Fine for exceeding group size in Zion Canyons

[ocanler]

Anybody knows what are the fines for exceeding the group size on your permit? I have a permit for 6 but we might end up being 7. I'd hate to tell the extra dude he can't go and we can't see to brake down in 2 teams. Wander if risking getting a fine is worth it
This is for Spry canyon.

[tanya]

Just claim you don't know the guy. :mrgreen:

[nelsonccc]

Anybody knows what are the fines for exceeding the group size on your permit? I have a permit for 6 but we might end up being 7. I'd hate to tell the extra dude he can't go and we can't see to brake down in 2 teams. Wander if risking getting a fine is worth it
This is for Spry canyon.

Super easy to poach spry, or so I've heard. On the exit you can clearly see the road and it's a popular canyon that will undoubtedly have others in it. Your only worries would be the start and finish at the roads. Just be stealthy, or at least that's what I've been told.....

[trackrunner]

the extra person permit price is death by unga bunga

[jman]

It's not like we would ever condone poaching or abusing the permit system...lol

But, I have heard of people getting two permits in your scenario and just "happen to meet up".

[Felicia]

Why don't you call the Backcountry desk and ask them?

[spinesnaper]

the extra person permit price is death by unga bunga

Cool, so they don't just taser you in the backcountry.:haha: I think there is a valid argument to be made for an exemption for large families with local zip codes but I get that my opinion doesn't mean anything.

Ken

[tylerhirshfeld]

I would go with what Tanya said...:haha:

[trackrunner]

people have been caught & ticketed having two permits and meeting up.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?36921-A-Zion-Permit-System-Experience

[jman]

people have been caught & ticketed having two permits and meeting up.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?36921-A-Zion-Permit-System-Experience

I was once in group many years ago who met up with our other group, and two rangers asked us for our permit in the Subway, and they didn't care. Guess it depends on the ranger you come across that day?

[tanya]

I would go with what Tanya said...:haha:

:five:




You know OC.... 7 is a big group for that canyon. You would probably have much more fun and move faster is you were in 2 groups during the technical part anyway? :popcorn:

[ratagonia]

Anybody knows what are the fines for exceeding the group size on your permit? I have a permit for 6 but we might end up being 7. I'd hate to tell the extra dude he can't go and we can't see to brake down in 2 teams. Wander if risking getting a fine is worth it
This is for Spry canyon.

The ticketing officer has quite a bit of discretion, depending on how much lip you give him. CAN fine you up to 500$, is what i have heard. I highly recommend not lying to the officer in any way. This is a MUCH greater offense and they take it quite seriously. It is also possible for the officer to ticket EVERY PERSON in your group. If you contest it and go before the magistrate in St George, my understanding is the magistrate can go as high as $ 1000.00, and 90 days in jail.

As much as I find the permit somewhat ridiculous, I recommend staying within the confines of the permit system.

Incidentally, (HI BRAD), since the Park monitors this channel you may not want to broadcast when you are about to break the law... :nono: Premeditation, if known, would bump you up into a higher category of culpability.

:ne_nau: 'jes sayin'

Tom :moses:

[accadacca]

Incidentally, (HI BRAD), since the Park monitors this channel you may not want to broadcast when you are about to break the law... :nono: Premeditation, if known, would bump you up into a higher category of culpability.
WHAT!? Can we scramble the signal? :lol8:

[ocanler]

Thanks for the info. Not worth it it seems like. We'll cross Spry off our list.

BRAD

[ilipichicuma]

Thanks for the info. Not worth it it seems like. We'll cross Spry off our list.

BRAD

Probably wise, but I'd recommend getting back there eventually. I haven't hit that canyon yet, but it looks awesome!

[jman]

Incidentally, (HI BRAD), since the Park monitors this channel you may not want to broadcast when you are about to break the law... :nono:
:ne_nau: 'jes sayin'

Tom :moses:

Dear Brad,

Would you please open the Subway soon?

Sincerely, Your NP paying Patrons.

[remoteman45]

Our 2 groups of 12 with separate permits meeting up in Keyhole cost us $125.00 plus 3 years of online permit privileges revoked for the permit holder.

[Felicia]

Our 2 groups of 12 with separate permits meeting up in Keyhole cost us $125.00 plus 3 years of online permit privileges revoked for the permit holder.

24 people fit in Keyhole! :eek2:

[Iceaxe]

Our 2 groups of 12 with separate permits meeting up in Keyhole cost us $125.00 plus 3 years of online permit privileges revoked for the permit holder.

:lol8: That's why I seldom/never put permits in my name. :2thumbs:

That and I don't care for the NPS to have the ability to track me, I'm not sure why but it bugs the crap outta me. I used to hate it when I'd show up at the permit window and they would know all about me, what car I drove, what canyons I had done, how often I did canyons. It felt like an invasion of my privacy and really bugged me.

[moab mark]

One spring I got permits to head into the furnace about 6 times. On the last visit they asked me to come back into one of their offices where they accused me of guiding without a commercial permit. Now I just guide freely but use someone else's name on the permit.:lol8:

[ratagonia]

The ticketing officer has quite a bit of discretion, depending on how much lip you give him. CAN fine you up to 500$, is what i have heard. I highly recommend not lying to the officer in any way. This is a MUCH greater offense and they take it quite seriously. It is also possible for the officer to ticket EVERY PERSON in your group. If you contest it and go before the magistrate in St George, my understanding is the magistrate can go as high as $ 1000.00, and 90 days in jail.

As much as I find the permit somewhat ridiculous, I recommend staying within the confines of the permit system.

Incidentally, (HI BRAD), since the Park monitors this channel you may not want to broadcast when you are about to break the law... :nono: Premeditation, if known, would bump you up into a higher category of culpability.

:ne_nau: 'jes sayin'

Tom :moses:

Latest news is that Brad has moved up to a park in Alaska, and Suri now monitors Bogley.

Hi Suri !!!


"As much as I find the permit somewhat ridiculous, I recommend staying within the confines of the permit system."

So yes, I can see, Suri, where you could read-in some abetting of permit-breaking in the statement about not broadcasting your intentions in advance, but I think that abetting is pretty much negated by this statement.

So, no, I do not support the permit system, but I also do not support breaking the rules. They are rules we all have to live with.

Tom

[Scott Card]

:roflol: Hi Suri. Scott Card from Mapleton checking in. Can you please take me off your list so I can get a lottery Subway permit again? Thanks in advance. By the way, I am almost ready to forgive the rangers for giving me a bunch of hassle at the exit of the Subway a couple of years ago. Getting me off the list would go a long way in helping me forgive you people. Thanks a bunch in advance. Did I mention your uniforms are really nice?

Sincerely yours, Scott Card

[Sombeech]

.....helping me forgive you people.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "YOU PEOPLE"?

[Iceaxe]

Sorry Suri... I'm not impressed with the Zion rangers.

For example, you guys lurk but don't at least have the courtesy of introducing yourself?

At least the rangers for Arches and Capitol Reef have introduced themselves and informed us they monitor the forum. They also provided Bogley management with contact information in case we had any specific questions or concerns. Heck, some of the monitoring rangers will even answer the occasional question regarding their National Park.

FWIW: If I'm ranking National Park Rangers I'm putting Arches at the top of my list. So far... Those guys have done a great job with interacting and working as a partner with the canyoneering community. :2thumbs: