Came across an injured Canyoneer in Imlay (what would you do)

[Deathcricket]

I need some armchair quarterbacking here guys. I had trouble sleeping last night based on the decision I made in a canyon yesterday. :(

So I did Orderville yesterday with some friends. 8 people in our group including two small children about 8 years old. We had a blast but didn't make the best time as you can imagine. Too many polywogs and other critters to play, took way to many pictures of us doing backflips into pools, got a late start, etc, etc, etc. No biggie though we arrived at the junction for Oderville and Virgin around 6:30PM. Again approx times, my cell was in my drybox, didn't have a watch on me, so I could be off a bit on my timeline.

Two people show up while we are inflating our floats for the Virgin and are in frantic mode, a person in their group just fell off the last rap in Imlay, leg broke, they are going to get help, how far do they need to go, who do they even talk to, yadda yadda. We give them info and they are on their way down. A couple of us head up to see if we can help. One guy in our group is a Red Cross First Responder (more on that later).

We arrive on the scene and our first responder guy takes over. Well maybe "takes over" is not the right words, but he starts asking questions and checking the person's wounds, we get her in a warm emergency blanket and we have some inflatable rafts that we were going to use to float down the narrows like this:

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We blow 2 of them up and put her on one, get her out of her wetsuit, and under the emergency blanket, give her some Ibuprofin for the pain. Her boyfriend/significant other is hugging her and she is warmed, up and doing really good. Again I'm not a doctor I just play one in the bedroom. She had some shock obviously and her foot is killing her, but nothing else serious as near as I can tell. Again though, I freely admit I know nothing. Our First Reponder team member is evaluating her still. He is pushing on her leg "does it hurt here, here, can you point your toes?", etc.

So here is the prognosis. Her foot is not swollen at all under the neoprene socks. Never took them off though, that would be too painful. She feels no pain touching the top of her legs, even her ankles are fine. Very very tender underneath (pads of foot) though, but she also mentions she has a huge blister there and it could be contributing. She can point her toes up just fine, but pushing down on my buddies hand is very painful. His evaluation seems to indicate a small fracture or ankle sprain of some sort. She can't walk out of the canyon but nothing life threatening or dangerous like hemmoraging, bones poking out, or such.

I do a little discreet/casual asking the other members about what happened, not too much prodding cause they feel like shit right now, and this is not the time for them to relive this incident. Our main focus should be to survive this ordeal and think about it later. So as near as I can tell (again I didn't press far) she clipped on the wrong side of the biner block and took a 150 foot semi free fall, as fast as the rope can pull through the ring I guess. to the bottom. I've not done Imlay's last rap, but I guess it's a sketchy start and you can only have one person on the setup and she was first down. They say she was very experienced but probably fatigue just made her do a bad judgement call.

So I look over to where she fell and it is literally a miracle. There are huge 1-2 foot river rocks everywhere, but the spot where the rope drops is cleared for a 5 foot radius and there is maybe a foot of water puddle there. Not much to break a fall at all. She is lucky to be even alive. But this will factor into the decision later.

So hopefully I've described her condition enough. She looks perfectly fine except for a nasty sprained ankle basically. It's now approaching 7-7:30ish. I'm guessing the portion of her group that left will be hitting the paved section of the riverwalk by about now, if they were able to haul ass. Another 15 mins they will be able to reach the buses and call the calvary/heavy hitters in. So even factoring best response times ever, it will probably take them another half hour/45 mins to reach the end of the paved section, then another 45 mins to an hour to hike the 2 miles up this nasty, slippery, giant marble playground, carrying a heavy board/liter. So very best response time would put them an 1.5 hours and mediocre response time would put them there and 2.5 hours. And again, how long would it take 4 people to carry a super heavy cart up a well flowing river. I'm assuming 4 of them minimum? What if they had 6 responders? LOL. I'm trying to factor all the equation in my head and figure out crap I literally have zero clue about.

But my best guess is that there is no way they are going to be able to get her out of here before the sun goes down around 8:45. No way..... And it's a narrow canyon and it's already starting to get dark and chilly.

So I take a hard cold look at her. She is around 24-25ish, weighs maybe 125 pounds max. Between our two groups we have 7 more than capable guys who can carry her out of this canyon RIGHT frigging now. We have 2 inflatable rafts that we can use to float her through the easy sections. Yeah we'll go slow, but I think we can get her out of here (the paved section) in 2.5 hours, which would put us around 9:15-9:30ish, not too far in the dark and we have headlamps. Here is a random pic of the area, try to imagine spending a freezing night here.

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I take a cold hard look at the surroundings. There is water everywhere. She is laying on an inflated raft and quite comfortable at this point. But there are 3 more guys in her group that are going to be miserable. Everyone has wetsuits. But there is not an inch of ground around that doesn't have river rocks on it, there is at least an inch of water everywhere, there is a little sandbar maybe 3 feet across and 7 feet long that has water running on both sides that would probably be the only place for them to sleep. And this water is freezing cold and the 100 degrees temps aren't sticking around for long with the sun going down. The Narrows is a cold and getting colder! I'm starting to shiver just sitting there without a wetsuit. Once the sun goes down there will be no time left to make a change in plans.

So I ask our first responder guy what he thinks, he is the closest thing we have to an expert around. He says he doesn't think we should mover her under any circumstances and we should just wait for help to arrive. And we (us) will make sure to get out before the sun goes down and makes the way impossible to travel. He had not done this route before but I tell him its about 3 miles and 2 miles of that are these nasty impossible conditions that makes it very slow going. We ask her what she wants to do and she says she doesn't want to move and wants to wait for help too.

But I just can't shake the fact they we have 7 very capable guys and 2 or 3 girls who could haul her skinny ass out of there. I feel that hypothermia is a very valid concern. They have matches to start a fire, but there is zero wood around and even if they did hike and find a couple logs, I doubt they could make a fire. The place they are staying in is absolute crap and maybe we can at least find a better spot, with sand and bushes maybe to keep them out of the wind. I know these spot exist from last years trip, I just can't recall how far down the river they actually were. I'm guessing the water temp is around 55ish and pretty soon the canyon is going to get to the same temp. And most likely rescue isn't coming due to the extreme lateness in the day. So I plead my case but very clearly state it's opinion more than fact. I would not want to spend the night in that place under any circumstances. In the end they decide to stay and wait for rescue. I leave and mentally beat myself up the whole way down the Narrows. Rolling the 2 choices in my head over and over again and the pro's and con's of each. It's like a no win situation really.

So we are cold, we left all our flotation devices with them, 2 matresses and a 4 inflatable donuts, which could maybe be used for pillows or a backrest or something, who knows. But something is better than nothing. We leave her wrapped in our emergency blanket and really quite comfy I think.

We make good time down the narrows and arrive at the bottom just as two rangers are getting there. One has a huge pack on her back. We talk to them and they are very capable, I immediately got a sense of ease that they would handle the situation well. My first responder buddy gives them all the details of his analysis of the victim in a factual manner. Ranger asks for an exact location and I tell her. I don't know this for a fact but it "seems" to me that they were under the impression that the injured party were stuck at the bottom of mystery! I honestly think the previous two that went to alert gave them the wrong information in their panic. The ranger played it cool but I detected many corrections being made once I gave her this information, a sense of dismay/disappointment on her part. As you may know Mystery is maybe 1/4 mile up the river and would have made a much easier rescue than this 2 mile trek from where they were.

We then asked if we could know their plans and they said that it was too risky in the dark for the narrows, they would most likely have a medic stay the night up there with them and then rescue in the morning. But since we still had 45 mins of daylight maybe they might have a couple other options still available and she was going to research those now with her team on the radio.

We walked the last mile to the buses and passed a lot of rangers coming up on the way with all kinds of rescue equipment. Got to the parking lot at 9:00. Went to Oscars and pounded some beers/burgers with my buddies, went home. I still don't know what the fate was or how it all worked out in the end.

So anyways, I still can't wrap my head around this and would appreciate advice. Yes moving an injured person down the narrows is very dangerous, but she was very light and not really that badly injured IMO. But maybe she had more injuries that could present themselves once the shock wore off and maybe she was worse off than the twisted ankle we detected. Maybe rescue has some backdoor entrance to use and us changing her location would totally screw them up. Maybe one us slips while carrying her down and she falls and smacks her head on the boulders going down, we actually jack her up worse than she is? Maybe she gets hypothermic from us floating her so much. But::::

What if we all carried/floated her down the narrows flawlessly, got her to the rescue crews waiting and it was a happy ending? Plus we would kinda feel like "heroes" instead of "erring on the side of caution pansies"? Maybe my ego is really big thinking we could have saved her from this awful situation and it could have had disatrous consequences. Maybe they all got hypothermia and died once we left them?

:ne_nau:

[Canyonbug]

So anyways, I still can't wrap my head around this and would appreciate advice. Yes moving an injured person down the narrows is very dangerous, but she was very light and not really that badly injured IMO. But maybe she had more injuries that could present themselves once the shock wore off and maybe she was worse off than the twisted ankle we detected. Maybe rescue has some backdoor entrance to use and us changing her location would totally screw them up. Maybe one us slips while carrying her down and she falls and smacks her head on the boulders going down, we actually jack her up worse than she is? Maybe she gets hypothermic from us floating her so much. But::::

What if we all carried/floated her down the narrows flawlessly, got her to the rescue crews waiting and it was a happy ending? Plus we would kinda feel like "heroes" instead of "erring on the side of caution pansies"? Maybe my ego is really big thinking we could have saved from this awful situation and it could have had disatrous consequences. Maybe they all got hypothermia and died once we left them?


Your questions/concerns are valid, however your solutions are also valid. In any type of medical situation the logical and most common response to treating an injured victim is "Don't move them." I find that this response needs to have all other variables looked at in a Canyoneering scenario. Another common treatment response in Emergency Medicine is to not give the victim anything to eat or drink. Again in Canyoneering, this variable should be considered lightly.

From a standpoint in our area, rescue would be hours upon hours away. In a situation where the park service has rescuers that are full time, rescue may be a little quicker. This would be a consideration. The full time rescuers get into a rhythm of how to solve the rescue problems as they deal with them all the time. As you mentioned, had you moved her the whole scenario could have changed. It could have improved, or it could have gotten worse, you'll never know.

One of the older SAR guys who had been doing it for years in our area stated that he feels he should just start carrying a pair of crutches into the Black Hole and make the person walk out instead of dragging the whole litter system into there. Moving a victim is situational in a Canyoneering scenario. Sometimes it would be better to get them going and get them out, but I don't think anyone on this forum can give you a definite answer of what you should or shouldn't have done. The victim is also a key factor in what they are willing to do. It would do no good for you guys to have picked her up and started carrying her out if she didn't want to do it. I think you did the best you could and leaving it to the rangers to finish out was what the victim wanted to happen.

[Brian in SLC]

Tough call. I mean, if her group and her felt like they needed to wait for some litter transport, then, you're good to go. I wouldn't worry about it.

I guess I'd be pretty worried about moving anyone that fell from that height. Can't believe her back wasn't jacked up. Amazing. Must have had some rope friction whippin' through those rappel rings up top. Crazy.

I've helped carry out guys that were pretty hurt a couple of times. Not that hard, and, you can get it done quickly in daylight, that's a huge help. But, with a possible spine injury? Dunno. Tough call.

Good ol' biner block. Yikes. Easy to mess up any rappel at the end of a long day, regardless of the rigging, though. If she wasn't the first one down...or the last...hmmm....

