through and intending to or not, look out for others? And some pass by wayward travelers that hours later, oops, slip and fly rope free, into the abyss. New canyon gear - for those waiting 5 hours; Spot, radio, cell phone (and a mythical gun)...the old al capone rule; getting futher ahead with a kind word, and a gun. Jesting again.

[ratagonia]

It's an irony that areas like Arches & Zion have such rampant bolts.

It escapes me - what is the irony here?

T

[Pelon1]

Dr.; Spinesnaper:
OFF TOPIC
I hope he is a real Dr. and went to medical school which included a residency. That title should be earned.:nod:

[spinesnaper]

OFF TOPIC
I hope he is a real Dr. and went to medical school which included a residency. That title should be earned.

Medical school, internship, residency, and five years of fellowship. But here I don't think the medical degree counts for much (ok, a little something: I can bring the drugs :haha:). Here I am spinesnaper or Ken.

[ratagonia]

OFF TOPIC
I hope he is a real Dr. and went to medical school which included a residency. That title should be earned.:nod:

... cause those other PHD's, they just give those things away. :roflol: :haha: :facepalm1:

Tom

[spinesnaper]

PHD...does that stand for poor, hungry, and dumb?:lol8:

[skiclimb3287]

PHD...does that stand for poor, hungry, and dumb?:lol8:

I thought it was Piled High and Deep :ne_nau:

[reflection]

Clarification; Relating to rigging biner blocks and other styles of anchors: One comment contextually offered. "It's an irony that areas like Arches and Zion have such rampant bolts."

Ratagonia; Emporer of Canyoneering; Tom Jones; "T" replied: "It escapes me - what is the irony here" T

The Emporer most often publicly espouses "natural anchors" in a host of areas. North Wash, Robbers Roost, San Raphael, Escalante, Glen Canyon. He has placed and pulled anchors though in most of these areas. He's also pulled and placed bolts in many regions of Zion. Within approx the past year he pulled bolts in Mindbender and then put a bolt in "K-9" in N Wash, (which was then pulled by "agent Zen".

A contradition between an act or expression; propogating the caricature of an observant canyoneer and yet doning the mask of a bolt placer or bolt puller; a fetish, impulse or infatuation fed by an "illusion", or a twisted sense of reality?

The emporer dons the public mask - natural anchors. But then the next week or month he places bolts, or via his own private inclination, pulls them and rigs not natural, but "unnatural anchors". The new sandtrap - maybe that should be left at rap stations in Zion? Or long ladders in potholes? Zion bolted up, but other zones bolt free (kind of)?

Once upon a time Imlay was mostly bolt free - I/others experienced it that way. The last rap had long slings. Birch Hollow was once bolt free and then the Emporer called the bolter, in printed word, an A-hole. But then times change and ZAC (& other guides) now lead paid guests down Birch Hollow; the canyon is bolted (liability and BLM access). South Oak, industrial bolts, ZAC guides...on and on...bolts here, bolts there, some pulled, some left. Once upon a time, outside of isolated climbing pitons and bolts, Arches was mostly fix anchor free. But then the psuedo canyoneering took hold - guided - and the bolts took off. Why not remove the bolts and declare the zone natural anchor terrain? It's a paradox really, all these endless contradictions...or maybe it still "escapes" the emporer? Or maybe no contradictions, just a sign of summer?

"3,198 Bogley posts" and counting (and endless posts on the yahoo canyons group)...and running a business, and guiding for ZAC...some social scientists are now using the term "internet addiction". It "escapes me" how folk find or make the time. A psychological prism or prison I guess...or apocalypse...get it "all in" before it ends. And/or a sign of the times, an agrarian, hunter gatherer society morphs, slides past industrial, and then slip streams into the constant supernatural "peddling" on the public domain. (I'm partially smitten, but then hope limits/moderation can be a guide)

And the Emporer's subtext reference to "Jesus"; while he touts himself an agnostic? Any contradiction there? "It's beautiful weather", ......as it was pummeling rain and thunder last nite. The paradoxical (irony) hand (mask) that's "played" in (life) "show business"?

[ratagonia]

The Emporer most often publicly espouses "natural anchors" in a host of areas. North Wash, Robbers Roost, San Raphael, Escalante, Glen Canyon. He has placed and pulled anchors though in most of these areas. He's also pulled and placed bolts in many regions of Zion. Within approx the past year he pulled bolts in Mindbender and then put a bolt in "K-9" in N Wash, (which was then pulled by "agent Zen".


Not I, at least in Mindbender. Some other emperor, perhaps. Or your time scale is off.

When I place or pull bolts, I declare them here on Bogley and on the Canyons Forum. I have not been to Mindbender in quite some time.

