Mystery Conditions ?

[canyonguru]

I am coming up next week to do Mystery and was wondering if anyone has been down there recently. I know the canyon dosent change but my main concern is the Lake. Wanted to know if it is full or not, or if we are going to be playing it the mud. Thanks :stud:

[Bo_Beck]

I am coming up next week to do Mystery and was wondering if anyone has been down there recently. I know the canyon dosent change but my main concern is the Lake. Wanted to know if it is full or not, or if we are going to be playing it the mud. Thanks :stud:

Talked with a fella who stopped by the store friday and he had just returned from a hike thru Mystery. I asked the same question? He said that there was a short ankle deep wade at the lake.

[tdoughty]

Week before that there was no water in the "lake." There was indication that much of whatever bit trail had developed in the canyon below the death slopes has been washed away, and there was plenty of fresh dead-fall and rockfall, all easily navigated. And their was a good fixed sling leading out to the top of the Mystery Springs rap.

[canyonguru]

Sweet all sounds good, i was planning on fixing my own sling for the rap but if there is one already fixed that is even better. From what the news is telling me the Monsoon is going to dry up this week but then return next weekend so i hope Zion dosent get it to bad when we come up. I would hate to have to replace mystery with lets say keyhole or something because of the rain. But then again i have never been in in Zion during a good monsoon rain which could be pretty cool to see. Lots of water falls and stuff, i am a big storm junky i try to go find them when they come through vegas.

[ratagonia]

Sweet all sounds good, i was planning on fixing my own sling for the rap but if there is one already fixed that is even better. From what the news is telling me the Monsoon is going to dry up this week but then return next weekend so i hope Zion dosent get it to bad when we come up. I would hate to have to replace mystery with lets say keyhole or something because of the rain. But then again i have never been in in Zion during a good monsoon rain which could be pretty cool to see. Lots of water falls and stuff, i am a big storm junky i try to go find them when they come through vegas.

May I suggest that putting in place a RETRIEVABLE safety line is more appropriate to a wilderness setting, than leaving a fixed line of dubious attachment?

May I further suggest that placing trust in a safety line, who's attachment at the far end cannot be ascertained from the near end, is not a smart thing?

In which case, LEAVING a safety line in place is not particularly useful to smart following parties, though it may be useful to DUMB ones. If you find a "safety" line in place, please remove it.

Perhaps it is just my hemorrhoids piping up, but, it seems to me if you cannot safely stroll the sidewalk out to the anchor (3rd class at most) without a safety line, you probably should not be leading people down a technical canyon.

Tom :moses:

[Pubalz]

:popcorn:

[spinesnaper]

May I suggest that putting in place a RETRIEVABLE safety line is more appropriate to a wilderness setting, than leaving a fixed line of dubious attachment?

May I further suggest that placing trust in a safety line, who's attachment at the far end cannot be ascertained from the near end, is not a smart thing?

In which case, LEAVING a safety line in place is not particularly useful to smart following parties, though it may be useful to DUMB ones. If you find a "safety" line in place, please remove it.

Perhaps it is just my hemorrhoids piping up, but, it seems to me if you cannot safely stroll the sidewalk out to the anchor (3rd class at most) without a safety line, you probably should not be leading people down a technical canyon.

Tom :moses:

Whoa there Emperor.

First, adjust that dang inflatable donut you're sitting on. You are not actually suppose to sit on the valve-dohicky of the donut. Swig some more of that stool softer, that'll take the edge of the old hemorrhoids. Of course you feel like bitting off some noobie heads, we get that.

Can't we give that side walk above the springs a class 4 rating? After all, if you actually fell off that thing, the fall at 110 feet is going to be lethal. That's assuming you did not die first by smashing into some other rock feature. Just saying that the side walk has a high pucker factor. Of course using that criteria some of Walter's Wiggles are probably class 4.

Ken:numchucks:

[tdoughty]

Tom,
Basically agree with what you said.

When we pulled up on the slab above Mystery Springs, said sling was in place, appeared fresh, and in good condition. Surprising? (or not) since supposedly we were in the canyon the first day it was open this season. We had just caught up with the one party that was ahead of us, with their last teammate posed at the rap anchor. So the question of whether the far end was adequately attached is somewhat of a moot point since he (Rob with ZAC) assured us it was. We had planned on belaying out to the rap anchor if required (had never been there before). And we did not remove the sling, just left it in place.

