New Rappel in Pine Creek Zion, June 13th, 2011??

[ratagonia]

Pine Creek IS pretty darn bolted up, but...

Apparently someone thought the downclimb into the first pothole, before the first rappel, was a little stiff for their taste, and installed a two-bolt anchor about 10 feet away. The bolts have been removed, and I will hit it with some epoxy putty next time I am in the area.

Tom

model courtesy Abercrombie and Fitch

[jman]

Wow, that's ridiculous.

[nonot]

Those bolts have been there for at least 2-3 years, I think. It does look like someone recently replaced the webbing to make them more obvious.

[deathtointernet]

I totally forgot about those until you mentioned it! I was through there last Wednesday and noticed the bolts, and I remember thinking... oh just like Yankee Doodle, these things are apparently breeding. Not to defend the Yankee Doodle bolts, because I don't, but by comparison these are completely nonsensical. Someone took the time to install bolts and, what, never noticed how easy it is to downclimb into shallow water just past it? I wonder how they got through the rest of the canyon... not that there's any hard climbs, but if this was necessary... Thanks for taking care of these!

[ratagonia]

Those bolts have been there for at least 2-3 years, I think. It does look like someone recently replaced the webbing to make them more obvious.

I had never noticed them before, but I don't do Pine Creek all that often. My friends did Pine Creek in the morning also and did not notice them.

T

[nelsonccc]

I had never noticed them before, but I don't do Pine Creek all that often. My friends did Pine Creek in the morning also and did not notice them.

T

I've never seen them before but maybe they could have been placed during high water?

[Deathcricket]

I've never seen them before but maybe they could have been placed during high water?

That was my thought exactly. That first scramble up to the perch is a little sketchy, even by my reckless standards. Or maybe it's just cause I always have sand on my boots, but it never feels comfortable to me. But with water flowing over that rock I would probably pee my pants.

[deathtointernet]

Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing them before. But I suppose in high water you could have used them to do the entire first rappel from there? Still doesn't seem to make much sense, correct me if I'm visualizing this wrong, but wouldn't that require you to drop directly down the watercourse of the first pothole instead of scrambling to the downclimb on the left? I would think that if you needed a new anchor because of swift water the best place to place the bolts would be on the rock above the downclimb into the pothole. Tom feel free to tell me that I've got the setup all wrong... I didn't really stop to examine the whole situation.

[ratagonia]

Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember seeing them before. But I suppose in high water you could have used them to do the entire first rappel from there? Still doesn't seem to make much sense, correct me if I'm visualizing this wrong, but wouldn't that require you to drop directly down the watercourse of the first pothole instead of scrambling to the downclimb on the left? I would think that if you needed a new anchor because of swift water the best place to place the bolts would be on the rock above the downclimb into the pothole. Tom feel free to tell me that I've got the setup all wrong... I didn't really stop to examine the whole situation.

Since I live to fulfill people's requests: Death to Internet, you've got the setup all wrong!

Well, actually, DTI, seems like you've got it right.

I cannot make much sense of these bolts. I think they replace the cairn anchor which has been there for the last couple of years, for the pre-first rappel drop into the pothole. I cannot imagine these bolts would be any help for high-water. And they are placed in a very whacky position, as there would be a much better position for the rap into the pothole like - above the entry into the pothole, rather than 10 feet back.

So let's just consider they were put in by someone who had little to no clue.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I hiked to the first rappel anchor (at least within close sight of it) in early May, and, didn't see those bolts. I would have given strong thought to headin' back to the car for a wrench if I had.

Nutty.

Edit to add: thanks for the clean up, Tom, oh keeper of things in Zion(s).

[ratagonia]

I hiked to the first rappel anchor (at least within close sight of it) in early May, and, didn't see those bolts. I would have given strong thought to headin' back to the car for a wrench if I had.

Nutty.

Edit to add: thanks for the clean up, Tom, oh keeper of things in Zion(s).

Thanks. :stud:

I think without webbing on them, you would never think to look for bolts on Class 1 terrain, so many of us have passed them many times.

T

[jhillock]

Thanks for the clean up.

[ghawk]

Thanks for the clean up.

:2thumbs: Yeah, we went through maybe 3 weeks ago and saw that mess. Couldn't figure out what those would be useful for either. And then there were two groups in front of us... and tourists coming down to where the first rappel starts and getting in the way... and some newb in the group before us with a gps stuck on a backback mount thing off his front strap... The last rappel ended up with 4 groups all piled together. We were waiting on the group of 7-8 in front of us when my friend found an anchor off a boulder under some rocks. then another guy came through doing it without a wetsuit and with his wife who was 2 1/2 months pregnant and had a 3 mm wetsuit maybe. He set up a rappel with no webbing but just looped his rope through a hole in the log that's at the top. So there were 3 groups rappelling at once. Probably would have been a sweet picture but man that canyon was packed!! :becca: I think I'll be heading to places like the roost or escalante more often. :nod:

so what I meant to say was... thanks for cleaning that up :nod:

[ratagonia]