Great photo of the narrows!!

[oldno7]

A fall from that distance has potential for major injuries, both internal and external. Your friend doing the evaluating was spot on imho. Huge risks involved with moving if "all" injuries might not be known.

I feel your pain in having to walk away, but I think the decision was prudent. If she had stepped over a boulder and twisted an ankle, different conclusion. Falling from 130', huge potential and defenitely lucky to be alive. Remember the part time ranger doing the same thing on the last rap in Pine Cr.?

[Iceaxe]

Interesting thread.... :popcorn:

And while I'm here I might as well update my list.....

I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15131

Heaps Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7204

Pine Creek Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13057

Englestead Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17627

Pine Creek: SAR in Zion
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8285

Came across an injured Canyoneer in Imlay
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?57250

All the accidents listed above were a result (at least partially) of complicating the rigging.... More parts.... more crap that can go wrong.... :cool2:

[Deathcricket]

Cool responses so far guys! Makes me feel a heck of a lot better, seriously. I didn't get any sleep worrying about those poor guys freezing, while I'm comfy in my bed, and I truly had the power to get "maybe" get them outta there. I guess I have to agree though it was the right decision to leave them. Hopefully we hear about the ending though.

brian - It's not my pic, just some random one I found hehe. I got lots of pics of Orderville but none of the Narrows, party was over and time to go home by then. But I always feel a visual helps to see exactly what the conditions were like and that pic is very accurate. I was also tempted to take pics of the scene, but that didn't seem fair to the victims. I did notice they had a GoPro helmet hero and the leader of the group did say he was filming when the accident took place. So a video may surface if they choose to release it.

So I have a little bit of an update after talking with a very observant member of our team. I'll quote myself for the corrections.



We make good time down the narrows and arrive at the bottom just as two rangers are getting there. One has a huge pack on her back. We talk to them and they are very capable, I immediately got a sense of ease that they would handle the situation well. My first responder buddy gives them all the details of his analysis of the victim in a factual manner. Ranger asks for an exact location and I tell her. I don't know this for a fact but it "seems" to me that they were under the impression that the injured party were stuck at the bottom of mystery! I honestly think the previous two that went to alert gave them the wrong information in their panic. The ranger played it cool but I detected many corrections being made once I gave her this information, a sense of dismay/disappointment on her part. As you may know Mystery is maybe 1/4 mile up the river and would have made a much easier rescue than this 2 mile trek from where they were.

So the feeling is that the 2 people who went for rescue (initially) were NOT part of the original group. They were random Narrows hikers who just stumbled upon the scene when it first occurred and then went to get rescue. So the entire canyoneer party was only 4 people. Again just an educated guess. I don't have those as facts. Apparently they had ZAC walking sticks (when we spoke with them) and that is a dead giveaway they are not canyoneers. This would explain how bad info got to the rescue team (if indeed bad info was passed). But they would have had no clue as to the location of the accident, just that it was upriver and some lady fell off a rope. So at least that part makes sense. In the future though it might be wise to make sure the people getting help know exactly where you are.

[middlefork]

Because of the mechanism of injury it is wise to suspect spinal injury. In this case once you verify the ABC’s you should have applied manual stabilization of the head and shoulders until the victim can be secured to an immobilization device. Was this done?

It sounds like you had plenty of material to stabilize with. Pads, packs, rope extra gear. Once they are stabilized you can the take the time to determine the extent of other injuries and if the scene is safe to prevent further injury to the victim or rescuers.

It sounds as if there was a probability of hypothermia along with the onset of shock that would suggest moving her to a better location. Again if she is stabilized it would make that decision much easier.

If she was not stabilized on the outset any movement had the potential to create greater harm. That being said it did not sound as if she showed any signs of neurological distress.

That being said I think being trained in first aid is a great first step in being prepared to deal with wilderness emergencies.

[Don]

Yeah tough to walk away and leave someone in that situation. Sounds like you made the right call though.
I agree with Canyonbug that some common advice like 'don't move the patient' can sometimes be ignored in remote areas. It's a simple equation that comes down to 'will this person be in more danger if they stay in this location?'
But in this case you have a stable patient and your main concern, hypothermia, seemed manageable (yeah, they'd be uncomfortable all night but unlikely to die of exposure).
And as middlefork said, given the mechanism of injury you have far more to worry about than hypothermia if you move this patient without immobilization. If she had jumped from a boulder and sprained an ankle it might have been better to carry/float her out, but in this case there are too many other problems that may have gone undiagnosed, that could be made worse by moving the patient.
Stabilize and get help was the best you could do. Offering up some comfort items like a mattress, emergency blanket, and ibuprofen make the stabilization easier and earn mad karma points.

[JONBOYLEMON]

I am no expert, in fact I dont know the 1st thing about this situation, but I would think that spending a cold night anywhere after almost falling to your death, or watching it happen to a friend, just aint that big a deal.

I do however know alot about aviation and aviation accidents, and its almost always not the 1st problem that kills people.

[oval]

I think it all depends on if you suspect a spinal cord injury.

Without any of you being really qualified to discern that, I think playing it safe and leaving her lying down is the safest choice.

Ultimately, it sounds like she was in a good enough mental state to make the call herself. Was she sitting up (sounds like it if her boyfriend was hugging her)? Squirming around? Repositioning herself to get the inflatable under her? If so, she might have been fine, or had a fracture that wouldn't be bad enough to worry about.

Ultimately, you probably did the safer thing for her since you couldn't tell if the spine was involved or not. Better to wait for a real stretcher, imo. That hike out of the Virgin isn't that bad for rescue crews compared to some other areas in zion that would be horrible.

[nonot]

Maintaining anonymity of the group involved:

"While doing a full Imlay, a buddy slipped on a down climb and came down real hard and broke his ankle Sat afternoon. Camped above the crossroads, next morning we left [someone else] with him and the rest of us pushed on to report the accident. On the final 140ft rappel, i ran ahead to report the accident but a gal behind me made a rappelling mistake (clipping into the wrong side of the biner block) and fell the whole distance of the rappel down to the narrows. By some crazy miracle, as the rope was whipping thru the anchor it slowed down near the very end and greatly slowed her crash into a few inches of water. SAR hauled her out last night and she ONLY sustained a broken heel?!?!? Her BF sprained his ankle running over to her, but we way able to still hike out. The other two are still stuck up in the canyon and were waiting for them to be air-evaced out... Nothing short of Epic, in such an amazingly beautiful and rugged canyon and SO glad they were only leg injuries!!!"

later:

"Everyone is now out of the backcountry and being treated..."

[spinesnaper]

Interesting scenario. The difficulty here is extremely limited first responder knowledge. Doing no harm is the watch word. In a cold water environment, I would not be in a rush to strip off the wetsuit. The wetsuit is critical to prevent hypothermia. No rescue blanket will ever be as warm as that wet suit. It is critical to talk to the victim if they are coherent. What exactly happened? Where do they hurt? Do they have any medical conditions or allergies to medications? Even through a wetsuit one can perform a cursory examination, investigating tender area in more detail. Assuming the victim is coherently able to answer questions, determine if there is any tenderness over the spine. Can the person move their fingers and toes?

While it is great to be able to evacuate on your own, assess the capability of your party to perform the evacuation. In the narrows, help is not that far away. Weigh self-rescue against the ruggedness of the the travel corridor and the fact that search and rescue personnel will have appropriate resources to keep the injured victim warm and comfortable until it is safe to carry out an evacuation. If you had determined the injury was limited to the ankle and were able to stabilize the ankle, it might have been possible to carry out the evacuation given the size of the group. Bear in mind, that river in high flow conditions is very difficult to walk in even when nothing is injured. I think under the circumstances, keeping the victim warm,comfortable, and in good spirits until help arrived was the right call here.

Ken

[accadacca]

Maintaining anonymity of the group involved:

"While doing a full Imlay, a buddy slipped on a down climb and came down real hard and broke his ankle Sat afternoon. Camped above the crossroads, next morning we left [someone else] with him and the rest of us pushed on to report the accident. On the final 140ft rappel, i ran ahead to report the accident but a gal behind me made a rappelling mistake (clipping into the wrong side of the biner block) and fell the whole distance of the rappel down to the narrows. By some crazy miracle, as the rope was whipping thru the anchor it slowed down near the very end and greatly slowed her crash into a few inches of water. SAR hauled her out last night and she ONLY sustained a broken heel?!?!? Her BF sprained his ankle running over to her, but we way able to still hike out. The other two are still stuck up in the canyon and were waiting for them to be air-evaced out... Nothing short of Epic, in such an amazingly beautiful and rugged canyon and SO glad they were only leg injuries!!!"

later:

"Everyone is now out of the backcountry and being treated..."
Man the story keeps getting better... :popcorn:

[Deathcricket]

Maintaining anonymity of the group involved:

"While doing a full Imlay, a buddy slipped on a down climb and came down real hard and broke his ankle Sat afternoon. Camped above the crossroads, next morning we left [someone else] with him and the rest of us pushed on to report the accident. On the final 140ft rappel, i ran ahead to report the accident but a gal behind me made a rappelling mistake (clipping into the wrong side of the biner block) and fell the whole distance of the rappel down to the narrows. By some crazy miracle, as the rope was whipping thru the anchor it slowed down near the very end and greatly slowed her crash into a few inches of water. SAR hauled her out last night and she ONLY sustained a broken heel?!?!? Her BF sprained his ankle running over to her, but we way able to still hike out. The other two are still stuck up in the canyon and were waiting for them to be air-evaced out... Nothing short of Epic, in such an amazingly beautiful and rugged canyon and SO glad they were only leg injuries!!!"

later:

"Everyone is now out of the backcountry and being treated..."

Did I meet you at the buses and were you wearing a blue shirt? I heard this exact story from a guy there. But I immediately dismissed it because there is no way that could be true. What are the chances of two people breaking ankles on the same trip from the same group? Oh man! If this is true though. I am so glad she made it out that night and everyone from your group is ok. That is really good news! Totally appreciate the update man. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

Man the story keeps getting better... :popcorn:

x2

46448

[Felicia]

Too many SARs...not good. :-(

It's good to hear that all are OK.

[Bo_Beck]

What are the chances of two people breaking ankles on the same trip from the same group?

Add a broken ankle 2/3 of the way down the entrance into Mystery on the same day! Hmmmmmmmm?

[Jaxx]

Here is a picture of the anchor at the last rap. It is set up with a long piece of webbing anchored about 6 feet back from the edge and it runs to the rap anchors. It worked perfectly to clip the safety line in there and safely make your way around the corner to the anchor chains and set up the anchor/rope/biner block. Our 200 footer wasn't long enough (as expected) and so we had to biner block. I tested and weighted my rap device before unclipping my safety line.

46449

It took us about 2 hours to rap from the last rap to the buses when we did Imlay. Crappy exit for a rescue.

I don't think there is much more you could have done. Getting her out would probably take you twice as long atleast. That puts your group in some discomfort at best, danger of other injuries at worst. I think you handled it well. With little kids with me I wouldn't have hesitated to leave the other group. Im a jerk I guess but those kids are my 1st responsibility.

I have to disagree with spinesnaper on the wetsuit though. The wetsuit makes me feel colder. It holds the water for a long time. Without the wetsuit atleast your skin can dry out. Hopefully the clothes are quick dry also.

[Deathcricket]

Here is a picture of the anchor at the last rap. It is set up with a long piece of webbing anchored about 6 feet back from the edge and it runs to the rap anchors. It worked perfectly to clip the safety line in there and safely make your way around the corner to the anchor chains and set up the anchor/rope/biner block. Our 200 footer wasn't long enough (as expected) and so we had to biner block. I tested and weighted my rap device before unclipping my safety line.

It took us about 2 hours to rap from the last rap to the buses when we did Imlay. Crappy exit for a rescue.

I don't think there is much more you could have done. Getting her out would probably take you twice as long atleast. That puts your group in some discomfort at best, danger of other injuries at worst. I think you handled it well. With little kids with me I wouldn't have hesitated to leave the other group. Im a jerk I guess but those kids are my 1st responsibility.

I have to disagree with spinesnaper on the wetsuit though. The wetsuit makes me feel colder. It holds the water for a long time. Without the wetsuit atleast your skin can dry out. Hopefully the clothes are quick dry also.

I love you man! :hail2thechief:

I was hoping to see what the start looked like, thank you. And yeah I worded that "wetsuit" portion poorly. She had some quick drying clothes I believe. We all turned our backs and gave them privacy to change, but I do know for sure she had a fluffy dry plaid sweater on, and a welmade furry hoodie over her head. Plus a nice emergency blanket over all that to really keep the heat in. So she just left her wetsuit socks on because that was the injured area. So it wasn't like she was wet and half naked under this thin metalic 1/16th inch emergency blanket with air mattress under. :cold:

Sorry bad explaining on my part. I'm typing sentences in between tasks at work and I see it wasn't the most well written documentation haha.

[Deathcricket]

Add a broken ankle 2/3 of the way down the entrance into Mystery on the same day! Hmmmmmmmm?

:haha: When we were waiting for rescue, I was thinking to myself "If it was Bo, they might be here in half the time. I hope I see him any second now..."

[spinesnaper]

I have to disagree with spinesnaper on the wetsuit though. The wetsuit makes me feel colder. It holds the water for a long time. Without the wetsuit atleast your skin can dry out. Hopefully the clothes are quick dry also.

Of course YMMV. My point is one needs to evaluate the best approach here. If the plan was for self rescue, getting that wetsuit back on over a broken ankle could be pretty challenging. Also putting on a shell over a wetsuit will stop evaporative cooling. Presumably one is wearing more than a 3/2 wetsuit coming out of Imlay. On the other hand if there is plenty of dry warm gear and you are staying put, of course one will be much more comfy in regular clothes.

Ken

[ratagonia]

You can "buy your way into" the decision-making process by taking a Wilderness First Responder class. The person with medical training is technically "in-charge" until replaced by someone with a higher level of certification - in this case it would be the Park Medic.

Given what you stated, I am with you. START out, at the very least. A lot of it has to do with presentation - how do you present it to engage everyone in the 'good idea'. I would have presented it as: "let's try this - there are much better places to hang out downstream, let's give this a try, slowly, and see how it goes". There are some valid points regarding possible spinal - I have an advantage in both having broken my back and having been trained in how to clear a spine. So I could possibly clear the spine. While a large fall would indicate potential for a spinal problem, the lack of serious obvious injury when hitting the bottom makes this less of a problem.

But don't feel bad. Without a WFR you have no responsibility. You want the responsibility, get your WFR.

In this kind of potential self-rescue, momentum has a big effect. If things are stopped, they tend to stay stopped. If you can get things moving slowly, they will tend to stay moving. Moving gets people engaged, entertained and helps keep them warm. Get that party moving downcanyon, and you might find out that Ms. Broken Heel can make 1/2 a mile an hour downcanyon, and everyone can be out by 2 in the morning. Getting the group moving opens up thinking for other people, in which case, it may be best for half of their group to head out, go get their car, and bring stuff back up-canyon for the rest of the people to be warmer for the rest of the night. etc. etc. Group stopped means, in general, nothing happens.

Jeesh, incompetence is giving the biner block a bad name. Don't you guyz tie-off the other side, at least?

Tom

[Deathcricket]

As usual Tom you make some very good points. I guess the only thing holding up the decision is she fell so far, I couldn't believe she was still breathing, really. So yeah my presentation was very very weak when I made it. And I'm not surprised it wasn't well received. I myself had very little confidence in it, haha. But I think I will learn from this experience and maybe when there isn't any signs of trauma, be a little more convincing in my argument next time. I mean it was a dead giveaway when she lifted herself up so we could slide the mattress under her, and the fact she was able to get her wetsuit off and into dry clothes with only her BF's assistance. And the emergency blanket was a sleeping bag type, she lifted her legs both simultaneously so we could slide it over her. I don't think a severely injured person would be able to accomplish those events. Looking back that should have been obvious, I guess.

Another factor that went through my head that I was probably unconscious about, is that we had just taken two very young children through some serious obstacles and made absolutely sure they were safe at all times. We had to take special precautions at every downclimb and kinda made a game out of it. I'm just going through my video footage today.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6oHj9r2DxE

As you can see we had multiple people covering the kids at all times and after doing this for 8 hours, my mindset was probably "well she is just a bigger kid, I know how to get her out of here with us". In the end though, if we had moved her and caused more damage, I would probably never forgive myself for that. Suggesting WFR is also a great idea. Having knowledge in this would be a good idea either way. I'm going to look into it.
:2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

As usual Tom you make some very good points. I guess the only thing holding up the decision is she fell so far, I couldn't believe she was still breathing, really. So yeah my presentation was very very weak when I made it. And I'm not surprised it wasn't well received. I myself had very little confidence in it, haha. But I think I will learn from this experience and maybe when there isn't any signs of trauma, be a little more convincing in my argument next time.

Another factor that went through my head that I was probably unconscious about, is that we had just taken two very young children through some serious obstacles and made absolutely sure they were safe at all times. We had to take special precautions at every downclimb and kinda made a game out of it.

(video)

As you can see we had multiple people covering the kids at all times and after doing this for 8 hours, my mindset was probably "well she is just a bigger kid, I know how to get her out of here with us". In the end though, if we had moved her and caused more damage, I would probably never forgive myself for that. Suggesting WFR is also a great idea. Having knowledge in this would be a good idea either way. I'm going to look into it.
:2thumbs:

ZAC does a WFR each fall and spring with WMA, http://www.wildmed.com/ which is the best outfit for doing WFR's. I took a WFR in Salt Lake before moving down here, got the card, and...

Gotta say, when I renewed my WFR with WMA, I learned a whole bunch, and was WAY more competent in the field. I have renewed again with WMA, and I am pretty sure, now, I will do what is best for the patient in the field. I think the WMA WFR is worth roughly 2X what a "regular" WFR is worth.

While a WFR is required for guiding, I am very happy to have this training when out on my own. It has proven useful. I was first-on a horse-car accident in the middle of nowhere, Nevada - and was really happy to have training. Thankfully, no significant injury there. In general, when out in the wild, I can do about as much as anyone else, other than a real doctor. So if something happens, and especially if someone dies in my care, most likely while I will feel very, very bad, at least I will know that I did all that was possible for them.

Tom

[nonot]

Did I meet you at the buses and were you wearing a blue shirt? I heard this exact story from a guy there. But I immediately dismissed it because there is no way that could be true. What are the chances of two people breaking ankles on the same trip from the same group? Oh man! If this is true though. I am so glad she made it out that night and everyone from your group is ok. That is really good news! Totally appreciate the update man. :2thumbs:

No, I was not even in the state. But that may have been a different member of the group involved.

[rcwild]

Deathcricket,

Talked with someone who was in the group. They said you were amazing and provided exactly what they needed at the time. Passing along their thanks.

[Deathcricket]

Awww that is wonderful to hear, thanks Rich. :2thumbs:

[Iceaxe]

DeathCricket = Canyonman Junior Grade

:2thumbs:

[Brian in SLC]

Jeesh, incompetence is giving the biner block a bad name. Don't you guyz tie-off the other side, at least?

Gives all rappelling, no matter the method, a bad name.

I try to impart a safety check protocol. Clip into the anchor. Rig your device. Go fully on rappel, check it to see if functions properly. Then, unclip and descend.

I think a quickdraw for clipping the pull side of a biner block into the anchor should be standard for all but the last person. How about a bottom belay? Not sure that would have mattered if the pull cord wasn't managed as well as the rap side.

Struggling with imparting the seriousness of this rappelling thing to folks. I hate to bring up death and serious injury to make a point...but...it is serious stuff. You f' it up, you could die. Yeah, kills the fun mood, don't it? Better'n than being killed. Maybe I need to soften it up, though.

Instead of a biner block being standard fare, maybe its too bad a contingency anchor rigging isn't more common. That always begs for a tie off at the anchor. And, is way more useful if someone has an issue while on rappel.

Biner block just isn't that useful a tool, except, to keep from having to pass a knot if your rope lengths don't add up for a longer rappel. I still wonder why folks bother with it when they have enough rope to just rappel double. Seems like a silly thing to rig when your ropes are long enough to begin with. Of course, making sure you have both ropes engaged should be standard for a double rope rappel too...(with bad consequences if that is f'd up too).

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

[jpratt11]

Super interesting thread everyone. I love all the comments. I think my first many canyons I relied on those with experience to check everything for me, now that I'm a few years into it I don't feel safe on rap without checking it myself. We almost always plan on a dual strand rappel unless it's not feasible to set up. We just keep it simple. The most complicated of a set up we usually do is tying 2 200ft ropes together. That being said I have read up on all many canyoneering techniques including biner blocking. I don't want to use it unnecessarily, but I like to have it in my arsenal if needed. Having rappelled on biner block once I can say it seems like rappelling the wrong line is a decently easy mistake to make. When I did it I hooked in then traced my rope back to the anchor and made sure I was on the correct side before heading off. I was probably 10 hours into the hike so possibly for a fatigue error was there. It's always good to hear discussions on how keep yourself more safe. I hate to hear tragedies, but honestly they put me in check and make me want to double check my set ups. Stay safe out there.

[Scott Card]

Dang, I was a day early for this incident and sounds like I missed the chance to meet the infamous Death Cricket. I was in the Narrows that very time and at the mouth of Orderville with one of my buddies and his family. He is an orthopedic (Sports Medicine) doc but, we were a day early. Obviously had we come across that situation he would have taken over. Had he not been there, I would have offered to help having been WFR certified last year. Honestly, had she been cleared, including her spine and noggin, I would have splinted her and probably would have tried to move her out or at least meet the rangers half way. But I also know that the park is well equipped to handle things in the Narrows quite quickly. If memory serves me correctly, don't they have a special narrows litter to evacuate the injured? Anyway, DC, I think your decision was just fine with the injury you described, equipment and training everyone had. No need to lose sleep imho.

This incident also explains the lack of rangers at the exit of the Subway...

[Deathcricket]

Dang, I was a day early for this incident and sounds like I missed the chance to meet the infamous Death Cricket.

Haha I have been waiting for a chance to meet the mapleton crew, what a bummer I missed ya. I was doing Pine Creek with a bunch of noobs on the day you were in Orderville, too funny. Thanks for the encouragement. :2thumbs:

[trackrunner]

This incident also explains the lack of rangers at the exit of the Subway...

still always an opportunist for ranger encounters at subway :lol8:

[nonot]

Biner block just isn't that useful a tool, except, to keep from having to pass a knot if your rope lengths don't add up for a longer rappel. I still wonder why folks bother with it when they have enough rope to just rappel double. Seems like a silly thing to rig when your ropes are long enough to begin with.