Guess that's where our differences lie? I could have pulled it, but I typically only remove/replace slings when they are in bad shape, and attempt to leave the environment the way I encounter it. If we start down the road of removing slings or anchors that we individually feel are excessive, we can quickly get to a point where people are adding and removing bolts, etc. Ugly, ugly situation. It was my personal decision to use the fixed sling and to leave it in place and I accept responsiblity for my action/inaction. My appologes if I've offended anyone's sensibilites, but even in hindsight, and with the jaundiced eye of an experienced wilderness explorer, I do not think I'd change my behavior.

Dumb is as Dumb does.

[ratagonia]

Tom,
Basically agree with what you said.

When we pulled up on the slab above Mystery Springs, said sling was in place, appeared fresh, and in good condition. Surprising? (or not) since supposedly we were in the canyon the first day it was open this season. We had just caught up with the one party that was ahead of us, with their last teammate posed at the rap anchor. So the question of whether the far end was adequately attached is somewhat of a moot point since he (Rob with ZAC) assured us it was. We had planned on belaying out to the rap anchor if required (had never been there before). And we did not remove the sling, just left it in place.

Guess that's where our differences lie? I could have pulled it, but I typically only remove/replace slings when they are in bad shape, and attempt to leave the environment the way I encounter it. If we start down the road of removing slings or anchors that we individually feel are excessive, we can quickly get to a point where people are adding and removing bolts, etc. Ugly, ugly situation. It was my personal decision to use the fixed sling and to leave it in place and I accept responsiblity for my action/inaction. My appologes if I've offended anyone's sensibilites, but even in hindsight, and with the jaundiced eye of an experienced wilderness explorer, I do not think I'd change my behavior.

Dumb is as Dumb does.

and then again (donut working this morning, moved the valve, thanks Ken) maybe Mystery is an exception. When the sling is in good shape, and nicely rigged, I tend to leave it in place too, though I shake my head and roll my eyes...

Tom :moses:

[canyonguru]

When i said fixed ropes i ment also to fix them form my group and them retrieve them after everyone has gone down the rap. As for being a noob i have been doing this for 13 years, but i will also so say that i am not even close to the caliber of canyoneer status as most of you on bogley. Sorry for hiting a nerve Tom didn't intend it that way, i figure if there are a fixed set of slings out to the end i will obviously check to see if they are attatch and yes i do agree the stroll out to the rap station is quite simple. The first time i did mystery i was 15 but then again a lot of things i did when i was 15 seemed a lot easier than crap i am doing now.

[spinesnaper]

That sling is really more a psychological crutch. As Tom points out, it is pretty generous on the side walk. Also, if you actually fell off the side walk tethered to a sling tied between the two bolts, you would be generating some significant forces on the two anchors. I am open to being corrected here but my understanding is that stressing the two bolts in this fashion places profoundly more force on the bolts than if there was significant slack in the sling and it was then weighted. I am going to guess that very few actually stress this "safety" line in this fashion. As noted, that ledge is exposed but relatively wide.

Ken

[ratagonia]

That sling is really more a psychological crutch. As Tom points out, it is pretty generous on the side walk. Also, if you actually fell off the side walk tethered to a sling tied between the two bolts, you would be generating some significant forces on the two anchors. I am open to being corrected here but my understanding is that stressing the two bolts in this fashion places profoundly more force on the bolts than if there was significant slack in the sling and it was then weighted. I am going to guess that very few actually stress this "safety" line in this fashion. As noted, that ledge is exposed but relatively wide.

Ken

Rumors of high forces generated in these circumstances are somewhat over-stated. The "theory" assumes static means static, which is not true. There is a lot of stretch in the system.

Plus, someone would actually need to fall over the edge, which seems unlikely. Even if someone passed out, only a few pounds of force would be required to keep them ON the sidewalk, in which case their weight would be primarily supported by the sidewalk beneath them.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

Whoa there Emperor.

First, adjust that dang inflatable donut you're sitting on. You are not actually suppose to sit on the valve-dohicky of the donut. Swig some more of that stool softer, that'll take the edge of the old hemorrhoids. Of course you feel like bitting off some noobie heads, we get that.

That's some funny stuff, right there.

I think a belay makes sense, rather than a fixed sling/rope?

Pretty exposed for just a sidewalk...I need to do it again some day...hmm...

[spinesnaper]

Rumors of high forces generated in these circumstances are somewhat over-stated. The "theory" assumes static means static, which is not true. There is a lot of stretch in the system.

Plus, someone would actually need to fall over the edge, which seems unlikely. Even if someone passed out, only a few pounds of force would be required to keep them ON the sidewalk, in which case their weight would be primarily supported by the sidewalk beneath them.

Tom

Tom

It must be the mathematician in me. Nothing like a bit of reality to mess up a perfectly good assertion.:haha:

Ken