:2thumbs: Yeah, we went through maybe 3 weeks ago and saw that mess. Couldn't figure out what those would be useful for either. And then there were two groups in front of us... and tourists coming down to where the first rappel starts and getting in the way... and some newb in the group before us with a gps stuck on a backback mount thing off his front strap... The last rappel ended up with 4 groups all piled together. We were waiting on the group of 7-8 in front of us when my friend found an anchor off a boulder under some rocks. then another guy came through doing it without a wetsuit and with his wife who was 2 1/2 months pregnant and had a 3 mm wetsuit maybe. He set up a rappel with no webbing but just looped his rope through a hole in the log that's at the top. So there were 3 groups rappelling at once. Probably would have been a sweet picture but man that canyon was packed!! :becca: I think I'll be heading to places like the roost or escalante more often. :nod:

so what I meant to say was... thanks for cleaning that up :nod:

We did Pine Creek on Monday and only briefly saw another group at the end.

An early start or a late start tends to miss the crowds. All them people bunch themselves up in the middle of the day.

Man, it was cooooooooold!

Tom

[canyonguru]

If anyone is at all sketchy about the drop into that pothole or the reach up to the first achor they really have no business canyoneering at all. That is the most simple of entries with little kids doing it all the time. Must have been a foreigner :bootyshake:

[Scott Card]

This is how bad I am...... What anchor and what pothole? I must just blow through that first section without looking. I remember water then a little down climb/ perhaps handline (sometimes for me :mrgreen:) then an 8 foot jump (after a meat anchor rap to check depth) into a nice pool and swim out of that.... where is this anchor??? Wow, I must be totally blind. I have done that canyon a bunch of times and I must of walked past that bolted anchor I don't know how often. Hmmm.:ne_nau:

[trackrunner]

This is how bad I am...... What anchor and what pothole? I must just blow through that first section without looking. I remember water then a little down climb/ perhaps handline (sometimes for me :mrgreen:) then an 8 foot jump (after a meat anchor rap to check depth) into a nice pool and swim out of that.... where is this anchor??? Wow, I must be totally blind. I have done that canyon a bunch of times and I must of walked past that bolted anchor I don't know how often. Hmmm.:ne_nau:

look at Tom's pic. the arrow is pointing at this rappel anchor for this the first rappel.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-avNFZNGWPV0/SyKNCa-ReBI/AAAAAAAAAQU/kvfagJVSZB0/s512/bogleyfest_starfish_pine%252520%2525283%252529.JPG

[Scott Card]

Yah, that looks like the little fin that leads to a 10 foot down climb/rap into a small shallow bowl that you step up and out of. If you are rapping then you continue on into a flooded hallway that is a swimmer. Usually at the point of going into the flooded part I will take a meat anchor to rap the 8 or so feet into a swimmer to check the depth for the jumpers in the group. :haha: Is that the right point I am describing in your photo? So this now gone bolt anchor (Tom's photo) was up canyon from that? Wow. :ne_nau:

[trackrunner]

Is that the right point I am describing in your photo?

I think this is the same place. this rappel is into a bowl then you walk out of the bowl and rappel the second short drop from this anchor.

all the times I've been there the second drop is either: too shallow and must be rappelled, sometimes it's deep enough but large boulders would break your ankles/legs if you jumped, and sometimes when the conditions are right with no boulders it's deep enough to jump but only after someone rappels first to verify the depth.

I know Scott knows what he is doing but i must recomend to the noobs reading at home never jump without checking. I had a friend in college jump this without checking and he broke his ankles. the good news was his start of his tour of duty in iraq was extended by a couple months.


So this now gone bolt anchor (Tom's photo) was up canyon from that? Wow. :ne_nau:

yes

[Scott Card]

I know Scott knows what he is doing but i must recomend to the noobs reading at home never jump without checking.



Agreed. Hence the reason I stated twice I was usually the guy who rapped in to check the depth. :nod: In case I wasn't clear, please do not jump anything unless you check first. :cool2:

[Jermung]

I've heard a rumor the bolts are back. Something about a rescue over the weekend and the NPS needing to rig a haul system. This leads me to believe the bolts in question had a purpose the last time they were placed and will continue to have a purpose.

[MarmotOnARock]

Rescue? You got anymore info on that? I couldnt find anything on the interwebs.

Also I was there 6/5 and didnt see these bolts or webbing.

[tdoughty]

My small team used these new anchors to bypass two large groups on the 4th that were stalled at the normal first drop. There's a pair of holes that indicate that these new anchors have been set, removed, and replaced at least once already.

[ratagonia]

My small team used these new anchors to bypass two large groups on the 4th that were stalled at the normal first drop. There's a pair of holes that indicate that these new anchors have been set, removed, and replaced at least once already.

You mean the downclimb drop, rather than the first rappel? How do these bolts help? Don't they provide an anchor for rappelling in the same space as the "normal first drop"?