It's a tool like anything else. There are good times to use it, bad times, and meh times. It can be useful for situations where you are more worried about the pull - if it sticks it's easier to ascend with it blocked. Of course blocking it could make the pull harder, it depends.

It can make rescue easier. Much harder to rerig toss and go into a lower.

[Jaxx]

Of course YMMV. My point is one needs to evaluate the best approach here. If the plan was for self rescue, getting that wetsuit back on over a broken ankle could be pretty challenging. Also putting on a shell over a wetsuit will stop evaporative cooling. Presumably one is wearing more than a 3/2 wetsuit coming out of Imlay. On the other hand if there is plenty of dry warm gear and you are staying put, of course one will be much more comfy in regular clothes.

Ken

I think we are on the same page here. You probably don't want to rush taking off the wetsuit in case she did have other injuries.

[Scott Card]

still always an opportunist for ranger encounters at subway :lol8:
Well darn it, someone affiliated with the Park is gonna listen to me rant about the permit system if the higher-up won't.
:haha:

[canyonguru]

I asked this in another post but so far we had a broken ankle at the Crossroads, a broken heal at the Imlay exit Rap. and another broken ankle on the mystery enterence 3/4 of the way down. all happened yesterday? Man that is crazy.

I did see the Heli dropping into the canyon from the back side of the Observation trail looking twards Angels Landing but i had no idea all that was going on. We were back to the Pizza Noodle by 3:30

[CarpeyBiggs]

I asked this in another post but so far we had a broken ankle at the Crossroads, a broken heal at the Imlay exit Rap. and another broken ankle on the mystery enterence 3/4 of the way down. all happened yesterday? Man that is crazy.

no, the imlay epic happened on the weekend.

[middlefork]

I think Tom made the best point. Buy your way into the decision making process. If it is very serious chances are they are not going to make it anyway.

[canyonguru]

Ok thanks for the clarification. Bo said in my other post that the Heli was for a couple of climbers.

[oval]

Gives all rappelling, no matter the method, a bad name.

I try to impart a safety check protocol. Clip into the anchor. Rig your device. Go fully on rappel, check it to see if functions properly. Then, unclip and descend.
Testing while backed up proves it's worth in gold, time and time again. Everyone would do well to heed these words.


...

Biner block just isn't that useful a tool, except, to keep from having to pass a knot if your rope lengths don't add up for a longer rappel. I still wonder why folks bother with it when they have enough rope to just rappel double. Seems like a silly thing to rig when your ropes are long enough to begin with. Of course, making sure you have both ropes engaged should be standard for a double rope rappel too...(with bad consequences if that is f'd up too).

Going to agree with this sentiment as well. Sometimes people just get into the mode of doing the same thing (biner block) every single time, when in many cases, doing a double rope rappel would eliminate the chance of human error (rapping the wrong side) and also increase the frictional control of the rappel (how many "got going to fast" errors have we heard of?).

Don't be afraid to double strand rap... you dont JUST have to single rope technique in every scenario.

[canyonguru]

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

[ilipichicuma]

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

That could turn into a LOT of rope sometimes...

[bshwakr]

__

[ilipichicuma]

Isn't it the 'lot of rope' mindset that has encouraged the use of pull cords and biener blocks? Canyoneering is a team sport, weight can be distributed, shorter ropes can be used in a variety of situations. Perhaps those who are concerned about weight and difficulty should stick to the Keyholes and Pine Creeks.

I understand that, and I prefer rappelling double strand because of the added safety (and especially the added control). However, I feel like it could be taken to excess, and there are plenty of situations where rappelling double strand is just not as viable an option, for example on really long drops. I hope I'm not putting my foot in my mouth here, but that's my opinion. I think if everyone pays attention and it's rigged correctly the biner block is a totally acceptable method. But, we digress from the original topic of this thread.

[ratagonia]

I double everything pretty much. It is fast and there is verry little room for error. I also always carry enough rope to double the longest rap.

Don't mean to pick on you, Guru, so please don't take it that way. But...

I am concerned that there is a belief that using "Method A" rather than "Method B" produces "verry little room for error". Perhaps CanyonGuru was lobbing in a soft one, but I am sure he has typed the word 'very' many, many times in his life, and yet... I think this is a VERY DANGEROUS way to think about technical skills. :crazy: :nono:

I hold that the particular method does not matter so much as being proficient in what you are doing, and paying attention at all times. Using double-rope technique, there are MANY opportunities for error (that's a "don't kid yourself" statement). There are many ways to improve the robustness of any system (using robustness to mean resistance to error, and minimizing consequences when an error is made) - such as tying the pull strand off to the anchor when using single rope technique, or adding a Stone Knot when using double rope technique.

Really, really, REALLY - what counts is being proficient at what you are doing, and paying attention. :cool2:

So get proficient.

Proficiency comes from learning, being trained, practicing and teaching. Teaching improves your proficiency better than anything else. If you are the most proficient person in a canyon group, you should not be setting any anchors. If you are the least proficient, even your first canyon, you should be setting the MOST anchors. Explaining how to do things, and why you do things, leads to greater understanding of how and why. = proficiency. I think we would all be safer out there if we did this on a regular basis (when appropriate).

By "being trained", I mean deliberate, thorough training - not just picking something up by seeing your buddy do it once or twice (as in that accident in Pine Creek). You can train each other by examining what you do as a group, discussing pros and cons, what people like about it and don't like, when you think you should use it or not; ways to make it better (more robust); things to watch out for. Etc. I think adding some deliberateness to our passage through the canyons is the best way to improve the safety of the community. Not lobbying people to use one style rather than another.

Tom :moses:

[Scott Card]

Isn't it the 'lot of rope' mindset that has encouraged the use of pull cords and biener blocks? Canyoneering is a team sport, weight can be distributed, shorter ropes can be used in a variety of situations. Perhaps those who are concerned about weight and difficulty should stick to the Keyholes and Pine Creeks.

k Yes and no to your question. I like the options of biner blocks with the pull side rope at the anchor "in the event of" what ever. I like them to set the length of rappel for effeciency with large groups. Also water disconnects. Lots of reason for biner blocks with the right group and individuals. Lots of reasons to not use them in many situations or groups if you have sufficient rope at the top of the rap to effect rescue should the event arise.

Now that being said (and having said this before) the Mapleton boys usually go heavy on the ropes. Our Heaps trip a couple of years ago comes to mind when he had our limit of 6 people available to carry ropes. We carried two 300 foot-ers, a 200'er, two 120'ers and and a couple of 50's if memory serves me correctly. That is about 1140 feet of rope we carried. It made me feel all warm and fuzzy with all that rope in our group. :haha: Seriously, I see no need to skimp on rope. I tend to think in worse case scenario anyway.

Also, I am not a pull cord kinda guy. Seems a waste to me. I'd rather lug a couple more pounds and have useful rope.

[bshwakr]

__

[Iceaxe]

There have been many groups over the years that have mistaken information for experience.

And I'd add to that.... there are many canyoneers who mistake being led through a canyon with "doing" a canyon..... and while both are fun and legitimate descents, there is a difference....

Sometimes I think so-n-so hears his buddy did <insert name here> with Canyonman and figures if his no talent buddy can do the canyon he can too....

:cool2:

[Scott Card]

And I'd add to that.... there are many canyoneers who mistake being led through a canyon with "doing" a canyon..... and while both are fun and legitimate descents, there is a difference....

And I would add A BIG FAT DIFFERENCE. Doing a canyon and leading a canyon are two entirely different things.

[ratagonia]

There have been many groups over the years that have mistaken information for experience.


And ambition for competence.

T

[Scott Card]

and youth and strength for wisdom and skill....



I wish I had ALL that stuff.

[oval]

Really, really, REALLY - what counts is being proficient at what you are doing, and paying attention. :cool2:

So get proficient.



Tom :moses:

:2thumbs:

This is true!
*********

Also, though, I'd say that all proficiency being equal,SRT has more chances of humman error than DRT. There are more steps required to set up a SRT to ensure safety.

If you run SRT like most people that I've encountered, then you don't have it tied off, you simply have a biner block on one side, and people make sure to clip into the proper side. No problem if you always clip into the proper side. Big problem if you dont.

With DRT, you always clip into both strands, which does eliminate the "wrong side" problem, and also eliminates the extra steps required with SRT that can be taken to eliminate the "wrong" side problem.
**********
I think Tom hit's the nail on the head though, you want to be proficient with the techniques you use; really proficient, not just in theory. Just because I argue that DRT has less places to fail due to Human Error, it doesn't mean that you should never use SRT.

[ratagonia]

Also, though, I'd say that all proficiency being equal,SRT has more chances of humman error than DRT.

I believe Clarke's third law applies here:



Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Well, that may be a little oblique.

The method YOU use seems to be simple. That is one reason you use it. Also, by using it, it becomes conceptually simpler.

The method I use is very simple. For me. Simple to practice, simple to understand, simple to teach, simple to learn. For me.

I understand Brian BDC is switching over to quadruple rope technique. After he has had a few years of practice with it, it will seem extremely simple. To him.

When I teach one-day courses, I start with double rope technique. If the students have never rappelled before, we usually do not concentrate on ropework much, and they end the day with a strong understanding of double rope technique. I usually show them single rope technique, so if offered a single rope rappel in a canyon, they can understand that it is a valid technique, and have an idea of what adjustments to make. But, your basic beginner one-day-basic student, time is better spent on other issues than setting up biner blocks etc. etc... and... much less benefit to the beginner canyoneer to learn single rope technique.

Jes sayin'...

Just sayin', Oval, that while the technique you use is simple, I like using my technique because it uses MAGIC!

Tom :moses:

[rick t]

seems like we have wandered quite a bit from the original accident topic here. I think the question should be not what kind of a system did this victim set up to do this rap with, but rather where were the other 3 people on this trip, and how is it that no one else took the time to look at or check the rap set up before the first person clipped in and took off. Unless she was the leader on this trip, and that seems unlikely given what transpired, it was incumbent for at least one other person to see what was set up, how, and to double check it before anyone clipped in. i understand that the group was somewhat stressed by what happened earlier in the canyon, but to me it seems like that should have been all the more reason for care, vigilence, and double checking each other and each set up. The group/team concept was mentioned earlier, and repeated when it came to carrying rope- but hauling a few lbs of nylon or poly thru the canyons pales in importance with people putting their life on the line every time they clip into a rope, this is where things have to be checked and double checked before the commitment is made to step over that edge.

rick t

[dougr]

A fall from that distance means likely internal bleeding and/or a spinal injury. Bleeding requires a faster evac, spinal requires no movement. With both equally likely, either choice is equally correct in my opinion. However, given that death is worse than the potential spinal injury, I'd give a slight nod to getting the victim out faster.

[ratagonia]

seems like we have wandered quite a bit from the original accident topic here. I think the question should be not what kind of a system did this victim set up to do this rap with, but rather where were the other 3 people on this trip, and how is it that no one else took the time to look at or check the rap set up before the first person clipped in and took off. Unless she was the leader on this trip, and that seems unlikely given what transpired, it was incumbent for at least one other person to see what was set up, how, and to double check it before anyone clipped in. i understand that the group was somewhat stressed by what happened earlier in the canyon, but to me it seems like that should have been all the more reason for care, vigilence, and double checking each other and each set up. The group/team concept was mentioned earlier, and repeated when it came to carrying rope- but hauling a few lbs of nylon or poly thru the canyons pales in importance with people putting their life on the line every time they clip into a rope, this is where things have to be checked and double checked before the commitment is made to step over that edge.

rick t

The physical setup of this particular rappel makes it difficult to check other people.

