Beta and the Unexplored

[ratagonia]

Moderator Note: This thread was split off from Ropes for Mystrey Canyon (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?p=463698).



115'

http://www.climb-utah.com/Zion/mystery.htm

:cool2:

You state such with such precision and confidence - and I have to admit I have found your rappel lengths very accurate - I wonder how you measure and record rap lengths with such precision?

Seriously, not meant as a troll or anything. My own method is decidedly sloppy.

Tom

[Felicia]

You state such with such precision and confidence - and I have to admit I have found your rappel lengths very accurate - I wonder how you measure and record rap lengths with such precision?

Seriously, not meant as a troll or anything. My own method is decidedly sloppy.

Tom

Actually, I've been holding on to this question for quite awhile, waiting for the right time to ask: How do you beta generators keep records? Do you take notes during your trek? Do you write them down? Etc...

I know, Felicia is a dork, but I get home and I don't remember s**t because I'm too tired.

Just wondering...

[Iceaxe]

You state such with such precision and confidence - and I have to admit I have found your rappel lengths very accurate - I wonder how you measure and record rap lengths with such precision?

Seriously, not meant as a troll or anything. My own method is decidedly sloppy.


Actually, I've been holding on to this question for quite awhile, waiting for the right time to ask: How do you beta generators keep records? Do you take notes during your trek? Do you write them down? Etc...

Since both of these questions are related..... the short answer is I record most of the information with my camera and GPS.

With regards to rappel length's I measure my ropes at least once a year so I know exactly how long they are. Ropes shrink an amazing amount over the years with lengths of 10% not being uncommon (20' on a 200' rope). I also mark all my ropes with a mid-point (and a 1/4 point on longer ropes) so its easy to get an accurate estimate.

With regards to Mystery (or any route that finishes with the longest rappel) I just leave the biner block in (or tie a knot in the rope to mark the rappel length) and measure the rope when I get home. That is what I did with Mystery (exact length was 113' if I remember correctly).

I try to document a route really well with my camera. I take pictures of everything I know I'll want to write up later, rappels, obstacles, trail junctions. If the longest rappel is mid canyon its not uncommon for me to write the rappel length in the sand with my finger and take a picture so I don't have to remember length. If something is complicated sometimes I'll flip my camera to video and record some notes with my voice.

And while I hate "time" length's like walk 30 minutes and turn left in beta (and I never use them any more in my stuff) sometimes its useful to know when you are writing something up and you can look at the time stamps in your pictures to get the information if required.

I usually wear my GPS around my neck and mark anything important, junctions, rappel locations, yada, yada.

I never take written notes in a canyon, but I always write up a rought draft when I've finished that is usually a couple paragraphs and takes about 10 minutes. The rough draft is written on the back of my map and I'll also make notes on the front of the map at this same time.

Whenever I repeat a route I always try and refine my route description. I seldom do a route that I can't improve the description on.

Anyhoo.... thats some of what I do, I'm always interested in hearing what others do or anything that makes spraying beta easier.

[jpratt11]

This is an interesting thread. I've wondered the same thing, but never thought about it enough to ask. Thanks for asking Felicia.

[Brian in SLC]

I write notes whilst in a canyon, at rest stops. My memory of events is terrible. I cross the notes with photo's. Usually can make some sense out of stuff. I take a TON of pictures, some, with video so I can hear the details. Makes a beta type info write up later fairly accurate.

As far as distance goes, I know Evan (from the UK) documents his drops (usually long jumps) with a little tape measure-esque cord he carries specifically to get an accurate distance. Hilarious.

I've used a tape measure on my ropes more than once, especially static pull cords or climbing ropes with a middle mark. Can be eye opening to say the least. Not all ropes are equal when it comes to a length you think you have...

[Sandyfeet]

I have always wondered how you guys figure a route is passible like Chambers? Who would go there not knowing if its passable or not? What about MMI? do you carry 300 footers with you? The first time I did Alcatraz I missed the exit and went down to where it looked like the drop off was at least 250 feet with one bolt,:hail2thechief: I knew this was not in the Beta (which of course was back in the truck at the trailhead)..Do you guys look at a topo and decide there should not be a 500 footer in that canyon? I have been amazed that you guys are able to pick and map these routes, very impressive!:

[Iceaxe]

When exploring a slot with no beta you go loaded for bear!