Yes, I placed a bolt last fall in Constrichnine (aka Project X) in the Poison Springs area, and then expressed regret at doing so, and suggested I would go back and remove both it and the dicey pin it replaced. I do not know of a canyon called K-9 in the North Wash area, must have been someone else.

Tom

[dustinsc]

Agree. Other than isolating two independent strands why are some of you dropping the pull cord?

You ever hear the anecdote about the three generations of women who always cut the ends off their pot roast? The daughter's husband asked why she did it, and she replied that it was because her mother did it. So the daughter asked the mother, and she said because that's what her mother had always done. So the mother asked the grandmother, who said that she did it because they had a small oven and it wouldn't fit otherwise.

The point is, some people drop the pull cord first because they learned from someone who did it first. It originally started with someone who had to go down first for some reason and didn't trust the last guy to remember to throw it down (or something like that, I'm just throwing out ideas here).

Either way, I am for sure not throwing down the pull chord without tying it like that first from now on.

[canyonguru]

That was a lot of turd throwing Reflection at Tom who in most cases people think did more for Zion canyoneering than what QVC did for the Snuggie.

I am just freakin glad i get the rare chance to go experience these amazing places weather they are bolted or not bolted or you need permits for them or not. Who cares about placing bolts and removing bolts or whatever. Yeah sure it is best to leave the canyon how you found it but if i need to place a bolt to get my but down canyon without killing myself you bet i am going to do it. If i was in Toms shoes you bet i would guide people and make some money, in this economy work is work, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

Plus times change and opinions change and technology changes. You can't bring up the past about what happened or what was said because its no relevant now. Anyways thats all i got just be happy that you don't live in a communist country where you would probably get shot if you were caught having fun in slot canyons. :banana:

[spinesnaper]

That was a lot of turd throwing Reflection at Tom who in most cases people think did more for Zion canyoneering than what QVC did for the Snuggie.

Personally I think Reflection stepped over the line with his last post from being mildly insightful but mostly bombastic to being just plain creepy. Hey if Tom pulls a bolt, I am sure it is not needed. If Tom places a bolt, I am sure as hell going to use it. I could careless what religious beliefs he may or may not hold. I do very much hold him in great esteem due to his decision to drop Kelsey's books from his website: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0901kelsey/index.htm

Ken :numchucks:

[reflection]

Excuse me Dr./others; too many conflicts in canyoneering circles these past many years; didn't intentionally mean to upset anyone. Professionally and personally I work to get along with others - that's important to me. Discussion of religion, Kelsey, bolting, pulling bolts, accidents and icons of canyoneering...all mostly out of bounds I suppose. And the past, mostly irrelevant I guess too. We all bring different eyes and experience to this process, hopefully folk know that. My experience & views don't and can't match others. And "that days" tilted style, borrowed I suppose from "that day's private political debate" that shouldn't have made it's way onto these pages. Excuse me again. But so many apparant contradictions...I suppose I/one should just let it go. Best to you all - in the canyons. (K-9, (Project X) verbal abbreviation for Constryc....nine). Maybe a new movie, post 127 Hours....Placing and Pulling Bolts, a New Blue Pool..and new "drama"...I guess, or maybe not? And a side bar in the flick - Who's guide books to buy or not buy and who's canyoneering product to seek out or avoid. Safe, civil discussion should be the rule - most of the time - for most, I believe. I stretched the civil cord, excuse me; but please know, others have stretched it mightily too. But that's no excuse, at least in my case.

[2065toyota]

Excuse me Dr./others; too many conflicts in canyoneering circles these past many years; didn't intentionally mean to upset anyone. Professionally and personally I work to get along with others - that's important to me. Discussion of religion, Kelsey, bolting, pulling bolts, accidents and icons of canyoneering...all mostly out of bounds I suppose. And the past, mostly irrelevant I guess too. We all bring different eyes and experience to this process, hopefully folk know that. My experience & views don't and can't match others. And "that days" tilted style, borrowed I suppose from "that day's private political debate" that shouldn't have made it's way onto these pages. Excuse me again. But so many apparant contradictions...I suppose I/one should just let it go. Best to you all - in the canyons. (K-9, (Project X) verbal abbreviation for Constryc....nine). Maybe a new movie, post 127 Hours....Placing and Pulling Bolts, a New Blue Pool..and new "drama"...I guess, or maybe not? And a side bar in the flick - Who's guide books to buy or not buy and who's canyoneering product to seek out or avoid. Safe, civil discussion should be the rule - most of the time - for most, I believe. I stretched the civil cord, excuse me; but please know, others have stretched it mightily too. But that's no excuse, at least in my case.

huh?