Tom

[canyonguru]

Didn't mean to add the rr in very. Every rappel is different and requires a different approach. The rappel might call for a double rap, or a biner block or whatever the case maybe. I stated that i like to use a double rap most of the time because that is what I'M most comfortable with. To have a large bag of tricks is great if you are proficient at each trick. I have a mid size bag of tricks but am only proficient at a few of them so i choose to use what i am the most proficient at.

What would have happened if the Guide or Leader of the group was the one who fell off of Imlay canyon leaving the two noobs up at the top to figure it out for themselves. Tom makes a great point about teaching each group member at least the basics of setting up each rap. I check myself and my group and they check me on every drop. Just like the old saying goes practice makes perfect.

There are two many ways to set up a rappel and two many different ideas and techniques out there for there to be a one right way every time. So yes saying that a biner block in this situation was wrong is not the right answer nor does saying that a double strand rap would have allowed this accident not to happen. I think i comes down to what YOU are most comfortable with and what YOU have the most training or experience with. Not what anyone else says or does.

Some like to join ropes with an EDK, some like to use a figure eight follow through. If the situation calls for an EDK then go for it. If the situation calls for a biner block than use a biner block. It is very hard for us to speculate on what happened when we were not there.

[ratagonia]

What would have happened if the Guide or Leader of the group was the one who fell off of Imlay canyon leaving the two noobs up at the top to figure it out for themselves. Tom makes a great point about teaching each group member at least the basics of setting up each rap. I check myself and my group and they check me on every drop. Just like the old saying goes practice makes perfect.


I would hope that everyone on a trip through Imlay would be capable of setting themselves up on rappel.

Not the best first canyon.

Tom

[oval]

Hehe, I see what you are saying Tom, and certainly the more practice you have with any given technique, the better you get at it.

At the same time, setting up a biner block simply has more steps, and more places to screw up. From a pure probability standpoint.

You're right, any technique that you hammer into your head should be pretty safe, and certainly it should be safer than any technique that you DONT use very much of the time. I dont think that means, however, that some techniques don't have more places to fail than others.

Just my opinions. :bandit:

[trackrunner]

I would hope that everyone on a trip through Imlay would be capable of setting themselves up on rappel.

Not the best first canyon.

Tom

agree. and I would add probably not the best to teach or practice new techniques in. better canyons for that.

(comment is general comment since the thread has changed and not commenting on this specific imlay group)

[skiclimb3287]

The physical setup of this particular rappel makes it difficult to check other people.

I find myself checking people verbally in this particular situation (well, not exactly "this", as I am not skilled enough to descend Imlay...yet). Most of my canyoneering trips involve at least 1 noob. Every noob I take along has to come and practice rappelling with me before getting into a canyon. I always teach to clip in to the anchor system with a safety tether and lock the biner, next to get on rappel and cinch up the rope until weight is on the rope and there is slack in the safety line. Once they ensure they are locked in and the rope is holding them, they can then unclip from the anchor. When in a canyon and approached with an anchor where I can not physically check each person, I will go through the list verbally with them: Are you clipped in? Is your rappel device hooked onto the rope and locking biner locked? Is your weight on the rope and not on your tether? Ok, then unclip the tether you are good to go. By assuring that each persons weight is on the rope, they are then sure (as am I) that they are clipped into the correct side of the biner block. I will do this even if we are rappelling double stranded.

[CarpeyBiggs]

and this story just keeps taking new twists... a failed natural anchor caused the first fall and broken foot. and, no permit? wow. :facepalm1:

Rangers Conduct Multiple Technical Rescues

July 17th – A group of seven canyoneers in Imlay Canyon requested help for two people who had taken separate falls. Members of the group began their descent of Imlay on July 16th. This canyon has one of the park’s more difficult canyoneering routes, with over 20 rappels, extremely cold water, and numerous potholes requiring specialized techniques for escape. As group members were completing a 10 foot rappel using a log jammed crosswise in the canyon as an anchor, the log anchor failed and the 20-year-old man who was on the rope suffered a possible lower leg fracture. The injured man was moved a short distance down canyon to a wide area and all spent the night there. In the morning, one party member stayed with the injured man while the remaining five canyoneers continued on the route, promising to send help once their trip was complete. Early in the evening of July 17th, they arrived at the last rappel 140 feet above the Zion Narrows. The first canyoneer to complete the free-hanging rappel then hurried to the Temple of Sinawava Trailhead two miles downstream to report the incident. Group members were using the carabineer block technique at the anchor, allowing party members to rappel on one strand of rope while using two strands of rope tied together to function as a pull cord. If used correctly, a carabineer and knot jam against the anchor prevents the rope from pulling through the anchor while the canyoneer is on rope. Connecting the rappel device to the correct side of the anchor is critical. The second-to-last party member to descend the last rappel attached her device on the wrong side of the anchor; when she put weight on it, she fell the entire distance into the shallow water below – a distance equivalent to 13 stories. Her life was likely saved by the friction or bunching of the rope whipping through the anchor, slowing her fall just enough at the last second. While a ranger at the trailhead was taking information concerning the initial lower leg fracture, a visitor rushed to the trailhead to report that a woman had fallen 140 feet. Rangers quickly organized a carryout via raft litter and evacuated the woman to the trailhead, arriving shortly after midnight. Her most serious injury was a shattered ankle. On the morning of July 18th, Grand Canyon National Park’s contract helicopter and short-haul team evacuated the man with the initial lower leg fracture out of the center of Imlay Canyon. The use of short haul prevented the need for a long, difficult technical rope rescue. Charges concerning the group’s wilderness permit violations are pending.

http://home.nps.gov/applications/digest/printheadline.cfm?type=Incidents&id=5780

[trackrunner]

Rangers Conduct Multiple Technical Rescues

July 17th – A group of seven canyoneers in Imlay Canyon requested help for two people who had taken separate falls. . . Charges concerning the group’s wilderness permit violations are pending.

http://home.nps.gov/applications/digest/printheadline.cfm?type=Incidents&id=5780

Did they not have a permit period or did they have one extra over the permit limit? Or was it two groups in the same drainage which is also prohibited?

[Deathcricket]

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

[Scott Card]

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.
Yep, and that, my friend, is why you never get Mystery permits. The List.......:eek2: :lol8:

[CarpeyBiggs]

Cool update Carpey! Wow!

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all... and really, imlay? not that difficult of a permit to get.

i'm sorry, the permit system sucks in zion. but poaching canyons is a load of shit, and it will ultimately negatively affect the community in general. poaching canyons is especially stupid when you need two SARs. can't play by the rules but still want someone to save you?

i just hope crap like this doesn't influence policy at other parks, namely grand canyon, where rescues are going to be exponentially more difficult, expensive, and possibly more dangerous.

[trackrunner]

I'm kinda "meh" about the permit thing though. What is it $150 fine or something? If I was here on my vacation for a once in a lifetime adventure and unable to secure permits, I would do the same thing I think.

well if you are going to poach or break permit rules/laws don't get caught AND don't cause a SAR operation. my best guess is the fine will be above $150.

because of the permit violation they could be charged the entire amount for the rescue including use of the helicopter. hopefully the injured has health insurance that covers air ambulance and doesn't require pre-approval because that will cost $$$.

even then most SAR try to avoid charging unless it was gross negligence.

[Deathcricket]

Yep, and that, my friend, is why you never get Mystery permits. The List.......:eek2: :lol8:

Best.... sentence..... eva!!!!!
:lol8::lol8::lol8::lol8:


unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all... and really, imlay? not that difficult of a permit to get.

i'm sorry, the permit system sucks in zion. but poaching canyons is a load of shit, and it will ultimately negatively affect the community in general. poaching canyons is especially stupid when you need two SARs. can't play by the rules but still want someone to save you?

i just hope crap like this doesn't influence policy at other parks, namely grand canyon, where rescues are going to be exponentially more difficult, expensive, and possibly more dangerous.

I hear ya bro, but if it's a big problem, it's the park's duty to enforce their rules. And don't tell me they are short staffed. If one ranger caught just two groups a day of 6 people 2x6x$150 = $1800/day x5x4=$36,000/month x12=$432,000/year. That could fund itself easily with just one ranger sitting on a trail. And like trackrunner said, maybe it's even more than $150 I'm just guessing really. Anyone have an actual number? I can remember a person getting fined $375 for turning 3 permitted 12 man groups into one super group in Subway, but I don't know anyone who's even been caught.

I'm seriously gonna poach Mystery one of these days though... :nod:

[Deathcricket]

Oh and side note... I did get a message from a member of the group and I think it would be ok to share, that the gal who fell is having a hard time getting over this experience. Sounds like mild psychological damage. Waking up reliving the experience or falling, cold sweats, panic attacks, stuff like that. Please keep her in your thoughts and prayers, I'm sure this is not an easy thing to get over and she needs all the help she can get.

[CarpeyBiggs]

I hear ya bro, but if it's a big problem, it's the park's duty to enforce their rules.

wtf? this coming from my libertarian friend? you are freakin' dreaming. it's the duty of the COMMUNITY to play ball, or we are just going to get further screwed in the future policy making. it's situations like these that give the whole community a black eye, and gives the impression that canyoneers will do whatever the hell they want regardless of current rules.

and mystery seriously sucks, it's not worth poaching. don't be a douche.

[Deathcricket]

wtf? this coming from my libertarian friend? you are freakin' dreaming. it's the duty of the COMMUNITY to play ball, or we are just going to get further screwed in the future policy making. it's situations like these that give the whole community a black eye, and gives the impression that canyoneers will do whatever the hell they want regardless of current rules.

and mystery seriously sucks, it's not worth poaching. don't be a douche.

Hehe, libertarian bordering on anarchist. There is zero conflict despising and perhaps bypassing stupid rules for me. "If we don't play ball the government is gonna get us in the future". Sounds like fear based decision making to me. But I digress, you are one of my heroes and I won't argue with you.
:2thumbs:

[trackrunner]

maybe it's even more than $150 I'm just guessing really. Anyone have an actual number? I can remember a person getting fined $375 for turning 3 permitted 12 man groups into one super group in Subway, but I don't know anyone who's even been caught.

Tom provides the information in this thread (http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?55508-Fine-for-exceeding-group-size-in-Zion-Canyons&p=457660&viewfull=1#post457660) (quote below) up to $500. Judge/magistrate can take it up to $1000.


The ticketing officer has quite a bit of discretion, depending on how much lip you give him. CAN fine you up to 500$, is what i have heard. I highly recommend not lying to the officer in any way. This is a MUCH greater offense and they take it quite seriously. It is also possible for the officer to ticket EVERY PERSON in your group. If you contest it and go before the magistrate in St George, my understanding is the magistrate can go as high as $ 1000.00, and 90 days in jail.

As much as I find the permit somewhat ridiculous, I recommend staying within the confines of the permit system.

Incidentally, (HI [Suri]), since the Park monitors this channel you may not want to broadcast when you are about to break the law... :nono: Premeditation, if known, would bump you up into a higher category of culpability.

:ne_nau: 'jes sayin'

Tom :moses:

[CarpeyBiggs]

i'm not saying i always agree with the rules, but anarchy isn't going to solve anything. trust me, i know how tedious the bureaucracy in these national parks can be, we've had a devil of a time trying to work with them on our latest project. i'm simply saying the ultimate path of least resistance is to demonstrate good behavior as a community. it's simple cause and effect.

you call it "fear based." i call it "reality based." that's probably a key difference between you and I... :haha:

[spinesnaper]

Tom provides the information hear up to $500. Judge/magistrate can take it up to $1000.
Yeah, $150 ticket for something like this, I don't think so. Also the Park may charge the parties with full cost of the rescue. Were these folks too busy to set up express permits or show up before the wildnerness desk closed the evening before? This type of reckless behavior unfortunately reflects very poorly on the canyoneering community as a whole.