On the really difficult stuff some guys use a siege approach (Chambers, Pandora's Box) biting off little chunks of slot at a time and fixing ropes, while some teams just drop in loaded with talent (Heaps, Imlay).

How you approach unknown slots depends a lot on where the slots are located. In a place like Zion carrying a lot of rope is the ticket to success, but in the seriously skinny stuff I'd rather have a couple top flight climbers over a lot of rope.

The group of people that explore new slots is really small, just a handful of guys that enjoy the unexplored. Completing a new slot is a lot of work, more than most people understand. And just about everyone I know who does the unexplored has a couple epic stories.

We laugh about this one now.... but.... the first time we went through Zero Gravity we had no beta. We were carrying 600' of rope, large packs loaded with gear, and most importantly, we had the Gregory brothers in tow who can climb just about anything.

Anyhoo.... that's my 2 cents... everyone does it a little differently. Sometimes I look at certain slots like Heaps and Imlay and figure the first guys through those slots must have made a serious clanking sound when they walked.

[Sandyfeet]

Thanks , I have been using your Beta for 10 years now. Yours is by far the most accurate. I may have missed not doing a canyon 2 times and had to come back for a second try and only 1 rap was listed was longer than you said and it was obvious the bolts were put higher up the wall .This was Cameltoe BTW. In a canyon like Not Mind bender it looks longer that it is but I know your data will be good. I enjoy the family fun hikes in the winter with the wife too..

[spinesnaper]

That reminds me to add to my to-do list:

1. Resubscribe to Climb-Utah

2. Get myself a handsome Bogley.com t-shirt.:nod:

[ratagonia]

Thanks , I have been using your Beta for 10 years now. Yours is by far the most accurate. I may have missed not doing a canyon 2 times and had to come back for a second try and only 1 rap was listed was longer than you said and it was obvious the bolts were put higher up the wall .This was Cameltoe BTW. In a canyon like Not Mind bender it looks longer that it is but I know your data will be good. I enjoy the family fun hikes in the winter with the wife too..

Just to be clear --- while trusting a "reliable" source of beta is a good start, it is also good to use a robust methodology, that allows for reality to be somewhat different than what is described. So, bring a little longer rope; make sure the rope reaches the ground. etc.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I have always wondered how you guys figure a route is passible like Chambers? Who would go there not knowing if its passable or not? What about MMI? do you carry 300 footers with you? The first time I did Alcatraz I missed the exit and went down to where it looked like the drop off was at least 250 feet with one bolt,:hail2thechief: I knew this was not in the Beta (which of course was back in the truck at the trailhead)..Do you guys look at a topo and decide there should not be a 500 footer in that canyon? I have been amazed that you guys are able to pick and map these routes, very impressive!:

fair writeup on it here: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0701freeze/index261.htm

and a followup here: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0703roost/index.htm

Tom

[ratagonia]

I write notes whilst in a canyon, at rest stops. My memory of events is terrible. I cross the notes with photo's. Usually can make some sense out of stuff. I take a TON of pictures, some, with video so I can hear the details. Makes a beta type info write up later fairly accurate.

As far as distance goes, I know Evan (from the UK) documents his drops (usually long jumps) with a little tape measure-esque cord he carries specifically to get an accurate distance. Hilarious.

I've used a tape measure on my ropes more than once, especially static pull cords or climbing ropes with a middle mark. Can be eye opening to say the least. Not all ropes are equal when it comes to a length you think you have...

First couple canyons I did, with Brian, we would work out the rappels lengths and sequence after the canyon, over a few beers. Brian does a really good job of writing things up.

After that, generally I measure with armlengths and take notes, when being conscientious (which is not very often). On popular canyons, I carry shorter and shorter ropes until we have just enough to do it. I have a rope-measuring setup at home, so I usually measure ropes before I use them. I once measured a 300' rope we were going to use in Heaps and it was only 270 feet. Yikes! I wonder what I would do, faced with the end of the rope 15 feet off the ground, but I usually go LAST on that rap - who was going first and what would they have done???