T

T

[tdoughty]

No, I mean the initial pot hole and the entire normal first rap were completed from the new anchors, totally bypassing the the normal first set of anchors. (<100')

[ratagonia]

No, I mean the initial pot hole and the entire normal first rap were completed from the new anchors, totally bypassing the the normal first set of anchors. (<100')

Wow. That seems rather... well, I guess expedient if the normal stations were loaded with noobs...

T

[tdoughty]

You can go ahead and say it as, yes, it was rather, well...Rude on our part. The 4 of us were third up, still suited from our run thru Keyhole, and the team of 5 between us and the first team of 7 said go ahead and pass. The first team had a bunch of noobs in shorts and no shirts, and it was obvious that many of their team had minimal experience. They gave us attitude, and we returned the gesture by trying to blow on by them.

In the end it didn't work out and we spent over an hour waiting for them to rap into the cathedral. While the waiting was offset by checking out the beautiful surroundings, it was really awfull to watch, and painful to listen to, such a large group of imbeciles.

We eventually were able to pass them once we got into the sun and they sat shivering and trying to warm up.

[ratagonia]

You can go ahead and say it as, yes, it was rather, well...Rude on our part. The 4 of us were third up, still suited from our run thru Keyhole, and the team of 5 between us and the first team of 7 said go ahead and pass. The first team had a bunch of noobs in shorts and no shirts, and it was obvious that many of their team had minimal experience. They gave us attitude, and we returned the gesture by trying to blow on by them.

In the end it didn't work out and we spent over an hour waiting for them to rap into the cathedral. While the waiting was offset by checking out the beautiful surroundings, it was really awful to watch, and painful to listen to, such a large group of imbeciles.

We eventually were able to pass them once we got into the sun and they sat shivering and trying to warm up.

I have no problem with a little rudeness (especially tit for tat rudeness) and that was not where I was going. It just seemed bizarre to run a rope that far and then fight for the second part of the rappel...

Another good reason to be bizarre in Pine Creek starting times. 8 am? Sweet. 5 pm - have the canyon to yourself. How about 8 am AND 5 pm, with a run through Keyhole inbetween.

Tom :moses:

[ratagonia]

You can go ahead and say it as, yes, it was rather, well...Rude on our part. The 4 of us were third up, still suited from our run thru Keyhole, and the team of 5 between us and the first team of 7 said go ahead and pass. The first team had a bunch of noobs in shorts and no shirts, and it was obvious that many of their team had minimal experience. They gave us attitude, and we returned the gesture by trying to blow on by them.

In the end it didn't work out and we spent over an hour waiting for them to rap into the cathedral. While the waiting was offset by checking out the beautiful surroundings, it was really awfull to watch, and painful to listen to, such a large group of imbeciles.

We eventually were able to pass them once we got into the sun and they sat shivering and trying to warm up.

Also, meat anchors are great for blowing by noobs - kinda blows their minds, and lets them know you know what you are doing and they don't.

T

[Brian in SLC]

Also, meat anchors are great for blowing by noobs

Or, do what my climbing partner accidently did to me...and...downclimb that first crack bit past the first regular anchor. Too funny.

Its hard to share, especially with the new crew of folk out there. The "we were here first" crew, who, even though they're super slow, and, have little in the way of a clue, don't want to facilitate your moving past them. I see it especially out climbing, but, in canyons sometimes as well.

Should be part of the permit info to allow faster groups to play through. Safely, of course.

Its a tough deal.

Given the situation, heck, I'd almost be for an alternate anchor to rap past folks on. My guess is the tree anchor is still up on the canyon right? Worth leavin' a sling on...sometimes...

[ratagonia]

Or, do what my climbing partner accidently did to me...and...downclimb that first crack bit past the first regular anchor. Too funny.

Its hard to share, especially with the new crew of folk out there. The "we were here first" crew, who, even though they're super slow, and, have little in the way of a clue, don't want to facilitate your moving past them. I see it especially out climbing, but, in canyons sometimes as well.

Should be part of the permit info to allow faster groups to play through. Safely, of course.

Its a tough deal.

Given the situation, heck, I'd almost be for an alternate anchor to rap past folks on. My guess is the tree anchor is still up on the canyon right? Worth leavin' a sling on...sometimes...

Yeah, we used something up there on this trip: http://canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0703zion/index.htm

It was further away and harder to get to than I had thought (might be easier without snow), and the rope wouldn't pull first try (thanks Jason for going back and re-rigging). But there might be a better tree further along... but... bad to be walkin' that rim with noobie folks down below, prolly lacking helmets, etc... and... and... I hear the rap off some tree is a tad more than 100 feet, so it might not work out so well if'n you don't have extra rope for the Pine Creek.

Might I suggest, in this situation, charging back to the car for another round in Keyhole, allowing the noobs to poke their way along in Pine Creek and get out of the way. Heck, try upclimbing Keyhole - I hear it's been done...

Tom :moses:

[Brian in SLC]

Might I suggest, in this situation, charging back to the car for another round in Keyhole, allowing the noobs to poke their way along in Pine Creek and get out of the way. Heck, try upclimbing Keyhole - I hear it's been done...

Sans dead tree? That might be tough...?

Hard to be patient.