Oh and side note... I did get a message from a member of the group and I think it would be ok to share, that the gal who fell is having a hard time getting over this experience. Sounds like mild psychological damage. Waking up reliving the experience or falling, cold sweats, panic attacks, stuff like that. Please keep her in your thoughts and prayers, I'm sure this is not an easy thing to get over and she needs all the help she can get.

This sounds like post traumatic stress disorder and there is typically nothing mild about it. Psychotherapy will be essential to deal with this situation. Falling 110 feet and fracturing your heal is terrible. Thankfully, she was not more injured. However, a shattered ankle or heel is a very difficult injury. It is probable that she will have permanent damage to her gait even with the best of surgery and all the appropriate rehabilitation. She will have a very long road to recovery and I am sure, not withstanding the poor judgement of her group, we all wish her a full, speedy, and miraculous recovery.

Take home lesson, make due haste in effecting the rescue of an injured party member but don't cut corners or relax your vigilance in getting that help, and please respect the Zion National Park permit system. You may not like it but don't create a situation where the rangers feel like they have to camp out in our canyons because we are all a bunch of goofballs that need to be protected from ourselves.

Ken

[canyonguru]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popc orn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

I acually poached Mystery Wed. I left my permit on the dash of the car.

[ghawk]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popc orn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

I acually poached Mystery Wed. I left my permit on the dash of the car.

I don't think you poached the canyon if you paid for your permit and simply left it in your car. You'd just have to get the ranger to go to the car or something. Or get the ticket canceled after or something... probably a bit of a pain but I don't see them being that unjust. maybe I'm wrong though. anybody ever have something like that happen?

[CarpeyBiggs]

unfortunately, this group of canyoneers seems to have a history of breaking permit rules or not getting them at all...

a couple of the members of the party sent me notes tonight suggesting i had completely misrepresented them on this forum. they did in fact have a permit, but they exceeded the group size. they also adamantly denied ever violating any permits in the past, and explained that some of their friends may have poached in the past, but they were not a part of this trip.

so my apologies to those involved for suggesting that they may have violated permit rules previously. i made an unfair assumption, and an incorrect one at that.

[Deathcricket]

Yeah I got the same kinda message. I am kinda stuck here, trying to not pass any info from the group that would be considered sensitive. Let's face it this is pretty much the canyoneering equivalent of a bunch of gossiping housewives. But I think by the tone and formality I can pass this one along. "once again you personally have the opportunity to do the right thing and help out" is a pretty dead giveaway. :) If I overstepped my bounds then I apologize to the group.


Dear Deathcricket:)

We actually had permits for 6 and another group of 2. Our group of six dropped to 5 when the one guy had to bring his GF at the last minute so he split from the group and picked up 2 permits of his own. I knew the canyon limit was 12.

I believe that some statements in this thread could border on being slanderous. For someone to state that I have "a history of poaching canyons" or anyone in the group. It's wrong, inaccurate, unnecessary and ON the internet for crap sake.

Because of this website I now have people contacting me to ask me which canyons I've poached and why I don't use permits. Come on.....we all know it's not fair for that sort of game to be played with someone's reputation even though you say I'm still anonymous. That's where this turns a bad trip into a bigger mess. I'm not sure why the canyoneering community gets off on attacking people...but I've seen it many times. The climbing community doesn't treat people like this.......EVER.

Good news is that once again you personally have the opportunity to do the right thing and help out.

Thanks in advance for understanding.
- Person in group -

[Deathcricket]

Replying to my own post, lol. So they did have permits for everyone, but went over the 6 person limit by having a 7 person group (2+5). I think she might be under the impression the group limit is 12 in the canyon, which is an easy mistake since most of them are and the canyon limit is 12 like she said. So it's a BS charge IMO and probably a slap on the wrist since everyone did have permits, they just formed a "supergroup" of 7 people which is forbidden. But again, how do you prove they were "together" in the canyon?

[bshwakr]

__

[CarpeyBiggs]

certainly, this member of the group can feel free to respond to this thread personally... especially if their actions are defensible. if there's nothing to hide, and you want to clear up speculation, you should just tell the story. clearly at least a few members of the group are following the discussion on here.

to suggest that the climbing community is never critical of other people is simply not true. spend some time on supertopo, gets out of hand there too. in fact most public user groups who are competing for restricted access to backcountry resources seem to be fairly critical of each other, depending on what side of the argument you are on. however, that's not to justify the speculation i made, because i may have misrepresented you, and i apologize.

also, this isn't a personal attack against one member of that group specifically, but it is a criticism of that group in general. if that offends any of them, i have to wonder why. if they didn't do anything wrong, then all they have to do is say so, and we can figure out why the park decided to state publicly that permit violations were pending.

the reason i am being critical is this... our community is often under scrutiny, by land managers, policy makers, and by each other. as a community, we are trying access a resource that is scarce by nature and heavily regulated (at least in zion, navajo lands, and grand canyon.) how we act individually has the ability to effect how each of us in the community access these resources, whether through increased regulation, fees, permits, or completely closing off canyons, like the kaibeto chapter has done.

so when someone has a high profile trip where they break the rules, it reflects poorly on the community at large. it's especially important right now because grand canyon is developing their new backcountry management plan, and deciding what role canyoneering will play. these kinds of situations do nothing to help the policy making there. grand canyon already has a history of being highly regulated when it comes to backcountry use. who knows what changes the new plan will have for canyoneers. we need to give them every reason to consider our point of view. credibility takes a big hit when people don't play by the rules.

[Deathcricket]

If your groups are all in on it, it would be very difficult to prove. But to me, you know it's breaking the rules and you have to mislead a law enforcement official. Plus, you are always going to face more scrutiny in a highly visible canyon like Mystery. What if it's two scout groups in Orderville, one with 12 people and the other with 6 and they join up? They weren't poaching, but they were exceeding group size. Where does it stop?

k

Very good point Kip. My personal opinion is that one larger group has less an impact than 2 smaller groups. And the only reason I have to even back up my opinion is rope pulls wearing against the sandstone. 1 would be better than 2. That's pretty much the only factor I can even think of. Again we are talking about adult competent canyoneers and not bored boy scouts getting away from video games for a couple hours. Of course a huge group of stupid-ass scout teenagers would factor completely different into the scenario.

But I'm sure the Zion management has some other reason for limiting the group size to 6 which I can't fathom. My only guess is so one group could not nab all the 12 tickets and screw another group out of it. Nothing to do with canyon impact or safety. Actually I just checked and looks like there are 14 reserved permits and at least 12 walk ins. So there goes that theory.....

[mdd]

I'm not sure why the canyoneering community gets off on attacking people...but I've seen it many times. The climbing community doesn't treat people like this.......EVER.

The reason is Deindividuation, and it is a well-studied psychological phenomena and is seeing even more study as our society goes ever more online.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

And climbers treat each other like that all of the time. Just go on mountain project and read any thread about stolen draws left on a route (of which there are many).

M

[canyoncaver]

Yeah, sounds like our anonymous "person on trip" doesn't have too much experience with the climbing community. It tends to be way nastier over there IMO. Canyoneers are quite civil in comparison.

[Iceaxe]

Yeah, sounds like our anonymous "person on trip" doesn't have too much experience with the climbing community. It tends to be way nastier over there IMO. Canyoneers are quite civil in comparison.

x2

Climbers can be viscous by comparison, at least the climbers outside the sports gym.

[bshwakr]

__

[tdoughty]

You want vicious? Take a look at the years long feud still underway on the 'wings of steel" climbing thread on Supertopo....In fact it gets so bad over there they have a script so you can actually filter out posts made by persistently obnoxious individuals! Bogley is tame.......

[Iceaxe]

You want vicious? Take a look at the years long feud still underway on the 'wings of steel" climbing thread on Supertopo....

Wings of Steel
1686 posts on the topic
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=72849

:roflol: :roflol: :roflol:

[tanya]

I would have wanted to be carried out by you guys right then and there and not wait.

[canyoncaver]

It doesn't matter what the patient or the rescuer "wants." In a falling accident if the responders are untrained to clear the spine or don't have gear to provide adequate spinal immobilization, then they must wait for someone to bring either the training or the gear. If a WFR or paramedic had been there, it sounds like this spine could have been cleared. With the responders' level of training, it was prudent to wait for more help. If you would like the magical power of clearing the spine, please seek WFR training as Tom suggested. I highly recommend it to anyone that goes canyoneering.

[Spidey]

bored boy scouts getting away from video games for a couple hours. Of course a huge group of stupid-ass scout teenagers would factor completely different into the scenario.

Why the hating on the Boy Scouts. I'll put me and my scouts up against any group of the same size in any canyon! The last time we did Imlay we were 10 hours from West rim trail head to temple of Sinewava, with the canyon in keeper mode.
Given where this thread has gone I won't discuss how many of us there were.:naughty:

[ratagonia]

Replying to my own post, lol. So they did have permits for everyone, but went over the 6 person limit by having a 7 person group (2+5). I think she might be under the impression the group limit is 12 in the canyon, which is an easy mistake since most of them are and the canyon limit is 12 like she said. So it's a BS charge IMO and probably a slap on the wrist since everyone did have permits, they just formed a "supergroup" of 7 people which is forbidden. But again, how do you prove they were "together" in the canyon?

BS Charge? Huh?



Group Size
Large groups increase impacts on the backcountry. Group size is limited to a maximum of 12 people sharing the same affiliation (school, club, scout troop, family, friends) in the same drainage, route, or backcountry trail on the same day. This is strictly enforced; violators will be cited. The group size limit for all canyoneering trips other than the Narrows, Left Fork, Pine Creek, Orderville, and Keyhole Canyons is six people per day.

http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/canyoneering.htm

Is any rule you find inconvenient a "BS Charge"? How about driving drunk, if you only have to go a few blocks???

But really, sounds like a whole lot of not taking responsibility for one's own actions.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Very good point Kip. My personal opinion is that one larger group has less an impact than 2 smaller groups. And the only reason I have to even back up my opinion is rope pulls wearing against the sandstone. 1 would be better than 2. That's pretty much the only factor I can even think of. Again we are talking about adult competent canyoneers and not bored boy scouts getting away from video games for a couple hours. Of course a huge group of stupid-ass scout teenagers would factor completely different into the scenario.

But I'm sure the Zion management has some other reason for limiting the group size to 6 which I can't fathom. My only guess is so one group could not nab all the 12 tickets and screw another group out of it. Nothing to do with canyon impact or safety. Actually I just checked and looks like there are 14 reserved permits and at least 12 walk ins. So there goes that theory.....

and your doctorate in Recreation Management is from where???

Physical impacts vs. group size has been studied extensively, though not in Zion. While I disagree with the current group sizes, and the way in which those group sizes were set, those are the rules. Calling BS on the rules, and following the rules are not the same thing.

The group size limits in Zion are primarily to address social encounter issues. If you have the time, you might find the reading available here:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/

entertaining. All you wanted to know about the Zion Backcountry Plan - and MORE!!!