Tom

[Felicia]

Shane, Brian and Tom,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your methods. I feel like I've drawn a bit of technique from each you, but I've not been successful it putting the information into writing. Of course, I'm not discovering new routes, I'm just trying to create my own personal record of my adventures.
:2thumbs:

[hank moon]

Tom, you forgot to include two important points:

BringRam
BringRam

[Iceaxe]

I'm just trying to create my own personal record of my adventures.

Back when I was keeping a personal log for my own use it looked like this:

Zion National Park - Subway
Beta: Zion green book (Brereton and Dunaway)
Length: 7:30 from top to bottom
Skill Level: Difficult for hikers, easy for climbers
Rating: Excellent.
Season: Spring, Summer or Fall.
Equipment: 60' rope, Drybag
Water: The entire hike will require 3 liters per person.
Map: The Guardian Angles
Difficulties: handline/rappels to 30'. Several potholes to swim. Several downclimbing problems, several miles of wading.
Circle Trip: Yes, Car spot or hitch required.
Permit: Required, Available at visitors center.
Warning: Flashflood danger
Experience: 5/18/00 - Top to Bottom route was completed in 7 1/2 hours. Group of 6, This was a great trip and good time of year to do this hike.

Zion National Park - Heaps
Beta: Brian Cabe trip report, talk with Bo Beck
Length: 16.5 round trip (Group of 2, partner Mel Brown). Two days, 9 hours day one, 7.5 hours day two.
Skill Level: expert
Rating: Excellent.
Season: Summer or Fall.
Equipment: 300' rope, two 50m ropes, full technical gear
Water: The entire hike will require 3 liters per person.
Difficulties: 300' rappel, potholes to escape, marginal anchors.
Circle Trip: Yes, no car spot required
Permit: Required, Available at visitors center.
Warning: Flashflood danger
Experience: 6/11/01 - 16.5 round trip (Group of 2). Two days, 9 hours day one, 7.5 hours day two. Very Advanced Technical slot canyon. Two 50 meter ropes and one 300' rope. Wetsuit and full gear required. Brian's TR detailed the Gunsight entrance. We entered through Phantom Valley after Mel talked with Bo Beck.

Writing for your own personal use compared to use by others is a totally different animal.

[Sandyfeet]

Thanks for the information. Every time I do one of the canyons you guys write up I think of how you guys take the risks and that I would not do a first ascent. I am glad you guys are good enough to share the canyons with us. I have learned to always to bring extra ropes longer than required along as quite often the scariest part of the canyon (besides Highway 6) is getting the ropes pulled.. We do make sure the last guy down pulls the knots as low as possible before going down.

[ratagonia]

Tom, you forgot to include two important points:

BringRam
BringRam

I have gotten VERY dependent on the amazing memory of Mr. Ramoo, which is why I have gotten way out of the habit of taking notes...

T

[SlickRock]

With regards to rappel length's I measure my ropes at least once a year so I know exactly how long they are. Ropes shrink an amazing amount over the years with lengths of 10% not being uncommon (20' on a 200' rope). I also mark all my ropes with a mid-point (and a 1/4 point on longer ropes) so its easy to get an accurate estimate.



While searching the archives, I stumbled on this thread.

Question... Is it true that rope length changes (more importantly - shrinks!!) significantly over time?

20% is a shocker if true. I could see 1 or 2% or that the rope doesn't stretch as much with age, but that the rope actually shrinks yearly is new on me.

I've never noticed this with the dynamic ropes I've climbed on or the static ropes I've rapped with.

[TommyBoy]

He's saying the rope shrinks 20' on a 200' rope not 20%. Ropes usually shrink 5-10%, I've got two 200' ropes, one that is now 184' from shrinkage and the other is 191', although I haven't used the 191' as much so it might not be done shrinking.

[Iceaxe]

I've never noticed this with the dynamic ropes I've climbed on or the static ropes I've rapped with.

Both dynamic and static ropes experience similar shrinkage. I think it's more noticeable in canyoneering because our rope get wet and dry more frequently and shrink faster.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3