Tom :moses:

[Deathcricket]

Why the hating on the Boy Scouts. I'll put me and my scouts up against any group of the same size in any canyon! The last time we did Imlay we were 10 hours from West rim trail head to temple of Sinewava, with the canyon in keeper mode.
Given where this thread has gone I won't discuss how many of us there were.:naughty:

Hehe perhaps bad choice of words bro (on my part). I'm sure your group is awesome but as a category I'm sure damage is more likely to be caused by a huge group of 24 teenagers rather than a group of 7 adult canyoneers. I can cite personal experience of an encounter on Pine Mountain where they were rolling massive 200 pound boulders off a ledge with no regard to the possibility of hikers below. I almost got into a fistfight with the scout leader, but realized having 24 witnesses against me probably wasn't in my best interests. :lol8:

The discussion though is about a group of 2+5 joining forces to be 1 above the max of 6. Of course Mr. Helmet Nazi is aflame with outrage and unable to see straight. Huge surprise there. But in my opinion this is a BS charge. There is still the same number of people going through the canyon, but instead of a group of 5 then a group of 2 more, it's 7 all on the same rope. Most canyons in Zion have a 12 person max, they all had permits issued, honest mistake, they get off with a warning IMO. Hopefully we learn the verdict.

[UtahAdventureGuide]

The second-to-last party member to descend the last rappel attached her device on the wrong side of the anchor;

I would like to know what the other member of the party was doing. They should have been paying attention to how the other person was rigging the rappel.

[Iceaxe]

Why the hating on the Boy Scouts. I'll put me and my scouts up against any group of the same size in any canyon!

Its not your scout troop that is the issue.... its the bottom tier scout troops.... I've noticed scout troops suffer many of the same problems that the off-road and ATV crowd have to deal with, and that is a few bad apples give everyone else a large black eye.

If you witness one poorly led or out of control scout troop you instantly forget about the other ten troops that were well behaved and doing it the right way.

[ratagonia]

The discussion though is about a group of 2+5 joining forces to be 1 above the max of 6. Of course Mr. Helmet Nazi is aflame with outrage and unable to see straight. Huge surprise there. But in my opinion this is a BS charge. There is still the same number of people going through the canyon, but instead of a group of 5 then a group of 2 more, it's 7 all on the same rope. Most canyons in Zion have a 12 person max, they all had permits issued, honest mistake, they get off with a warning IMO. Hopefully we learn the verdict.

If you do the reading, O Cricket of Death, you would discover that I took great umbrage at the Park Service's 11th hour change of Pristine Zone group size from 12 to 6.

I think you are deliberately missing the point. The Park has a rule. If the Canyoneering Community wants to be a player in the managing the park game (and we do), if we want a seat at the table, we probably need to be considered a "rule-conforming-to community" by the Park Service. Each time a GROUP gets caught breaking the rule, we, as a community, lose credence with the Park Service.

(a separate debate could ensue as to whether we have any credence in the first place - side issue!)

The group's plan changed so they chose not conform to the rules. Then they frakked up and broke TWO ankles, requiring a helicopter rescue. They were not smart enough to go out the Sneak Route, or to break their group up, or otherwise come back into conformance with the rules.

So, DC, I agree the rule is BS. But the citation is not. The rule exists. Breaking the rule, then drawing attention to yourselves by demonstrating gross incompetence yields a citation. No big surprise. Take the citation and say "thank you sir". Or go before the magistrate and argue that the rule is BS. But don't complain about the CITATION being BS. Please.

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

I'm not sure why the canyoneering community gets off on attacking people...but I've seen it many times. The climbing community doesn't treat people like this.......EVER.

Laughable. Go to the Supertopo website's forum and read the "Wings of Steel" thread, for one mild example.

Climbing community can be just as brutal.

[canyonguru]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Deathcricket]

If you do the reading, O Cricket of Death, you would discover that I took great umbrage at the Park Service's 11th hour change of Pristine Zone group size from 12 to 6.

I think you are deliberately missing the point. The Park has a rule. If the Canyoneering Community wants to be a player in the managing the park game (and we do), if we want a seat at the table, we probably need to be considered a "rule-conforming-to community" by the Park Service. Each time a GROUP gets caught breaking the rule, we, as a community, lose credence with the Park Service.

(a separate debate could ensue as to whether we have any credence in the first place - side issue!)

The group's plan changed so they chose not conform to the rules. Then they frakked up and broke TWO ankles, requiring a helicopter rescue. They were not smart enough to go out the Sneak Route, or to break their group up, or otherwise come back into conformance with the rules.

So, DC, I agree the rule is BS. But the citation is not. The rule exists. Breaking the rule, then drawing attention to yourselves by demonstrating gross incompetence yields a citation. No big surprise. Take the citation and say "thank you sir". Or go before the magistrate and argue that the rule is BS. But don't complain about the CITATION being BS. Please.

Tom :moses:

Good post! I do agree and I probably didn't explain my position well. I do agree they broke the rules, however I don't feel they blatantly broke the rules and perhaps it was just ignorance (although we know that's not an excuse). They got permits for everyone in their group and it's a simple mistake to not understand that even though they did get permits, forming a supergroup of 7 is a violation. So IMO it's a completely different scenario than me and 7 of my friends sneaking into Mystery canyon this Saturday July 30th at 7:30AM without permits. In one case you have a person trying to do the right thing and maybe misunderstanding a simple context, and on the other you have a person like me thumbing his nose at authority and perhaps getting caught in the process, or perhaps not.

Further, when the NPS reached the parties, there were two in the canyon in one section up top needing rescue, 4 in the narrows, and one at the buses having called them out. Which matches their permits exactly. If you had medical training and ran across a separate group, would you not stay with them to aid while your group then went to get help? Would you accept a fine for leaving your group in an emergency situation to aid another human being? If there are only 2 people in a group and one gets hurt, is the other person not allowed to go and get help with another group, because of a single permit? How does the NPS prove they were even all part of the same group to issue a citation? They didn't catch them "red handed". The only reason is they probably admitted it.

So yes I agree they made a mistake (another of many that day), but their intentions were to do the right thing, and as near as I can tell they did not try to decieve the NPS when push came to shove. So the charge is BS IMO. I'm not advocating breaking the rules, I just like to understand people intentions and motives in the spirit of the law. No damage was done to the canyon, no extra people went through above the canyon limit that day. And we do both agree that 7 people vs 6 isn't a huge transgression. So the only conclusion is that slapping them with a $1000 fine is purely a vindictive move to cover the huge amount of rescues this party generated.

Anyways kinda out of our hands, but I think mercy is in order for this situation. Good thing I'm not a judge, I would be too "all over the board" on my rulings. :lol8:


Edit: But yeah I think the permit system is stupid, the rules are stupid, and generally thumb my nose at authority anyways. I think we don't have any "chips" to bargain with and they (nps canyoneering rule makers) really don't care about us, they will do what they want anyways, screw NPS. So i admit I'm biased in the first place. I just think to issue a citation you have to conclusively prove a violation and that was not done in this case. The party probably admitted guilt but that could be retracted because they were under duress almost seeing their friend die, yadda yadda yadda blah blah...

[ratagonia]

Edit: But yeah I think the permit system is stupid, the rules are stupid, and generally thumb my nose at authority anyways. I think we don't have any "chips" to bargain with and they (nps canyoneering rule makers) really don't care about us, they will do what they want anyways, screw NPS. So i admit I'm biased in the first place. I just think to issue a citation you have to conclusively prove a violation and that was not done in this case. The party probably admitted guilt but that could be retracted because they were under duress almost seeing their friend die, yadda yadda yadda blah blah...

A lot to be agreed with, DC.

To issue a citation, they don't need much of anything. Very few citations are contested. And I'm kinda thinking the magistrate rules in their favor, a LOT.

I don't have a permit with me, but I think it says "don't combine groups" right on the permit, as one of the checked conditions. So, I ain't buying the "we thought we could combine into a supergroup of 7, no problem".

Please realize that the Park Service is a bureaucracy. The RULES are what count, catching people breaking the rules, making sure people know the rules, investigating people who might be breaking the rules. The goals and purposes for which the rules were created in the first place - no longer important.

Tom

p.s. I think we have beaten this one to death, CricketMaster.

[jman]

I am not advocating breaking the rules, I just like to understand people intentions and motives in the spirit of the law.



IMO it's a completely different scenario than me and 7 of my friends sneaking into Mystery canyon this Saturday July 30th at 7:30AM without permits.

Lol...ya sure you are not advocating breaking the rules?? Oh, cricket, so funny.

[Deathcricket]

To issue a citation, they don't need much of anything. Very few citations are contested. And I'm kinda thinking the magistrate rules in their favor, a LOT.

Yeah this horse was dead by page 3, hehe. I just enjoy arguing with you. Since James left I have no one to take me up on random topics.


Lol...ya sure you are not advocating breaking the rules?? Oh, cricket, so funny.

:haha: Well I was just using that as a "hypothetical" situation, ya know.




I'll have a trip report on Monday

[bshwakr]

__

[mmac]

Back to the original topic, I think DC did everything correctly considering the situation. Way to keep your cool! :cool2:

The first responder however should have stayed with the gal until park service SAR personnel arrived. It would have broken up the group, but once you start patient care, you can't stop until someone of an equal or higher level of training takes over. It's abandonment, and can be a potential legal mess. Good samaritan laws don't protect you if you leave the scene.

I'm glad to hear that everyone made it out safely! What an experience!

[Deathcricket]

The first responder however should have stayed with the gal until park service SAR personnel arrived. It would have broken up the group, but once you start patient care, you can't stop until someone of an equal or higher level of training takes over. It's abandonment, and can be a potential legal mess. Good samaritan laws don't protect you if you leave the scene.

Good post, and had not heard of this before. I don't think a person should be "required" to stay with a victim if his own life/well being is threatened. And our party cruzing down orderville had no wetsuits to brave the cold that was coming that night. And we gave our emergency blanket to her. So him sitting there with shorts and a t-shirt would not be pleasant at all in freezing cold water after dark and very dangerous for him. Yes the rescue crews did get them out of there later that night, was it 12:00AM? But we were not sure they would even get there that night to see her. All we knew was it was getting dark soon and we would be screwed. Further, we left her in good condition and good spirits, besides the extreme cold coming, there was no imminent danger to her.


I'm hoping you're wrong on that sir. :2thumbs:

[ratagonia]

Good post, and had not heard of this before. I don't think a person should be "required" to stay with a victim if his own life/well being is threatened. And our party cruzing down orderville had no wetsuits to brave the cold that was coming that night. And we gave our emergency blanket to her. So him sitting there with shorts and a t-shirt would not be pleasant at all in freezing cold water after dark and very dangerous for him. Yes the rescue crews did get them out of there later that night, was it 12:00AM? But we were not sure they would even get there that night to see her. All we knew was it was getting dark soon and we would be screwed. Further, we left her in good condition and good spirits, besides the extreme cold coming, there was no imminent danger to her.

I'm hoping you're wrong on that sir. :2thumbs:

Well, that is the general rule. Much less applicable to a WFR than an MD, though legally probably similar.

Coming from another party though, with the situation under control etc... My first choice as WFR would be to find a way to manage the situation and the various players, and stay with the victim until handoff. (But get as many of the other persons out of there, while retaining all useful resources). There was some concern about internal injuries that might suddenly cause her vitals to go south (though, as a WFR, not much you could do about it other than rescue breathing). But, that requires the other people present to allow themselves to be managed - which may not have happened in this circumstance. Unuseful people standing around until well after dark == more victims.

Tom :moses:

[middlefork]

There are few doctors or nurses out there that unless they are trained in Trama response, would not give control to the first person that came up and said "Hi I'm ...... and I have been trained in EMT, WFR, OEC, Advanced Red Cross First Aid or any other credential that gives them the feeling that you are trained to respond to emergency situations.

They just want to get away from it as soon as possible. They are not trained to deal with trauma.

Bottom line get the knowlege to deal with emergency situations and with that knowlege you can take control of the scene.

And yes people standing around doing nothing need to leave.:nod:

[spinesnaper]

There are few doctors or nurses out there that unless they are trained in Trama response, would not give control to the first person that came up and said "Hi I'm ...... and I have been trained in EMT, WFR, OEC, Advanced Red Cross First Aid or any other credential that gives them the feeling that you are trained to respond to emergency situations.

They just want to get away from it as soon as possible. They are not trained to deal with trauma.

Bottom line get the knowlege to deal with emergency situations and with that knowlege you can take control of the scene.

And yes people standing around doing nothing need to leave.:nod:

Was that a doctor bash?:numchucks: The flip side is that it is the responsibility of SAR responders to take command of the scene. Generally that also means thanking bystander rescuers for their help and then giving them permission to go unless assistance is needed. Even then, most professional first responders I have encountered would much rather have their SAR colleagues assisting them than bystanders and that includes any doctor who might be on the scene. Especially when doctors are opinionated and not so helpful. In the couple of situations I have been involved with, I stoodby until is is clear that my assistance no longer needed.

Regarding legal requirements, these vary sometwhat by State. A few States do require physicians to render emergency care to a stranger found in an emergency condition. Most states encourage but do not mandate this provision of care with Good Samaritan laws. These provide limited liability for physicians who choose to render care in these circumstances. In many cases, without the specialized supplies that a SAR Paramedic will have with them, there is often little that a responding physician can do other that providing reassurance, organizing the scene, and providing limited first aid. Most physicians I know who are active in the back country do not shy away from this sort of involvement. Still, as comforting as a neurologist who happens to be doing the narrows when you fall the bulk of the last rappel out of Imlay might be, the person you really want to see is the SAR team and all the resources they bring.

Ken

[mmac]

Here's a link (http://www.gc.maricopa.edu/emt-fsc/acrobat_files/EMT104_Course_Pack/AZ_legal_issues.pdf) to the AZ Good Samaritan law and an overview of it's implications. These laws generally vary state by state, but they tend to be pretty similar. A person acting in good faith to help out is protected from liability from harm caused by the actions or inactions of that person on scene unless they are grossly negligent.

Your personal safety is the primary concern on any emergency scene, and your welfare is more important than the patient's at the moment. It sounds kinda harsh, but the reality is that you don't want to create any additional patients. If you get hurt, you can't help anyone. It increases the level of complexity and the necessary resources required to resolve the situation.

Bystanders are some of the most valuable resources on scene. Especially in the backcountry where those precious resources are limited, individuals with medical training are particularly useful. I'm always happy to utilize people if they're knowledgeable, calm, and can follow directions. In my experience, doctors are some of the first people to step up and help in an emergency. In general though, I would rather work with an EMT, Paramedic, Flight/ER Nurse bystander because their training and experience is more relevant to the scenario at hand.

As several others have said, training is what it's all about. If you think you might want to help someone out, get the training and experience to do it effectively. CPR/First Aid is the first step, but I think that everyone who participates in activities like canyoneering should seek out WFR training. It could save somebody's life, or maybe just brighten their day. Either way, you can make a difference. :cool2:

[spinesnaper]

As several others have said, training is what it's all about. If you think you might want to help someone out, get the training and experience to do it effectively. CPR/First Aid is the first step, but I think that everyone who participates in activities like canyoneering should seek out WFR training. It could save somebody's life, or maybe just brighten their day. Either way, you can make a difference.

If you really want to make a difference, you might also consider carrying a personal locator beacon. They are not useful in very spot in the canyon but with a little sky, they are going to summon help. Not sure it would have made a bit of difference for Aron Ralston.

I find it interesting how EMT's and other field personal like to bash the usefulness of medical doctors (especially when there are no doctors around). Generally, I think this is because they have a need to feel important. However if you are a paramedic or EMT, it is the ER doc at the base who is calling the shots.

Generally, in an emergency situation the best resource will be the responding emergency personal and you will be greatful for their professionalism and training. Sure if the flight nurse is standing there you are as good as home. In the absence of these professionals on the scene, a physician on the scene of an emergency is likely to take charge. If I had a twisted ankle in the backcountry and had to choose between an EMT and an orthopedic surgeon to apply my SAM splint, boy tough call there. In general though there is seldom going to be any medical personnel around in the backcountry.

Having some first aid training is good and more training and supplies are better. However, flipping open and activating that personal locator beacon is now the best first aid supply you can carry. The one I carry only weighs 5.3 ounces (McMurdo Fast Find 210). I believe that ACR is out with one also that only weighs 4.9 ounces. Hard to go wrong with either option.

Ken

[JONBOYLEMON]

Wow, this is the energizer of threads.

[spinesnaper]

Wow, this is the energizer of threads.

When we get to 1600 posts, then we will have something.:haha::haha:

[mmac]

I find it interesting how EMT's and other field personal like to bash the usefulness of medical doctors (especially when there are no doctors around). Generally, I think this is because they have a need to feel important. However if you are a paramedic or EMT, it is the ER doc at the base who is calling the shots.

I don't mean to "bash" Doctors by any means. They are ultimately the people who are going to have the greatest ability to help a patient over the long run. My concern is that MDs are generally specialists, and there are many, many different kinds. An ortho-surgeon would be awesome to have available to assess and stabilize an ortho-wound. The understanding of a particular procedure is likely greater, but I would suggest that the effective application of the procedure wouldn't be much different if performed by an experienced prehospital provider. It's not like the surgeon could actually perform surgery in the backcountry. When someone identifies themselves as an EMT or Paramedic, I know exactly what they should be able to do. When somebody says "I'm a Doctor." You have to wonder... a Doctor of what? A urologist likely wouldn't be much help stabilizing a femur fracture. I would rather have someone trained in prehospital life support for the multi-system trauma patient (as described at the beginning of this thread) than a random MD.

I think that everyone needs to feel important. If you can't feel like you've made a difference in some way, then what's the point of doing any job? We should all appreciate the importance of everyone in the medical chain, from dispatchers to first responders, to doctors, nurses, and technicians. Everyone contributes to the outcome of a patient, and no one should be put down for trying to help.

[spinesnaper]

A urologist likely wouldn't be much help stabilizing a femur fracture. I would rather have someone trained in prehospital life support for the multi-system trauma patient (as described at the beginning of this thread) than a random MD.

That urologist will have a detailed working knowledge of fluid balance, shock management, and hypothermia, plus they tend to have a wicked sense of humor. I would be pretty happy if a urologist was on scene in a backcountry medical situation. I assisted a dermatologist reduce a dislocated shoulder in the Sierras a number of years ago. So my advice is keep an open mind on this issue. Before medical school I work as an EMT in Oakland. Sure I could bandage a wound but EMTs are not physicians.


Everyone contributes to the outcome of a patient, and no one should be put down for trying to help. This would precisely be my point. A physician backcountry traveler coming a upon a scene requiring medical assistance is not such a bad thing. It is not a substitute for the actual SAR response.

Ken

[Upstream]

I can certainly understand your desire to get the subject to safety, but I think you did the right thing. I'm a member of a SAR technical rescue team, and we would rather see injured people stay where they are to reduce the chance of further trauma, and help prevent possible injury to those who are assisting. Sometimes we can get to a subject fairly quickly by helicopter which allows us to determine the extent of any injuries and make a transport plan based on that information.
If at least one member of your group has a Personal Locator Beacon that uses NOAA SAR satellite tracking and you can get high enough for it to properly transmit, help may come much sooner. We also recommend everyone carry the ten essentials:


Navigation (map and compass)
Sun protection (sunglasses and sunscreen)
Insulation (extra clothing)
Illumination (headlamp/flashlight)
First-aid supplies
Fire (waterproof matches/lighter/candles)
Repair kit and tools
Nutrition (extra food)
Hydration (extra water)
Emergency shelter

Be safe and have fun out there!

[ratagonia]

I can certainly understand your desire to get the subject to safety, but I think you did the right thing. I'm a member of a SAR technical rescue team, and we would rather see injured people stay where they are to reduce the chance of further trauma, and help prevent possible injury to those who are assisting. Sometimes we can get to a subject fairly quickly by helicopter which allows us to determine the extent of any injuries and make a transport plan based on that information.
If at least one member of your group has a Personal Locator Beacon that uses NOAA SAR satellite tracking and you can get high enough for it to properly transmit, help may come much sooner. We also recommend everyone carry the ten essentials:


Navigation (map and compass)
Sun protection (sunglasses and sunscreen)
Insulation (extra clothing)
Illumination (headlamp/flashlight)
First-aid supplies
Fire (waterproof matches/lighter/candles)
Repair kit and tools
Nutrition (extra food)
Hydration (extra water)
Emergency shelter

Be safe and have fun out there!

Thank you, Upstream, and welcome to the group!!!

Tom

[Deathcricket]

Interesting, I actually got an update from the group about a week ago... I wasn't going to revive the thread but it seems that has happened anyways. I don't think she would mind me posting this. Wraps up the story nicely. :2thumbs:


Checking In

Hi,
Just wanted to check in to let you know that our group from Imlay is all mending well. Neither of the 2 injured people have recovered enough yet to get into a canyon but everyone is close. The gal that you guys stopped to help no longer needs a cane for walking and is back to hiking. I think her boyfriend suffered the most from the PTSD. She put her PhD program on hold for a year while she focused on her recovery.

I'm in the middle of a WFR course now...it's very intense but I'm already thankful for all that I've learned and feel like a better canyon partner. I have a heightened awareness of all that you guys did when you made the choice to help. It still means a lot. I hope to return to the favor to someone some day but have my fingers crossed that it won't be necessary.

Best Wishes and safe travels.

[ratagonia]

Interesting, I actually got an update from the group about a week ago... i don't think she would mind me posting this. Wraps up the story nicely. :2thumbs:

Thanks DC. Was there ever a report on the actual injuries? "PHD program on hold for a year" sounds a lot more serious than the broken ankle my brain remembers as the most serious injury.

Tom

[Deathcricket]

Thanks DC. Was there ever a report on the actual injuries? "PHD program on hold for a year" sounds a lot more serious than the broken ankle my brain remembers as the most serious injury.

Tom

No just a serious sprain if I recall correctly. I don't think there were any broken bones. Somewhere back in this thread is her status, but it's been a while since I posted it, not positive on that.

[ratagonia]

No just a serious sprain if I recall correctly. I don't think there were any broken bones. Somewhere back in this thread is her status, but it's been a while since I posted it, not positive on that.

It was stated as "shattered", which in not technically, a technical term, but indicates a high level of damage, that can require extensive surgery and rehab. Sounds like it did!

Fun thread! Worth reading again.

Tom :crazy: :moses:

[spinesnaper]

Thanks for the update. That was a very interesting thread. Agree with Tom, ankle sprains do not usually hold PhD candidates back for very long.

Ken

[Moose Droppings]

Thanks for the thread revival on this one.
Epic tale.
Excellent feedback.
Worth the two-hour burn at work.
Am now taking inventory on my own survival skill-set applied in the backcountry/wilderness environment and inspired to address the weak points.
Hat-tip to Deathcricket.